And so a new era begins in Canadian politics.......

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NorthReport

Trudeau loses his post-election shine after Paris attacks:

Unscripted response of rookie prime minister garners his worst week in the press since before campaign

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2015/11/19/trudeau-loses-his-post-ele...

Pondering

NorthReport wrote:

Trudeau loses his post-election shine after Paris attacks:

Unscripted response of rookie prime minister garners his worst week in the press since before campaign

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2015/11/19/trudeau-loses-his-post-ele...

Hebert may be right about the press, but the press is not the people and they have a lot less influence than they seem to think. 

I'm curious to see his approval ratings over the next few weeks. If there is any drop due to Conservative fear-monquering of the Syrian refugees it will be a very short term dip with far less significance than the Duffy trial. 

I'm very disappointed in Mulcair's failure to support Trudeau on bringing in the refugees. 

mark_alfred

Pondering wrote:

I'm very disappointed in Mulcair's failure to support Trudeau on bringing in the refugees. 

I don't think the House is even in session now, and I haven't seen anything in the media about this.

montrealer58 montrealer58's picture

I have the feeling that Conservative race-baiting, bigotry, and fear-mongering will drive Liberal numbers up as they did toward the end of the election campaign. Keep talking Conservatives!

Northern PoV

mark_alfred wrote:

Pondering wrote:

I'm very disappointed in Mulcair's failure to support Trudeau on bringing in the refugees. 

I don't think the House is even in session now, and I haven't seen anything in the media about this.

"haven't seen anything in the media about this"

Uh, perhaps that is exactly the point of the comment.....

NorthReport

People should read Con MP Tom Ludiwski's comments he made in 1991 as a prelude before giving him a pass

NorthReport

And the wheels seem to be coming off the bc liberal's bus over not once not twice but triple deleting of emails to avoid responding appropriately to foi requests

Sean in Ottawa

Pondering wrote:

NorthReport wrote:

Trudeau loses his post-election shine after Paris attacks:

Unscripted response of rookie prime minister garners his worst week in the press since before campaign

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2015/11/19/trudeau-loses-his-post-ele...

I'm very disappointed in Mulcair's failure to support Trudeau on bringing in the refugees. 

REally?

So I guess you already read this?

The NDP released this statement three weeks ago -- read the last line.

***

Today, the NDP called on the new government to urgently release an action plan outlining how Canada will get thousands of Syrian refugees resettled in the country by the end of the year.

“This is about saving lives. Canada needs to act quickly if we are to bring 25,000 vulnerable Syrian refugees out of harm’s way by the end of the year, as promised by the Prime minister-designate during the electoral campaign,” said NDP MP Hélène Laverdière (Laurier – Sainte-Marie). “Canadians and the provinces stand ready to help – but we need a roadmap from the federal government.”

If Canada is to meet this ambitious target for refugee resettlement by the end of the year, the government must work with the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, the provinces and settlement services to get Syrian refugees to Canada and ensure they are properly supported when they arrive.

“The whole world was moved by the tragic death of Alan Kurdi, and Canadians have showed a tremendous openness to welcoming – and even sponsoring – Syrian refugees caught in this crisis. The NDP stands ready to assist the new government on this important project,” said Laverdière.

NorthReport

Ignore the trolls.

-----------------------------------

The Farce Awakens

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/20/opinion/republican-refugee-panic-fits-...

Cody87

mark_alfred wrote:

I think that's a Liberal partisan shtick.  Make a post, and then for good measure, toss in some statement about being disappointed about the NDP not supporting some positive Liberal thing, even if it's untrue and they have supported it.

Well, I'm not disappointed in the NDP's response because I'm not surprised. How can you be disappointed by that which you've already lost all respect for? I expect Mulcair and Mulcair's NDP to be petty and partisan, not to support Trudeau by making it easier for Trudeau to justify the end of Canada's bombing mission or bringing in refugees, even though that would be the ethically correct to do (in my opinion).

But if you really think the last line of a press statement three weeks ago is sufficient support for Trudeau's position in light of the events that have transpired since and the assault from all sides that Trudeau has been taking, then I think most people would agree you're looking at it from a biased perspective. Three weeks ago it was easy to support the end of our bombing mission and bringing in refugees.

Since the Paris attacks those two topics have become a political hot potato and Mulcair and the NDP have stayed mum on whether or not they still support Trudeau's position. Then again, I don't have twitter or any other social media besides facebook, so maybe they've been offering support on social media?

mark_alfred

I think that's a Liberal partisan shtick.  Make a post, and then for good measure, toss in some statement about being disappointed about the NDP not supporting some positive Liberal thing, even if it's untrue and they have supported it.

ETA:  http://www.ndp.ca/news/ndp-calls-urgent-action-syrian-refugee-resettlement

mark_alfred

The Liberal schtick continues even still. 

The House isn't even in session.  Regardless, they're on record not only supporting it but urging the government to take action on the file.  I'm not sure what more you expect.  Daily cheerleading?  I'm sure not even that would appease the typical Liberal supporter.  ETA:  the NDP wrote, “Canadians and the provinces stand ready to help – but we need a roadmap from the federal government.”  Have the Liberals provided a roadmap yet?

