Conservatives, NDP, Liberals unanimously tell Ukraine what to do

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DLivings

Rebecca West wrote:
Unionist wrote:

So that makes several babblers that apparently have a problem with this statement:

Quote:
Canadians should join their own voices and tell our government, and our so-called "opposition" parties, that we oppose any interference, whatsoever, in the internal affairs of the sovereign Ukrainian nation.

Harper has already made it crystal clear on our behalf which side "Canada" is on. Isn't it important that we speak for ourselves - or does anyone agree with him?

 

Yes , it is important that we speak for ourselves. I have no issue with your position, but I do object to the false dichotomy you've created by stating that all Canadians should fall in line with your stated position and if they don't, they support the position you oppose. That doesn't encourage individual thought or action and discourages a nuanced discussion that refuses to fall in line with either position. The issues are too complex to simply accept or reject only two of many particular opinions and views on the current crisis in the Ukraine.

Well-spoken...   it reminds me of the unanimity that surrounded the invasion of Iraq in 2003....   if you're not with us, your against us...   Or the Macarthy Senate hearings in the early 50's in the US...  if you don't accept the party line, then you're a Communist.

NDPP

@Stockholm

That's rich coming from a benificiary of invasions, occupations and genocides foreign and domestic in one of the white imperial fatlands...It never was 'just an internal Ukrainian matter'. Did you miss the Americans' phone call? Had the agreement made not been criminally breached by the West's proxy wackos power play in Lviv, this wouldn't be happening now. As it is there's arguably more Ukrainians that would approve of Russian occupation than that of Pravy Sektor and the NATO putschists in Lviv. Hence hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians pouring out into Russia and the Crimea.  Please remember this was a coup not an election and much becomes clear. At least the NDP, which likes to both run with the rabbits and hunt with the hounds simultaenously in such matters has been outed and forced to 'pick a side' for a change..

Bacchus

Ahh so protests by the people is a coup and should be crushed. Got it.  Was this what everyone was saying when the former regime was shooting protesters?

 

NDPP

Bacchus wrote:

Ahh so protests by the people is a coup and should be crushed. Got it.  Was this what everyone was saying when the former regime was shooting protesters?

 

As yet there is no conclusive evidence as to who fired first. A number of varying reports are circulating. As to the legal issues around the coup, see Prof Francis Boyle's analysis, posted in the Ukraine thread. Meanwhile here is some MSM which includes video of NDP Leader Tom Mulcair and his pro Kyiv, anti-Russia position channeling Harper's own. All the empire's dogs bark the same on this one..

http://globalnews.ca/news/1181817/ukraine-leader-urges-russias-putin-to-...

MegB

NDPP wrote:

I just posted the latest CBC report to the Ukraine thread. In contravention of international law, Canada is with the illegally installed Nazi regime with the usual imperialist collaborators, faux 'progressives' and NDP in support...

This is the kind of inflammatory and pointless rhetoric espoused by the old guard Left, who continued to support 'Uncle Joe' Stalin, until his murderous paranoia and vindictiveness became impossible to ignore. I find your views so narrow, dogmatic and reactionary that they are rendered meaningless. It is disappointing to see reasoned debate replaced by ideologically-based ranting.

Slumberjack

You're just upset that the NDP and Ukrainian Nazi's are being mentioned in the same sentence.  But can we have a little perspective here?  It's Larry, Fuzz Face, and Moe who are the dogmatic reactionaries, and then there are people who comment on that.

MegB

Slumberjack wrote:

You're just upset that the NDP and Ukrainian Nazi's are being mentioned in the same sentence.  But can we have a little perspective here?  It's Larry, Fuzz Face, and Moe who are the dogmatic reactionaries, and then there are people who comment on that.

:D

6079_Smith_W

I don't know why anyone is worried about a western invasion. Seems to me all they have to do is make another phone call. That's obviously far more powerful and provocative than Russian fighter jets and tanks.

And this:

NDPP wrote:

That's rich coming from a benificiary of invasions, occupations and genocides foreign and domestic in one of the white imperial fatlands..

