Memo to the Progressive Whites - Africans have minds !

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AfroHealer
Memo to the Progressive Whites - Africans have minds !

 

AfroHealer

After the resent discussion of the so-called "Segragated schools" [url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=38&t=000610]h...

And the majority of the posters, ignoring the crux of what Afroentricity is about, but instead insisting on sticking to their own preconceived racist notions of Afrocentricity.

Makes me wonder. What is it about having a school system that will provide a nurturing place for all that is so offensive?

Apparently the fact that over 40% of the kids are getting pushed out of school. Is not enough for some of you.

Its important to note that referring to them as "drop outs", is a way of blaming the victim.

If your schools are not nurturing and safe, then they have failed.

The parents of the kids who see their youths futures, been destroyed by an oppressive & eurocentric school system. Have the right, withing the charter of rights and freedoms, to ensure that their kids are not abused.

Ask yourselves why you feel so strongly about continuing the system of abuse, which the African parents have tried to reform for 100's of years.

There comes a time, when we need to take responsibility for our kids. There is the famous African proverb "it takes a village to raise a child".

If the village your child is refuses to reform, then parent have the right and sacred responsibility to move their kids to a more respectful and nurturing village.

The Eurocentric racist white school system has decided to abuse our kids, instead of educating them.

Some of our leaders, have decided to create a nurturing space for all kids. This is not about race, if you think its about race you have lost your damm mind.

Africa is a very diverse place, with multiple languages, cultures and skin tones. There are Africans of Jewish, Arabic, European, Asian, South Pacific, Carib & indigenouse African heritage. Just in Nigeria alone where I grew up, we have over 300 distinct indigenous languages & culture.

We have had long histories of functioning multicultural societies for thousands of years, before this recent failed colonial experiment.

The first universities and organised educational system on this planet were in Africa.

The oldest university know to mankind, was in Timbuktu, which is in present day Mali, West-Africa. Our traditional institutions were based on the teaching of our ancestors, which taught us that we are all one.

The eurocentric, colonial ancestors, have taught you segregation.

It is the mental mastubation of white supremacy and Eurocentricity, that causes some to be blind to the truths.

Even when someone like me provides insight into the plans for Afrocentric Education.

So heads up.

We have Minds. We know how to think, and just we are concerned for the well being of our kids.

Learn to loose your colonial tendencies. of thinking that you know what is best for us. The over 400yrs of abuse, is proof that the colonial system is not working for us.

May the truth set you free,

[ 05 February 2008: Message edited by: AfroHealer ]

AfroHealer

I thought i should repost this here, maybe someone will actually read it this time.

quote:

I think it is important to know what you are talking about , b4 it is dismissed.

SO let me help to shed some light. The proposed Afrocentric schools, are not setup to segregate, but to better prepare youth for the real world.

Something that the western education system, has failed to do. Considering the mass exodus of our kids of African and Native heritage, from the current racist and "eurocentric" schools.

Here is a an except from an article on Afrocentiricy that will help to clear up some racist misconceptions.

quote: "Afrocentricity as a Quest for Cultural Unity: Reading Diop in English"

For the past few years, I have enjoyed reading and teaching the work of Cheikh Anta Diop. His work was first called to my attention about ten years ago, and I have gradually read the books that constitute his translated works in English: The African Origin of Civilization, Black Africa, Precolonial Black Africa, The Cultural Unity of Black Africa, Civilization or Barbarism, and Van Sertima's edition of Great African Thinkers. Each of these books is a remarkable revelation itself, but taken together, they present a kind of stellar constellation in contemporary scholarship. If it was Asante who brought us the word Afrocentrism, then it must have been Diop who, before the word, brought us the light.

But first, why would a white scholar take interest in Afrocentricity? Well, the first dictum of philosophy is to know yourself, and Afrocentricity helps me to know myself.

The Journal of Religious Thought, in its 50th anniversary issue, has defined Afrocentricity as an "affirming mode of racial pluralism" (Cain Hope Felder, p. 5). Thus, "the central concern of Afrocentricity is to advance the position of African people in the world by affirming their identity and contributions, and by unmasking the biases and limitations of Western culture" (Cheryl J. Sanders, p. 11).

The goal is not to replace "white" history with "black" history, or "white" mathematics with "black" mathematics, but rather to promote a more plausible view of the arts, humanities, social sciences, and physical sciences as products not of white culture only, but of human culture, more broadly considered and valued than white elitist intellectuals would traditionally allow. Thus, Afrocentric scholars espouse a much more inclusive valuation of human diversity, rejecting the exclusive, imperialistic, and dehumanizing aspects of Eurocentric claims to universalism in cultural and intellectual life. (Sanders, p. 12)

Afrocentricity is the idea that Africa and persons of African descent must be seen as proactive subjects within history, rather than as passive objects of Western history. Afrocentricity means reestablishing Africa and its descendants as centers of value, without in any way demeaning other people and their historic contribution to world civilization. (Felder, p. 47)

Although these definitions accurately represent Afrocentricity's pre-occupation with black history and culture, even with affirming black identities and contributions, it is a mistake to reason that Afrocentricity should hold no interest for white folks. As the above definitions make clear, Afrocentricity provides a fresh perspective on humanity in general, especially in a cultural milieu where the term "humanity in general" tends to refer to white folks.

from [url=http://pages.prodigy.net/gmoses/moweb/unity.htm]http://pages.prodigy.net...

