Anti-Semitism and free speech

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Ripple
Anti-Semitism and free speech
Ripple

A couple of people have commented on this article at rabble, and it's related to several threads we've had, so I thought I'd bring it to babble for discussion.

I was surprised to learn that bds activists in France are facing trial for hate speech.  I don't see this happening in the immediate future in Canada, but this is a step in that direction.

mahmud

 

So much for the NDP -the conscience of Canada- tolerating and abetting its members taking part in this abominable "committee", totalitarian in its means and sinister in its desired objective.

MCsquared

Ripple wrote:

A couple of people have commented on this article at rabble, and it's related to several threads we've had, so I thought I'd bring it to babble for discussion.

I was surprised to learn that bds activists in France are facing trial for hate speech.  I don't see this happening in the immediate future in Canada, but this is a step in that direction.

That is despicable. Can you get a link to this story on the hate speech trial?

NDPP

With people like Kenney, Cotler, Rae and the above mentioned unmentionables on the job, don't be at all surprised  - after all according to Avi Lieberman and Bibi Netanyahu, Canada's the best friend the Zionist entity ever had...

see www.seriouslyfreespeech.ca

remind remind's picture

Great article at rabble it is...and the 'progressive' blogger of recent controversy finds himself on the same side as Kenney and Cotler, imagine that......egg all over the place.

mahmud

 

MCsquared wrote :"That is despicable. Can you get a link to this story on the hate speech trial?"

Many links in French.. Few in English.

 

http://www.alternativenews.org/english/index.php/topics/economy-of-the-o...

OR   http://tinyurl.com/3a9bhta

And

http://www.scottishpsc.org.uk/Past-Events/solidarity-with-french-bds-act...

NDPP

"Right now in France people are being brought to court and charged with 'hate' for sticking a boycott label on an Israeli product. Do we want that here?"

Only the 'sticking a boycott label on an Israeli product' part:

CJPME Launches 'We're Not Buying It!' - Boycott Israel Centre.

http://www.cjpme.org/

Check it Out! Tell all your friends!

Unionist

I wrote to my MP (Tom Mulcair), to Jack Layton, and to Gilles Duceppe about a year ago, at some length, asking them to get out of the CPCCA. The Bloc publicly pulled its two MPs from it last March (not because of my letter, I'm sure, but anyway...). Messrs. Layton and Mulcair never responded. All I got was [url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/national-news/bloc-qu%C3%A9b%C3%A9cois-pulls... pathetic reply from Judy Wasylycia-Leis[/url].

 

Snert Snert's picture

I think it's abominable to consider legal action against anyone for boycotting products, or suggesting others do so.  No product has a right to my money.

But "relabeling" products on store shelves?  Ya, I can't really see any kind of legal precedent to allow me to put stickers on something that's not mine and that I'm not purchasing.  I'm not shocked (nor do I disapprove) if the law steps in to say that's not OK. 

mahmud

Snert wrote:

I think it's abominable to consider legal action against anyone for boycotting products, or suggesting others do so.  No product has a right to my money.

But "relabeling" products on store shelves?  Ya, I can't really see any kind of legal precedent to allow me to put stickers on something that's not mine and that I'm not purchasing.  I'm not shocked (nor do I disapprove) if the law steps in to say that's not OK. 

Snert,

Happy 2nd anniversary as a Babbler.

Please do not obscur or help to obscure the real issue: Most of the people were prosecuted (and some already penalized with fines) in France over calling for BDS. Putting a sticker on a bottle (someone else's property thus illegal, as you implied) is not the real issue here.

"Parmi les militants poursuivis par la justice :
- Stéphane Hessel, co-rédacteur de la Déclaration universelle des droits de l’homme, est poursuivi pour avoir appelé les citoyens à réagir, après l’échec des gouvernements au sujet de Gaza"   http://www.ldh-toulon.net/spip.php?article4116

My translation: Amongs activists prosecuted by the justice (system):

Stéphane Hesse, co-drafter of the UDHR is sued for having called upon citizens  to react with solidarity initiatives with th epeople of Gaza in the face of the failure of governments to deal with what is going on there, in the same manner people reacted to racial segregation in the USA and the Apartheid regime in SA.   

