English-language leaders' debate 2011, post-op

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Catchfire Catchfire's picture
English-language leaders' debate 2011, post-op

Continued from here.

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Unionist

Great, Catchfire, thanks for inviting me to write off the rest of my evening. I've said my piece. Unless and until someone says something that I just can't let stand. Maybe that won't happen.

 

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Next time I'm in Montreal, I'll buy you a beer, Unionist. You'll get that night out one of these days.

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

Well U. Daresay my software acting up is slowing me down.

Unionist wrote:

Oh, and dare I say I agree with E. May's comment? She said no one talked about women, indigenous peoples, climate change, or Libya.

Being sarcastic ingenuous?

I have further comments about your analysis if the software abides. I'm having technical difficulties.

Lens Solution

Hopefully Harper will get knocked off his game in the French debate tomorrow night.

It is vital that Gilles Duceppe tap into the anger in Quebec City and get voters to come out there and vote against the Conservatives.  We need the Cons to lose seats to the BQ in Quebec if we are going to stop them from winning a majority.

ghoris

Quote:
Oh, and dare I say I agree with E. May's comment? She said no one talked about women, indigenous peoples, climate change, or Libya.

I think there were a couple passing references to climate change but I agree, nothing substantive. (There's more important issues like Facebook pages to discuss, doncha know!)
Iggy missed a prime opening against Harper on maternal health. Also surprised nobody even mentioned Libya.

Aristotleded24

ghoris wrote:
Also surprised nobody even mentioned Libya.

That's because everybody agreed with bombing the place.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

In regards to Duceppe.

His performance wasn't great tonight..He didn't seem at ease in English.

With the debate shifting into French,I expect him to do very well.

And he's got alot of ammo...He was the first to start firing the bullets at the beginning of the campaign.

And Harper looked like he was drugged up on tranquilizers,his face never changed expression and the 3 other leaders let him off easy.

The game plan tomorrow is to attack,go for the jugular.

And of the 4 leaders,Duceppe's mother tongue is French...I guarantee he will have a much easier time articulating his arguements and statements and be much more at ease.

Fidel

Unionist wrote:
Oh, and dare I say I agree with E. May's comment? She said no one talked about women, indigenous peoples, climate change, or Libya.

She must have missed Jack Layton saying the NDP has nominated even more female candidates this time around.

She must have missed the part of the debate on crime when Jack Layton emphasized that indigenous people are living in grinding poverty with two and sometimes three families crammed together in substandard housing designed for single families.

She must have missed the part where Jack Layton tried to cajole the other two dead end parties to discuss their awful records on the environment and how Canada is viewed by the rest of the world as a corrupt petro state in so many Laytonian words.

But the Liberal and Tory same old story leaders were having none of it. 

Jack actually scored on all of those issues. Iggy the master Harvard debater appeared embarrassed by the Liberals 13 year-long record in power, and Harper's five years have produced similarly bad results.

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

libya did get missed except by harper who bragged of our canadian leadership there

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

Yeah, E. May's comments are out to lunch.

Life, the unive...

To follow the discussion going on at the end of the other thread.   The point is that as a centrist party the Liberals need to attract votes for the left and right.  They have abandoned attracting votes away from the Conservatives and as such are not doing their job.   By only fishing in the NDP pond the Liberals are helping Harper campaign towards a majority.  It isn't about driving right either, but rather speaking to some of the concerns of the soft Conservative voter.   The Bloc, Greens and even NDP seem to be doing this, trying to take the Conservative vote down, thus making a Harper majority less likely.   The Liberals on the other hand are totally focused on saving the furniture for their party HQ, and if that means a Harper government, they seem totally fine with it if thatis the cost. 

Yet we constantly let the Liberals off the hook on this.  They need to be called on it far more often.

Fidel

Layton and Duceppe have already embarrassed Iggy and Harper in the English language debate. I can only imagine how much more  articulate Duceppe will be in his first language when tearing into Harper and Iggy a second time. I don't envy those two guys tomorrow night.

Unionist

[deleted - I've been corrected by Fidel about what was said on the topics E. May said were missed - I must have dozed off - thanks, Fidel.]

Life, the unive...

Unionist wrote:
Oh, and dare I say I agree with E. May's comment? She said no one talked about women, indigenous peoples, climate change, or Libya.

Well actually having been aquainted with E May this is her typical lack of aquantance with basic honesty.

Women, and violence against women was most certainly talked about

Layton was the only person to mention the concerns of First Nations people - so wrong again

Climate change was mentioned as well - fail on E May

And as usual in her completely ungracious way May ignores that Layton specifically addressed the issue of the Greens receiving close to a million votes yet no seat in the House and how that was one reason for electoral form.

