NB Election -Take Two

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RP.

Invoking class at all in a losing proposition.

Stockholm

This has nothing to do with being "Blairite New Labourite". Social Democratic parties have been talking about the middle class for about the last 50 years. If you look at Labour Party manifestoes from Harold Wilson's time in the 1960s you will see it peppered with "middle class" all over the place and ditto with many European social democratic parties. "Citizens" and "New Brunswickers" includes the Irvings and the McCain's. "Middle class" does not.

Anyways, I suspect that the NDP in NB is not using the this terminology to impress the TJ, they are using it because its the term that their prospective voters identify with.

Caissa

As the progeny of New Brunswick working class parents I find the right-ward shift objectionable.

MTM mentioned the TJ first Stockholm. I was simply responding to his/her analysis.

I do not believe that the most members of the working class and those receiving soical assistance perceive themselves as working class in NB.

NB has been traditionally a very conservative province and instead of accomodating itself to this culture the provincial NDP should be challenging it.

mtm

Caissa, I'm not saying they are doing it to "impress" the Telegraph Journal.  I am just suggesting that invoking "class struggle" will allow them (and the other parties) to frame it as if we're loony communists (and you know they will).  It doesn't help anyone to keep struggling against the stream.

Society has no awareness of the inequity issue in the way you'd relate to it - They are looking for a real alternative that holds the principles they share - but not necessarily an overthrow of the wealthy class - as most people aspire to that class.

I dont understand how the use of the term "middle class" is going to go above and beyond the message and policies the party are advocating for you.  Nothing is changing except the way the party presents itself to the public at large, and when your base is 5%, well, that needs to be done.

Clearly, past practices didn't exactly treat us well.

Caissa

I'm not sure where else to go with my point mtm. The use of the term "middle class" was gratuitous and unneccesary in the letter.

I suppose it all comes down to a question of waht does the NDP stand for? If it is going to stand for trying to get candidates elected at any cost, then good luck. The party realistically has a chance of winning Duguay's seat.

Stockholm

Caissa wrote:

As the progeny of New Brunswick working class parents I find the right-ward shift objectionable.

I think that if there is any "right-ward shift" in the NBNDP - we should asses it on what policies are in the party platform now compared to in past elections and NOT on whether or not the word "middle class" appears in some communications materials.

Caissa

Okay, Stock. You win.

mtm

Caissa wrote:

I'm not sure where else to go with my point mtm. The use of the term "middle class" was gratuitous and unneccesary in the letter.

I suppose it all comes down to a question of waht does the NDP stand for? If it is going to stand for trying to get candidates elected at any cost, then good luck. The party realistically has a chance of winning Duguay's seat.

 

Whether you think we have a chance or not doesn't really change the objective.  Why would we sell ourselves short and say "realistically we can only win Duguay's seat, so lets not try and get elected".  The point is to appeal to a mass audience.

Plus, what does that say to other folks who may want to run for the NDP?  Oh, well they have no chance, why would I put my name and my neck out on the line?

The objective is to get some MLA's in the legislature - there is no compromising of positions or policies implicit in using this term.

I really think you're putting too much emphasis or importance on the "gratuitous" use of "middle class".

We're not getting anywhere by getting 5% again.  Just my $0.02

I would like to envision a scenario where we get 3 or 4 seats as being a possibility, but it surely wont be possible with self-defeating and conflicting rhetoric amongst our already meager supporter base.  It is time to unite and create a credible alternative to the Red and Blue parties that are running this place into the ground.  You may see it as having to hold your nose - but I see it as incremental progress.  If we say we can't win then we never will.  Too much is made of this "moving to the centre" nonsense.  It's called presenting our philosophies and policies in a way that appeals to people.  You don't need to compromise your principles to do this - in fact, to not do this I think is more compromising, because then you'll never get those views into the legislature where they can do some good.

Caissa

A much better message from an NDP candidate via Facebook

Matt Doherty for MLA in Quispamsis Time for NB to elect a party who will move on a catastrophic drug plan. The NDP will be championing this cause. I don't care if you are rich, poor or middle class but no one should have to pay for medication that forces you to liquidate the assets you have built up over your lifetime. We have seen a total lack of action from the Liberals and when Mr. Alward was in power before they did nothing. Break the cycle.

mtm

http://telegraphjournal.canadaeast.com/search/article/1042635

 

Voters, take note: I'm a strong woman
Published Friday May 7th, 2010


Election: Provincial labour leader wants to represent the riding of Saint John East for the NDP

C4

Karissa Donkin
TELEGRAPH-JOURNAL

SAINT JOHN - A provincial labour leader and mother of five is trying to paint Saint John East orange.

