Conservatives, NDP, Liberals unanimously tell Ukraine what to do

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NorthReport
6079_Smith_W

Godwin? Seriously? I think you're trying to close the barn door after Hitler's long gone.

And playing a numbers game on genocide... are we honestly taking the conversation in this direction?

Brachina

Stalin is general concidered equal to Hitler and therefor does not invoke Godwin's rule.

Unionist

Brachina wrote:
Stalin is general concidered equal to Hitler and therefor does not invoke Godwin's rule.

It's good to know where you, and some others here, will stand if we ever have to make that decision again. You know: Hitler or Stalin?

It's interesting that it's impossible to to discuss what stand Canada should take on the current situation - that's what the thread is about - without all this stuff coming out.

Rebecca accused me earlier of creating a "false dichotomy". I hope she's reading these posts. To figure out the current situation in Ukraine and how to defend peace and sovereignty, apparently we must first decide whether Hitler or Stalin killed more people. It would be hilarious if it weren't so macabre. No, I take that back. It's just plain hilarious.

 

josh

Brachina wrote:
Stalin is general concidered equal to Hitler and therefor does not invoke Godwin's rule.

Generally considered by whom?

And if Godwin had wanted his law to include Stalin and Communists he would have done so.

MegB

Unionist wrote:

Brachina wrote:
Stalin is general concidered equal to Hitler and therefor does not invoke Godwin's rule.

It's good to know where you, and some others here, will stand if we ever have to make that decision again. You know: Hitler or Stalin?

It's interesting that it's impossible to to discuss what stand Canada should take on the current situation - that's what the thread is about - without all this stuff coming out.

Rebecca accused me earlier of creating a "false dichotomy". I hope she's reading these posts. To figure out the current situation in Ukraine and how to defend peace and sovereignty, apparently we must first decide whether Hitler or Stalin killed more people. It would be hilarious if it weren't so macabre. No, I take that back. It's just plain hilarious.

 

Hell yes, I'm reading these posts. Add to hilarious, ridiculous and pointless and off-topic. Back to the Ukraine folks. Please.

DLivings

Is Russian-Ukraine Intervention Legal?

This interview with a couple of veteran academics explores some of the current and recent historic events, agreements, and broken agreements that help us to at least understand what is taking place in the Ukraine and the Crimea today.  There is so much that we don't know and can't confirm about the current actions and reactions.  If the picture presented in this article/clip is mostly accurate, we can reasonably predict that Russia sees this as a matter of survival and won't back away from this conflict easily...  they have the most to lose.  This article also reminds us that these issues are usually not Black and White...  there are truly 50 Shades of Grey!

NDPP

Stephen Harper, John Baird Compare Russia To WWII Era Germany

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stephen-harper-john-baird-compare-russia...

"...It's really important for me right now as a Canadian MP outside Canada in a country which is in grave jeopardy to present a united front with the government. So there's no dissent between me and the Liberal Party and the prime minister and the foreign minister on Ukraine right now.'

Since Putin's occupation of Crimea the opposition parties have presented a united front with the government on Ukraine. Harper consulted with NDP Leader Tom Mulcair over the weekend and Mulcair was spotted entering Harper's office late Tuesday.

Freeland said she hopes to talk to as many people as she can and report back to the Liberal Party. She described Ukraine as being on a war footing..."

the canucklhead political flunkie-class all sing the same song when the imperial court demands it..

 

Russia's Very Different Take on Ukraine Crisis: Walkom

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/03/04/russias_very_different_tak...

"There is little the West can do to force Russian troops from the Crimea. But we should try to understand why the're there..."

PrairieDemocrat15

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/the-ukraine-crisis-through-the-whimsy-of-in...

Niel Macdonald, as always, provides an excellent article. Unlike most Western observers, he admits that Yanukovych's government, however unpopular, was democratically elected and undemocratically overthrown. Moroever, he notes the rightist forces in the new Ukrainian government and criticises the reluctance of Western politicians and media to admit this fact.

"Listening to U.S. President Barack Obama bang on this week about the importance of world opinion and obeying international law and respecting sovereignty and being on the right side of history, you had to wonder whether he didn't have a little voice in his head whispering: "Really? Seriously? I'm actually saying this stuff?"

This is the commander-in-chief of a military that operates a prison camp on Cuban soil, against the explicit wishes of the Cuban government, and which regularly fires drone missiles into other countries, often killing innocent bystanders.