Basing anything on anything E May says is like basing your decision to light up a cigarette because the local corner store owner tells you it is perfectly healthy.

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

Unionist wrote:

[deleted - I've been corrected by Fidel about what was said on the topics E. May said were missed - I must have dozed off - thanks, Fidel.]

edit: Yes U, Jack had plenty to say about women and FN's in the crime portion.

Pogo Pogo's picture

The french debate is the prize.  All parties have to do well.

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

Life, the universe, everything wrote:

Unionist wrote:
Oh, and dare I say I agree with E. May's comment? She said no one talked about women, indigenous peoples, climate change, or Libya.

Well actually having been aquainted with E May this is her typical lack of aquantance with basic honesty.

Women, and violence against women was most certainly talked about

Layton was the only person to mention the concerns of First Nations people - so wrong again

Climate change was mentioned as well - fail on E May

And as usual in her completely ungracious way May ignores that Layton specifically addressed the issue of the Greens receiving close to a million votes yet no seat in the House and how that was one reason for electoral form.

i thought that was magnaminous of jack

Quote:

Basing anything on anything E May says is like basing your decision to light up a cigarette because the local corner store owner tells you it is perfectly healthy.

ill brb

Fidel

And I imagine there may be opportunities to debate some of the things which were not this evening. For instance, Quebeckers will likely want to hear more discussion of the two-party coalition's plan for Afghanistan, or IWOs, Washington's instructions.  

And perhaps master debaters will be drawn into discussing the recent AG's report on crime, kick-back, graft and corruption in The Harper Government of Canada.

Bubbles

What an uninspiring dbate. E.May can be glad she was not there, she is the default choise now.

How come parties are so incapable of selecting more courageous individuals, what we have here come across as marionettes.

 

 

"The Harper regime is there exclusively for rural Canada...Rural interests,rural values and rural ignorance.

Looks like 5 years of Hee Haw on the horizon. " (alan smithee)

 

A bit of an ignorant comment in my opinion. Not all that many Hee Haws around here.

If Harper wins the election it will only be because of the urbanites, since 80 percent of canadians live in urban areas.

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

yes, that division needs to go bubbles, youre right

this has noting to do with rural urban divide.

melovesproles

I followed May's liveblog and it just reminded me how irritating and self-righteous she is.  I hope all the party's get new leaders after this election, they really are all a big part of the problem. 

I disagree this was a win for Harper.  It wasn't a total loss but I thought if there was one memorable moment from the debate it was Iggy's 'Parliament isn't this little debating society that's a pesky inteference to your rule of the country.'  Harper's contempt of democracy came through and his constant use of the same cliches over and over got really tiring.  If you liked Harper, you aren't going to care about any of this but there's no way he won over supporters from this performance.

Duceppe definitely wasn't as sharp as he has been in the past.  Layton was meh but he did a good job of getting under Ignatieff's skin.  I was hoping he'd be more relaxed and focused but it was that same old yippy pre-fabricated soundbyte style.  Iggy verbally stumbled a lot at first but got better as the debate went on and I think he'll shore up the Liberal vote.

Lens Solution

Pogo wrote:

The french debate is the prize.  All parties have to do well.

Yes, all 4 of them have something at stake in Quebec.  Duceppe has been plateauing in Quebec lately, so he needs to raise his numbers against Harper so that he can take seats away from him in Quebec City.  The BQ is probably the only party that can take away Con seats in QC.

Ignatieff is new to Quebec voters, so if he comes across well he has the opportunity to make a good impression.  Whether or not he does remains to be seen.

Unionist

RevolutionPlease wrote:
Life, the universe, everything wrote:

And as usual in her completely ungracious way May ignores that Layton specifically addressed the issue of the Greens receiving close to a million votes yet no seat in the House and how that was one reason for electoral form.

i thought that was magnaminous of jack

It was ill-considered, actually. He said it in the context of saying that the Bloc got 1.3 million votes and over 40 seats, while the Greens got 900,000 and none. He could have picked a better analogy than one which could be used against him in Québec. And as for proponents of PR, they should probably start thinking about how that aligns with keeping Québec in Canada, unless they don't care.