May the Truth Set you Free, Lord know the lies are holding us in bondage.


Maysie Maysie's picture

Thank you for this, AfroHealer. Thank you very much.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Well, from my perspective, its really a slippery slope, and when you look at the big picture this ends up hurting everyone. Sure, study after study shows that young girls perform better in girls only classes, and even schools. Are you going to recommend that black only schools be also segregated along gender lines? I have been told the same about young black childrent as well.

But, the problems that underly these problems are much deeper than the school system, and for the apparent gain, there is a greater loss. Ultimately this is right wing politics dressed up as liberal ideals. Chopping up and downsizing are the real objective here, and along with seperated schools, we are looking at privatized schools, weaker unions, not to mention fostering a bad scene where the racial identity of children is the most important personal identifier of who they are.

Furthermore, it will stream children, and ghettoize them.

This is a case of the problem of the individual need, coming up against the greater good.

What is needed is more people of colour operating as teachers in the school system, as well as better anti-racism education all around, and a curriculum that more fairly represents the diverse ethinc and cultural backgrounds of the inmates in Canadian schools.

"Inmates"? Did I say inmates? Well, I guess that tells you all you need to know about how I feel about schools in general.

[ 05 February 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

Unionist

quote:


Originally posted by AfroHealer:
[b]And the majority of the posters, ignoring the crux of what Afroentricity is about, but instead insisting on sticking to their own preconceived racist notions of Afrocentricity.[/b]

Have another look at that thread. No one even mentioned the word "Afrocentric" except you, with only one exception, when I asked:

quote:

How will Afrocentric school(s) help to combat racism in the current public school system?

And received a condescending response.

Several posters, me included, were and are concerned about the notion of separate schools, irrespective of the course content. You wanted to talk about the course content, but I don't really see who else did.

So, I think you should be more circumspect before accusing people here of having "preconceived racist notions of Afrocentricity".

I've been reading the materials you suggested, because I knew nothing about this concept and movement. Thank you for pointing me in the right direction.

Slumberjack

quote:


Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]Well, from my perspective, its really a slippery slope.....What is needed is more people of colour operating as teachers in the school system, as well as better anti-racism education all around, and a curriculum that more fairly represents the diverse ethinc and cultural backgrounds of the inmates in Canadian schools.
[ 05 February 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ][/b]

Ahh the slippery slope, if they get it, then everybody wants it. I think that drastic times call for drastic measures. Ideas on how to set about addressing the problems are not the exclusive domain of the current establishment. As far as what is needed, the people calling for this would seem to be in a much better position to determine their own needs, having experienced the failure of the current system.

Slumberjack

quote:


Originally posted by Cueball:
[b] Furthermore, it will stream children, and ghettoize them......What is needed is....a curriculum that more fairly represents the diverse ethinc and cultural backgrounds of the inmates in Canadian schools. "Inmates"? Did I say inmates? Well, I guess that tells you all you need to know about how I feel about schools in general.[ 05 February 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ][/b]

Do you not see the serious negative perceptions that are inherent in what you have said here? Inmates? Ghettos? Do you not see the faults of how you are looking at this issue? It seems that the need is more urgent than we could imagine.

[ 05 February 2008: Message edited by: Slumberjack ]

AfroHealer

quote:


Originally posted by unionist:
[b]
So, I think you should be more circumspect before accusing people here of having "preconceived racist notions of Afrocentricity".

I've been reading the materials you suggested, because I knew nothing about this concept and movement. Thank you for pointing me in the right direction.[/b]


The new so called " black focused" school is built around concepts of Afrocentricity. and is being proposed to provide an Afrocentric education in Ontario. It is the media and the rest of the so-called white establishment who are calling it a "race based school".

The proponent never wanted a race based school, but an Afrocentric school.

I'm surprised that you & others did not bother to find out what was being proposed by the Afro-Canadian community in Ontario.

Its not my fault that you are ignorant of what we want.

Maybe you should learn to listen or read what Afrocentric proponents of the school are planing.

Unionist

quote:


Originally posted by AfroHealer:
[b]
The proponent never wanted a race based school, but an Afrocentric school.[/b]

Once again, Afrohealer: I don't really care that much what the focus of the separate school is intended to be. I don't favour separate schools.

You may not like my opinion, but please attack my real opinion.

If Afrocentricity is a necessary and important and valid approach to education, include it in the public school curriculum. No separate buildings.

Cueball Cueball's picture

quote:


Originally posted by Slumberjack:
[b]

Do you not see the serious negative perceptions that are inherent in what you have said here? Inmates? Ghettos? Do you not see the faults of how you are looking at this issue? It seems that the need is more urgent than we could imagine.

[ 05 February 2008: Message edited by: Slumberjack ][/b]


Listen. My Girlfriend works in a Scarborough school. 90 percent of the staff are white, something she is accutely aware of. 70% of the children are people of colour.

