Memo to the Progressive Whites - Africans have minds !

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jeff house

quote:


And as you alluded to, many Jews DID grow up in homogeneous neighbourhoods and attend "segregated" schools and many of them have gone off to very successful careers in all sorts of areas.

But we at babble almost unanimously opposed funding of these schools from the public purse.

Why was that?

Pogo Pogo's picture

In our district we have a montesori elementary school. Sometimes a teaching concept is so all-encompassing that it requires its own facility.

Indiana Jones

quote:


Originally posted by jeff house:
[b]
But we at babble almost unanimously opposed funding of these schools from the public purse.

Why was that?[/b]


I don't know. I don't have an automatic objection to funding going to such schools or to a black-focused school or a native school or a gay school or a Ukrainian school.

I guess I'm jsut not very confident that a single system could possibly be the best fit for every single student out there. Some have different needs, abilities, interests, etc. and I'd prefer to empower parents to do what's in their childrens best interests than any sort of take-it-or-leave approach which makes other schools only accessible to the wealthy.

But this and your response, I think, were a digression from the main point I was making which is that the fact that someone attends a 'segregated' school or lives in a 'segregated' neighbourhood is not indicative of whether they will be able to 'integrate' into a diverse society, if they so choose. As I've mentioned, I attended 'segregated' schools (that my parents paid for) and fail to see any harm done to me, nor to the many other people I know who attended such schools. I guess I'm jsut wondering what sort of harm or damage people anticipate for the students of this school on the basis of their having attended a black-focused school.

1234567

And there are French schools where your child can only attend if ONE of his/her parents speak French fluently.

Slumberjack

quote:


Originally posted by jeff house:
[b]

But we at babble almost unanimously opposed funding of these schools from the public purse.

Why was that?[/b]


Maybe babblers are more inclined to be drawn towards the togetherness concept. I don't believe there is any subliminal racism going on, just perhaps a strong believe that people together can overcome the serious institutional flaws of an education system handed down through the generations from colonial times. Trouble is, not one size or situation fits all. The thrust of any change or revision should be focused where the need is most immediate, by people who know what they are talking about.

Unionist

quote:


Originally posted by Pogo:
[b]In our district we have a montesori elementary school. Sometimes a teaching concept is so all-encompassing that it requires its own facility.[/b]

Is it a public school?

If the teaching concept is useful, why is the rest of the student population being deprived of it?

Unionist

quote:


Originally posted by 1234567:
[b]And there are French schools where your child can only attend if ONE of his/her parents speak French fluently.[/b]

Where is that?

jeff house

quote:


I'd prefer to empower parents to do what's in their childrens best interests than any sort of take-it-or-leave approach which makes other schools only accessible to the wealthy.


So, if someone wants "white-focussed schools:" then you are okay with that, and will provide public funding, because they are "parents" and you want to "empower" them.

1234567

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by 1234567:
And there are French schools where your child can only attend if ONE of his/her parents speak French fluently.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Where is that?

In BC and I just found out that they have the same kind of school here in the NWT.

Indiana Jones

quote:


Originally posted by unionist:
[b]
Is it a public school?

If the teaching concept is useful, why is the rest of the student population being deprived of it?[/b]


Because what's useful to one student may not be useful to another.

People have different strenghts and weaknesses. They have different learning styles and abilities. They have different interests and goals. Treating everyone the same sounds nice, but it's bad policy if we're not actually the same.

AfroHealer

quote:


Originally posted by jeff house:
[b]

So, if someone wants "white-focussed schools:" then you are okay with that, and will provide public funding, because they are "parents" and you want to "empower" them.[/b]


Just incase you missed it Jeff. We already have a white focused schools.

Indiana Jones

quote:


Originally posted by jeff house:
[b]
So, if someone wants "white-focussed schools:" then you are okay with that, and will provide public funding, because they are "parents" and you want to "empower" them.[/b]

I'm sure someone would jump in to say that most of the schools that currently exist in Ontario are already "white-focused" or at least focused on the history, culture and literature of white people of Western european descent.