Rev Pesky

mark_alfred wrote:

The House isn't even in session.  Regardless, they're on record not only supporting it but urging the government to take action on the file.  I'm not sure what more you expect.  Daily cheerleading?  I'm sure not even that would appease the arrogant Liberal shill.

The House has to be in session? That's strange, because it didn't have to be in session for Rona Ambrose. She was very clear that the Conservatives want the Canadian participation in the bombing to continue in statements to the media, and a featured editorial in the National Post yesterday. So the Conservatives, at least, haven't needed a House sitting to make their point.

Last tiime I heard, and please tell me if I'm wrong, Tom Muclcair was leader of the NDP. Where is he? Why can't he make a statement. He doesn't have to support the Liberals, but he should be supporting the principles held by the NDP party. That fact that the NDP leader is in hiding since the Paris attacks tells me all I need to know about the current edition of the NDP. The party I have supported for almost all of my life is no longer.

Between their abject failure to support Palestinian human rights,  and their inablity to make a clear, coherent statement in the face of media hype for more useless war they have demonstrated they no longer exist as a principled party of the left.  

Sean in Ottawa

Oh FFS. The NDP has been hammered. They are now the third party again. Almost nothing they say is being reported again. But you blame them for not having the same position they took a month ago constantly repeated in the press.

But then there is this today

“New Democrats are proud to stand with Ontarians to welcome Syrian refugees to our community. Understanding the importance of bringing in immigrants, respecting refugees in our society, and standing up for the global community is a part of our strong tradition here in Ontario,” Singh said.

“But a promise alone is not enough. We also need a plan. This government needs to come forward with a plan to ensure that these people receive the services they so desperately need.”

“What is this government’s plan when it comes to housing and other settlement services for these refugees? They need something concrete in addition to just promises.”

The Ontario NDP’s Immigration critic, London-Fanshawe MPP Teresa Armstrong said the government’s plan must include support services for refugees. “This government needs a plan for affordable housing to ensure that the refugees are adequately housed. It needs a plan for services—including mental health services—to ensure that they are adequately taken care of, and this government should ensure that the appropriate language support services are in place,” Armstrong said.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/immigration-minister-john-mccallum-1.331...

Earlier this month:

The New Democratic Party, for its part, said it supported the new cabinet committee but said it was disappointed with a lack of details on how exactly the government would get the refugees to Canadian shores. 

"This is the new government's first test on delivering the change they promised to Canadians. We hope that the next announcement, on how they will achieve this goal, is coming very soon," newly elected NDP MP Jenny Kwan said in a statement.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/immigration-minister-john-mccallum-1.331...

"Liberal leader Justin Trudeau promised to bring 25,000 refugees to Canada during the lead up to the Oct. 19 election — a move applauded by the NDP."

http://www.newsfultoncounty.com/politics/news/1015226-canada-forms-commi...

In late October:

"Mulcair says he nonetheless intends to stay on party leader and lead the NDP into the next federal election in four years. Until then, he intends to champion the issue of Syrian refugees, of which prime minister-designate Justin Trudeau has promised to bring some 25,000 to Canada by the end of the year."

http://www.thestar.com/business/2015/10/29/tom-mulcair-to-examine-what-w...

Furthermore, the need to repeat the same message seems odd since the NDP has never contradicted this at any time. This has been the position of the NDP from the start. The NDP never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever suggested any lack of support for the bringing of refugees during the campaign or after. At this point there is little the NDP can say on this issue that would be expected to be reported -- since reporters report news.

Now let's all sign a petition saying how horrible it is that the NDP has not expressed support for the use of oxygen for breathing this month. They must be against. We should really get pissed that there has been no support from Mulcair for the law of gravity. We can't even find comment from him in the past year. And the NDP must hate children becuase they have not advocated the wearing of mittens in winter. The NDP is at fault becuase Mulcair has not come out to express support for labour this month -- he must hate unions after all. And wow, the NDP is shit horrible for not expressing support for sunny ways and blue skies. The NDP campaigned in favour of childcare but it must be a low priority becuase they have only been quoted in the media speaking about it once since the election -- not as often as Syrian refugees.

Seriously now. Go to google. Type in Mulcair and then search. Select News and sort by date. You will see there is some news perhaps 10 stories a day. Now look more closely -- how many times is Mulcair being quoted? I found one on November 9, 11 days ago. The NDP is not getting much press, So to have the above statements about the Syrian refugees in the press is pretty good. Now look at those stories. You will see the kind of priority the NDP has placed on this: Very high. After that, most of the comment has been about the NDP loss, the leadership, shadow cabinet etc. Not much on any other issue and clearly about things the reporters would ask the NDP about. So knowing exactly what the third party's position is on Syrian refugees let me ask you this -- exactly how many questions a day would you expect Mulcair to be asked on this topic?

Pondering, we would be waiting for an apology but we know you have no shame and absolutely no desire to frame any discussion about the NDP honestly. And you wonder why people respond to you with disrespect.

Unionist

Cody87 wrote:
Three weeks ago it was easy to support the end of our bombing mission and bringing in refugees.