The reality is that this imbalance has never been addressed. Claiming that the school system as it is reflects what can be achieved by a system which is properly integrated, and gives perference to hiring teachers who more accurately represent the population of the schools, and then comparing that to what can be achieved when segregaring the learning process is patently fraudulent.

The reality is that the school system, and its curriculim are defined by, and taught by the entrenched power of the white anglo-Saxons, and the system has never been properly integrated through progressive hiring policies.

Furthermore, much of the data supporting the segregation of schools comes from the United States, which is an entirely different kettle of fish, however many problems their are in Canadian schools.

[ 05 February 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

AfroHealer

quote:


Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]
Furthermore, it will stream children, and ghettoize them.

This is a case of the problem of the individual need, coming up against the greater good.

[ 05 February 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ][/b]


Hmmm .. You seem to be describing the existing racist school system, which streamline and ghettorises our kids.

SO instead of your knee jerk reaction, why dont you try this, go actualy educate yourself about he issues affecting our youth, and also about the solutions.

There are numerouse Afrocentric schools. They have a history of being overwhelmingly successful. If you don't know about them, google is your friend.

We don't need any more colonial experiments, with our kids lives.

We owe it to them, to provide them what what we know, with ought a shadow of a doubt works.

Slumberjack

quote:


Originally posted by Cueball:
[b] The reality is that the school system, and its curriculim are defined by, and taught by the entrenched power of the white anglo-Saxons, and the system has never been properly integrated through progressive hiring policies.
[ 05 February 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ][/b]

What is your timeline as to how much longer they should wait?

Cueball Cueball's picture

Again, the issue is the degradation of the school system as a whole, the working conditions of those who work there, and the removal of the responsibility to provide a balanced education from the domain of what the dominant society is responsible for, as a whole.

That has nothing to do with wether or not the schools themselves, can be succesful. I have read some of this material before, and it does not just apply to people of African heritage. It also applies to young girls and women, who also perform better in learning environments devided upon gender lines.

That does not mean we should return to having schools seperated by gender. What is needed there is a curriculum that is pro-women, and reinforces their abilities, and does not stream them into traditional passive rolls.

The reality is that the schools have never been integrated at the institutional level.

[ 05 February 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

Cueball Cueball's picture

quote:


Originally posted by Slumberjack:
[b]

What is your timeline as to how much longer they should wait?[/b]


Why don't you ask yourself that question, and then say what am I doing to make it happen? Since the system you are complaining about doesn't actually even exist. Schools are not integrated at the staffing and curricular level.

[ 05 February 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

Unionist

Folks, this is thread drift. There's always room for a continuation of the "schools" thread, after the last one was closed for length. I thought Afrohealer wanted to raise a different perspective, based on the thread topic.

ETA: Cueball, for your info, here are some of the previous and some still-open threads:

[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=38&t=000610]S... schools[/url]

[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=38&t=000612]"Little Rock Nine" 50th anniversary - struggle against school segregation[/url]

[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=002062]To... approves black-focused school II[/url]

[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=002061]To... Approves Black-Focused Schools[/url]

[ 05 February 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

AfroHealer

quote:


Originally posted by unionist:
[b]

Once again, Afrohealer: I don't really care that much what the focus of the separate school is intended to be. I don't favour separate schools.

[/b]


I don't favour racist and whitesupremacist schools.

SO when the schools stop being racist, we will be happy to send our kids there. Until then we will continue the quest to provide a school system that respects all of humanity.

That unfortunately is a fact that you choose to be ignorant about.

It amazing how easily it is for white people, to accept attempts to model school system after anything, but African principles.

Maybe you should go clean out your colonial mentality.

We (African Societies) have a long proud history of providing nurturing schools for multi-cultural societies. We were after all the ones, who taught the ancient Greeks about civilization, philosophy and science.

Unfortunately the mono-cultural colonial bastards, in their infinite racist stupor, did not realise that we were multicutural. Maybe because to them, we all looked alike.

I got a news flash for you, our universe does not revolve around white peoples wishes.

So we collectively don't really give a damm what you think about our proposed solutions, to save the lives of our kids.

We will respectfully exercise our democratic right to ensure that our kids are not abused by the school system. If and when the school system learns to be respectful and nurturing we will be happy to teach the rest of the wider colonial western society how to have a truly inclusive school system.

In the meantime, we shall create a space, that everyones kids will be welcome to come to.

The universe does not revolve around white people.

Last time i checked, since we have minds, maybe we should try to talk about the thoughts and wishes of Africans for a change.

Or is the threat that we might actually have brilliant ideas, too earth shattering & mind blowing for some peoples white supremacist tendencies?

[ 05 February 2008: Message edited by: AfroHealer ]

Cueball Cueball's picture

Well personally I would create an entirely new model of schooling, anyway. But that is just me.

johnpauljones

I was talking to a trustee yesterday at a starbucks. we were in line together.

I asked the trustee about the money required and well let's assume that the board can find the money to create the school and run the other pilot projects. I say lets assume because their is a bigger issue in my mind.

I asked a question and got an interesting response. I asked if the teachers and administrators of the Africentric school were going to be white, African-Canadian or who ever was available to transfer to a new school.