Indiana Jones

And AfroHealer beat me by 5 seconds....

Unionist

quote:


Originally posted by jeff house:
[b]

So, if someone wants "white-focussed schools:" then you are okay with that, and will provide public funding, because they are "parents" and you want to "empower" them.[/b]


And furthermore, what's this about:

quote:

Indiana Jones:[b] I'd prefer to empower parents to do what's in their childrens best interests[/b]

I thought we built societies to look after children [b][i]despite[/i][/b] what their parents wanted. That's why we jail the parents when they don't send their kids to school, or feed them crap till they get sick, or use incantations instead of taking them to the E.R. when they get sick, or feed alcohol to "their" children...

Save us from parents who judge their children's "best" interests. I'll trust the State (capital S) every time on that one.

ElizaQ ElizaQ's picture

I will freely admit that when I first heard of this I had a gut reaction and my immediate thoughts went to the whole notion of segregated schools and US history...blah blah. So 'no no' this can't be right.
Then I took a step back and took a closer look and what people were saying about...namely searching for the people who are actually proposing it and listened.
For me it brought up a lot of introspection on culture, race, racism, identity and yes my own thinking and unconscious conditioning, our education system and on and on.
I thunk a lot.
For me personally I came to the conclusion that the main reason I didn't like the idea is because I didn't like to admit to myself that a collective vision of fostering a society thats equal for all people wasn't working...as perhaps I was hoping that by now it should be...because hey in general we at least recognize more now then in the past that racism and ethnocentric thought is bad and we're moving on and dealing with it. Right? We're better now right?
Damn...looks like that maybe we're not, in this instance.
For me it came down to that I don't like the idea because I don't like the idea thats it's needed, because what is occuring now isn't working and that for me wasn't a good enough reason, or even valid reason to oppose it.
Beyond recognizing that the current system should change..which some posters have been pointing out has been apparent for years and not much has happened to change it...here is another potential solution created by the people actually experiencing the problems. Key point to me (how would I really know?) ...and as Afro -healer has stated..the people involved do have minds. I don't doubt that in creating this solution that pretty much every potential problems that have been stated by posters here...or other opponents elsewhere...haven't been considered. Nor do I think and perhaps Afro-healer can confirm or probably has confirmed already that just because they don't see these potentials as reasons not to take this route means that they're dismissing them outright and not even thinking about them -- Just that when weighed in the whole picture they're not seen the same way as people on the outside see them.

Also possibly this is a sort of kick in the pants that the main stream needs to open their eyes a bit more and maybe as generalized whole we can learn something. In looking deeper into all of the issues I don't think anymore that it is a bad thing or something that is going to be overally destructive to the whole (a meme which seems to pervade some of the discourse on this topic). In fact I now feel that overall it could lead to a bettering of the whole in a the long term.

Slumberjack

quote:


Originally posted by jeff house:
[b]

So, if someone wants "white-focussed schools:" then you are okay with that, and will provide public funding, because they are "parents" and you want to "empower" them.[/b]


Come on now. If significant percentages of entire generations of 'whites' were being lost, and it was determined it was the educational system that was failing them, it would be a national crisis wouldn't you think? There's no comparison that can be made along those lines.

AfroHealer

quote:


Originally posted by 1234567:
[b]quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by 1234567:
And there are French schools where your child can only attend if ONE of his/her parents speak French fluently.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Where is that?

In BC and I just found out that they have the same kind of school here in the NWT.[/b]


Same thing in all of Atlantic Canada. We have separate French School boards, paid for by the public funds.

Somehow its not ok to preserve any heritage in this country but Anglo or French.

Where is the uproar from the so called progressives, about the damages that wil happen to kids who are "segregated" in french schools?

How about the segreagation that happens in schoosl that teach forieng languages. Yeah wake up, English is a forieng language.

Why is there no interest in making sure that all kids learn the languages and culture of the land that we are occupying?