Gotta love it: tearing your hair out over Nazis because they shut down anyone who doesn't think like them and isolate people based on who they are and where they come from

(not to mention throwing the "Nazi" appellation around indiscriminately)

Then turning around and using those same personal attacks to label and isolate others when they speak.

 

 

Brachina

 I admit its the West has it flaws, but right now its not the west the Ukraine has to worry about, its Russia with its troops on the ground in Crimea that they have to worry about. Imperialism isn't exclusive to the West. 

 Russia has no right to annex Crimea, if Crimea wants to seperate, they can have a peaceful referubdum like Quebec

MegB

Without a doubt, the 'new' Ukraine government is right-wing and only too happy to reap the bounty of closer ties to the uber-capitalist EU, but it'll doubtless be simply a heavy-handed authoritarian government of a different favour than the previous one. The West will continue to use "strong words" to condemn Russia, and Russia will continue to protect its military assets and hegemony, and nothing much will change.

DLivings

Rebecca West wrote:

 

Without a doubt, the 'new' Ukraine government is right-wing and only too happy to reap the bounty of closer ties to the uber-capitalist EU, but it'll doubtless be simply a heavy-handed authoritarian government of a different favour than the previous one. The West will continue to use "strong words" to condemn Russia, and Russia will continue to protect its military assets and hegemony, and nothing much will change.

That, about sums it up.

Stockholm

NDPP wrote:

I just posted the latest CBC report to the Ukraine thread. In contravention of international law, Canada is with the illegally installed Nazi regime with the usual imperialist collaborators, faux 'progressives' and NDP in support...

Is there a babble policy against trivializing Hitler and the Holocaust by using the word "Nazi" describe any regime or political party you don't approve of? If not maybe there should be!

quizzical

i read a whack  load of stuff about the region yesterday as i knew nothing. still don't know much but i've come from your brachina pov to realizing  it's a gray zone with Crimea not even being a part of Ukraine until fairly recent history when the shoe banger (forgot his name and i just heard of him yesterday) gave it to the Ukraine.

 

Stockholm

Slumberjack wrote:

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/oeil/popups/summary.do?id=1239823&t=e&l=en

Quote:
Parliament goes on to express concern about the rising nationalistic sentiment in Ukraine, expressed in support for the Svoboda Party, which, as a result, is one of the two new parties to enter the Verkhovna Rada. It recalls that racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic views go against the EU's fundamental values and principles and therefore appeals to pro-democratic parties in the Verkhovna Rada not to associate with, endorse or form coalitions with this party.

Hmm..."racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic views" - that sounds like a perfect description of Putin and the government of Russia as well - choose your poison!

Slumberjack

I won't be choosing either, but clarity as to what we're actually referring to doesn't seem like too much to ask.

Slumberjack

Stockholm wrote:
Is there a babble policy against trivializing Hitler and the Holocaust by using the word "Nazi" describe any regime or political party you don't approve of? If not maybe there should be!

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/oeil/popups/summary.do?id=1239823&t=e&l=en

Quote:
Parliament goes on to express concern about the rising nationalistic sentiment in Ukraine, expressed in support for the Svoboda Party, which, as a result, is one of the two new parties to enter the Verkhovna Rada. It recalls that racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic views go against the EU's fundamental values and principles and therefore appeals to pro-democratic parties in the Verkhovna Rada not to associate with, endorse or form coalitions with this party.

The Dark Side of the Ukraine Revolt

Quote:
Svoboda –which currently has 36 deputies in the 450-member Ukrainian parliament—began life in the mid-1990s as the Social National Party of the Ukraine, but its roots lie in World War II, when Ukrainian nationalists and Nazis found common ground in the ideology of anti-communism and anti-Semitism. In April, 1943, Dr. Otto von Wachter, the Nazi commander of Galicia—the name for the western Ukraine—turned the First Division of the Ukrainian National Army into the 14 Grenadier Division of the Waffen SS, the so-called “Galicia Division.”

Svoboda has always had a soft spot for the Galicia Division and one of its parliament members, Oleg Pankevich, took part in a ceremony last April honoring the unit. Pankevich joined with a priest of Ukrainian Orthodox Church near Lviv to celebrate the unit’s 70th anniversary and re-bury some of the Division’s dead.