Iwant Liberty

I guess hate speech laws swing both ways. The best approach is to not constrain speech at all. Let anyone say whatever he or she wants. Then we will get to know who are friends are, and who our enemies are. Otherwise the language goes underground, or else people are subject to the random whims of bureaucrats (which is the definition of tyranny). Of course we have a duty to call-out and condemn those that preach death or genocide. The truth will expose the darkness.
In the west, "hate" speech is simply another term for "politically incorrect". But the laws are applied like the future of society depended upon the persecution of harmless citizens. It is pure corruption.
In my view, speech that is full of "hate" against one group or another has resulted in tragedy only when employed or supported by governments (e.g., Nazi Germany, Rwanda, the list goes on).

Snert Snert's picture

Quote:

Happy 2nd anniversary as a Babbler.

 

Hehe. Thanks... I never even noticed!

 

Quote:

Please do not obscur or help to obscure the real issue: Most of the people were prosecuted (and some already penalized with fines) in France over calling for BDS. Putting a sticker on a bottle (someone else's property thus illegal, as you implied) is not the real issue here.

 

Here's my 2¢, then I'll leave it: I don't think it's me that obscures the real issue, I think it's choosing to enmesh legitimate political action with illegal actions that does that. Like the anti-globalism activist who smashes a window, it muddies the waters. If they're arrested, are they being arrested for opposing globalization? Or for vandalism? If they dont smash a window, and they're arrested anyway, it's clear.

 

Anyone arrested for nothing more than proposing that citizens or governments should boycott Israel is, clearly, being targetted solely for their political views. But if that's combined with arrest-able acts, it's a lot harder to say.

 

 

Stargazer

Oh FFS, putting a sticker on something should get you arrested? Snert, what law and order episode do you live in? and since when should the arrest of people for putting stickers on things be a remotely progressive stance?

Snert Snert's picture

So you figure that if you sell a product, anyone who wants to, for any reason they wish, should be able to relabel your product?

Gee, that makes sense.

I'm not suggesting it should get you five to ten in the big house, but c'mon.  The end doesn't always justify the means, does it??

Sean in Ottawa

Interesting-- I had heard the term "New anti-Semitic" from some Jewish friends years ago. They meant it to mean bigotry against the other Semitic peoples such as Palestinians-- Arabs. They were using it to refer in part to the behavior of Israel in some contexts. I do believe they would be upset at this new particular definition used to go the other way. I've lost touch so I can't ask them now but I wonder what they think of this term now.

Sean in Ottawa

I am sure you can't legally put stickers on products you want to have boycotted-- but it should not be called anti-Semitic.

I don't remember hearing of people doing that to South African products back in the day although I think that people might have done it if they thought of it. I remember as a child really liking canned fruits but we could not buy them often because they were mostly from RSA and my parents were boycotting them. They were happy when Canada stopped buying them because that opened the door to more choices from countries we were not boycotting.

al-Qa'bong

Quote:

Interesting-- I had heard the term "New anti-Semitic" from some Jewish friends years ago. They meant it to mean bigotry against the other Semitic peoples such as Palestinians-- Arabs.

I agree with this approach - bigotry against Arabs in general is the new antisemitism.  It's as accepted now as commonplace racism against Jews or other groups used to be back in the early 20th century.

When Bernie Farber used to haunt these threads, he'd claim criticism of Israel was the new antisemitism.

Snert Snert's picture

Quote:
I am sure you can't legally put stickers on products you want to have boycotted-- but it should not be called anti-Semitic.

 

I agree.

Sean in Ottawa

For the record-- the charges would likely be mischief or vandalism-- but you would ahve to do a lot of stickering to be able to cause enough damage to want them.