He is a president who ordered that CIA torturers would go unprosecuted, and leads a nation that has invaded other countries whenever it wished, regardless of what the rest of the world might think."

DLivings

PrairieDemocrat15 wrote:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/the-ukraine-crisis-through-the-whimsy-of-in...

Niel Macdonald, as always, provides an excellent article. Unlike most Western observers, he admits that Yanukovych's government, however unpopular, was democratically elected and undemocratically overthrown. Moroever, he notes the rightist forces in the new Ukrainian government and criticises the reluctance of Western politicians and media to admit this fact.

The west is pretty good at ignoring coups when it's our "friends" making the coup...   Honduras, Egypt, Syria (in process), Ukraine...   and quick to jump on any evidence that "the other side" may be acting improperly.  This is extremely disturbing... this support for democracy when it's convenient, and ignoring democratic processes when it's not.  This is playing out domestically as well...  in the US it's about buying elections.  Here the move to an UnFair Elections Act, lying to move a bill forward, robocalls and more.  Ultimately, the end justifies the means.

What's the alternative?  To support strong democratic structures.  To encourage young people to be politically involved.  To accept that our future depends on the diligence of our citizens.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Recent new flash indicates that Estonian officials were discussing the fact that THE SNIPERS WHO SHOT POLICE AND PROTESTORS ALIKE IN THE MAIDAN WERE HIRED BY MAIDAN LEADERS.

So the claims that the ousted President directed Berkut officers to shoot protestors was ... another pack of lies. Interesting.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Stockholm wrote:

The anti-government demonstrations in Ukraine are from a very broad range of civil society...just because one group is on the far right doesnt mean that the entire movement can be called "Nazi"...and there are just as many horrific fascistic elements on the pro-Russian side - who are also xenophobic, homophobic, anti-semitic etc... One thing i do know - if I was a gay, Jewish, small "l" liberal-minded Ukrainian - I'd rather take my chances with a government that wants to join the EU and allow the European Court of Human Rights to have a say over Ukrainian human rights policy than be at the mercy of Vladimir Putin and his neo-fascist thugs.

 

Actually, the new regime in Kiev has passed anti-Semitic laws (anti anything that is not ethnic Ukrainian, which includes Jews, Russians, Tatars, Moldovians and all the other non-Ukrainian ethnics in Ukraine) .

 

Good luck with supporting the Kievan anti-Semites. The other relevant thing is that while those demanding change came from all walks of life, the ones that were the best armed were the rightist extremists. And that means they call the shots; eg, they have their people in the Interior Ministry, etc. the Police. As usual, ordinary people are getting the short end of the stick.

iyraste1313

yes what is needed in canada is some form of spiritualist revival amongst the youth, something which I cherished during my own youth of the late 60`s early 70`s til it went mainstream...that we must now shy away from the idolatry of making money for the sake of money and all the prestige`it may buy, that we must return to cherish our values, our freedom, to find ways to live by what we believe.

Yes we must become again vigilant! Our authorities have no interest in us other than explot our gifts for whatever they can get...

good skilled workers for their factories, trained bureauucrats for their institutions of control, good soldiers for their wars, good accounting people for their manipulations of our productive work ad nauseum....above all else to engage in community and collective works safeguarding our rights to direct democracy...never trust anyone to represent you, especially now where your reps are guaranteed to be bought off....

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

ikosmos wrote:

Recent new flash indicates that Estonian officials were discussing the fact that THE SNIPERS WHO SHOT POLICE AND PROTESTORS ALIKE IN THE MAIDAN WERE HIRED BY MAIDAN LEADERS.

So the claims that the ousted President directed Berkut officers to shoot protestors was ... another pack of lies. Interesting.

 

Here is the relevant quote from RT:

"Estonian foreign ministry has confirmed the recording of his conversation with EU foreign policy chief is authentic. Urmas Paet said that snipers who shot at protesters and police in Kiev were hired by Maidan leaders."

6079_Smith_W

This Urmas Paet?

https://twitter.com/Urmaspaet 

 

Unionist

This thread is supposed to be about the position of Canada, its government and parties, and its people, vis-a-vis the events in Ukraine. It gets confusing when things are posted here that really belong in the Ukraine thread in the international forum.

Just a suggestion.

 

ikosmos ikosmos's picture
6079_Smith_W

Yup. Same guy.