Click to Enlarge

Click to Enlarge

Submitted photo

Sandy Harding, NDP candidate in Saint John East, says she understands the inner workings of government.

Sandy Harding was nominated in November as the New Democratic Party candidate in Saint John East for this September's provincial election.

Harding is the president of CUPE 2745, the union representing 3,500 educational support staff in the province. Her involvement has led her to lobby the province against its wage restraint policy. She also sits on provincial coalitions for pay equity and child care.

Harding works as an administrative assistant at Dr. A. T. Leatherbarrow Primary School in Hampton, where she's from originally. She has lived on the east side for 18 years.

"We lobby government, so I understand (the) inner workings. We have to understand and be able to dissect budgets. I'm well-trained in those sorts of things," said Harding in a phone interview from Ontario, where she's finishing training for a certificate in labour studies.

"But I'm also a mother and a wife, and I think that those give important qualities to being a voice on the floor of the Legislature as well. I'm a strong woman," she said.

Harding is fundraising for her campaign, and has begun going door-to-door, listening to residents' concerns.

"All too often, people are told what the issues are. But I think it's very interesting to knock on the door and say, 'Listen, what do you feel the issue is?'" Harding said. "You can build a very different platform from that."

Harding is up against the Progressive Conservatives' nominee Glen Tait. while Coun. Bruce Court, Kevin McCarville and Jon O'Kane are competing for the Liberal nomination in the riding.

"It will be a three-way race in Saint John East next election because everywhere I go across the province, people talk about Sandy Harding," said New Brunswick NDP leader Roger Duguay. "She's a fighter."

Caissa

Premier Shawn Graham is shuffling his cabinet, adding one new face and offering three promotions before the Sept. 27 election.

Bernard LeBlanc, who resigned from cabinet over a privacy breach earlier this year, is returning as minister of justice. He will also be given the title of the province's inaugural minister responsible for public engagement.

Graham announced that he was setting up the public engagement portfolio last week coming out of a caucus retreat in St. Andrews.

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswick/story/2010/05/10/nb-graham-cabinet-shuffle-942.html#ixzz0nYFpwTUX

Caissa

Alward should invest in a dictionary.

 

The Progressive Conservatives' plan to introduce mandatory volunteering in New Brunswick high schools is drawing criticism from two Fredericton volunteer organizations.

Tory Leader David Alward released the first batch of campaign promises last week leading up to the Sept. 27 provincial election but it was one of the party's least costly planks that is getting the most attention.

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswick/story/2010/05/24/nb-mandatory-volunteer-alward-852.html#ixzz0ox0SMXjU

Caissa

The New Democratic Party and Green Party are reviving the debate over New Brunswick highway tolls in the run-up to the Sept. 27 election.

The leaders of both parties say they're in favour of bringing back tolls, a position Don Desserud, a political scientist at the University of New Brunswick in Saint John, said he finds odd.

"It's a bit of surprise because this was an issue that was dealt with, shall we say, in 1999," Desserud said. "I would think people would let it go away."

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswick/story/2010/06/01/nb-green-ndp-toll-highway-debate-329.html#ixzz0phlbtJJl

mtm

Irresponsible reporting there by the CBC.  You will note that no quotations come from either party leader.  This was a passing comment made in an almost week-old CBC political panel, that was more theoretical in nature.

It was more a question of whether tolls were a good or bad idea in theory rather than "would you bring back the tolls".  That position was never advocated, it was a mere opinion.

Shameful reporting on a slow news day, apparently.  They made up a story based on a week old interview.  It is definitely not part of the plan or anything that was intended. 

A dangerous example as to how you can try to talk about what you want to talk about but the media will latch on to any loose idea they feel they want to run with.  It is a shame.

Caissa

A new political party in New Brunswick is causing anxiety about a possible split vote in the Sept. 27 provincial election.

The People's Alliance expects to get official recognition by the end of the month, allowing it to be listed on the ballot in a general election in September.

The party says its aim is to reform politics by giving MLAs free votes on all issues.

"We feel that the people of the province need to have power back into their hands," said interim leader Kris Austin.

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswick/story/2010/06/02/nb-new-political-party.html#ixzz0pnYPDzQ3

Caissa

The Progressive Conservatives remain in the lead in popular support three months before the Sept. 27 provincial election, according to the latest Corporate Research Associates poll.

The Corporate Research Associates poll released on Thursday is expected to be the final poll before the campaign begins for the Sept. 27 election.