Why is it import to maintain english & french heritage. We even have laws that ensure that the colonial languages are recognized as official languages.
Why no indigenous languages in the so-called human rights respecting state?

Hmm .. some of us are just asking to be giving the same right, to bring up our kids in the traditions that we see fit. With ought the abuse.

Slumberjack

quote:


Originally posted by ElizaQ:
[b]In fact I now feel that overall it could lead to a bettering of the whole in a the long term.[/b]

One convert at a time. A successful thread indeed.

Fidel

quote:


Originally posted by 1234567:
[b]And there are French schools where your child can only attend if ONE of his/her parents speak French fluently.[/b]

And where is that?

My nephew attends Catholic French immersion, and neither one of his parents speaks French.

Indiana Jones

quote:


Originally posted by unionist:
[b]
I thought we built societies to look after children [b][i]despite[/i][/b] what their parents wanted. That's why we jail the parents when they don't send their kids to school, or feed them crap till they get sick, or use incantations instead of taking them to the E.R. when they get sick, or feed alcohol to "their" children...
[/b]

Those are acts of abuse and neglect. Are you really comparing the decision to send your kids to a culturally focused school to feeding them alcohol?

Further, all of the activities you mentioned are against the law. it's not jsut that feeding alcohol to your kids isn't publically funded. It's illegal. Do you think sending your kids to a "segregated" school should be illegal? You'd close down existing private schools? I mean, if you want to stop John Tory's proposal and the TDSB proposal on teh grounds that tehy're actually harmful, then surely all those people harming their kids in private institutions need to be stopped too. When society deems something harmful - say, heroin - it's banned for everyone, not jsut not given public funding.

So, clarify, unionist - do you want to ban private schools altogehter? Do you think parents whos end their kids to them are bad parents?

Fidel

quote:


Originally posted by unionist:
[b]

I thought we built societies to look after children [b][i]despite[/i][/b] what their parents wanted. That's why we jail the parents when they don't send their kids to school, or feed them crap till they get sick, or use incantations instead of taking them to the E.R. when they get sick, or feed alcohol to "their" children....[/b]


In Ontario we pay a 1.3 million adults anywhere less that $10 dollars an hour, and then we wonder why in hell they can't pay the rent AND feed the kids.

If they can't manage, then their kids are taken away from them, and taxpayers subsidize foster strangers to do the job. The whole thing is old line party legacy, and it works like most of the ideology.

Unionist

quote:


Originally posted by Indiana Jones:
[b]So, clarify, unionist - do you want to ban private schools altogehter?[/b]

Haven't thought about it - but given that in general only people with money can send their kids there, I think there's a good argument to be made against two-tier education. Yeah, maybe... I'll ponder it some more. Thanks for the suggestion.

quote:

[b]Do you think parents whos end their kids to them are bad parents?[/b]

Certainly not. I just found your suggestion - that parents know what is in their children's best interest - to be amusing, if not positively social-conservative in its family-values approach.

I think (and have frequently posted) that one of most destructive phenomena in human society is the expectation that children will follow in the footsteps of their parents - especially on issues like religion and social class. I campaign against such phenomena.

Back to private schools: My reflection would be easier if all parents were forced - on pain of fine, imprisonment, etc. - to send their children to a single public school system, but had full freedom to provide extra education on the side (Sunday school, evenings, etc.), in the noble quest of turning out clones just like Mummy and Daddy.

ETA: The main reason for my hesitation on the private school issue is that as long as private schools teach a state-dictated uniform curriculum, I didn't see much urgency in shutting the things down. As I have noted before, sectarian little buildings which try to teach kids that God created the earth, or that heterosexuality is the only way to go, etc., are deprived of their right to issue school-leaving certificates here in Quйbec. That gives me some comfort that private schools can't do too much damage, although there's still the analogy with the public-private health care debate that gives me pause. Good material for another thread.

[ 05 February 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

B.L. Zeebub LLD

quote:


unionist, we have separate buildings for Catholic schools and so far there has been no blood in the streets because of it. Catholics and non-Catholics work together, skate together, attend the local recreation centre together.