I was told that it would be a mix. Further the TDSB was not going to take all of the African-Canadian teachers from across the board to fill one school.

So this leads me to ask a question maybe it is naive but stil -- what good is it if white males for example are teaching at the Africentric school?

If one of the problems identified is that teachers currently do not understand the kids and can't relate to them via curriculum that deals with a culture then how does this change?

To help those who have dropped out or are on the verge of dropping out we need an africentric curriculum which I am told will help. But the Royal Commission on Education called for more African-Canadian teachers that was in 1992? If their is not the critical mass of African-Canadian teachers today does this solve the problem?

Cueball Cueball's picture

Well, when the issue of school segregation and school bussing was hot in the 60's in the US, Hanna Arendy made the point that what was needed was "desegrgation of the communities".

The fundamental flaws lie outside of the schools themselves, and in the society as a whole, the curriculum that is taught, the manner of teaching, and entrenched power of the dominant society. The schools perforce, really only emulate that system.

Unionist

quote:


Originally posted by AfroHealer:
[b]
Maybe you should go clean out yoru colonial mentality. [/b]

It was "cleaned out" for me when Hitler and his accomplices murdered all the members of my family except for two.

My opposition to separate schools is based on my opposition to racism, fascism, colonialism, imperialism, and white supremacy.

I respect your different view, and I will learn from you and try to dispel my ignorance about Afrocentric philosophy. But I don't have to agree with you about separate schools. It won't happen.

quote:

[b]I got a news flash for you, our universe does not revolve around white peoples wishes.

So we collectively dont really give a damm what you think about our proposed solutions, to save the lives of our kids. [/b]


I don't know what colour your skin is, and you don't know what colour my skin is.

I don't care, but you do.

Good luck achieving your goals without caring about what "white people" think.

[ 05 February 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

Maysie Maysie's picture

Hi everyone! This is the moderator. Unlike the other threads on this topic, this thread is in the anti-racism forum. Guess what that means?

I've been mostly quiet about this issue because I've felt that the opinions expressed thus far, with some rare exceptions, have come from intellectual places of "once one group asks, will they all? etc" and "what, we're going to have schools for every [i]minority[/i] group that asks?" and "how will this benefit the public school system at large?".

For the love of cripes, enough!

Black parents, educators and activists have been arguing for DECADES about high drop out/attrition rates, also known as "pushed out" rates of Black students. The rates are appalling. What substantial changes have happened in 40, 50 years? At the curriculum level? At the teacher recruitment level? At the anti-racism training level? At the administrative level? At the board level?

Sweet Fuck All.

This "school" will likely consist of less than 100 students and will likely be housed within the physical building of a "regular" public school. City School, Oasis, Ursula Franklin, are all examples of alternative-type schools that exist in the TDSB already (that's the public system folks!), all of them housed within a larger school. Maybe Oasis was above a store on Bloor Street at one point, I'm not sure about that.

The multiple needs for this school, specifically this school, has already been said and I won't repeat all that here. No, not a school for Chinese kids, or for South Asian kids. Communities of colour don't experience racism in the same ways. Nor is this plan about removing [i]every[/i] Black student into a black-focussed school. Nor is this school only for Black students!

I will ask and challenge all of you who object to this school: where was your, or the mainstream's, objection to the Pink Triangle School when it began over 10 years ago? Or Hayden Park, the all-girls high school that was in Toronto for many years (I'm not sure if it's still open now)? If you personally object to those schools, that's lovely for you, so please imagine why the difference in the public's response, given that Black students attended both of those schools.

Could it possibly be that attendees of both those schools are seen as "victims" of violence and marginalization and Black students are seen as perpetrators?

Or could it be that challenging the Western model, and highlighting its inherent racism, built from the ground up, is never something the PTB want to hear? This is a system that doesn't work for Black students, and has marginalized them, leaving a big chunk of an entire population (for generations) with less of an opportunity to graduate from high school! This is a huge outrage! And it's been going on for decades with no substantial changes in the system.

Yes, of course I support changing the entire system for everyone, god I would dance in the streets if there was no more racism in any Toronto classroom, ever again. But how much longer should Black parents wait for this to happen? No longer. It's an imperfect solution, and it may very well be used as an excuse for the main public system to not make any further changes, which is the one red flag I have about the plan. But this is not enough, not nearly enough of a reason to not support this plan.

Unionist

quote:


Originally posted by bigcitygal:
[b]Hi everyone! This is the moderator. Unlike the other threads on this topic, this thread is in the anti-racism forum. Guess what that means?[/b]

If participation in this thread, or this forum, requires agreement with a separate black-focused school, please say so, so that I can leave now.

If I got that wrong, then with respect bcg, I'm not sure why you invoked your moderator status as an intro to giving your opinion on the topic.

johnpauljones

BCG I do support the plan. But I refuse to be happy about a plan that is being set up to fail. We need change not failure.

While this has been talked about and pleaded for over 40 years the TDSB and its precurser boards never cared.

Now they are trying to make a politically expedient decision on an issue that at best deserves a perfect solution at worst a working solution.

Failure is not an option. The kids deserve better.

ETA and when Stephanie is against an idea she has wanted since she became a trustee I worry about the chosen path.