Since the Paris attacks those two topics have become a political hot potato and Mulcair and the NDP have stayed mum on whether or not they still support Trudeau's position.

You must have a pretty powerful microscope at home if you can tell the difference between the Liberals and NDP on any single "foreign affairs" issue, especially when it comes to foreign intervention and bombing civilians (remember Libya? Afghanistan?). And if there's a cowardly way out of the "promises" about ending the bombing of Syria and Iraq, you can be sure that both parties are diligently searching for one now.

Of course the NDP should be clearly and publicly demanding that the Liberal government live up to its promises. But right now, the NDP is suffering from PTSNDP. It's understandable why they're shying away from saying anything that they might have to defend. Or retract.

ETA: Just checked again for any statement by the NDP on Syria, Iraq, Paris, Beirut, ... [url=http://ndp.ca]Here's their web site.[/url] You'll see three (3) links entitled "DONATE", one (1) link entitled "Make a Donation", and four (4) boxes offering a choice of donation amounts.

In short, they're busy fundraising. Give them time to get their act together, ok?

Unionist

Trudeau's CF-18s are still bombing Syrians and Iraqis. And I just checked to see whether the NDP had reminded him to stop. Can't find anything.

If anyone has access to an NDP statement of any kind demanding a halt to the bombing (as promised by both the Liberals and NDP), let me know please.

Meanwhile, please respond to the almost daily appeal by Matthew Behrens on rabble.ca's Facebook page and elsewhere:

Quote:
Today, Thursday, November 19, Justin Trudeau once again failed to stop Canadian CF-18 bombers from inflicting the kind of horrors seen in this disturbing video of what it is like to be UNDER the bombs and missiles. How can he look at the children and parents in this video and claim that he is ending the bombing "responsibly?" Please email Trudeau again, even if you have done so before, and demand that he stop the bombing NOW. Stopping such horror is the ONLY responsible thing to do. There is no reason why he cannot do so. Visit this weblink to send your message: http://pm.gc.ca/eng/contactpm

... and make sure to send a copy to the NDP.

 

mark_alfred

Any Liberal failure will most certainly be the fault of the 3rd place NDP.

mark_alfred

(re: post #114)  Yes Reverend Pesky, I realize the NDP's statement of support of the Liberal's plan to bring in 25,000 refugees was not enough for you.  And I recall you mentioning other things that disappointed you, like the NDP's desire to raise the corporate tax rate by 2%, which was somehow counter to your perception of "a principled party of the left," (you feeling it should not be raised at all).  Oh well, to each their own.

Morneau just discussed various budget considerations in an expect less sort of way (link).  The NDP will be making a statement about this (it will be on CBC Newsworld shortly).  Perhaps they'll have pom-poms and cheerlead in the vain hope of appeasing you and others of Liberal persuasion, or maybe they'll make some observation from a left-leaning oppositional sort of way (and given that they are in opposition, this is what I expect).

Sean in Ottawa

It’s probably just as well that the New Democratic Party is fairly quiet these days, since NDP leader Thomas Mulcair has made it more than clear that the pacifist isolationism of his predecessor Jack Layton remains at the core of NDP policy in these matters, and that as for the global struggle against ISIL: “This is not our fight.”

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/terry-glavin-there-is-only-one...

R.E.Wood

I noticed the NDP in the press today, with this quote: NDP finance critic Guy Caron said. "We have to ensure the government remains fiscally responsible, [but] the idea of balanced budgets at all costs has never been part of our platform."

Source: http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/morneau-fiscal-update-1.3327571

What kind of revisionist statement is Caron making? The "balanced budgets at all costs" mantra was spouted by Mulcair constantly throughout the campaign.

wage zombie

Unionist wrote:

ETA: Just checked again for any statement by the NDP on Syria, Iraq, Paris, Beirut, ... [url=http://ndp.ca]Here's their web site.[/url] You'll see three (3) links entitled "DONATE", one (1) link entitled "Make a Donation", and four (4) boxes offering a choice of donation amounts.

In short, they're busy fundraising. Give them time to get their act together, ok?

They do not have the capacity and/or the awareness to keep their web site updated to reflect issues of the day.  They should, but they don't seem to realize it.

Rev Pesky

mark_alfred wrote:

(re: post #114)  Yes Reverend Pesky, I realize the NDP's statement of support of the Liberal's plan to bring in 25,000 refugees was not enough for you. ...

Whoopee! Now where is the statement from the leader of the NDP on the continued bombing in Iraq and Syria? Where is Mulcair's statement on the killing of civilians by Canadian bombs? Where is Thomas Mulcair?

And Mark, if you want to argue coroporate tax, that's no problem. The first thing you have to learn is that raising corporate taxes doesn't necessarily raise tax revenue, and the second thing is that corporations don't pay taxes, they collect them. That's all that I pointed out about the NDP's tax policy.

If they wanted to do something really revolutionary, they would tax capital.

 

Sean in Ottawa

Rev Pesky wrote:

mark_alfred wrote:

(re: post #114)  Yes Reverend Pesky, I realize the NDP's statement of support of the Liberal's plan to bring in 25,000 refugees was not enough for you. ...