“I was horrified to see photographs…of young Ukrainians wearing the dreaded SS uniform with swastikas clearly visible on their helmets as they carried caskets of members of this Nazi unit, lowered them into the ground, and fired gun salutes in their honor,” World Jewish Congress President Ronald Lauder wrote in a letter to the Patriarch of the Ukrainian church.

Stockholm

The anti-government demonstrations in Ukraine are from a very broad range of civil society...just because one group is on the far right doesnt mean that the entire movement can be called "Nazi"...and there are just as many horrific fascistic elements on the pro-Russian side - who are also xenophobic, homophobic, anti-semitic etc... One thing i do know - if I was a gay, Jewish, small "l" liberal-minded Ukrainian - I'd rather take my chances with a government that wants to join the EU and allow the European Court of Human Rights to have a say over Ukrainian human rights policy than be at the mercy of Vladimir Putin and his neo-fascist thugs.

Slumberjack

Fascist-lite then?  Normally a whiff of Nazism usually does it in terms of something or another not being anyone's particular cup of tea, but I'll grant you these are strange times indeed.

MegB

Perhaps we can all agree that the labels are pointless distractions and that the actions of groups and individuals and what they mean should be the focus.

As for NDPP's liberal use of the word 'nazi', he's been asked before to not trivialize and dilute its meaning to advance his particular ideological position. We'll just have to wait and see if he wants to push this particular envelope again. At the very least, it's ridiculous to assume, at this early stage, that the 'new' Ukraine government is some monolith of anti-Semitic fascists when the most likely truth is that they represent a wide spectrum of right-wing ideologies.

6079_Smith_W

Brachina wrote:

 Russia has no right to annex Crimea, if Crimea wants to seperate, they can have a peaceful referubdum like Quebec

I'd say it's six of one, half a dozen of the other. Crimea is almost certainly going back to Russia. It's majority is culturally Russian.

And @ Slumberjack.

You're right about "a whiff of Nazism" being enough to do it. Why do you think the term is used as a foil so much? Because it generally shuts down any rational analysis.

MegB

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Brachina wrote:

 Russia has no right to annex Crimea, if Crimea wants to seperate, they can have a peaceful referubdum like Quebec

I'd say it's six of one, half a dozen of the other. Crimea is almost certainly going back to Russia. It's majority is culturally Russian.

Not necessarily. The traditional nation-state is going the way of the dinosaur, sovereign states are increasingly less defined by language and ethnicity. In reality, the biggest threat to the Ukraine from Russia is full-scale invasion. Russian military assets in that region are leased to them by the Ukraine government, so annexing the Crimea alone won't be enough to satisfy them if they suspect the new regime is bloody-minded enough to put up armed resistance to the Crimean annexation.

NDPP

Ukraine Presents Conservatives With Unprecedented Foreign Policy Challenge

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ukraine-presents-conservati...

"When Mr Harper emerged, he issued a statement saying he was recalling the Canadian ambassador in Moscow and had suspended Canada's preparations for the coming G8 summit planned in Sochi, the Russian city that just played host to the Olympic Games.

Around that same time, he spoke with NDP Leader Thomas Mulcair, who told The Globe that Mr Harper said Mr Putin had 'crossed the Rubicon' - a military reference often used to suggest someone passed the point of no return.

Mr Mulcair described his conversation with Mr Harper as 'open' and 'detailed', and said he felt Mr Harper's use of the military reference was spot on."

6079_Smith_W

No it's not absolutely sure, I agree. But the reason I think it's a fait accompli and not entirely unfair is that it was Russian territory (well, since they purged the original inhabitants)  before it became part of Ukraine. And of course, because it is the seat of Russian naval power in the region, so of course they are going to want it.

I'm mainly saying that I'm not among those who think Ukraine's territorial integrity must be preserved at all costs. If this is the price to end the immediate crisis, even if it doesn't look good in the long term so be it. It will be anothe rstory if other parts of eastern Ukraine start moving to separate.