That said you could certainly put up posters outside stores on lamp-posts etc listing products to boycott... We often have boycott lists here in our office.

Green Grouch

Full text of the Ottawa Protocol on anti-Semitism:

http://www.cbc.ca/politics/insidepolitics/2010/11/for-the-record-the-full-text-of-the-ottawa-protocol.html

Highly predictable Jason Kenney news release: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/media/releases/2010/2010-11-10.asp

Interesting that the full report from the Canadian "Parliamentary" "Coalition" to Combat Anti-Semitism wasn't released at this conference; spring 2011 seems to be O'Malley's prediction. I'd expected it to be released now and I wonder if public reaction to the protocol will be used as a litmus test for report wording, or future legislation, aimed at painting criticism of Israel as hate speech.

 

 

Cueball Cueball's picture

The day it becomes illegal in this country to say that Arik Sharon is a Nazi, is the day we can rightly call Jason Kenny a Nazi.

mahmud

Green Grouch wrote:

Full text of the Ottawa Protocol on anti-Semitism:

http://www.cbc.ca/politics/insidepolitics/2010/11/for-the-record-the-full-text-of-the-ottawa-protocol.html

Highly predictable Jason Kenney news release: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/media/releases/2010/2010-11-10.asp

 

 

 

Thank you. The above link seems no longer functional. So here is the (updated?) text:

http://www.cbc.ca/politics/insidepolitics/2010/11/for-the-record-the-ful...

 

I would like to suggest a more suitable name for the CPCCA : The Ottawa Cabal.  ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabal ).

I wonder who are the "representatives" of the 'various' faiths who attended the vomit-in sessions of this cabal?

 

Fidel

Freedom is grand. We are free as long as we do as we're told.

Ripple

*Coalition plans to push governments, universities to adopt definition of
anti-Semitism that outlaw criticism of Israel *

Free speech advocates warn that Canadians face severe restrictions on
freedom of expression if the definition of antisemitism recommended in
Ottawa this week is adopted.

The definition of antisemitism advocated by the self-styled
Inter-Parliamentary Coalition to Combat Anti-Semitism (ICCA) would outlaw
legitimate political opinion as a means to silence criticism of Israel and
its treatment of Palestinians.

According to the Seriously Free Speech Committee, if governments and other
bodies adopt the proposed definition contained in the Ottawa Protocol, the
following statements would be condemned or criminalized:

-

I consider Israel's bombardment of Gaza in 2009 that resulted in the
killing of 1,400 Palestinians, many of them children, to be a crime against
humanity.
-

Israel's apartheid policies make it an appropriate target for an
international campaign of boycott, divestment and sanctions.

"Whether or not Canadians agree with these examples, surely they agree that
these are political opinions that should be protected under our Charter of
Rights and Freedoms," said Brian Campbell, co-chair of the committee formed
to encourage free and open debate about the contentious issues in the Middle
East.

The committee is particularly concerned that the ICCA plans to target
universities to silence students who have organized increasingly popular
Israel Apartheid Weeks and supported the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions
Movement against the State of Israel, similar to the international campaign
waged against South Africa.

"Israel's supporters are using charges of a new antisemitism to intimidate
people who describe Israel as an apartheid state or who encourage others to
boycott Israeli products," said Campbell. "The ICCA and its Canadian
off-shoot, the CPCCA, are essentially lobbyists for Israel."

According to the committee, Prime Minister Stephen Harper's pledge to the
ICCA conference that Canada would defend Israel no matter what the cost and
no matter what Israel has done, is a chilling sign that the government will
impose the new expanded definition of antisemitism contained in the Ottawa
Protocol.

Campbell challenged the ICCA's claim that there has been a dramatic increase
in antisemitism that warrants restricting Canadians right to free speech.
"Their alarming statistics rely on reported incidents, not incidents that
were investigated and determined to be discriminatory or hateful." B'nai
Brith's annual surveys of antisemitism have been widely criticized for their
poor methodology and exaggerated claims.