Whoopee! Now where is the statement from the leader of the NDP on the continued bombing in Iraq and Syria? Where is Mulcair's statement on the killing of civilians by Canadian bombs? Where is Thomas Mulcair?

And Mark, if you want to argue coroporate tax, that's no problem. The first thing you have to learn is that raising corporate taxes doesn't necessarily raise tax revenue, and the second thing is that corporations don't pay taxes, they collect them. That's all that I pointed out about the NDP's tax policy.

If they wanted to do something really revolutionary, they would tax capital.

 

What is the rush right now for the third party to repeat an articulation of a position they have held a long time?

How do you know when the NDP is saying anything if it is not newsworthy and therefore not likely to be reported -- now that the NDP is in third place? Why would you expect to hear about an NDP position that would likely not be covered becuase it is nothing new?

Would it not be better to ask the NDP to take a position on things it has not yet taken a position on (as a priority) over repeating positions it has taken, that are well-known and unchanged?

I am happy to see the NDP continue to articulate these positions and think they should do so but I cannot assume that they are not doing so when I know that only news makes newscasts and there is no reason why we would hear this.

Likewise on the NDP website -- you send out a relase when you have something new or different to say. You do not repeat them just becuase you did not say it yet this week.

The priority for the NDP to twist arms to get ink on something not newsworthy becuase they are already on the right side of the issue seems misplaced.

The NDP has to figure out a lot of serious quesitons now. And repeating the policies it already has right just does not seem that important to me or life changing.

I do expect when the House sits that the NDP will ask quesitons about our role in Syria -- be it in the air or on the ground or with respect to refugees and the support of them once they arrive.

In the meantime the NDP should be working internally and I suspect that is what they are doing. I have concerns about that as I have said but see no reaosn to repeat policies they have already taken right now.

Rev Pesky

Statement of Thomas Mulcair on the attacks in Paris, courtesy of the NDP  website:

 

Quote:
NDP Leader Tom Mulcair made the following statement today:

"Canadians are shocked and horrified by the terrorist attacks in Paris today. We stand with the world in grieving this terrible loss of life and in condemning cowardly violence."

On behalf of all New Democrats, I extend my profound condolences to the families of those killed, and to the people of France.

Today the world is united in grief, and in our determination not to give in to fear. Our prayers are with Paris."

That's it folks, the full and complete statement.

On Sean's argument that it doesn't matter whether you repeat a known position, here are some statements from the NDP website.

 

Quote:

NDP Leader Tom Mulcair was in Brantford today, joined by NDP candidate Marc Laferriere(Brantford-Brant), as part of his six city Southwestern Ontario Whistle-Stop Harper tour.

“If Ontarians want to defeat Stephen Harper and have better healthcare, cleaner air and water, and real opportunities for jobs and growth, it’s the NDP that will deliver,” said Mulcair. “We can build the Canada of our dreams, and it starts right here in Southwester Ontario.”

Mulcair slammed Harper for his failures on health care, the environment and for losing 400,000 manufacturing jobs, including more than 43,000 in Canada’s auto sector.

“Tom Mulcair is a strong leader who will help families get ahead and fight for good jobs in Brantford,” said Laferriere. “For Canadians who want change in Ottawa, it’s Tom Mulcair that has the plan and the team to get us there.”

On TPP negotiations, Mulcair also slammed the Conservatives and the Liberal Party for their lack of support for the auto industry. He cited a statement by a senior Trudeau advisor advocating letting the big 3 automakers go bankrupt.

“Stephen Harper hasn’t stood up for auto jobs, and Justin Trudeau and the Liberal Party simply won’t,” said Mulcair. “An NDP government will fight for auto jobs with a national auto strategy, support manufacturing, and invest in innovation.”

 

Quote:

NDP Leader Tom Mulcair was in Waterloo today, joined by NDP candidate Diane Freeman (Waterloo), as part of his six city Southwestern Ontario Whistle-Stop Harper tour.

“If Ontarians want to defeat Stephen Harper and have better healthcare, cleaner air and water, and real opportunities for jobs and growth, it’s the NDP that will deliver,” said Mulcair. “We can build the Canada of our dreams, and it starts right here in Southwestern Ontario.”

Mulcair slammed Harper for his failures on health care, the environment and for losing 400,000 manufacturing jobs, including more than 43,000 in Canada’s auto sector.

“Tom Mulcair is a strong leader who will help families get ahead and bring good jobs to Waterloo,” said Freeman. “For Canadians who want change in Ottawa, it’s Tom Mulcair that has the plan and the team to get us there.”

On TPP negotiations, Mulcair also slammed the Conservatives and the Liberal Party for their lack of support for the auto industry. He cited a statement by a senior Trudeau advisor advocating letting the big 3 automakers go bankrupt.

“Stephen Harper hasn’t stood up for auto jobs, and Justin Trudeau and the Liberal Party simply won’t,” said Mulcair. “An NDP government will fight for auto jobs with a national auto strategy, support manufacturing, and invest in innovation.”