Slumberjack

Well, labels are not exactly pointless if they fit, and it's precisely the actions of groups and individuals that are being situated for what they represent.  This shit is not being made up in other words.  It seems to me that there are certain objections being raised in this respect that bear the all too familiar stench of partisan politics, which comes as no surprise since the NDP have teamed up with other Fascist sympathizer outfits in Ottawa to support the armed takeover of the government of Ukraine, which is being orchestrated with the heavy involvement of elements who appear to especially covet an unapologetic historical and contemporary association with the ideology of Ukraine's WWII occupiers.  Obviously it is quite unfortunate to see it all tied together like this, but this is hardly the most unfortunate thing going on.

6079_Smith_W

Slumberjack wrote:

Well, labels are not exactly pointless if they fit.

Well this really is a topic for another thread, but I will say this. All this talk of Russia being an anti-fascist bulwark is kind of hollow when you consider their main motive was that they saw them as competition. They were more than happy to sit down with Nazis and carve up the pie when it was to their advantage. SO it begs the question of who the greatest collaborationists were. And for all the talk of authoritarianism and anti-semitism, Russia also has a sorry record in that regard.

As far as the current situation, and asking what fits, I agree. Who has imposed authoritarian laws here? Who is putting bullets through people, disappearing, torturing them? And even though it might be fair, who has taken military action?

Oh... and let's not forget the phone calls.

 

Stockholm

Rebecca West wrote:

 

At the very least, it's ridiculous to assume, at this early stage, that the 'new' Ukraine government is some monolith of anti-Semitic fascists when the most likely truth is that they represent a wide spectrum of right-wing ideologies.

I'm not sure that they only represent right-wing ideologies. I'm sure there are moderate small "l"l liberal social democrats who are from the very Ukrainian western part of the country who would like to be part of the EU so they can make common cause with all those nice social democractic parties in the European Parliament. If I lived in Kiev - I think i would tend to say to myself - Let's make Ukraine more like Germany and Sweden and less like Chechnya!

Slumberjack

6079_Smith_W wrote:
You're right about "a whiff of Nazism" being enough to do it. Why do you think the term is used as a foil so much? Because it generally shuts down any rational analysis.

Rational analysis might deign to take stock of the justifiable sensitivities in play by noting that when the Nazis invaded Ukraine in the summer of 1941, nationalist elements of Galicia were the ones drafted into the Auxiliary battalions, and later into the combat formations of the Waffen SS.  One also has to bear in mind that these western regions of Ukraine formed part of the Habsburg Empire, which was allied with Germany during WWI and thus were seen by the WWII occupiers as being of slightly better stock, with the notable exceptions on record, than what was to be encountered as the invading forces advanced eastward.  Which is why a historical perspective is sometimes useful as certain memories recede into the thickness of time, or when what is being referred to as 'rational analysis' skips over important points altogether as they relate to today’s perceptions and realities on the ground.

6079_Smith_W

SJ,

I'm talking about what is happening and who is doing what in Ukraine now, not 70 years ago.

 

MegB

Stockholm wrote:

Rebecca West wrote:

 

At the very least, it's ridiculous to assume, at this early stage, that the 'new' Ukraine government is some monolith of anti-Semitic fascists when the most likely truth is that they represent a wide spectrum of right-wing ideologies.

I'm not sure that they only represent right-wing ideologies. I'm sure there are moderate small "l"l liberal social democrats who are from the very Ukrainian western part of the country who would like to be part of the EU so they can make common cause with all those nice social democractic parties in the European Parliament. If I lived in Kiev - I think i would tend to say to myself - Let's make Ukraine more like Germany and Sweden and less like Chechnya!

Yeah, I agree, there may be some small 'L' liberals in the mix, but we can't know until we get more information that isn't generated by the MSM. You're right to allude to Chechnya, but the history and culture and motivations are different. The Ukraine will never be like Chechnya, but if Russia pushes them as they have Chechnya for at least 150 years, they may breed the kind of freedom fighter/terrorists that they've spawned in Chechnya through their demonstrably stupid policy. One thing the US and Russia still have in common, post Cold War, is the capacity to make the same mistakes, repeatedly, and expect a different outcome each time.

Unionist

6079_Smith_W wrote:

SJ,

I'm talking about what is happening and who is doing what in Ukraine now, not 70 years ago.

Ukrainians, in their thousands, are talking about 70 years ago - yearning for their forebears, their patriotic heroes, the Nazi collaborators of the OUN led by the murderer Bandera. In case you hadn't noticed.