According to Joanne Naiman, retired Ryerson Univeristy professor and SFSC
member, "There is no evidence of an increase in antisemitism in Canada. In
fact, statistics show that anti-Semitism is at an all-time low and Jewish
leaders agree that Jews in Canada do well and feel safe." She concluded that
the ICCA and its Canadian counterpart have been inflating and distorting the
statistics to justify a crackdown on critics of Israel.

"The Ottawa Protocol, in true Orwellian fashion, is trying to blur the lines
between true antisemitism and criticism of the Israeli state," she said.
"The protocol says it is antisemitic to hold Jews collectively responsible
for actions of the State of Israel. In fact, it is the Israeli government
that repeatedly tries to conflate the State of Israel with Jewish people.
For example, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu recently referred to
himself as ‘leader of the Jewish people.' "

We must all be vigilant against real antisemitism, discrimination against
Jews simply because they are Jews, but we must not allow people to use
charges of antisemitism to limit free speech and to stifle criticisms of
violations of the human rights of the Palestinian people, she said.

For more information, contact:

Brian Campbell:  campbell@vcn.bc.ca

Joanne Naiman:  jnaiman@soc.ryerson.ca 

Babblebox

I stand to be corrected here.

My personal belief is there are too many lies being told by government officials to the Canadian public.Afghanistan for one is a losing battle that's goin to last forever because we are there for the wrong reason. We are made to believe we are there to help democratize the country when we really are there to protect the zionists the christian evengelicals and the Jews. (The people who believe Jesus Christ will return on Mount Zion in person) I which I thing that will never happen and God didn't give them anything. There like our native people here in Canada, they want it all for themselves in the meantime mooching at the public purse. These chameleons change into all kinds of things no? Our own Stephen Harper Prime Minister of Canada don't give a piece of coon shit about the Afghan people, he's there to appease the Americans who want to control the world by proxy with the Zionists so the Muslims or Jew haters) won't wipe them of the map. No? Look I need to be taken to task on this subject and know if i'm a racist or not cause that's what I feel, if you think i'm wrong by all means tell me to my face and if your opinion is valuable I may change my mind about all this. In the old days the kings were ahead of the army and were likely die in battle. To-day they are far behind the lines hiding like cowards giving orders that maime and kill, while other people (soldiers) do their dirty work No? Now About our troops in Afghanistan we are there for something other than democracy and if you go and occupy another country be prepared to die cause if you live by the gun your probably going to die by it. I say get out of there boys before it's too late That's all for now.

Polunatic2

On the issue of  boycotts, there's a "famous" case in US labour history - the boycott of Buck's Stoves and Ranges. There's nothing new about criminalizing boycotts. 

A History of the International Union of Timberworkers: 1911-1923

Quote:
The antipathy of the Supreme Court was apparent in the judgments of the Iron Molders International Union versus Buck’s Stove and Range Company and the United Hatters’ Union versus E.W. Lowe. When the Iron Molders union declared a boycott of Buck’s Stoves the AFL placed the company on its "We Do Not Patronize" list. The courts ruled, in 1907, that the AFL must remove Buck’s from the list as it restrained interstate commerce under the Sherman Act. Gompers refused, citing first amendment free speech rights. In turn the courts found Gompers and two associates guilty of contempt and sentenced them to fines and jail terms. The United Hatters’ Union in Danbury, Connecticut, called a boycott to which Lowe objected based on the Sherman Act provisions regarding restrictions of interstate trade. The courts’ final decision, handed down December 18, 1913, found in Lowe’s favor and levied treble damages against the Hatters’ union. Furthermore, the court declared the assets of union members sizable. This ruling severely restricted the ability of unions to boycott, one of their most powerful economic weapons. The only boycott’s that remained legal effected only intrastate trade.