Quote:

NDP Leader Tom Mulcair was in Stratford today, joined by NDP candidate Ethan Rabidoux(Perth-Wellington), as part of his six city Southwestern Ontario Whistle-Stop Harper tour.

“If Ontarians want to defeat Stephen Harper and have better healthcare, cleaner air and water, and real opportunities for jobs and growth, it’s the NDP that will deliver,” said Mulcair. “We can build the Canada of our dreams, and it starts right here in Southwestern Ontario.”

Mulcair slammed Harper for his failures on health care, the environment and for losing 400,000 manufacturing jobs, including more than 43,000 in Canada’s auto sector.

“Tom Mulcair is a strong leader who will help families get ahead and fight for good jobs in Stratford,” said Rabidoux. “For Canadians who want change in Ottawa, Tom Mulcair has both the plan and the team to get us there.”

On TPP negotiations, Mulcair also slammed the Conservatives and the Liberal Party for their lack of support for the auto industry. He cited a statement by a senior Trudeau advisor advocating letting the big 3 automakers go bankrupt.

“Stephen Harper hasn’t stood up for auto jobs, and Justin Trudeau and the Liberal Party simply won’t,” said Mulcair. “An NDP government will fight for auto jobs with a national auto strategy, support manufacturing, and invest in innovation.”

For the hard of reading the same posting occurs two more times. So apparently it is OK to say things more than once. There are also many, many posts on the TPP, so, again, if the NDP thinks something is important, they say it over and over. From reading the website one thing becomes clear, foreign policy is of very little interest to the NDP.

 

 

 

 

quizzical

good it shouldn't be a priority.

i liked the statement. nothing more was needed in respect to Paris.

Unionist

quizzical wrote:

good it shouldn't be a priority.

i liked the statement. nothing more was needed in respect to Paris.

I agree.

Someone said above: "... repeating the policies it already has right just does not seem that important to me or life changing."

But bombing people in Syria and Iraq is life changing for them. I don't understand why the NDP hasn't demanded, just once since the election, if not every single day, that the Trudeau government keep its promise and withdraw from the bombing.

I've written to the PM, with a copy to my NDP MP, asking him to keep his promise and stop, now. I haven't heard from either one of them.

 

felixr

I predict Justin Trudeau will need a restraining order against Susan Delacourt over the next few years, as her fan girl editorials spiral out of control.

NorthReport

Oh my.

What are the pathetic war-mongers going to do now?

Provincial support exceeds Canada's Syrian refugee target: immigration minister

'I have never felt so patriotic as a Canadian as I am today,' John McCallum says

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/john-mccallum-syrian-refugee-confe...

NorthReport
NorthReport

As much as Trudeau is sure to disappoint, it seems that a rather large number of Canadians are heaving a collective sigh of relief that the anti-people war-mongering Harper government era is over. 

Sean in Ottawa

Rev Pesky wrote:

 

For the hard of reading the same posting occurs two more times. So apparently it is OK to say things more than once. There are also many, many posts on the TPP, so, again, if the NDP thinks something is important, they say it over and over. From reading the website one thing becomes clear, foreign policy is of very little interest to the NDP.

Let's have a little exercise for those who are challenged with logic.

Ok to do does not mean you must.

Ok not to do does not mean you can't.

To say there is not any requirement to repeat does not mean you can't or won't or haven't.

Of course the other part of the argument was that if you repeat you are less likely to be covered by the media because it is not newsworthy. It does not mean you won't, but it is not likely that you will.

There should be a big black and yellow book called "Logic for Liberals"

Sean in Ottawa

NorthReport wrote:

As much as Trudeau is sure to disappoint, it seems that a rather large number of Canadians are heaving a collective sigh of relief that the anti-people war-mongering Harper government era is over. 

Absolutely

Pondering

I have different expectations of a party that claims to the The Progressive Party of Canada. I expect them to stand up for the downtrodden. I understand that they have to be fairly centrist in a country like Canada because they are supposed to represent the people and Canadians are moderates. Having said that there are lines.

People are back to not paying much attention to politics so it probably doesn't much matter what Mulcair says one way or another.  It's going to have zero impact, it certainly won't affect the election of 2019. What's going on now can have a collective impact over the years in creating a general perception if the background noise remains steady. 

Trudeau's numbers dived because he wasn't seen to be doing much, had no policy, but the general impression of him remained that of a nice guy with very Canadian values. As soon as he showed he could hold his own in the debates and had a credible platform it was in the bag because all else being equal, why not go for the guy you think shares your values and that you relate to? Most people had little idea of what was in his platform, it was enough that experts said it was credible and everyone knows the Liberals are credible as a party. Tax the 1% and infrastructure were the cherries on top that sealed the deal. 

To make a long story short, what is important now for Mulcair and the NDP is the general impression they give. They have to earn respect. They won't do it through bluster nor through using the refugee issue to beat at the Liberals. The Liberals will get the 25K here whether they arrive by January first or not doesn't really matter but I believe the Liberals will meet that target and the refugees will be adequately housed and grateful to be here and none of them will be terrorists.

The Conservatives are fear monguering, suggesting there isn't enough time to screen them properly and insufficient personel to process them once they arrive and that logistically it can't be done. That will be proven wrong as soon as they begin arriving.