BBC on Jan. 4, 2014 wrote:
Thousands of people in Lviv and Kyiv held torchlight marches on Jan. 1 in honor of the 105th birthday of Ukrainian nationalist Stepan Bandera (1909-1959).

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnUdc2fD9pg]BBC video of Svoboda march[/url]

But I'm quite sure there are some small "l" liberals in the government too, some pro-LGBTQ people, some people whose best friends are Jewish. And in any event, Putin is bad, the West is great, Mulcair agrees with Harper, so all is good.

 

6079_Smith_W

Well here's what some others are talking about right now:

http://www.timesofisrael.com/ukraine-jews-appeal-to-russia-to-stop-aggre...

This one is worth reading right to the end:

http://www.jpost.com/International/Russian-Jewish-leader-urges-silence-o...

http://www.timesofisrael.com/jewish-man-stabbed-in-kiev-in-suspected-ant...

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.568825

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.577356

 

But the conflicting issue of Ukranian nationalism and its past notwithstanding, I think it is important to ask who has in more recent times been shooting people, disappearing them, torturing them? If we're talking about the labels fitting the actions, that is.

 

NDPP

Natalia Vitrenko Gives Webcast in Paris Exposes EU Support for Neo-Nazi Coup in Ukraine

http://larouchepac.com/node/29971

NDPP

People here are welcome to believe and spout whatever nonsense the great western media wurlitzer tells them to. I stand by my assertion that the regime in Kyiv is essentially  neofascist or 'Nazi'. This is an imperialist power-play supported by Canada and by many liberal/left dupes that generally go along with these things nowadays.

I refuse to relinquish my right to call a spade a spade or a fascist a Nazi.  Especially by our own Not-Sees who quite obviously haven't a clue...

Stockholm

If anyone is a neo-Nazi fascist it's Vladimir Putin. The man makes me sick. He is to gay people like what Hitler was to Jews.

NorthReport

Crimea crisis: Putin rules out war but will use force 'as last resort'• We will not go to war with the Ukrainian people, says Putin
• Claims ousting of Ukrainian president was 'coup d'état'
• Yanukovitch 'still legitimate head of state' 
• Pro-Russian troops and Ukrainian soldiers in tense standoff

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/04/crimea-crisis-putin-rule-ou...

6079_Smith_W

NDPP wrote:

 I stand by my assertion that the regime in Kyiv is essentially  neofascist or 'Nazi'.

So what's your evidence? What do you base that on other than people telling you it's a Nazi coup (and the accusation is "Nazi" and "anti-semitic", not just fascist - though I'd like to hear evidence of that too)?

I think it's kind of curious, considering that the new prime minister is himself part Jewish, as are some of the oligarchs the govenrment has called in to help stabilize the country (read: not piss off the eastern region)

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/04/who-governing-ukraine-olexa...

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a99fc964-a189-11e3-a29e-00144feab7de.html#axzz...

What I see is a government made up different, and in some cases conflicted groups which have had to come together.

For that matter, what do you know about Svoboda, their power base and rise to power (which Yanukovich was partly responsible for, and has given him an easy scapegoat)?

 

Unionist

Stockholm, on March 3 wrote:
Is there a babble policy against trivializing Hitler and the Holocaust by using the word "Nazi" describe any regime or political party you don't approve of? If not maybe there should be!

Stockholm, on March 4 wrote:
If anyone is a neo-Nazi fascist it's Vladimir Putin. The man makes me sick. He is to gay people like what Hitler was to Jews.

Stockholm, on March 5 wrote:
_________________________

 

Stockholm

Guilty as charged. Putin is a bigoted, authoritarian pig but he is not as bad as Adolf Hitler

6079_Smith_W

On that note, I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone post the pics from the memorial to the Galicia Division which happened last August. Some people at the event wore the uniforms and everything.

Stockholm

On the other hand Putin seems to be spearheading an attempt to rehabilitate Stalin's image in Russia and is trying to cast him as some sort of hero...why not? he only single handedly starved something like 8 million Ukrainians to death in the Holodomor. What's not to like!