Actually, the absence of Protestant/Catholic violence in Canada is a modern thing. When the notion of separate schools was first tabled, it caused a big ol' ruckus.

A sidenote - the practice of separate religious schools has been repealed in several Canadian provinces, including Quebec; the traditional hotbed of Catholic faith. The UN has recently called for changes in the system as it exists in Ontario claiming that Canada has failed to "adopt steps in order to eliminate discrimination on the basis of religion in the funding of schools in Ontario."

Pogo Pogo's picture

quote:


Originally posted by unionist:
[b]

Is it a public school?

If the teaching concept is useful, why is the rest of the student population being deprived of it?[/b]


Any child in the district can apply to get into the school. There is only limited demand though as it requires a high level of parent participation. I am sure if they had enough demand for two schools they would add another school.

Public school education does not mean to me that we have to adopt only one style of education.

martin dufresne

quote:


the practice of separate religious schools has been repealed in several Canadian provinces, including Quebec; the traditional hotbed of Catholic faith

Wish it were so m'boy... but, in fact, the Quebec government has twice already used the famed 'notwithstanding' clause to put its Catholic/Protestant school system beyond the reach of a Charter challenge. The rise of Mario Dumont - with the support of Conservative Party monies & minions - bodes very poorly for progress toward a dismantling of Xtian privileges.
No, strangely enough, as with the Ontario family mediation issue, it's still only Muslims and now Afro-Canadians that incur the 'benevolent' wrath of self-described secularists.
Apparently, some people [b]are [/b]more equal than others, and we'll make damn sure of it...

[ 05 February 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

Fidel

What would William of Orange do ?

Unionist

quote:


Originally posted by Pogo:
[b]

Any child in the district can apply to get into the school. There is only limited demand though as it requires a high level of parent participation. I am sure if they had enough demand for two schools they would add another school.

Public school education does not mean to me that we have to adopt only one style of education.[/b]


Based on your comments, I have no problem with what you are describing. No two schools are identical, and even with a common curriculum, styles and methods may vary widely just by virtue of influential staff members with strongly-held views, or demographics, etc.

As long as your Montessori school isn't geared toward a particular type of child based on race, colour, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, etc. - just having a different teaching methodology doesn't perpetuate the kind of social ills that segregation does.

AfroHealer

Please respectfuly stop derialing this thread.

This is not a thread about Quebec. or catholic schools, or private schools, or segregated schools.

This is about the failure of the so-called progressives, to acknowledged that some Africans might actually have taken the time to think about the problems that are affecting our kids, and are able to come up with solutions for our kids.

Since the existing system, is destroying our kids lives.

Fidel

quote:


Originally posted by unionist:
[b] just having a different teaching methodology doesn't perpetuate the kind of social ills that segregation does.[/b]

You're substituting segregation of the deep south for separate schools today, and the two central ideas couldn't be further apart.

What about the bus law where black kids were riding school buses and average of two or three hours a day at a time when white kids were able to walk to school?

We need more schools not fewer, and we need to ditch the old line parties perpetrating the underfunding of them.

Unionist

quote:


Originally posted by AfroHealer:
[b]This is about the failure of the so-called progressives, to acknowledged that some Africans might actually have taken the time to think about the problems that are affecting our kids, and are able to come up with solutions for our kids.[/b]

As I've said - I've read some of your material on Afrocentrism - it impresses me as providing (at least in embryonic form) a far more humane world outlook as a basis for our children's education than what is currently in place. I am impressed by the fact that it has been pioneered and elaborated by the victims of racism, rather than some paternalistic "experts". And I think, if implemented in our schools on a 5-year pilot project basis, it might provide a powerful antidote to some of the monocultural biases inherent in the current system.

So we're agreed, I guess?

AfroHealer

Union. we are in agreement.

what i'm respectfully suggesting, is that those that want to debate the merits or the Quebec school system,. or segregation or anything else, should respectfully go start their own thread.

1234567

quote:


And where is that?