[ 05 February 2008: Message edited by: johnpauljones ]

Cueball Cueball's picture

quote:


Originally posted by bigcitygal:
[b] I will ask and challenge all of you who object to this school: where was your, or the mainstream's, objection to the Pink Triangle School when it began over 10 years ago? Or Hayden Park, [i]the all-girls high school that was in Toronto for many years (I'm not sure if it's still open now)?[/i] If you personally object to those schools, that's lovely for you, so please imagine why the difference in the public's response, given that Black students attended both of those schools.[/b]

I specifically addressed the problem of all girls schools, and made the same objection. I don't really understand the response of "the public." I don't even know them, most of them.

This arguement: "how long are they going to have to wait" is merely rhetorical. As I have been pointing out, the school system itself, and its curriculum has never been integrated, on any level, nor is the system free of racial bias.

The idea that creating seperate black focussed classrooms and schools is going to elminate the racial bias from the school system is merely wishful thinking. The bias will merely manifest itself in new ways, that is all, because it will still be a by-product of a racist system.

For example, I have two high schools in my neighborhood, for many years one operated more or less as a school for Asian children, the other, operated as a school mostly for white Italian and Portuguese Catholic children both were "public" schools, yet for some reason they basicly devided on racial and religious lines.

There were regular incidents of violence between the student of these schools, and this violence and competetion was expressed in the form of extreme racial animosity and "school" loyalty. Eventually a Chinese kid was killed.

So, lets remember why it was that we moved to an more integrated model of schooling in the first place, and not simply grab at the first solution that seems fitting, and has been shown to work at allieviating [b]some[/b] problems, in very specific cases, when we have the whole history of segregation in schools to look at for bad examples. Lets remember that the point was to create and environment where children of different backgrounds and cultures, and religions could get to know each other, learn from each other and become friends.

And what are we talking about? Improved academic performance judged entirely on the corrupt principles of academic performance, which are entirely expressive of the values of the dominant capitalist culture. Improved academic performance for black children who will be socially excluded, and stigmatized, and lacking direct social contact with society at large?

I would ask: Does the improved academic performance correlate with later performance in the job market? Are they more confident? Better socialized? Have less incidents per capita of mental illness and stress? In other words there are plenty of factors to consider outside of better grades.

I say: Be careful what you wish for.

[ 05 February 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

Unionist

quote:


Originally posted by bigcitygal:
[b]I will ask and challenge all of you who object to this school: where was your, or the mainstream's, objection to the Pink Triangle School when it began over 10 years ago?[/b]

Never heard of it. What is it?

quote:

[b]Or Hayden Park, the all-girls high school that was in Toronto for many years (I'm not sure if it's still open now)?[/b]

Never heard of it, but now that I have, I [b]condemn[/b] any attempt to segregate males and females in a public school system in Canada.

Catholic public schools have been around for a long time - that's a bigger elephant in the room than your two examples - and I condemn the notion of a public school in Canada having a religious designation of any kind.

Hope I've answered your questions.

adam stratton

quote:


If Afrocentricity is a necessary and important and valid approach to education, include it in the public school curriculum. No separate buildings. -unionist

unionist, we have separate buildings for Catholic schools and so far there has been no blood in the streets because of it. Catholics and non-Catholics work together, skate together, attend the local recreation centre together.

What is good for the gander should be good for the goose.

If you ask me, I support any group who wants to set up a school on any ground, colour, religion, sexual orientation, including schools for the left-handed, the right-side hair parting folk etc..

We will dismantle such schools once our anti-racism "education" that we have been hailing for more than 50 years has shown efficiency and results.

The status quo is serving the majority and letting down minorities and I am very surprised how many leftists are defending it here.

As long as anti-racism (check out its level of seriousness, its budget, its human resources etc..) remains a joke, we are not on sturdy ground opposing minorities' initiatives such as Africentric schools in separate buildings. For this is tantamount to perpetuating racism and oppression.

To Johnpauljones:

quote:

when Stephanie is against an idea she has wanted since she became a trustee I worry about the chosen path. -Johnpauljones

Stephanie is now part of the establishment. She has to toe the line. Some "adjustments" were due, if you know what I mean!

[ 05 February 2008: Message edited by: adam stratton ]

N.R.KISSED

quote:


Well personally I would create an entirely new model of schooling, anyway. But that is just me.

To my understanding Afrocentric education is an entirely different model of education, one that focuses more on community and connection than individual performance, conformity and shaming/marginalizing of difference and that is part of the reason a separate space is needed. Some people might appreciate this if they would get beyond their misconstrued conception of segregation.

Cueball Cueball's picture

quote:


Originally posted by adam stratton:
[b]
unionist, we have separate buildings for Catholic schools and so far there has been no blood in the streets because of it. Catholics and non-Catholics work together, skate together, attend the local recreation centre together. [/b]

That is interesting. I just finished relating a story about a Catholic white kid killing a Chinese kid, as part of the gang war that errupted between a primarily Catholic public school and a Chinese and Asian public school.