The NDP should be defending the Liberals, not for the sake of the Liberals, but for the sake of the NDP. The NDP should be saying yes we can do this and even contributing to the effort if they can think of a way to do it. They should be assuring the public that Canada has strong security measures already in place to screen refugees so there is no need for us to be afraid. The NDP should be isolating the Conservatives on this if they ever hope to win an election. The general background noise should be that the Conservatives are drumming up fear and division. There is a chance the Conservatives could be driven into third place by 2019. Making mischief between the various factions in the Conservatives would be clever. 

Joining the Conservatives in being downers is out of touch with the mood of the country. People are on a high with the relief of Harper being gone and Trudeau doing well on the world stage. We are proud of our gender parity cabinet and the weekly announcements. They're happy the election is over with. Christmas is coming. Everyone wants to be cheerful and optimistic. If Trudeau was planning to sign the TPP or CETA this week, then yeah, the NDP would be justified in being alarmist but being negative  and weird about being the "progressive opposition". A newsman practically snickered saying "whatever that means". Holding the Liberals "to account" sounds ridiculous, "The Liberals are going to do something bad but don't you worry because we are going to catch them". It sounds weird. You don't say you are going to hold someone to account, you just do it. The election is over. If the Liberals do something that the NDP disapproves of they should of course object as strenuously as need be and "hold the Liberals to account". Until then they need to exude progressiveness and make principled non-partisan objections and support good Liberal policy. That is how the NDP will prove they are ready to form government, not by moaning and groaning over everything the Liberals do looking for an excuse to criticize. In four years from now the impression of the NDP will be the party that is always complaining even when things are going great. They won't admit that anything is good unless they can take credit for it. 

The NDP is not just playing politics, worse, they are playing it badly and will only hurt themselves by it. Mulcair talking like the NDP is doing great is also weird. When the Liberals dropped to third they were sombre and said things like "we are going to have to rebuild the party from the grassroots". Everyone was saying the Liberals needed serious reflection and redirection. The Liberals did not focus on hounding the Conservatives. 

Right now the NDP should be assuring Canadians we can manage the influx of refugees, not encouraging doubts of any kind in the capability of our government to manage it successfully. 

On the bombing, Trudeau has never condemned it, only said that there are better ways for us to contribute to the battle. He is planning on increasing combat soldiers that can train local fighters but that can occur on the front lines. Apparently we will be helping determine targets for the bombing. He will be coordinating the withdrawal with allies in an orderly fashion. So, he is not withdrawing the bombers because it is wrong, he is doing it because we would be more productive offering different skills to the coalition. 

If the NDP is against bombing then they need to make that argument, not just criticize the Liberals for not pulling out faster. Pundits across the board and even Rona Ambrose said Trudeau would be justified in reversing that decision due to the Paris attacks and I think most Canadians would agree. The harder argument for him to make is pulling out.  So, NDP criticism of this looks either wrong or shallow, quibbling over timing. 

What is most important to the NDP over the next four years is to strategize wisely. It is implausible to imagine that the Liberals will fall from first to third in 2019. Is it possible sure, but highly unlikely. It would be fall over shocking. I cannot imagine Trudeau doing anything nearly as bad as all the crap Harper pulled year after year. 

Pundits were even suggesting that Trudeau should run for second not first. In over words battle NDP for supremacy this election then in 2019 go for the Conservatives. This was based on the implausibility of going from third to first. But, the Liberals were in an unusual situation in that the party still had a very strong reputation as the party that governed Canada for most of its history coupled with the name recognition of Trudeau. 

The NDP is unlikely to have advantages like these in 2019. Going from third to first is extremely unlikey. While the Liberals have such strong support NDP complaints will be at best useless. If I were an NDP criticism, I would accuse Rona Ambrose of politicizing the tragedy in Paris by commenting on the bombing mission so quickly, of trying to force Trudeau's hand to keep failed Conservative policy.

The NDP should have cheered the return of the long form census and talking about how communities need that information to illustrate that if in power that is the kind of thing they would do too. 

They should be making statements on the various harmful items in TPP explaining it to the public. What the NDP needs to win back is credibility. That only 12% of voters would vote NDP isn't about strategic voting because the election is over and Trudeau won. 

Cody87

Pondering wrote:
What the NDP needs to win back is credibility.

I didn't even skim the whole post, much less read it. But this pretty much sums up everything that was wrong with the NDP's campaign, as well as explains what is wrong with their current direction post-election.

Pondering

Cody87 wrote:

Pondering wrote:
What the NDP needs to win back is credibility.

I didn't even skim the whole post, much less read it. But this pretty much sums up everything that was wrong with the NDP's campaign, as well as explains what is wrong with their current direction post-election.

Being long-winded is one of my worst qualities. 

The Liberals are not going to fall from 1st to 3rd in 2019 so the NDP has to push the Conservatives into 3rd or they are the ones that will stay there. 

Picking at the Liberals so early in their win over nothing makes the NDP look petty not strong. 

Isolating the Conservatives on issues by actively supporting the Liberals return to a long form census and other progressive measures without qualification would place the NDP on the high ground. 