In the end, Gompers didn't go to jail but it was close. 

Green Grouch

Well heck, "Babblebox", I counted three instances of in your face, nasty racism in your cute little post, so I guess you do "stand to be corrected". And I think you know it.  Ain't it grand... Kenney and co are trying to make sure that anti-Semitism of the authentic kind is dangerously dumbed down for political gain and here we have someone conveniently spouting racist conspiracy theories on this board.

oldgoat

Well Babblebox, I don't know, or really care if you're racist, but your post sure as hell is.  Consider yourself corrected, and banned.

Cytizen H

wondering if anyone knows of Jewish groups in Canada that are fighting back against this travesty. I would like to help out.

Cueball Cueball's picture
contrarianna

oldgoat wrote:

Well Babblebox, I don't know, or really care if you're racist, but your post sure as hell is.  Consider yourself corrected, and banned.

Thanks, oldgoat.

I flagged this post as racist and antisemitic yesterday, hours after it was posted, yet it is only today after Green Grouch's accurate remarks that it seemed to be noticed.
Is there a way of bringing such egregious crap to the attention of currently online mods any quicker?
Incidentally, the same poster apparently still has another account.

oldgoat

The other mods are at a staff retreat in Vancouver, as I would also be had I not resigned.  I'm the only one around for the nonce.  I saw yours, as well as a few others flags on this dude. That's still the quickest way.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Thomas Mulcair's remarks at the conference were a shameful capitulation to the pro-Zionist hysteria that prevailed:

Kady O'Malley, in her liveblog from the conference on November 9, wrote:
Switching to English after explaining that his remarks were originally prepared in French, but the simultaneous translation service doesn't appear to extend to this room, so he'll carry on in English, he [Mulcair] gives a shoutout to Irwin Cotler -- who was, it seems, his law professor at McGill, and notes that John Humphrey was *also* an alumnus, which is why it is particularly interesting that McGill takes part in AAW [Anti-Apartheid Week].

[12:33 p.m.] Mulcair gives a few examples of antisemitism in and around his riding of Outremont, and stresses that, when it comes to AAW, he -- Mulcair -- doesn't believe in the argument that the debate shouldn't take place: he wants to confront it head on, and segues to an anecdote about a participant in a pro-flotilla event who confessed to him -- Mulcair -- that he was shocked when another member of the group suggested protesting outside a local business owned by someone in the Jewish community. It was, Mulcair notes, an example of the "Any Jew Will Do" attitude; he recalls similar hostility against an NDP candidate who wore a head scarf. Which is why, he says, it's important to remember than intolerance can flow through -- or against -- any race, ethnic or religious group or culture. He also doesn't think much of the excuse that someone is "anti-Zionist", not antisemitic, and vows, once again, to face that debate head on, at McGill and everywhere else.


[url=http://www.cbc.ca/politics/insidepolitics/2010/11/liveblog-ndp-deputy-le...

.

Terry Greenberg wrote:

Did you hear Prime Minister Stephen Harper's inane remarks at the Ottawa Conference where he equated all "anti-Israel rhetoric" with anti-Semitism? Were you embarrassed and ashamed that a Canadian leader would say that?

Did you hear him say that anti-Semitism is a major and growing problem in Canada? Do you believe it?

Do you think it was insulting to Canadians for him to say that if it is not true?

Are you going to let them insult you?

Are you going to let the signatories of the Ottawa Protocol define you as an anti-Semite?

Are you going to let them silence "anti-Semites" like you in the media, on the Internet, and on university campuses?

Are you going to let them tell you what you can or cannot say (or think) about the Middle East?

If not, what are you going to do about it?

– [url=http://rabble.ca/news/2010/11/musings-and-bemusings-ottawa-protocol]rabb...

Unionist

Snert wrote:

So you figure that if you sell a product, anyone who wants to, for any reason they wish, should be able to relabel your product?

Gee, that makes sense.