But have it your way. Everyone is happy happy happy, and no one is ever racist. [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

[ 05 February 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

Cueball Cueball's picture

I see this part, but then there is this:

quote:

But, the problems that underly these problems are much deeper than the school system, and for the apparent gain, there is a greater loss. [b]Ultimately this is right wing politics dressed up as liberal ideals. [/b]

Because of this:

quote:

The idea that creating seperate black focussed classrooms and schools is going to elminate the racial bias from the school system is merely wishful thinking. [b]The bias will merely manifest itself in new ways, that is all, because it will still be a by-product of a racist system.[/b]

It will be about getting better "objective" performance, above all, measured mind you on the guidlines the present school system inherited from Mike Harris.

There will be no interesting "experiments" or new models of education, outside of having all the black kids in one room together.

I personally think the whole process of jailing children for 8 hours a day, so that their parents can run on the hamster mill for $8 an hour should be put to an end. But maybe that is just me.

[ 05 February 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

Unionist

quote:


Originally posted by N.R.KISSED:
[b]To my understanding Afrocentric education is an entirely different model of education, one that focuses more on community and connection than individual performance, conformity and shaming/marginalizing of difference and that is part of the reason a separate space is needed. Some people might appreciate this if they would get beyond their misconstrued conception of segregation.[/b]

If it's a good model, it should be implemented in public schools. Non-African-ancestry kids don't need models based on "individual performance, conformity and shaming/marginalizing of difference" any more than black kids do.

Unionist

quote:


Originally posted by adam stratton:
[b]unionist, we have separate buildings for Catholic schools and so far there has been no blood in the streets because of it. Catholics and non-Catholics work together, skate together, attend the local recreation centre together.[/b]

Why do Catholics need separate schools? What do they do there anyway?

quote:

[b]The status quo is serving the majority and letting down minorities and I am very surprised how many leftists are defending it here.[/b]

Maybe it means all these leftists are just raving racists and white supremacists (the strange kind of white supremacists who absolutely want the black kids and their own white kids to be together in all of life's activities).

Or maybe it means they think your solution is the wrong one.

[ 05 February 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

Cueball Cueball's picture

There will be statistical improvements in "performance" however, mostly likely because there will be less teachers of non-African heritage, conciously and subconciously undermining their students because of their latent (and sometimes blatant) racial biases, and because they will be learning content which is more directly relatable to their own cultural history, taught by teachers who are more capable of communicating to their students because they will have more common understandings because they will be more likely to come from the same community. Also, as with all experimental school systems, the schools will find they have a really excelent cadre of teachers very committed to the project who will our-perform their more work-a-day counterparts.

It will no doubt be superior for the students as individuals, in terms of improving their performance, but this will likely have little real impact on their long term prospects in society at large because they will still be black. It is even possible to imagine that it will hamper the prospects of some students in the long term because they will have not evolved appropriate social counter-measures for dealing with systemic racism. They might not even be able to identify it, since they will have experienced less of it.

The school adminstrators will not be so interested in these later outcome parameters however, since their performance and their funding will be entirely based upon getting good results that can be measured "objectively".

[ 05 February 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

Cueball Cueball's picture

Anyway! Thanks all, its been fun chatting again.

jeff house

And, as we all know, there is no such thing as "objectivity", so we can all just say whatever we want, without fear of contradiction.

Alternatively, the objective measurement required would include eventual success in the overall society, and not be constrained by any need to focus on short-term results.

Absent those, I prefer universal social programmes to ethnically-segregated ones. I think they promise greater social success for minorities, and greater understanding of minorities by the dominant culture. When it comes to the education of youth this is particularly important, because they have minds, too.

adam stratton

quote:


Maybe it means all these leftists are just raving racists and white supremacists (the strange kind of white supremacists who absolutely want the black kids and their own white kids to be together in all of life's activities). -unionist

Since you chose the path of extrapolating, let me accompy you with: ..So that the white kid feels better, perceived as achiever while the black kid keeps being perceived as a "not material for academia."

I did not suggest white supremacism amongst leftists, but I do suggest detachement from the issue, lack of empaphy because they never walked in a black peson or other visible minority's.

[ 05 February 2008: Message edited by: adam stratton ]

Cueball Cueball's picture

quote:


Originally posted by jeff house:
[b]And, as we all know, there is no such thing as "objectivity", so we can all just say whatever we want, without fear of contradiction.[/b]

This is certainly true of you.

But, when I say "objective" what I mean is a specifically rigid set of standardized grading, (without nuance, or subjective input from teachers based in their intuative understandings of a childs specific capabilities) that orginates with the Mike Harris goverment. It is a formula report card filled out on an Excel type MS product, and comes complete with stock phrases that a teacher [i]must[/i] use when evaluating a childs performance.

You are thinking that objectivity should be provided by Bill Gates via the offices of Mike HArris? Is that the kind of "objectivity" you are talking about?

This sounds to you like the kind of individualized, and person specific, kind of "objectivity" that is capable of reporting faithfully the performance of students from a variety of heritages, ethnicities, and religious background?

To me it sounds like just the kind of thing loaded with all kinds of bias that tends to advantage those who are of the dominant culture, and fully aware of its norms, by applying those standard universally without regard to subjective nuance and diversity.