On issues like the TPP and CETA the NDP should present strong and principled opposition to the deals not to the Liberals. To make it about the Liberals is to turn the opposition to the deals into partisanship.

Sean in Ottawa

Again Pondering -- you are missing the point that repeating well known positions are not very productive -- they are very unlikely to be reported. But you don't even bother to check. I guess you just presumed, since the NDP was in favour of the Long Form, that the NDP praising the Liberals on this would not be reported so you could play your propaganda game. I presumed that the NDP were unlikely to be reported on this as most journalist would not report non-news but at least I checked and low and behold, I found comment within a few seconds.

You are also being totally dishonest by neglecting to even do a few seconds of checking. Perhaps you do this becuase you assume most people will think you know what you are talking about and would have checked as any responsible person making an assertion such as this. Your reputation here means that people are more likely to check when you say something becuase the default presumption some of us have with you is that you are lying. And it turns out when you are reporting things that this is often the case.

How many minutes did it take for you to write that long post? I am certain it took me less time to google the information to put the lie to what you are saying.

So before spreading it thick -- why don't you use google and search say -- "NDP" and "Long Form Census" then select "news" then sort by date.

This would, in less than a minute, be able to bring up some of the easiest-to-find (although not all) comment by the NDP on certain topics. Without a paid news monitoring system you may miss a lot but at least you can avoid being called a liar by attacking the NDP and having someone like me come and do a 10 second search to find what you said is BS. The first article I found:

"Several groups including the Federation for the Humanities and Social Sciences, the Canadian Psychological Association, and the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada applauded the Liberal government’s decision to reinstate the long-form census. The NDP also welcomed the move. “Reversing the damage done by the previous administration will be a long-term job and today’s announcement is a good first step,” NDP MP Charlie Angus said in a press release."

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/11/05/trudeau-census-long-form-navdeep...

Note: this was not just comment but a press release. What more do you want???

Interestingly, listen to the clip. You will hear about the 4-minute mark comment about the junior portfolios going to Women. So it seems that Quizzical's concerns have been reported directly here. Perhaps you heard a critcism of the Party and decide not to read the article -- who knows. Clearly you are incable of interpretting what the NDP is saying as you are very selective, you don't do basic research and you write huge articles critical of the NDP without even a few seconds of searching if they might be true.

I agree with you on some aspects of the tone of the NDP but when you include crap like this and show such bias, I just write off the rest of your post as pure stinky propaganda garbage.

If you want people to show more respect for you -- try to show more respect for the truth.

Pondering

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

You are also being totally dishonest by neglecting to even do a few seconds of checking. Perhaps you do this becuase you assume most people will think you know what you are talking about and would have checked as any responsible person making an assertion such as this. 

.....

If you want people to show more respect for you -- try to show more respect for the truth.

Make up your mind. I couldn't care less if people like you and your buds show respect for me. Not doing so reflects more poorly on you and babble than it does on me. 

As to Charlie Angus approving the long-form census move, Mulcair is the leader of the party, just now I searched "mulcair ndp long form census" under "news" and "web". The Charlie Angus comment didn't show up. 

Regardless of my mistake on the long census form, the argument I am making doesn't change. I am discussing the general impression the NDP is leaving in their attitute towards the Liberals over the next four years and the need to focus their attentions on pushing the Conservatives to 3rd so that the NDP will again be the official opposition in 2019. 

You want to take exception to that, present your argument that the NDP has a realistic chance of beating the Liberals back down to 3rd place in 2019. 

Either the NDP or the Conservatives are by far the most likely to be in 3rd place in 2019. Right now the NDP seems determined to keep the spot. 

Mulcair should have jumped on Rona Ambrose for politicking the day after the Paris attacks. 

If the NDP allows the Conservatives to regain strength then it is the Conservatives that will benefit from any weakening of the Liberals not the NDP. The NDP will return to being "the conscience of Canada", in 3rd place for another generation. They could even end up splitting in two as the Progressives Conservatives did, and spend decades fighting until they are forced to reunite to become contenders. 

NorthReport

Just keep repeating to yourself: Ignore the trolls.

----------

Sir Richard Branson: Blaming all Muslims for Paris attacks like 'blaming all Americans for past actions of Ku Klux Klan'

The Virgin founder also criticised Republican governors 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/sir-richard-branson-blaming-all...

 

Sean in Ottawa

Pondering wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

You are also being totally dishonest by neglecting to even do a few seconds of checking. Perhaps you do this becuase you assume most people will think you know what you are talking about and would have checked as any responsible person making an assertion such as this. 

.....

If you want people to show more respect for you -- try to show more respect for the truth.

Make up your mind. I couldn't care less if people like you and your buds show respect for me. Not doing so reflects more poorly on you and babble than it does on me. 

Nope -- it is about you but it is always nice to see such a healthy ego.

The rest of your post is not worthy of response.

JKR

Pondering wrote:

The Liberals are not going to fall from 1st to 3rd in 2019 so the NDP has to push the Conservatives into 3rd or they are the ones that will stay there. 