 

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

its an apathy divide

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

Unionist wrote:

RevolutionPlease wrote:
Life, the universe, everything wrote:

And as usual in her completely ungracious way May ignores that Layton specifically addressed the issue of the Greens receiving close to a million votes yet no seat in the House and how that was one reason for electoral form.

i thought that was magnaminous of jack

It was ill-considered, actually. He said it in the context of saying that the Bloc got 1.3 million votes and over 40 seats, while the Greens got 900,000 and none. He could have picked a better analogy than one which could be used against him in Québec. And as for proponents of PR, they should probably start thinking about how that aligns with keeping Québec in Canada, unless they don't care.

 

good point U

i neglected to think of how it plays in quebec

but if pr has a chance in canada i think it played well elsewhere

the battles are everywhere leaving us all scattered

Lachine Scot

I thought the debate was pretty depressing, but it wasn't Layton's fault per se.. he was stuck in a room with 3 drab clods.  4, if you include the moderator..  Anyways, I hated how most of them would ignore what the previous person said and just parrot their talking points.  I thought Ignatieff was especially guilty of this, as he repeated his key phrases over and over, sometimes even saying them backwards.  (Did anyone catch that?)

I also thought, for the supposed intellectual of the bunch and the most travelled, Ignatieff seemed to lose his train of thought and have a hard time finishing some of his sentences.

 

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

I'll retract the 'Hee Haw' comment.

But there is a rural and urban divide.

Different realities and different societies.

Just for an example - guns.

Maybe people in rural Canada see no harm in riding around with a firearm in their back seat.

But that's something you definately would NOT want to see in our cities.

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

alan smithee wrote:

I'll retract the 'Hee Haw' comment.

But there is a rural and urban divide.

Different realities and different societies.

Just for an example - guns.

Maybe people in rural Canada see no harm in riding around with a firearm in their back seat.

But that's something you definately would NOT want to see in our cities.

I'd argue there's better a chance, I, in an urban city, have driven around with more firearms than you.

bagkitty bagkitty's picture

Ignatieff lost a lot of points by being as arrogant as Harper... his "I will not form a coalition, if it is a Liberal minority I will govern alone" routine blurred any distinction between him and Harper.

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

sorry for being flippant.

this is a serious issue and the cons make it seem so itchy and scratchy

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Glad to hear you love guns.

Please share what you need to be driving around with firearms in the city.

Last I checked in my urban area,there are no moose hunts.

ilha formosa

Hello Babble. Here are my views after watching the debate online from overseas.

Opportunities I felt were missed in the debate:
Attacking Harper's home fortress: "Cut taxes to grow the economy" is the base of his economic philosophy. Question: But who is to grow the economy, and for whom? Isn't this a basic political-economic question? Harper's unspoken answer: The largest corporations will make the economy grow to most benefit the wealthiest people.
But relatively flat business tax rates = regressive tax rates. Trickle down theory doesn't work.
We need progressive business tax rates, small and medium businesses create the most meaningful and fulfilling employment. Iggy and Jack touched on this but failed to drive the point home emphatically. Jack almost did.

Also, non-Con parties failed to distinguish between how a majority Conservative government would be different from a minority Conservative government. A Con minority has been held to account by the other parties, what would a Con majority do?
I wish Jack had gone a little further to address this point after mentioning Harper's roots in the Reform Party and the NCC.

Assessment of leader performances:
Duceppe- succeeded in presenting Quebec's case, presenting BQ as best for Quebecers' particular interests, but he has this advantage in the English language debate as he doesn't need to pay attention to making impressions elsewhere in country; got in a few sharp jabs from the opening, hammered away at the Harper-led coalition, and also on some accountability issues. Held his ground. Was wearing the best suit and tie by far.

Ignatieff- Now I see why the Liberals can't climb in the polls. Much weaker than I thought he'd be. Often sounded like a stuck record, repeating same themes but not getting into details. (Painful to watch, knowing a strong Liberal performance is needed to prevent a majority Con govt, or have a hope in hell of a Lib-NDP coalition.) The grittiest detail he got into was "I met X during my bus tour, and..." Often seemed hesitant, dottery, out of touch with "the Canadians" (a phrase he used once but thereafter corrected to "the Canadian people"; he didn't use "Canadians"). He really bombed by indignantly saying "no coalition, no coalition for me" and by chiding the NDP for never forming government - this was very undiplomatic, undemocratic, and un-prime-ministerial. He may not be as bad as the negative advertising portrays, but he does provide it with plenty to stick to. Granted, he did make some good points. Overall, he did not appear knowledgable enough of details, nor sufficiently positive and prime ministerial. Maybe he dented Harper a little, but he needed to derail the Con. Iggy did not advance himself much, and for this reason, he failed.