The Progressive Conservatives are ahead with 42 per cent support, followed by the Liberals with 37 per cent. The New Democratic Party is third with 16 per cent of the decided vote and the Green Party is a distant fourth with five per cent support. According to the polling firm, 36 per cent of those contacted were undecided.

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswick/story/2010/06/03/nb-cra-poll-election-liberals-conservatives-153.html#ixzz0poYEAddv

Stockholm

Caissa wrote:

A new political party in New Brunswick is causing anxiety about a possible split vote in the Sept. 27 provincial election.

The People's Alliance expects to get official recognition by the end of the month, allowing it to be listed on the ballot in a general election in September.

The party says its aim is to reform politics by giving MLAs free votes on all issues.

So, who exactly is this creating ANXIETY for??? I'm just picturing these CBC reporters in NB having to be admitted to a psychiatric ward after having severe ANXIETY attacks over the possibility that a new party listed on the ballot in NB might get a couple of votes. These people need to get a life.

mtm

lol.  The CBC in NB is very disappointing...  Their stories come out of left field it seems.

Caissa

CBC NB doesn't write well, Stockholm. It's creating anxiety amongst denizens of the Progressive Conservative party, of course. That's always to be applauded. You do remember NB's experience with the COR party, right?

Stockholm

Ever province has some bizarre fringe parties that have official standing...and that get less than 1% of the vote. Unless this People"s Alliance has a high profile leader and lots of money behind it - I predict it will have zero impact on the election. It sounds almost like a consortium of independents and cranks - whoever heard of a "party" whose only policy is that it has no policy except that all MLAs shoudl vote as they wish on everything??? What a waste of ink.

carl bainbridge

actually stockholm while one of our main tenants is the free vote it is not the only policy that we are working on

you can find our policy under the policy tab at http://www.panb.org

also dont knock us to early we have a ouple of decently high profile candidates who are intending on offering including those from a NDP background as well as liberals and conservatives

we are not just scaring the conservatives that is becoming evident

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Other than free votes, what does your party stand for?

Do you see yourselves as one of those "neither right nor left" kind of groups? 

As to free votes, was their any particular issue or set of issues where the vote, as you see it, would've gone differently if the MLA's had all been allowed to vote their consciences?

carl bainbridge

1) Right to Free Vote

* Currently, governing MLA's are often forced to "toe party lines" when it comes to passing bills on the floor of the Legislature, even to the detriment of the people who elected them.
* The Peoples Alliance of New Brunswick believes that true democracy means that each MLA has the duty to first represent the people who elected them. Therefore, the People's Alliance stands for the right of each elected member to have a "free vote" on any and all bills tabled without fear of being reprimanded by the party.

2) Campaign Ethics

* Recent polls indicate that voter turnout is at an all time low. The people of New Brunswick have lost faith in the political process due to a sense of deceit, misinformation, and broken promises by candidates of all political stripes.
* The Peoples Alliance of New Brunswick would set up an independent ethics committee that overlooks the promises and policies of each party during an election campaign. This committee would be given the authority to reprimand (fines, recall, impeachment) any candidate/party that does not hold true to their promises within their mandate.

3) Open Government

* The Peoples Alliance of New Brunswick believes the most effective way to govern is to be as open and transparent as possible. Progress is made when every option is on the table and every voice is allowed to be heard. We believe the everyday people of New Brunswick deserve to know and play a part in major decisions that chart our future as a province.

i would not actually call us either right or left as our executive director said we wont be pigeon holed into one style
basically there are people in our party who are on the right and there are people who are on the left
in each particular instance we will vote what we feel is best for our constitiuents or how our constiuents want us to vote depending on the number of people making a point of getting their message to us
we are also looking at various different policy options as i indicated above and one thing being looked at but not yet up on the board is some form of PPR

Caissa

A typical populist platform which when parties end up in a legislature runs up against the exigencies of responsible, cabinet government.

carl bainbridge

actually not necessarily caissa it is possible to run an open govt with a free vote

most municipalities do this anyway and most of them work well

the actual issue is creating a system where free vote and standing up for your constituents does not end with just our party but is carried through by each successive govt in a clear and effective manner that works well for the citizens of the province

also realize caisa that while i depise the man harper himself actually started with a cabinet that was not solely from his own elected party members and also used a liberal for outreach with specific groups until the liberals got annoyed that he was doing one thing right and forced the mp to choose which side he was on

the trick is it is not about sides it is about your province and your riding and doing what is best for your riding first and your province second and your leader third

Stockholm

People base their votes on substantive policy issues and not on process issues. Until you have clear defined positions on health care, pesnions, education, labour rights, women's rights, economic management etc... your party is a joke. 

mtm

I like the parts of the PANB "platform" that contradict the other parts.