In FACT it was intended to precisely define a rigid standard, set by the dominant culture, so that [i]school performance[/i] could be judged and evaluated based on a rigid common norm, not to be used as a tool to highlight and encourage divesity or express a teachers subjective experience and knowledge of the individual student. It is a standard for rating schools, and teachers, not academic performance of students.

Because it is actually a standard for rating schools and teachers, and not students, it must be completely standardized, so that it provides useful comparative results, so that they can say, the students in this school are not performing as well as the students in this school.

Any and all schools in Ontario are rated by this system, and thus the success of this project will be rated on precisely the same guidlines as any other school. Therefore, it will be incumbent upon school adminstrators to ensure that their student perform well within those guidelines, complete with their inherent cultural biases.

Never mind the students the thing is barely ESL legible, so in many cases immigrant parents can't even read it.

[ 05 February 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

Unionist

quote:


Originally posted by adam stratton:
[b]I did not suggest white supremacism amongst leftists, but I do suggest detachement from the issue, lack of empaphy because they never walked in a black peson or other visible minority's.
[/b]

To repeat my question: Why do Catholics need separate schools? What do they teach there anyway?

Do they teach kids that it's better for Catholics to marry Catholics (for instance)?

Your answers will help me better understand your statement that you support any group of any kind that wants to establish separate schools on any basis.

adam stratton

unionist,

I guess you have not read what I said -many times in various threads.

I am for the dismantlement of the Catholic system, whether in its own building or within the public system.

For you to tave the same stand as the hypcrite Dalton McGuinty is astonishing. Wake up, man [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Unionist

quote:


Originally posted by adam stratton:
[b]I guess you have not read what I said -many times in various threads.

I am for the dismantlement of the Catholic system, whether in its own building or within the public system.[/b]


Gee, I guess I got confused when you wrote this:

quote:

If you ask me, I support any group who wants to set up a school on any ground, colour, religion, sexual orientation, including schools for the left-handed, the right-side hair parting folk etc..

Decide which is the real adam stratton, then post again.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

It's a good question, I think, whether Black students would benefit more from attending individual Afrocentric schools or from all schools becoming more inclusive in their education. It's why this discussion is interesting.

It gets less interesting when slippery slope arguments are used that reduce the argument for separate schools to equivalency with any other identifiable group you care to mention. It's offensive to the fact that Black North Americans have a shared history, culture and community in ways different from privileged white groups. Such an argument also represents a reductive strawman and lacks critical rigour.

I agree that the idea is problematic, or at least touchy, as the Catholic separate school board analogy (though, I hope we can also agree, the situation is not identical) demonstrates. It is not segregation [i]per se[/i], but it does risk isolationism. And of course, as unionist points out, there is the matter that students who do not attend Afrocentric schools would also greatly benefit from a less hegemonic education.

My position as a non-Black lover of education: we should applaud grassroots attempts at correcting evident imbalances in the education system, in the same way that we should stop telling Afghanistan how to treat their women, opium crops and democracy.

1234567

Where I grew up we had one hostel for Catholic kids and one hostel for Anglican kids but we all went to the same school. If one of us went into the yard of the other religion's space we got the crap beat out of us. The only place that was safe was the school where we were all equal.

When the Armed Forces left the town and were not there to insist that the education standards stay high, the school passed people and graduated them without some of them even knowing how to read. This of course meant that those who wanted university or college had to go south only to go through "learning" disability tests etc. until they finally figured out that the Aboriginals were not stupid, they just hadn't been taught.

One of the things my father always told me was to learn to live in the world as it is but also not to forget where I come from. It is a white man's world and it will be for a long time and I just don't see how segregation is going to prepare anyone for living in that world.

I don't think the answer is segregation. I think the answer is smaller schools with diversity as the goal with cultural activities and celebrations.

Unionist

quote:


Originally posted by Catchfire:
[b]It's a good question, I think, whether Black students would benefit more from attending individual Afrocentric schools or from all schools becoming more inclusive in their education. It's why this discussion is interesting.[/b]

It's a question that Jews have faced over the centuries in a slightly different context.

Would Jews benefit more by becoming full and equal citizens of the societies they live in - or by moving to Judeocentric neighbourhoods and (ultimately) a Judeocentric country?

I've resolved that question in my own mind, and I like to be consistent.

AfroHealer

Let me help to enlighten the various closed minded and racist ideas, that.

The idea that kids can only blossom if they live in a white supremacist school system, has been proven to be a failed experiment.

The kids of Africans who move here at the age of 12 or older, do amazingly well compared to the kids who have been in the Canadian school system all their lives.

There are multiple communities in the US, which keep their kids grounded in Afrocentric traditions, language and culture till at least the age of 12.

The community of North Preston, In NovaScotia, has had some outstanding results from their Afrocentric curriculum. You are free to go educate yourself about what is working for our youth.

Then ask yourself why you think its ok to ensure that white kids succeed, but not ok to ensure that African kids succeed.

I grew up in the west coast of Africa. The fact that I did not grow up thinking that white supremacy was normal, has greatly helped me in my ability to cope with Canadian society.

The Nigerian and Ghanaian professionals who go to South-Africa to work, demand to be treated as human beings in South-Africa and are treated as such . Some of the black south-Africans are learning from other west-Africans, that we can be treated with respect, if we don't settle for inhumane treatment.