Layton- Most in touch with common Canadians, and definitely the only one of the four who thinks doing something for the very least fortunate of Canadians is a priority in making Canada a better country. Showed the best substance and knowledge of reality of Canada on the ground. Skillfully brought topics into the debate that the others wouldn't or simply couldn't (e.g. electoral reform, status of women, living conditions in First Nation communities). I found myself giving him the most thumbs up. Jack for PM. Unfortunately the NDP has the most ground to make up. Jack came out tops in this debate, advanced the NDP I think. But it was done at Liberal expense also. He ripped into Iggy's attendance record in the House, which was good for non-Liberals and good for Canada to hear, but maybe this will mean more Cons moving up the middle of a split vote and a Con majority. Too bad the Libs and Dippers can't somehow work together for this country.

Harper- He is a smooth talking policy wonk. This enables him to obfuscate arguments and project confidence in his mastery of details, which most Canadians would not look more deeply into. Projects calm, the teflon consists of a calm smiling slight shake of the head and cool delivery of "That's simply not true" followed by "if you look at the details..." but this enables him to make outright lies. Got in the last word for what percentage of the time? I'd say over 90%. This guy is as good at being a feel-good manipulator as Reagan was, and for that Canada will suffer in the long term after a Harper majority carries out its program of unmooring the underpinnings of Canadian democracy.

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

alan smithee wrote:

I'll retract the 'Hee Haw' comment.

But there is a rural and urban divide.

Different realities and different societies.

Just for an example - guns.

Maybe people in rural Canada see no harm in riding around with a firearm in their back seat.

But that's something you definately would NOT want to see in our cities.

sorry for quoting you again alan, flag me, ill acquiesce

again i call bs to this rural/urban divide

we are all partners in canada and can do much to repair our communication

pls see my comment above

ill give you the rural/urban divide on other issues

gyor

Jack really hit two home runs that I think will be remembered by the public. One was the comments that pissed iggy off, that was a win for Jack both on having good points and on throwing his foes off his game. The second was against Harper over releasing the report. I hope that report does get released during the election.

The french debates should be more interesting but sadly I will not be able to watch them as I use anntenna not cable. Still I think people are over estimating Gilles preformance this election and in the English debates, which is usually stronger. Still time will tell. All four leaders have alot at stake her including Jack. How is Jack's French progressing? Iggy's french? Harpers?

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

alan smithee wrote:

Glad to hear you love guns.

Please share what you need to be driving around with firearms in the city.

Last I checked in my urban area,there are no moose hunts.

see we're not communicating

guns are a problem everywhere, thats why the registry is a good thing until it can be fixed

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

alan smithee wrote:

Glad to hear you love guns.

Please share what you need to be driving around with firearms in the city.

Last I checked in my urban area,there are no moose hunts.

oh yeah, i love guns

You ever heard of survival. no? try it son

there's cop hunts homie. we're the moose

janfromthebruce

Geez alan smithee, I'm from rural and no hick (hick). Sorry I missed all the fun with you guys. I had to go milk the cows (well no, actually had to go to a Board mtg to ensure public education runs smooth in the back country lanes of Ontario). FYI - I don't own a gun and nobody in my family owns a gun, and nobody around here talks about guns or gun control but maybe I don't hang with the RIGHT CROWD - Wink

Anyway, I missed the whole thing although I know it's tapped but I figured I get a good critique from rabble since you are all brutal.

Thank you thank you

 

alan smithee wrote:

I'll retract the 'Hee Haw' comment.

But there is a rural and urban divide.

Different realities and different societies.

Just for an example - guns.

Maybe people in rural Canada see no harm in riding around with a firearm in their back seat.

But that's something you definately would NOT want to see in our cities.

______________________________________________________________________________________ Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!

Frmrsldr

gyor wrote:

How is Jack's French progressing?

Jack's French is fine.

He's originally from Montreal.

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

RevolutionPlease wrote:
see we're not communicating guns are a problem everywhere, thats why the registry is a good thing until it can be fixed

Not sure what you mean here - why does it need to be fixed?

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

Boom Boom wrote:

RevolutionPlease wrote:
see we're not communicating guns are a problem everywhere, thats why the registry is a good thing until it can be fixed

Not sure what you mean here - why does it need to be fixed?

tell you the truth, im just open to some disagreements about it

id keep it the way it is

Stockholm

Ipsos already has an instant poll of debate viewers:

http://www.globalnews.ca/decisioncanada/story.html?id=4604903

Looks like Harper won, but Layton most improved peoples impressions and exceeded expectations of him and came in second.

Lachine Scot

Frmrsldr wrote:

gyor wrote:

How is Jack's French progressing?