Brachina

 Putin has been nominated for the nobel peace prize.

Bluegreenblogger

ikosmos wrote:

ikosmos wrote:

Recent new flash indicates that Estonian officials were discussing the fact that THE SNIPERS WHO SHOT POLICE AND PROTESTORS ALIKE IN THE MAIDAN WERE HIRED BY MAIDAN LEADERS.

So the claims that the ousted President directed Berkut officers to shoot protestors was ... another pack of lies. Interesting.

 

Here is the relevant quote from RT:

"Estonian foreign ministry has confirmed the recording of his conversation with EU foreign policy chief is authentic. Urmas Paet said that snipers who shot at protesters and police in Kiev were hired by Maidan leaders."

So are you suggesting that I should take the word of the Estonian foreign minister, and ignore the BBC footage of police snipers? Interesting....

Unionist

Could you please take this conversation to the Ukraine thread, where it is already under way - instead of having two overlapping unrelated conversations?

Thank you so much.

 

wage zombie

ikosmos wrote:

Good luck with supporting the Kievan anti-Semites. The other relevant thing is that while those demanding change came from all walks of life, the ones that were the best armed were the rightist extremists. And that means they call the shots; eg, they have their people in the Interior Ministry, etc. the Police. As usual, ordinary people are getting the short end of the stick.

This seems like a very astute observation to me.  When I saw pictures of the protest, it did look like people were coming from all walks of life.  Other than the molotov cocktails and the fire it reminded me a lot of Occupy Vancouver.

Occupy Vancouver also had people from all walks of life, including rightist extremists.

What's the solution here?  It's starting to look like a revolution is just as easy to co-opt as an election.

Sean in Ottawa

Too many Canadians are reducing the debate in Ukraine to some democratic vs undemocratic,,, good vs bad debate. It is a false dichotomy. The bigger division is cultural and about national direction, outlook, ties that are more than political. The ignorance that is flowing is dramatic. As I posted in the Ukraine thread the issue of the Crimea which is the biggest point of contention is much more complicated. I don't want to repeat what I said there but we are dealing with less than clear issues. And this is not a situation where one side has the corner on moral authority.

We can speak in favour of peace, process (if we had any credibility on that) and self-dtermination without violence. But prescibing what should happen is very negative. I am disturbed by Canadians calling for Crimea to remain with Ukraine- even if the people there prefer otherwise. Who are we to tell the people who actually live there how their political and national affiliation should be defined. This is not some straight up case of invasion as it is being portayed.

Canada does not need to be silent. We can express concern about violence, promotionof peace and advocate for dialogue. We can express understanding that this is an area with a complicated history and we can express a desire to get along with both countries. We can promote moderation and respect for human rights. We can interfere with all those opinions.

We can even offer both sides a willingness to offer humanitarian support if it ever came to that being needed.

What we should not do is say what territory should be part of what country and threaten sanctions to back up our ignorant and irrelevant points of view. The things I spoke about that we can say are universal values. The things I say we should back out of are local regional decisions. The difference is not so very difficult.

sherpa-finn

Unionist wrote: Could you please take this conversation to the Ukraine thread, where it is already under way - instead of having two overlapping unrelated conversations?  Thank you so much.

Full credit to Unionist for his valiant service as Babble traffic-cop / cat herder on these intertwined threads.  

NorthReport

Harper has just stated that Canada will not recognize the Crimea referendum results.

Unionist

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Too many Canadians are reducing the debate in Ukraine to some democratic vs undemocratic,,, good vs bad debate. It is a false dichotomy. The bigger division is cultural and about national direction, outlook, ties that are more than political. The ignorance that is flowing is dramatic. As I posted in the Ukraine thread the issue of the Crimea which is the biggest point of contention is much more complicated. I don't want to repeat what I said there but we are dealing with less than clear issues. And this is not a situation where one side has the corner on moral authority.

We can speak in favour of peace, process (if we had any credibility on that) and self-dtermination without violence. But prescibing what should happen is very negative. I am disturbed by Canadians calling for Crimea to remain with Ukraine- even if the people there prefer otherwise. Who are we to tell the people who actually live there how their political and national affiliation should be defined. This is not some straight up case of invasion as it is being portayed.

Canada does not need to be silent. We can express concern about violence, promotionof peace and advocate for dialogue. We can express understanding that this is an area with a complicated history and we can express a desire to get along with both countries. We can promote moderation and respect for human rights. We can interfere with all those opinions.