NDPP

John Baird Compares Russia's Actions In Ukraine to Nazi Invasion of Czechoslovakia (and vid)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/john-baird-compares-russia-s-actions-in-...

"Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird has compared Russia's troop presence in Ukraine's Crimean Peninsula to Hitler's invasion of Sudetenland..."

ndp no difference party supports

Stockholm

There is a word that describes both Russia's invasion of Crimea and Germany's invasion of Sudentenland...its called irredentism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irredentism

Irredentism (from Italian irredento, "unredeemed") is any position of a state advocating annexation of territories administered by another state on the grounds of common ethnicity or prior historical possession, actual or alleged. It is often advocated by pan-nationalist movements and has been a repeated feature of identity politics, cultural and political geography. Because most borders have been moved and redrawn over time, a great many countries could theoretically present irredentist claims to their neighbors. Germany's Anschluss of Austria and annexation of the German-speaking Sudetenland from Czechoslovakia in 1938, and a return of territory from Czechoslovakia to Hungary as a result of the First Vienna Award, are perhaps the best known historical examples of this idea in practice.

Some nation states have been the subject of potential irredentism from their inception. The states of post-World War I Central Europe, created from the Austro-Hungarian Empire; Southeast Europe, and the Near East had borders carved out by the Allies that left many of the new states in those regions unsatisfied. There were minority populations and conflicting historical claims to territory in each case. Similarly, many territories and nations in Africa had borders determined by power struggles among the European colonial powers, rather than reflecting historical ethnic and language groupings. The result split ethnic groups between different countries, such as the Yoruba who are divided between Nigeria and Benin. In some cases, the irredentist arguments have continued past the Second World War and on to the present day.

josh

Stockholm wrote:

On the other hand Putin seems to be spearheading an attempt to rehabilitate Stalin's image in Russia and is trying to cast him as some sort of hero...why not? he only single handedly starved something like 8 million Ukrainians to death in the Holodomor. What's not to like!

Well he did defeat Hitler and liberated concentration camps. So, there's that.

Stockholm

josh wrote:

Well he did defeat Hitler and liberated concentration camps. So, there's that.

When Stalin's Red Army "liberated" prisoner of war camps he ordered that all Russian prisoners be executed since he thought anyone taken prisoner by the Germans had to have been a treacherous coward...evil enough for you?

iyraste1313

re name calling

The key leaders of the new nazi government of the Ukraine in the portfolios of defence, armed forces,  justice, education and economics are all members of the nazi saluting jew baiting Svoboda and Right Sector Parties....

so this isn`t a nazi party? Just name calling?

Better say name calling when referring to the New Democratic Party, now with a record of support 100% down the line of the fascist and terrorist movements in Libya, Syria and now the Ukraine

josh

Stockholm wrote:

josh wrote:

Well he did defeat Hitler and liberated concentration camps. So, there's that.

When Stalin's Red Army "liberated" prisoner of war camps he ordered that all Russian prisoners be executed since he thought anyone taken prisoner by the Germans had to have been a treacherous coward...evil enough for you?

Stalin was certainly a paranoid murderer, but there's no need to exaggerate the killings attributed to him or to overlook his role in defeating the greater evil, Hitler.

NorthReport
josh

Scholars disagree on the relative importance of natural factors and bad economic policies as causes of the famine and the degree to which the destruction of the Ukrainian peasantry was premeditated on the part of Joseph Stalin.[10][20][21][22] Using Holodomor in reference to the famine emphasizes its man-made aspects, arguing that actions such as rejection of outside aid, confiscation of all household foodstuffs, and restriction of population movement confer intent, defining the famine as genocide; the loss of life has been compared to the Holocaust.[23] If Soviet policies and actions were conclusively documented as intending to eradicate the rise of Ukrainian nationalism, they would fall under the legal definition of genocide.[24][25][26][27][28] In the absence of absolute documentary proof of intent, scholars have also made the argument that the Holodomor was ultimately a consequence of the economic problems associated with radical economic changes implemented during the period of liquidation of private property and Soviet industrialization.

Stockholm

Just as there is "Holocaust denial" there is also "Holodomor denial"

josh

Stockholm wrote:

Just as there is "Holocaust denial" there is also "Holodomor denial"

Godwin.

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