Their policies, especially in regard to health read more like a wishlist.  For a province that is facing a ridiculous and out of control deficit, and riding debts that are almost insurmountable, it is great to say that everyone should have a right to sunshine, lollipops, hospital beds and seniors homes.  Just, how the heck is it possible?

 

The views of their various candidates/supporters don't seem to have any unifying ideology or commonalities but for extreme cynicism, and a general lack of basic grammar skills.

 

Also, if you want a party with no real guiding ideology that goes issue-to-issue waffling in the wind, without any sort of unifying political or philosophical compass, why don't you just join the liberals?

carl bainbridge

i find your thoughts that the party is a joke kind of funny stockholm we do seem to be getting that a lot from various party loyalists which actually makes us extremely happy because when people think we are a joke and spend a lot of time telling us this or perhaps saying we are nuts etc.

generally it leads us to believe that people are scared we might actually succeed

as far as mtm goes exactly which of our "wishlist" do you think we should give up in favour of something else

what we want is for people to have what they deserve and in most cases what is their right

as for the unifying ideology it is our three principles which guides us not the beating of one persons drum which has repeatedly led us to this mess we are in now

 

mtm

That whole rebuttal doesn't really make much sense, actually.  I find it really devoid of any content and high on the complete and utter bs scale.  All my comments in the previous post stand.

As for the "wishlist" - its not about which of those you can "give up" but which of those you can actually accomplish with no money.  Where will you find the cash to do so?  Or will you be like all the others and propose to spend your way to oblivion?

I don't think anyone on this forum needs to waste any more time indulging these malcontents in the so-called "PANB".  It's best not to feed their fire because they seem to think that people shooting down their crazy and inconsistent ideas is somehow an endorsement.

carl bainbridge

actually mtm my way of looking at it is like this

the ndp get ignored

the greens get ignored

but the PANB show up and we get trashed

that tells me someone is worried

Caissa

NB has a pretty solid history of being a 2 party system. The 1920 election was the only monority experience. The rise and fall of COR spanned less than a decade. Despite being an NDP supporter, I don't see NB becoing a multi party system any time in the near future.

mtm

Carl, I don't engage in political trash talk, it is counter productive and childish.  This isn't a basketball game, it is the future of the province. 

Besides, it is impossible to have a productive and reasoned discussion with someone who feels they are legitimized by criticism, no matter how appropriate or valid.  There's no way to win with you, because when we do point out how ridiculous you and your "party" (term used loosely) are, you'll just use some schoolyard logic and say that we're teasing you because we are afraid of you.

So forget it.  You can't have rational adult discussion, and it has been duly noted.

 

carl bainbridge

ok mtm then being rational which prts do  you think contradict each other

i will see what i can explain or try to find an answer or explanation

Caissa

New Brunswick taxpayers picked up the tab for Progressive Conservative Leader David Alward's unannounced trip to discuss energy issues with N.L. Premier Danny Williams in St. John's on Monday.

Alward has criticized Premier Shawn Graham's Liberals for using taxpayer dollars to promote their party at government announcements in the run-up to the Sept. 27 election.

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswick/story/2010/06/09/nb-alward-st-johns-energy-trip-543.html#ixzz0qMTLn7UW

Caissa

New Brunswick voters are issuing a strong rebuke against all of the province's political parties only months before the Sept. 27 election, according to a new poll.

The latest Corporate Research Associates poll showed that 45 per cent of New Brunswick voters polled cannot identify any party or picked none of the parties when asked who offer the best vision for the province.

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswick/story/2010/06/09/nb-cra-election-issue-poll-1159.html#ixzz0qNn5rNrJ

Caissa

New Brunswick's two major political parties are on pace to have more women on the provincial election ballot in September.

When the legislature adjourned this spring, only six of 55 MLAs were female and the Liberals and the Progressive Conservatives were under pressure to add more women to their ranks.

The nomination process is underway as New Brunswick's political parties gear up for the Sept. 27 election. The Tories have already nominated 11 female candidates, which is more than the seven from the 2006 campaign.

Meanwhile, the governing Liberals have managed to have seven women nominated as candidates. Party officials say there will be at least three more which would equal the 10 nominated in the last election.

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswick/story/2010/06/16/nb-female-candidates-election-645.html#ixzz0r1aVLSWr

mtm

Germain St United Baptist minister Wayne Dryer has declared his intention to seek the nomination for the NDP in Saint John Harbour, the riding previously held by Elizabeth Weir.