Jack's French is fine.

He's originally from Montreal.

His French isn't bad! Not fluent, though.

You can hear him do an interview in French on Tout le Monde En Parle in this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvY8804AKv0

I'd say it's roughly as good as Duceppe's English.  They both occasionally use weird turns of phrase or pronounce words wrong but in general get by very comfortably.

 

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

RevolutionPlease wrote:
alan smithee wrote:

Glad to hear you love guns.

Please share what you need to be driving around with firearms in the city.

Last I checked in my urban area,there are no moose hunts.

see we're not communicating guns are a problem everywhere, thats why the registry is a good thing until it can be fixed

 

OK...my bad.

Truth be told,living in a rural community you may actually need a firearm (depending where you live) to hunt or to defend livestock or whatever.

There are hunters that live in urban areas--my boss hunts.

I don't have much of an issue on hunting rifles but I don't see the big deal with registering them.

We have to register most things (driver's licence,taxes,to vote and to hunt)

When Harper argued against the registry as 'ineffective' and 'wasteful',to me,the rebuttal should have been that mandatory minimums are ineffective and wasteful.

It was also interesting that when he tried to contradict Iggy,Layton and Duceppe when they sited that the police are in favour of a registry that Harper brought up cops who are against the registry..Quelle coincidence,they are both Tory MP's.

Speaking for myself,I think handguns should be banned--period.

I'm probably dead wrong about the gun registry being a rural/urban divide.

But I'm sure there is a regional divide...I'm sure Albertans and Quebeckers have polar opposite views on the matter.

Fidel

ilha formosa wrote:
Jack came out tops in this debate, advanced the NDP I think. But it was done at Liberal expense also. He ripped into Iggy's attendance record in the House, which was good for non-Liberals and good for Canada to hear, but maybe this will mean more Cons moving up the middle of a split vote and a Con majority. Too bad the Libs and Dippers can't somehow work together for this country.

I think that Tories and Liberals are playing to an approximately 15% swing vote, or IOWs, soft Liberal-Tory voters. And if I were one of those, I'd probably be very confused about now and unable to find any significant differences between the two parties as of the English language debate.

There will be x-unknown percent soft, left-leaning Liberal vote for the NDP to scavenge as well. NDP looking good in that regard right now.

 

Paulitical Junkie

I've been thinking about Harper's robotic, Xanax-ed debate performance and how some pundits have praised him for being calm. If Ignatieff had been that way he would have been described as lacking passion, and in the case of Layton he would have been described as looking ill. Ugh, I feel like the corporate media is REALLY pushing for a Con majority.

Fidel

Lachine Scot wrote:

Frmrsldr wrote:

gyor wrote:

How is Jack's French progressing?

Jack's French is fine.

He's originally from Montreal.

His French isn't bad! Not fluent, though.

You can hear him do an interview in French on Tout le Monde En Parle in this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvY8804AKv0

I'd say it's roughly as good as Duceppe's English.  They both occasionally use weird turns of phrase or pronounce words wrong but in general get by very comfortably.

 

The babbler lagatta is multilingual, and she said of the last debate that Layton committed the usual groaners related to verb and noun genders that non-Francophones tend to. But other than that, Layton was fairly impressive in Francais. 

I have no problem with Duceppe's English. Duceppe's Anglais, or Franglais?,  is at a higher level than some large percentage of English-speaking Ontarians, and especially here in the North. He does try to speak too fast in English though, but I can understand what he's saying fairly well. And I am hard of hearing.

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

Paulitical Junkie wrote:

I've been thinking about Harper's robotic, Xanax-ed debate performance and how some pundits have praised him for being calm. If Ignatieff had been that way he would have been described as lacking passion, and in the case of Layton he would have been described as looking ill. Ugh, I feel like the corporate media is REALLY pushing for a Con majority.

it wouldnt be so bad if it werent so

corpotocracy bring it on

i aint havin it

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

The closed-captioning of Duceppe tonight was atrocious.

gyor

It is just as important to see who wins the spin wars. Right now accordingnewdemocratsonline.ca the ndp is releasing alot of press releases. Some attacking Harper but it is the ones attacking Iggy that seem to hold a hint of what is to come. I think the gloves are coming off now as Jack has smelt blood. This is where the rest of the election gets really interesting.

Fidel

Boom Boom wrote:

The closed-captioning of Duceppe tonight was atrocious.

 

I know. I turned the volume up on the TV so that I could hear all of them. I don't do that usually because it's unnecessary added strain on what's left of my auditory nerves and whatnot.

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