I'm not suggesting it should get you five to ten in the big house, but c'mon.  The end doesn't always justify the means, does it??

Do you think a [url=http://bdsmovement.net/?q=node/784]€1000 fine is sufficent[/url] to drive home the message to these hooligans that they must never draft fruit juice bottles into their BDS campaign?

 

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

[url=http://rabble.ca/columnists/2010/12/postscript-new-mccarthyism]Murray Dobbin[/url] writes at rabble.ca:

Quote:
Attending this new-McCarthyism event were: David Johnston, the new governor-general, Peter Milliken, the speaker of the House of Commons, the speaker of the Senate, Liberal leader Michael Ignatieff, and last but not least Thomas Mulcair, the most aggressive pro-Israeli MP in the NDP caucus. Given that this was a private affair (even though they deliberately mislead people with their name -- the Canadian "Parliamentary" Coalition), I suppose it would have been difficult for Jack Layton to stop him.

The problem is that Jack Layton actually sent Mulcair to the event to represent the NDP, a fact confirmed to me by Layton, but never revealed to the NDP caucus. ...

What possessed Layton to send Mulcair to this offensive gathering is anyone's guess but given that he went begging forgiveness to the Israeli ambassador for remarks made by MP Libby Davies, it should not come as a surprise. Many thought -- hoped -- that it was a mere panic reaction that he regretted. But this is far worse than just having a couple of NDPers in the CPCCA. This is an implicit endorsement of the goals of that organization, including the definition of the new anti-semitism provided by Stephen Harper: "Harnessing disparate anti-American, anti-semitic and anti-western ideologies, it targets the Jewish people by targeting the Jewish homeland."

laine lowe laine lowe's picture

<thud> head bangs desk.

Another on the list of many disappointments.

al-Qa'bong

Grrrr.

 

What's the Green Party position on this?

Unionist

As I reported, the Bloc pulled their two members out last February, publicy charging the CPCCA with bias. There's no direct issue for the Green Party, as they have no MPs, and I've never heard anything from them on the issue of Israel.

As for Mulcair, I stated in summer that I will not vote or work for him again, because of his vicious attack against Libby Davies. If suckholing to Zionists is more important to him than the support of leftists, he can go to hell and stay there.

Besides the Bloc's (small) contribution on this issue, we have the courageous example of Québec solidaire's lone elected member Amir Khadir - the most popular politician in Québec:

[url=http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Khadir+urges+boycott+shoe+store/3997... Khadir urges boycott of shoe store[/url]

Quote:

Quebec solidaire leader Amir Khadir made no apology yesterday for asking people to boycott a family-owned shoe store in his riding because it sells shoes made in Israel.

"Just because a business is in my riding, I am not going to abandon my principles," Khadir, the National Assembly member for Mercier, said in a phone interview yesterday.

Khadir took part in a demonstration last Saturday in front of Le Marcheur on St. Denis St., handing out flyers and asking customers to boycott the shop until it stops selling Israeli-made shoes.

The demonstration was organized by Palestinian and Jewish Unity, a Montreal based human rights group that advocates for the right of Palestinians to live in safety.

I'm proud to have voted for him 10 years ago when he ran for the Bloc in my riding (federally). Unless the NDP picks a new candidate, or Mulcair sees some kind of light in the heavens, I will be voting Bloc and QS in the next elections.

If what Dobbin says about Layton is factual, it's very disturbing.

 

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

Unionist wrote:
If what Dobbin says about Layton is factual, it's very disturbing.

 

Yup.

Dodger718

Wow, so in the middle of a recession, an MNA actually encourages people NOT to shop at an independent, family-owned business in his riding...

Unionist

Dodger718 wrote:

Wow, so in the middle of a recession, an MNA actually encourages people NOT to shop at an independent, family-owned business in his riding...

Yeah, what an enemy of families he is! I hear he also eats children and kittens.