We can even offer both sides a willingness to offer humanitarian support if it ever came to that being needed.

What we should not do is say what territory should be part of what country and threaten sanctions to back up our ignorant and irrelevant points of view. The things I spoke about that we can say are universal values. The things I say we should back out of are local regional decisions. The difference is not so very difficult.

I know it's poor form to quote an entire post just to say, "I agree with that!" But until babble provides us with enthusiastic "like" buttons, that's what I'm doing.

 

ETA:

NorthReport wrote:
Harper has just stated that Canada will not recognize the Crimea referendum results.

Excellent! That puts Crimea right in line with Québec - and with Canada, come to think of it!

 

NDPP

Ukraine Crisis: PM Rejects Crimea Referendum, Vows to Defend Country

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-crisis-pm-rejects-crimea-referendum...

"Mulcair, appearing on CBC News Network's Power and Politics, said if he were prime minister, he wouldn't do anything 'terribly different' than Harper."

josh

NorthReport wrote:

Harper has just stated that Canada will not recognize the Crimea referendum results.

I'm sure Crimeans won't sleep knowing that.

But he had no problem recognizing Kosovo.

 

Brachina

 A referundum at the end of a gun barrell is no referundum at all, its a sham. If Crimea wants to be recognized, the Russian Military needs to leave Crimean soil before any referundum can be taken meaningfully. And it needs to be a far one.

 

Brachina

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ndp-critic-takes-issue-with-b...

 

 The Tories will fuck up international relations anyway they can.

Brachina

“Canada will not recognize a referendum held in a region currently under illegal military occupation.”

 As much as I hate to admit it, Harper's right, no one would ever believe its fair.

 

 If Crimea wants to join Russia or form its own country Russia needs to leave first and then as long as its fair we should respect the decision of Crimea.

 

 I will say I'm not sure why Crimea would want to join a country headed by that asshole Putin.

wage zombie

Brachina wrote:

I will say I'm not sure why Crimea would want to join a country headed by that asshole Putin.

Maybe you should think about it a bit more then.

DLivings

wage zombie wrote:

Brachina wrote:

I will say I'm not sure why Crimea would want to join a country headed by that asshole Putin.

Maybe you should think about it a bit more then.

It's irrelevant what we think.  Let's be consistent.  This is their decision.  We like people having a vote until we don't agree with the outcome.  

Unionist

Brachina wrote:

 I will say I'm not sure why Crimea would want to join a country headed by that asshole Putin.

You also have trouble understanding why Quebecers wouldn't want to stay in a country headed by that asshole Harper.

Do you understand that other people are sovereign and must be allowed to make their own choices? Of course, you support Mulcair, who wouldn't do anything terribly different from Harper (according to the quote in the article above). On Ukraine, on Libya, on Afghanistan, on Syria. All Mulcair and Dewar and Laverdière did was to egg Harper on at every turn, to be more aggressive, more pro-U.S., more imperialists.

You reflect the mentality of an oppressor nation - it's natural, don't get me wrong - the mentality of those who think the War of 1812 and World War I were great heroic moments for Canada.

It's not easy for someone in an oppressor nation to overcome that mentality, to respect and understand the equality and sovereignty and rights of others to fight their own battles and decide for themselves. But we have to try.

sherpa-finn

Careful, Unionist - the patronizing tone does not become you or credit your arguement.  Let's just try a little inversion of your sermon to see how it fits and feels ...

You reflect the mentality of an isolationist nation - it's natural, don't get me wrong - the mentality of those who think just because their immigrant ancestors killled off all the native peoples, stole their land and resources - and have the happy convenience of wide oceans between them and the rest of the world such they can now live in peace and prosperity and tell the rest of the world to go fuck themselves. 

It's not easy for someone in an isolationist nation to overcome that mentality, to understand that their privilege and prosperity, purchased on the backs and from the blood of others, calls them to show international solidarity with those who struggle and suffer under despots elsewhere. But we have to try.

 

NDPP

Russian Soldiers Training in Canada Given 24 Hours to Leave Country

http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/russian-soldiers-training-in-canada-given...

"Nine Russian soldiers who were participating in military exercises in Canada has been expelled from the country as Ottawa continues to denounce Russia's military intrvention in Crimea, CTV News has learned...