A nomination meeting has been set, and there are no other candidates announced, so I guess that quashes the speculation about a particular city councillor taking the plunge into provincial politics for now.

Caissa

Saint John Harbour will be an interesting three way race. If Wayne can access Elizabeth Weir's old team he could give carl and Ed a decent race.

Yibpl

Caissa wrote:

This paragraph from an email letter I received from Roger Duguay is a bit disconcerting.

 

Duguay writes:This scandal shows how much we need to elect NDP MLAs to bring the voice of the middle class back to the Legislature. 

Later he continues: The NDP is under new management. We are better organized than ever before, and more New Brunswickers support us now than ever before. We are ready to bring the voice of middle class New Brunswickers back to the Legislature.

 

Caissa wonders when the NB NDP became the voice of the middle class?

 

It would be nice if those who actual work for a living had at least 1 party who would represent their interests!

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

The "middle class" thing wouldn't be so bad if it weren't code for "Fuck the Poor".

The problem is, when you put the "middle class" first, you HAVE to abandon your conscience and compassion to do so.  You can't be pro-"middle class" and care about those with nothing.  Bill Clinton and Gary Doer proved this.

Yibpl

Caissa wrote:

New Brunswick voters are issuing a strong rebuke against all of the province's political parties only months before the Sept. 27 election, according to a new poll.

The latest Corporate Research Associates poll showed that 45 per cent of New Brunswick voters polled cannot identify any party or picked none of the parties when asked who offer the best vision for the province.

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswick/story/2010/06/09/nb-cra-election-issue-poll-1159.html#ixzz0qNn5rNrJ

I'm not surprised.  The PCs represent the interests of those with the good sense and good taste to be born into money, the corporate elite, and the chattering classes of Fredericton and Saint John; The Lieberals represent the interests of those with the good sense and good taste to be born into money, the corporate elite, and the chattering classes of Fredericton, Dieppe, and Bathurst; and the NDP represents the chattering classes of the university campuses and those who think Mao, Pol Pot, and Stalin had a pretty good thing going.  If I was still living in New Brunswick I think that I would be leaning towards voting for the People's Alliance.

mtm

Yeah, Pol Pot. Seriously, Roger Duguay? Do you even listen to yourself?  If you truly believe that there is any valid comparison between those butchers and any party leader of any established stripe in this country - you need to give your head a shake.  Even if it is in jest I have no time for that kind of over-the-top nonsense.

 

By your logic, Doer would be a mass murderer.   The funny thing about Doer is though, He GOT ELECTED.  Not once, not twice, but Three Times!

 

 

stmsr

Ken Burch wrote:

The "middle class" thing wouldn't be so bad if it weren't code for "Fuck the Poor".

The problem is, when you put the "middle class" first, you HAVE to abandon your conscience and compassion to do so.  You can't be pro-"middle class" and care about those with nothing.  Bill Clinton and Gary Doer proved this.

 

what do you think most people identify themselves as?   "middle class"

even most "poor" people (except the ones who are homeless, or have absolutely nothing) consider themselves to be, or want to be "middle class"

The NB NDP isn't going to forget about the "poor" people because its trying to identify with the majority of the province.

Caissa

The NDP should drop this meme.

Caissa

Then a guess the party wants to be another bourgeois parliamentary party like the rest of them.

Stockholm

I think if you want an example of being totally out of touch with the sensibilities of 21st century Canada - I would start with anyone who staill uses a dated hackneyed cliche of a word like "bourgeois" in anything other than an ironic or sarcastic context.

Caissa

So you're suggesting that the way for the NDP to get seats in 21st c. Canada is to sound like all of the other parties? Is it impossible in 21st c. Canada to have a viable party of the Left? Has the political spectrum shrunk so much in 21st c. Canada that all parties must protray themselves as the champion of the middle class? Is the Left now to say that capitalism is good and that aspiring to be a member of the middle class under capitalism is what all canadians should do?

I've given serious thought at different times to offering to run for the NDP in NB. I find it very difficult to consider doing so if the message is going to be one of the party being the voice of the middle class.  A PC MLA suggested to me that if this is going to be the NDP's message then I might as well run for the PC party whose message is no different.

Hoodeet

The Conservatives are lapsing into  high gear standard electioneering mode.  They are now promising "No tax increase".

The moon comes next.

Hoodeet

The Conservatives are lapsing into  high gear standard electioneering mode.  They are now promising "No tax increase".

The moon comes next.

bekayne

Are Conservative MP Greg Thompson's allegations having any impact?

http://dailygleaner.canadaeast.com/front/article/1098181

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