There are lots of benefits to learning and growing up in a community, that values you as a human being.

Since its not your kids that are getting abused by the system and getting "pushed out" in record numbers. You might want to curtail your colonial tendencies, to profess to know what is best for us.

Like the topic says. We do have minds.

For the record it is racist to assume that a teacher is innately capable or incapable of teaching in an Afrocentric nature, just because of the colour of their skin. Afrocentricity teaches that were are all brothers and sisters, one blood, one love, one humanity. Its a shame that your education, has not taught you that.

Any teacher selected to teach in an Afrocentric, school would and should be required to demonstrate that they will treat all the kids as valuable human beings. I don't think that is too much to ask.

Unfortunately in the current school system is not in any hurry to end the collective abuse of our kids.

If you want to ask question, after doing your homework, i will be more than happy to answer.

If you just want to practice your right to be ignorant, i don't have time for you.

But i have all the time in the world, for those who respect our minds enough, to actually ponder the merit of our collective solutions, to the crisis that is affecting our youth.

And some people still wonder, why i say its sometimes easier to have conversations about race with openly & self identifying racist.

The great Afrocentric Poet, Musician and Activist s Fela Kuti said "opposite people, will reveal themselves" .

You can claim to be anti-racist all you want, but the words that you are writing reveal yourselves.

[ 05 February 2008: Message edited by: AfroHealer ]

johnpauljones

Afro-Healer here is a major question. If the curriculum is not being changed at all. The province of ontario curriculum will not be changed one iota. How will this work?

TDSB can change how it is taught but the curriculum used can not change since it is designed by the province.

adam stratton

quote:


Decide which Adam Stratton and post again -unionist

You (deliberately?) suppressed the rest of my statement, unionist! here it is:

"[b]We will dismantle such schools once our anti-racism "education" that we have been hailing for more than 50 years has shown efficiency and results[/b]]".

What Daltion McGuinty is saying is that a system for Cathoics (whites) we should maintain, but we should oppose any others.

And unionist and al. say "Amen!"

What is good for the gander should be good for the goose.. until we have a society that -at least relatively- treats all as equals.

[ 05 February 2008: Message edited by: adam stratton ]

N.R.KISSED

quote:


If it's a good model, it should be implemented in public schools. Non-African-ancestry kids don't need models based on "individual performance, conformity and shaming/marginalizing of difference" any more than black kids do.

I agree let's make the entire system Afrocentric, maybe we could start with one school first.

Unionist

quote:


Originally posted by AfroHealer:
[b]And some people still wonder, why i say its sometimes easier to have conversations about race with openly & self identifying racist.[/b]

I have no doubt at all that it's easier.

Unionist

quote:


Originally posted by adam stratton:
[b]

You (deliberately?) suppressed the rest of my statement, unionist! here it is:

"[b]We will dismantle such schools once our anti-racism "education" that we have been hailing for more than 50 years has shown efficiency and results[/b]]". [/b]


Yeah - you want separate schools until public schools are fixed. I got that. I oppose that. What's your problem?

quote:

[b]What Daltion McGuinty is saying is that a system for Cathoics (whites) we should maintain, but we should oppose any others. [/b]

Yeah, and I say (and have said non-stop since this debate began) that the Catholics should be sent packing without a red cent - and that McGuinty and Hampton were [b][i]cowards and hypocrites[/i][/b] for refusing to take that stand while denying funding to other religions.

Do some more reading of other people's views before you mischaracterize them, please.

So let me ask again - do you support cutting off the Catholics [b][i]NOW[/i][/b], or only after "our anti-racism education ... has shown efficiency and results"?

Unionist

quote:


Originally posted by N.R.KISSED:
[b]

I agree let's make the entire system Afrocentric, maybe we could start with one school first.[/b]


I have no problem with that suggestion - except the "one-school" part, because that school would inevitably be segregated.

From the reading I've done, I think a five-year pilot project whereby (say) all public schools in Ontario are provided with an Afrocentric curriculum sounds like an excellent concept. As I've said, school is for basic literacy and numeracy and linguistic skills - and learning to live with peers. The rest is largely forgettable (and certainly forgotten) bullshit. A humanistic holistic anti-racist program such as an Afrocentric one might actually change my mind about the value of elementary and high-school education.

It will be a tough sell, but I will support it.

Indiana Jones

quote:


Originally posted by unionist:
[b]
Would Jews benefit more by becoming full and equal citizens of the societies they live in - or by moving to Judeocentric neighbourhoods and (ultimately) a Judeocentric country?
[/b]

Unionist, that's an individual choice that needs to be made by each individual Jew according to their own needs and desires jsut like black individuals are batter able to decide for themselves how to live and how to raise and educate their children.

What works for you may not work for me and vice versa. The best situation for one black child may not be best for another black child. That's why I'm glad to see choices exist.

And as you alluded to, many Jews DID grow up in homogeneous neighbourhoods and attend "segregated" schools and many of them have gone off to very successful careers in all sorts of areas. Being ina homogeneous environment as a child is not an indication that you'll forever be able to adapt to the world around you.

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