When asked about concerns of right-wing elements in the interim Ukrainian government, Baird said Canada is encouraging the new government 'to be fully representative of the diversity of the whole country.

'I raised Canada's concern about anti-Semitism, and said that all political leaders, whether they be in government or opposition, should try and build a pluralistic Ukraine."

This pro-forma throwaway is akin to Jack Layton's sop to the NDP reversal on Canada in NATO: 'We're going to change it from within..'

Brachina

 Harper is on his way out in favour of Mulcair in 2015. Does anyone believe Putin is going anywhere?

 

 I'd love it if Russia got rid of that homophobic asshole.

 

 Either way I'd respect thier decision, as long as I felt it was a fair election, but with troops on the ground and Putin's foot on Crimea's neck, I just don't see that happening. If Crimea wants recognition, the Russian troops need to go. That happens they will have my full support for a referundum.

quizzical

sherpa-finn wrote:
You reflect the mentality of an isolationist nation - it's natural, don't get me wrong - the mentality of those who think just because their immigrant ancestors killled off all the native peoples, stole their land and resources - and have the happy convenience of wide oceans between them and the rest of the world such they can now live in peace and prosperity and tell the rest of the world to go fuck themselves. 

It's not easy for someone in an isolationist nation to overcome that mentality, to understand that their privilege and prosperity, purchased on the backs and from the blood of others, calls them to show international solidarity with those who struggle and suffer under despots elsewhere. But we have to try.

 

love this

6079_Smith_W

Well if you want some actual over-the-top western media bias to point at, here you go:

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/analysis/maybe-the-hitler-analo...

I'll be interested to see what kind of letters they get.

 

Unionist

sherpa-finn wrote:

You reflect the mentality of an isolationist nation - it's natural, don't get me wrong - the mentality of those who think just because their immigrant ancestors killled off all the native peoples, stole their land and resources - and have the happy convenience of wide oceans between them and the rest of the world such they can now live in peace and prosperity and tell the rest of the world to go fuck themselves. 

It's not easy for someone in an isolationist nation to overcome that mentality, to understand that their privilege and prosperity, purchased on the backs and from the blood of others, calls them to show international solidarity with those who struggle and suffer under despots elsewhere. But we have to try.

 

Empty rhetoric of the "Responsibility to Protect" doctrine. Opposing "isolationism" has always been a call for interference, invasion, and war. When I say that Canada should not interfere in the affairs of Ukraine - should not take sides between Russia and the U.S. and the EU - should not impose sanctions and freeze assets and make empty declarations about "we won't recognize your referendum" and hug and kiss the heirs of Stepan Bandera - you think that's a failure to show solidarity?

Your rhetoric has justified every invasion and occupation since World War II. No Great Power invades any more to safeguard their profits and exploitation and domination. No - they invade to help the poor people "who struggle and suffer under despots elsewhere". And of course, it is always the Wise White Men of the West who are ready to rush to the defence of people who are being killed by their own compatriots.

No other nation needs Canada's help to overthrow their own "despots". We should help them by dealing with our own despots. That's our responsibility. That's how we can protect world peace.

ETA: Sorry, correction: I should have said, "it's always the Wise White Men of the West and East" who rush in to help their more backward oppressed brethren. Never forget the Soviets, using the same bullshit pretexts as the U.S., invading Hungary and Czechoslovakia and Afghanistan and I'm sure I've missed a few. What would the poor world do without these Superior Civilizations?

wage zombie

Brachina wrote:

Either way I'd respect thier decision, as long as I felt it was a fair election, but with troops on the ground and Putin's foot on Crimea's neck, I just don't see that happening. If Crimea wants recognition, the Russian troops need to go.

You know that Russia's 2nd largest military base is in Crimea, right?

Quote:

That happens they will have my full support for a referundum.

Do you have some international influence that can help them?  What would your full support look like?

Brachina

 There are some things best left to your imagination Wage Zombie ;D

PrairieDemocrat15

Brachina wrote:

“Canada will not recognize a referendum held in a region currently under illegal military occupation.”

 As much as I hate to admit it, Harper's right, no one would ever believe its fair.

 

 If Crimea wants to join Russia or form its own country Russia needs to leave first and then as long as its fair we should respect the decision of Crimea.

 

 I will say I'm not sure why Crimea would want to join a country headed by that asshole Putin.