Judging by recent opinion polls, few who voted Conservative in the election will likely consider voting for the NDP in 2019 while many more who voted Liberal in the election will be open to switching to the NDP. So it makes sense for the NDP to concentrate much more on the large group of NDP-Liberal swing voters than on the small group of NDP-Conservative swing voters.

Rev Pesky

Sean in Ottawa wrote:
...Ok not to do does not mean you can't...

That is correct. So why did the NDP choose to remain silent, again?

Cody87

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

The rest of your post is not worthy of response.

The rest of her post looks reasonable to me. What exactly about it is not worthwhile to respond to? Do you disagree with her claim that it will likely be the NDP or Conservatives in 3rd next election? Do you disagree with her idea that attacking the unpopular Conservatives would probably do more to improve the NDP's standings then attacking the Liberals? Do you not see that if the Liberals, with stated policy very similar to the NDP (relative to the Conservatives), are weakened, that this is likely to overall benefit the Conservatives?

Do you contest her point that the NDP's reputation has been damaged and that the NDP is continuing to leave a negative impression on voters (as evidenced by their exceptionally low polling numbers)?

Once again you dismiss an argument from someone you disagree with rather than respond to it. If you don't want to address the points, that's fine ignore them - but don't appeal to ridicule.

quizzical

lol Sean was right on the money about ponderings post. fabrications by the Liberal talking heads here are a  pita

Unionist

I think they're a roti.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

ridiculousness on the internet?

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Cody87 wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

The rest of your post is not worthy of response.

The rest of her post looks reasonable to me. What exactly about it is not worthwhile to respond to? Do you disagree with her claim that it will likely be the NDP or Conservatives in 3rd next election? Do you disagree with her idea that attacking the unpopular Conservatives would probably do more to improve the NDP's standings then attacking the Liberals? Do you not see that if the Liberals, with stated policy very similar to the NDP (relative to the Conservatives), are weakened, that this is likely to overall benefit the Conservatives?

Do you contest her point that the NDP's reputation has been damaged and that the NDP is continuing to leave a negative impression on voters (as evidenced by their exceptionally low polling numbers)?

Once again you dismiss an argument from someone you disagree with rather than respond to it. If you don't want to address the points, that's fine ignore them - but don't appeal to ridicule.

Cody87, you generallly post very pro Liberal commentary so to start off with, its no surprise you'd agree with Pondering. We can call her commentary out and explain why untill the cows come home, but it doesn't make a difference. Sean is simply calling it what it is. From my perspective, it doens't appear that any of the Liberal posters on here are interested in doing anything other than slagging the NDP, and trying to derail threads. I'm really not sure why they bother; no one important reads what is posted here, and it in no way affects what occurs regarding national dicussion. I guess its just a desire to spread the LPC gospel any place possible.

So, Sean isn't really doing anything out of the normal or unreasonable. He wasn't ridiculing Pondering, he simply said what many of us think, there is absolutely in point in trying to engage her most of the time. And honestly, based on my interactions with you, I have the same feeling about you as well.

There doesn't seem to be any point in tryiing to discuss anything with you. It gets twisted in reply, and confused, full obfuscation. So, post away all you both want. Sometimes we'll engage, and expect people to call a spade, a spade.

Again given how shy you haven't been regarding my writing and posts I would think you'd understand why almost anyone on here would feel the way they do. If I remermber correctly, you asked me if I was a Time Traveller the last time we engaged. That isn't ridicule? Unless of course I got confused and it was someoen else. Certainly, I don't recall you ever coming to my defense on anything. That's odd, isn't it?

ETA: You may both feel you're being rationale or reasoned. But you are Liberals, and post the Liberal line. I'm not a Liberal. I think the Liberal line is purely nonsensical. So expect me, Sean, and everyone else to engage, and again, to call a spade, a spade.

mark_alfred

mark_alfred wrote:

The Liberal schtick continues even still. 

The House isn't even in session.  Regardless, they're on record not only supporting it but urging the government to take action on the file.  I'm not sure what more you expect.  Daily cheerleading?  I'm sure not even that would appease the typical Liberal supporter.  ETA:  the NDP wrote, “Canadians and the provinces stand ready to help – but we need a roadmap from the federal government.”  Have the Liberals provided a roadmap yet?

Since the Liberal supporters here at Babble are too busy fabricating spurious attacks on the NDP to answer my question, I'll answer it myself.  Apparently on Tuesday the Liberals will release details of the plan to bring in the 25,000 refugees. 

Liberals to announce details of Syrian refugee plan Tuesday

mark_alfred

OPSEU's Smokey Thomas calls for the government to sell marijuana at the LCBO, which sounds like a good idea. 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/marijuana-liquor-ontario-1.3329529

NorthReport

Joe Oliver says Liberals playing classic 'cupboard is bare game'

'The fact is we left them with a $1.6-billion surplus,' former finance minister asserts

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/joe-oliver-fiscal-update-surplus-deficit...

NorthReport

Europe's Largest Department Store Removes Israeli Products From Shelves

KaDeWe in Berlin will re-label products following the EU's decision to mark Israeli settlement goods, spokeswoman says.

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.687513

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