My nephew attends Catholic French immersion, and neither one of his parents speaks French.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Again, in BC and now I just learned here in the NWT.

Fidel

Don't vote Liberal then.

Makwa Makwa's picture

quote:


Originally posted by AfroHealer:
[b]This is about the failure of the so-called progressives, to acknowledged that some Africans might actually have taken the time to think about the problems that are affecting our kids, and are able to come up with solutions for our kids.[/b]

While my beloved spouse, a proud African Canadian woman, does not herself support Afrocentric alternative schools, she does see the backlash against it as a system whereby white folk cannot abide seeing anyone else having anything that they might percieve as some kind of 'advantage.', or as she puts it, "wha'ever black man get, dey wan' it."

ElizaQ ElizaQ's picture

quote:


Originally posted by AfroHealer:
[b]Please respectfuly stop derialing this thread.

This is not a thread about Quebec. or catholic schools, or private schools, or segregated schools.

This is about the failure of the so-called progressives, to acknowledged that some Africans might actually have taken the time to think about the problems that are affecting our kids, and are able to come up with solutions for our kids.

Since the existing system, is destroying our kids lives.[/b]


I'm always hesitant to try to make generalizations about why people do things which is why in my previous comments I spoke from my POV and how my thought process and understanding worked around this. I try and like to think of myself as relatively progressive in thinking.
I'll make an attempt anyway because thats what this thread is about or at least add my sometimes random thoughts. Maybe it's because that in some cases even though a way of thinking might be loosely defined as progressive it still has its underlying assumptions...in my case it was the desire to promote equality between all people no matter who they are and thats been translated into well that means we should be doing the same thing and not be separating things. (in a general sense)

Over the past few years though my thinking on this has been radically challenged and I wrestle with the differences in the concepts of equality vs equity. At the same time, in general again of course 'progressive' thought also encompasses the basic principles that diversity is a good thing.
Then you get the schism or tension between how do the notions of diversity...and equality...play in RL and not just theoretically. Add in issues related systematic racism, the colonial hangover (my label)and it's engrained conscious and unconscious pathologies and whole bunch of personal psychology in relation to all these issues and maybe we can figure out whats going on.

Also 'progressives' are notorius for arguing amongst themselves as to just what exactly the right 'progressive' thought is. This isn't surprising because in and off itself 'progressive thought' is supposed to be new and different then what we have now.
I also think and I hope its not just wishful thinking on my part that in general we're hearing from more and more 'voices' that have been in the past largely marginalized and although on one hand 'progressives' tend to support and promote hearing those voices they may be saying different things then we're (as in the dominant way of thinking) used to and perhaps are still discounted to a certain extent because they don't quite fit in to some preconceived norm of what true 'progression' in a society actually is supposed to be or look like.

I dunno, thats just some random thoughts and I could be way off base.

Don't really know what to do about in the wider sense either, beyond just talking about my personal experience and understanding and listening more.

[ 05 February 2008: Message edited by: ElizaQ ]

adam stratton

I beg to differ, Afro-Healer. If you are commenting on Martin's intervention, I do not think it is derailing the issue. It is in the heart of the issue.

Martin's observation is worth repeating:

quote:

No, strangely enough, as with the Ontario family mediation issue, it's still only Muslims and now Afro-Canadians that incur the 'benevolent' wrath of self-described secularists.
Apparently, some people are more equal than others, and we'll make damn sure of it... -martin dufresne

Hypocratic Liberal regime personnified by Dalton McGuinty is being given a boost by some progressives.

As if Catholic educated and Separate Catholic Boards of education supporting McGuinty gives a rat's ass about the public system.

[ 05 February 2008: Message edited by: adam stratton ]

martin dufresne

I can't let an endorsement by "adam stratton" go by unchallenged... It was B.L.Zeebub who dragged Quebeckicking and screaming into the chat room. Also, I believe I back-edited a stronger focus on Afri-Centric schools into my comment at the precise time AfroHealer was penning his excellent protest.