By the way, Dodgy, you think we're in the "middle of a recession"? Why not audit Economics 101?

Or you just dislike Amir Khadir because he has the courage to stand up and participate publicly in the movement to boycott Israel?

Yeah, maybe that's it...

 

Dodger718

I don't live in Montreal so know very little about him. I think encouraging people NOT to shop at a store in his riding in an economic climate which may or may not technically be a "recession" but which I have no doubt many small businesses are finding difficult is pretty terrible.  All because the store owner has made a completely apolitical decision to carry a brand of shoes that are made by an Israeli company...alongside other options which were possibly made by child labour under terrible conditions in oppressive regimes but THAT obviously gets a free pass...

"Courage", indeed.

Unionist

Dodger718 wrote:

I don't live in Montreal so know very little about him.

I do live in Montréal, and I told you he hates families and eats children and kittens. Pay attention.

Quote:
I think encouraging people NOT to shop at a store in his riding in an economic climate which may or may not technically be a "recession" but which I have no doubt many small businesses are finding difficult is pretty terrible.

The message is that if you want to survive in this economic climate, don't support the warmongering apartheid state of Israel. Is there something about "boycotts" you have difficulty with? Once Isreal conforms to international standards of legality and humanity, I myself will buy a pair of their second-rate shoes!

Quote:
All because the store owner has made a completely apolitical decision to carry a brand of shoes that are made by an Israeli company...

The store owner is a friend of yours?

Quote:
alongside other options which were possibly made by child labour under terrible conditions in oppressive regimes but THAT obviously gets a free pass...

What products, regimes, and Canadian retail outlets are you thinking of? Do you want to organize a boycott of child labour users? I'd support that.

You won't be giving a free pass to the Israeli aggressors and murderers, though, will you?

Dodger718

I'll hold companies respnsible for the standards that they employ, whether with regards to paying their workers a fair wage, having them work in decent conditions, treating the environment with care, etc. I don't believe in holding companies responsible for the policies of their countries's governments, which they may or not support.

I'm Canadian, and live in Toronto. I happen to think that my mayor and prime minister suck. I strongly disagree with many of their policies. I'd be pretty taken aback if someone were to refuse to use my services because he dislikes Harper or Ford's policies, which I have nothing to do with.

My in-laws live in Israel. Do they not have a right to earn a living or export products to Montreal because of the country in which they live?

But if you want to talk about countries as a whole, just looking at the stuff on my desk right now, my computer, iPod, headphones and coffee mug are all made in China. My eyeglasses are made in Italy, my sunglasses in the United States, my sketchbook in France and my coat in Bangladesh. There can be legitimate criticisms of each of these countries and their respective governments. Let me know know when Amir Khadir will be protesting the businesses that sell those products.

Also, let me know when you'll lead a campaign against Khadir. After all, his country of origin (Iran) has a pretty shitty human rights record when it comes to gays and women. Just because HE is progressive, shouldn't we be consistent and boycott him given where he comes from?

Unionist

Dodger718 wrote:
I don't believe in holding companies responsible for the policies of their countries's governments, which they may or not support.

You would have been a fine ally when we were boycotting South Africa.

Quote:
I'd be pretty taken aback if someone were to refuse to use my services because he dislikes Harper or Ford's policies, which I have nothing to do with.

What if Afghans and their supporters called for a boycott of Canadian products until Canada withdrew from Afghanistan? Would you be "taken aback" at that?

Quote:
My in-laws live in Israel. Do they not have a right to earn a living or export products to Montreal because of the country in which they live?

I have blood relatives in Israel. They can do whatever they please. But if they are silent or complicit in their country's actions, they should not be "taken aback" if there's an economic price to pay. Indeed, maybe when their standard of living starts to drop, they'll start wondering whether maybe they shouldn't be demanding their government pull out of the Occupied Territories and repeal its Judeo-centric laws and other atrocities that they live under.