The new Prime Minister of Ukraine has stated he would not allow any referendum on Crimea.

sherpa-finn

Unionist wrote: Empty rhetoric of the "Responsibility to Protect" doctrine. Opposing "isolationism" has always been a call for interference, invasion, and war…

Here we go again... for the uninitiated, Unionist and I recycle this conversation every international crisis, - at some point it will probably warrant its own thread [Proposed title: ‘So, what does a “progressive” Canadian foreign policy look like in the 21st century?’].

But – just for ‘old times sake’, Unionist, (and to invert your opening line just for good measure) “isolationist rhetoric and behaviour has facilitated and enabled every invasion, occupation – indeed act of violence since ...”

  • So, does that mean interventionism always? To my mind, clearly not.
  • Does that mean interventionism never. Definitely not.
  • Does that mean interventions when necessary but not necessarily interventions? Absolutely.
  • And does that mean interventionism = military action? Not at all.

So, its a messy, complicated business that comprises assorted shades of grey. There are no more cowboys in black and white hats (were there ever, really?). 

But there are hugely important battles being fought and struggles to be supported both on the global stage and in countries other than our own. (Indeed, most of our domestic political pre-occupations seem downright quaint by comparison with global forces of political and economic change.)

Unionist’s implicit proposal that Babblers join the International Order of Global Thumb-suckers is no role for progressives in a world that is getting smaller and more inter-dependent every single day.

And we need to relax and check our usual Canadian hang-ups at the door. To be brutally honest, we don’t actually make that much of a difference. Canada may represent 7% of the earth's land surface, but we are only 2% of the global economy and less than 0.5% of the global population. And those latter two stats are dropping. And will do so, forever.

Bottom-line: sorry folks, on most issues (Ukraine leaps to mind) we’re just not that important. 

But there are still many places in this world where Canadians can act in solidarity with others who live on the front lines of assorted struggles for their basic rights. Be that as individuals, through organizations, as a national government.

And for any among us who are driven more by self-interest than altruism, - well, you might keep in mind that white men of neither east nor west will be dominant much longer this century... and Canadian progressives will do our causes and our values no favours by scurrying behind artificial, transitory national boundaries, with our eyes averted and voices silent. 

6079_Smith_W

sherpa-finn wrote:

Bottom-line: sorry folks, on most issues (Ukraine leaps to mind) we’re just not that important.

Except when one considers that the Ukrainian diaspora in Canada is probably the third largest in the world, behind only Russia and Kazakhstan.

http://www.ucc.ca/members/national-members/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%E2%80%93Ukraine_relations

The foolish actions of our current government notwithstanding, Canada is actually one of the most  significant nations when it comes to cultural ties and advocacy in Ukraine. Interference in their self determination is one thing, but the fact is Canadian Ukrainian organizations have played an active role in Ukraine for the past century.

 

 

Unionist

Excellent short piece by Tony Burman:

[url=http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2014/03/08/four_lessons_from_the_ukrai... lessons from the Ukraine crisis[/url]

Quote:

The government of Canada, of course, could not resist getting into the action. In his artless grab at pulling in the ethnic vote, Prime Minister Stephen Harper flipped the facts of history on their head and reached back to the era of Adolf Hitler to express his view.

Harper invoked the Nazi annexation of Austria in 1938 to describe Russia’s “seizure” of Ukraine’s Crimea region: “We have not seen this kind of behaviour since the Second World War.”

Oh, we haven’t, have we?

 

6079_Smith_W

Yes good piece.

One could add to that "weakness" argument that Sevastopol is the only viable deep sea port for the Black Sea Fleet, and the only other ice-free port on Russia's western side is Kaliningrad.

There is every reason for him to either fight for it, or cut some sort of deal. Problem is Russia's heavy-handed relationship with Ukraine is a good reason for suspicion.

NDPP

Russia Has Already Lost the War  -  by Chrystia Freeland

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/09/opinion/sunday/how-russia-has-already-...

"Mr Putin and his vision of an authoritarian Russia-dominated former Soviet space have already lost. Democratic, independent Ukraine and the messy, querulous (but also free and law-abiding) European idea have won..." 

Chrystia Freeland MP's contribution to the great western wurlitzer

Unionist

Rex Murphy (listening to him accidentally) is asking every caller how and whether "the West" should intervene. He's not happy when they say no.

 

NDPP

The country daily becomes more alarming and ridiculous. No heart. No brain. Fascism/imperialism here we come...

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