Maysie Maysie's picture

Just popping in here to say hi, it's been a busy day on this thread, and I feel that everyone has done a pretty good job of keeping the discourse friendly and non-nasty. Yay! Thanks all.

I also want to thank ElizaQ for her bravery in describing and sharing her process, not an easy thing to do on babble where some of us, and I mean me as well, can be overly judging and harsh.

I think a discussion of "equality vs equity" is most deserving of its own thread, btw.

Who wants a group hug? [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

I wish I could find the link but it was mentioned briefly before. There are also pilot programs included in this initiative more fundamental to the inclusion all are seeking.

If only they made the news. I'll try to find links.

Thanks AfroHealer in troubling times.

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

Found a sort of link:

[url=http://www.nationalpost.com/news/Story.html?id=259104]Read if you must[/url]

quote:

The report also calls for a three-year pilot program to be established in three existing schools beginning in September that would include a curriculum which integrates the histories, cultures and experiences of people of African descent and other "racialized" groups.

The issue of Afrocentric schools has long been debated in Toronto, with vocal supporters and detractors. Opponents fear it will divide the school system while supporters say it will help create an environment where black students will be more supported and motivated to carry on with their studies.


This is being blatantly ignored and is where the support should lie. I applaud Ms Harrow for her work. Some kids won't be left behind. Ms Harrow, I salute you. Now, if only some whiteys might listen up. [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

There were links the other day but the damn media won't carry them for more than a week.

[img]mad.gif" border="0[/img]

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

Notice they say "African" and "other" racialized groups?

It ain't just Africans experiencing this.

Fuck, I'm mad.

Stepping away from the keyboard.

B.L. Zeebub LLD

Africans do, indeed, have minds, just like everyone else has minds. However, no one proposing a public policy should expect that their policy not be questioned, or even opposed, on [i]reasonable[/i] grounds, which is what many people - African and not African - are doing in this case. It isn't "racism" or "colonialism" to have a contrary opinion on [b]public[/b] (i.e. something that effects ALL of us) policy when that opinion is based in reason, and is not simply a dismissal of the policy because "black people are doing it."

People of many political stripes, be they white progressives, black progressives, or green retrogressives, spend a whole lot of time telling a whole lot of people how they think things ought to be done. Ironically, some of the most vociferous "tellers" on other subjects are the ones leveling ridiculous accusations of "whitey knows best" attitudes on the part of opponents of the proposed policy in this thread.

I wouldn't give a rat's ass if it were white kids being "pushed out" of schools at an alarming rate - if someone suggested the solution was to create a separate school system based along racial lines I would be against it. The logic of decentralised multiculturalism is ultimately divisive, enforcing the ideological construct of "race" rather than tearing it down. Remember, the inverse consequence of saying that "white" members of the Canadian public should have no say in "black" affairs is that "black" people should have none in "white" affairs. Even if you argue that such is already the case, there is a difference between acknowledging the reality of racism and acquiescing to an ideological position which reinforces the supposed incommensurability of cultural worldviews - in essence, the idea that we are effectively of different "minds". I just can't get behind such an idea.

How, exactly, is that racist?

[ 06 February 2008: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

adam stratton

quote:


I wish I could find the link but it was mentioned briefly before. There are also pilot programs included in this initiative more fundamental to the inclusion all are seeking.
If only they made the news. I'll try to find links. -RevolutionPlease

I have the full article, but for copyright reasons, I cannot publish it all.

quote:

[b]Basic facts on black-focused schools; How many students, where school will be, and who can attend among many questions;[/b]

[b]Daniel Girard. Toronto Star. Toronto, Ont.: Jan 31, 2008 [/b]

The public debate over the Toronto District School Board's decision to open an alternative Africentric school has been emotional.

Lost amid the passionate voices on both sides of the issue have been some of the more fundamental questions about the mechanics of how such a school would operate.

These include

Q When is the school going to open, and where?

A Plans call for the school to open in September 2009, although the two parents who pushed the issue say they still want it to begin this fall.