Quote:
But if you want to talk about countries as a whole, just looking at the stuff on my desk right now, my computer, iPod, headphones and coffee mug are all made in China. My eyeglasses are made in Italy, my sunglasses in the United States, my sketchbook in France and my coat in Bangladesh. There can be legitimate criticisms of each of these countries and their respective governments. Let me know know when Amir Khadir will be protesting the businesses that sell those products.

Let me know when the oppressed peoples of those countries, via hundreds of civil organizations, academic, trade union, etc., launch an international appeal for boycott, divestment, and sanctions against their oppressors, in a context of violation of international law and defiance of the community of nations. Then Amir Khadir, and I by his side, will be marching in the front ranks of those protests. In the meantime, we'll just have to save our outrage for the worst pariah state in the world - Israel.

 

Dodger718

For those who speak French, Richard Martineau of Le Journal de Montreal, had a follow-up and said that he and his wife went there and bought shoes to show support for the merchant. The business reported that their sales volume was UP 500% since the reports of the boycott.

I remember here in Toronto, people called for a boycott of Israeli wines from the LCBO and, in response, people went and bought every bottle of Israeli wine in the Summerhill store (a big one) in about an hour.

My wife and I have a baby on the way and could use some extra cash. If only I could arrange for these guys to boycott MY business...

Unionist

Dodger718 wrote:

My wife and I have a baby on the way ...

That would be your wife, Dodgy - and that's not all you don't understand about participating on a board where people cherish the truth, justice, and peace.

 

Stargazer

Isn't that a sweet story Dodge. Really thank you for your contribution. You sound a lot like another very pro-Israel fellow who was recently tossed from babble.

Unionist

Stargazer, your sense of smell is impeccable as always.

Amir Khadir - the most popular politician in Québec - is weathering well in the face of obscene Zionist and neocon slanders, and sticking to his guns as always.

For the information of those who spew Israel lobby talking points, [url=http://www.assnat.qc.ca/fr/travaux-parlementaires/assemblee-nationale/39... was Amir Khadir earlier this year[/url] leading the National Assembly in condemning the latest example of political arrests, tortures, and executions in his birth country of Iran:

Quote:

M. Khadir: M. le Président, je demande le consentement de la Chambre pour présenter, conjointement avec la ministre de la Culture, des Communications et de la Condition féminine, la députée de Rosemont, la députée de Lotbinière, le député de La Peltrie et le député des Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, la motion suivante:

«Que l'Assemblée nationale condamne l'arrestation et la détention arbitraire depuis janvier dernier du réalisateur iranien Jafar Panahi, président du jury du Festival des films du monde de Montréal en 2009, ainsi que la recrudescence très inquiétante de la répression, de la torture et des exécutions politiques en Iran, comme en fait foi l'exécution sommaire de cinq opposants dimanche matin -- dimanche dernier -- en Iran, dont 4 Kurdes et une femme qui avaient pour accusation "l'inimitié à l'égard de Dieu".»

And, in a dodgy coincidence, [url=http://communiques.gouv.qc.ca/gouvqc/communiques/GPQF/Decembre2010/21/c7... press release today by Amir Khadir's party[/url] condemning the repression of the theocratic regime and calling for broad opposition among Quebeckers.

I am proud, as a Jew, to stand with those like Khadir, who never fear to attack what is offensive to humanity - especially when it is on the hands of "their own" community or "homeland".

Merowe

Dodger718 wrote:

For those who speak French, Richard Martineau of Le Journal de Montreal, had a follow-up and said that he and his wife went there and bought shoes to show support for the merchant. The business reported that their sales volume was UP 500% since the reports of the boycott.

I remember here in Toronto, people called for a boycott of Israeli wines from the LCBO and, in response, people went and bought every bottle of Israeli wine in the Summerhill store (a big one) in about an hour.

My wife and I have a baby on the way and could use some extra cash. If only I could arrange for these guys to boycott MY business...

...or at least boycott yer frickin' brain.

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