....

Q Will the school be open only to black students?

A No. Any student in the board who chooses to attend would be eligible. However, it's expected the majority will be black.

Given that the grade levels of the school are yet to be determined, it's unclear how many children might qualify.

....

Q Will the school have only black teachers and support staff?

A No. As with students, the school will be open to all qualified teachers and staff.

However, board officials acknowledge it likely will be a magnet for black educators and specialists in Africentric curriculum.

....
Q Is this the first alternative school in Toronto?

A No. The TDSB already has 36 of them - 15 at the elementary level, 21 in high schools - to "offer students and parents something different from mainstream schooling," says the board's website.

...

Q What else is the board doing to help make schools more relevant to black students?

A Trustees also approved three other initiatives.

Beginning in September, a pilot project will be established in three existing schools to teach subjects from an Africentric perspective.

The board also will work with York University and community agencies to establish a research centre on closing the gap between blacks and other students.

And the board will launch an action plan to help all marginalized and vulnerable students do better.

Credit: Toronto Star


[ 06 February 2008: Message edited by: adam stratton ]

saga saga's picture

quote:


Originally posted by RevolutionPlease:
[b]Found a sort of link:

[url=http://www.nationalpost.com/news/Story.html?id=259104]Read if you must[/url]

This is being blatantly ignored and is where the support should lie. I applaud Ms Harrow for her work. Some kids won't be left behind. Ms Harrow, I salute you. Now, if only some whiteys might listen up. [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] [/b]


TDSB has over 20 years of data on student retention and has known all along that there was a problem. If they have done nothing by now it is useless to hope they can turn the situation around with a few "tweaks'.
Choices are in order, imo, and outrage may have been helpful years ago, but seems misplaced to me now.

[ 06 February 2008: Message edited by: saga ]

Makwa Makwa's picture

quote:


People of many political stripes, be they white progressives, black progressives, or green retrogressives, spend a whole lot of time telling a whole lot of people how they think things ought to be done. ...
I wouldn't give a rat's ass if it were white kids being "pushed out" of schools at an alarming rate - if someone suggested the solution was to create a separate school system based along racial lines I would be against it. The logic of decentralised multiculturalism is ultimately divisive, enforcing the ideological construct of "race" rather than tearing it down. Remember, the inverse consequence of saying that "white" members of the Canadian public should have no say in "black" affairs is that "black" people should have none in "white" affairs. Even if you argue that such is already the case, there is a difference between acknowledging the reality of racism and acquiescing to an ideological position which reinforces the supposed incommensurability of cultural worldviews - in essence, the idea that we are effectively of different "minds". I just can't get behind such an idea.

How, exactly, is that racist?

[ 06 February 2008: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ][/QB]


Ok, first of all, as I have noted many times before, if there are 'green' people trying to take over school systems, call Muldur and Scully, because the invasion is upon us. However, we are talking about historical truths here, is suppose, unless we want to maintain fantasies about blue and green people. By the way, blue people are zombies, shoot them in the head before they try to eat your brain - its not their fault, they can't help it.

Ok, if we are finally grounded in reality, and not some whack fantasy about equality which suddenly fell into our laps, we can recognize that African Canadian kids and First Nations kids (which I shall deem to be Indians, because I want to type less) have had particular historical and cultural issues which make it very difficult, for , say, in particular, young fellas to succeed. OK? Can we take it that far? And if you can accept that, can you accept that the one or two alternative schools might help out some of these kids who would otherwise end up either smoking the pipe or supplying the pipe and eventually being shot by some white cop.

Been there done that.

Sucks.

So does it hurt so much to think that maybe some black kids or some indian kids might succeed better in a smaller school with indian or black teachers or white teachers who were really into black or indian kids and knew a lot about stuff.

Is that so fucking hard to imagine.

Dam, dream a little

Ancestors only know it was never there for me.

And look how that worked out?

Maybe, just maybe, some of the younger folk dont need to grow up with the despair and isolation and degradation that I assumed was normal.

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