English-language leaders' debate 2011, post-op

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bagkitty bagkitty's picture

I really have a hard time stomaching criticisms about Duceppe's English. While it is clear that English is not his first language, his vocabularly is excellent and his grammar is fine. His substitution of "d" for "th" and misplacing of emphasis on syllables identifies him as a non-Anglo, but neither makes him hard to understand and that, for me, would have to be the basis of any valid criticism. He has always come across, to me at least, and completely comprehensible and I don't think anyone should be held to much higher a standard than that when speaking in anything other than their mother tongue. I would characterize him as fluent. I hope the anglophone party leaders can be as fluent when speaking French.

bekayne

Stockholm wrote:

Ipsos already has an instant poll of debate viewers:

http://www.globalnews.ca/decisioncanada/story.html?id=4604903

Looks like Harper won, but Layton most improved peoples impressions and exceeded expectations of him and came in second.

And Leger too

http://www.torontosun.com/news/decision2011/2011/04/12/17973701.html

janfromthebruce

You know Stock I was looking at the questions and the changes in responses. Make no mistake, Jack is hot! I know I know but in saying that if someone wasn't particularly committed to any party and saw themselves as middle of the road, the places where he scores extremely high is good. So, personality and likeability is closely tied to ethnics and accountability because most people would choose to hang with people who have those qualities - Jack won hands down. Note they did not ask those respondents who they thought was most ethical and accountable but one related to likeability.

 

Furthermore, on the 4 rated top issues, he scored 3 out of 4 for the highest scores. All around, I think he actually won the debate based on factors that people are not conscious of, and that is what the debate is all about. People actually may not remember exactly what you said, except for some memorable remarks (Jack did this) but what they remember is whether they liked you, thought you were trustworthy.

 

Stockholm wrote:

Ipsos already has an instant poll of debate viewers:

http://www.globalnews.ca/decisioncanada/story.html?id=4604903

Looks like Harper won, but Layton most improved peoples impressions and exceeded expectations of him and came in second.

______________________________________________________________________________________ Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!

Fidel

Ipsos wrote:
After: Which party leader do you think is the most visually attractive?

Apparently Jack's inner beauty is important, but not nearly as important as his outer beauty.

janfromthebruce

You got it Fidel - Jack's hot!!! Kiss

Fidel

Laughing

Lens Solution

bekayne wrote:

Stockholm wrote:

Ipsos already has an instant poll of debate viewers:

http://www.globalnews.ca/decisioncanada/story.html?id=4604903

Looks like Harper won, but Layton most improved peoples impressions and exceeded expectations of him and came in second.

And Leger too

http://www.torontosun.com/news/decision2011/2011/04/12/17973701.html

Was Ignatieff 2nd in the Leger poll?  I can't figure it out because they don't say where Layton placed.  They only mention Harper and Iggy.

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

homeless youth have nothing left but potential

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

dp screwed program

Frmrsldr

Lachine Scot wrote:

His French isn't bad! Not fluent, though.

You can hear him do an interview in French on Tout le Monde En Parle in this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvY8804AKv0

I'd say it's roughly as good as Duceppe's English.  They both occasionally use weird turns of phrase or pronounce words wrong but in general get by very comfortably.

I think it was on CBC Radio's "Q" (with John Gomeshi, sp?) after the 2008 televized Leaders' Debate, where the different leaders' proficiency in French (after the Francofone Debate) was discussed and how this might influence popularity polls on their parties.

It was explained that Jack used a Montreal "street" accent and slang or turns of phrases that apparently was popular and made him look like a "man of the people" among a majority of Quebecers polled.Cool

Aristotleded24

janfromthebruce wrote:
You got it Fidel - Jack's hot!!! Kiss

Remember, he did open the campaing by promising to strip! ;)

Lens Solution

The opposition leaders didn't focus on this enough tonight:

Harper's trustworthy rating drops after G8 leak

 

 

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20110412/leadership-...

 

Wilf Day

Jack did well. Three specific comments:

1.  The CBC has redeemed themselves by their "Reality Check" showing the Ontario PCs having to hand over power to Peterson despite having four more seats.

2.  Maybe I'm dreaming, but I though it was significant that Duceppe changed his main mantra. I must have heard him say 1,000 time that the Bloc votes on the merits of legislation issue by issue: "if its good for Quebec we support it; if it's bad for Quebec we oppose it." Tonight, during the governance ("coalition") debate, he changed it: "if its good, we support it; if it's bad, we oppose it." Is he rehearsing for May 3rd?

3.  The only rant I heard that remotely approached Rick Mercer standards was near the end of the foreign policy question, when Ignatieff finally got off properly (after a couple of false starts) his rehearsed rant about Harper wanting to shut down anything he couldn't control. Pretty good. 

Lens Solution

Why did Harper get off so easy on the issue of corruption?  Why didn't the opposition parties mention Bruce Carson multiple times?  Harper hired a convicted criminal who stole thousands of dollars from his clients to work as one of his top advisers.  Canadians need to keep hearing that.

Aristotleded24

Lens Solution wrote:
Why did Harper get off so easy on the issue of corruption?  Why didn't the opposition parties mention Bruce Carson multiple times?  Harper hired a convicted criminal who stole thousands of dollars from his clients to work as one of his top advisers.  Canadians need to keep hearing that.

I don't think that kind of thing resonates with the average person. The average person thinks all politicians are corrupt anyways, so focusing on that may have the impact of just confirming that and making them less interested in the political process together.

Mind you, Layton's proposals to limit progogation powers of the PM, bar Senators from fundraising for political parties, and abolishing the Senate at least provide some concrete structural changes people can sink their teeth into. Same way Harper defeated the Liberals by proposing an Accountability Act.

Lens Solution

We have a Prime Minister who has several Senators and party workers charged with election fraud, we have a PM who also hired a convicted criminal at the same time he was coming into office on a mandate of promising to be different - like you said, with the Accountability Act.  These sorts of scandals should be resonating more.  The PM even had Bruce Carson and his "girlfriends" over to Sussex Drive.  On top of that is the latest G8/G20 report scandal.

IMO, a better opposition would be landing these attacks more successfully and Harper would be lower in the polls.

Aristotleded24

My concern is that the average person basically expects governments to act the way Harper did.

ghoris

Watching the CBC analysis of the debate, and in particular the "Insiders" segment, I am struck by two things:

1) The Ceeb seems to think it's fine to have a Tory and a Liberal and...nobody else. Really? Was Ian Capstick not available? Way to be fair and balanced.

2) Why oh why oh why does David Herle keep getting invited to these things? He's an insider, alright, he was right at the centre of the disaster that was Paul Martin's leadership of the Liberals. This is the guy who chaired the 2004 campaign that was supposed to be a 200-seat slam dunk and ended in a bare minority win, then helped run one of the most inept and useless administrations in recent history, and then chaired perhaps the worst Liberal election campaign of the last century in 2006. Any fair analyst of this guy's track record would conclude that he's completely incompetent and his analysis isn't worth a hill of beans - why does he keep getting these gigs as an 'eminence grise' insider???

milo204

i'd be interested to see the viewership was for this debate.  I'll bet most people tuned out after the first twenty minutes.

the sound sucked, the format was terrible, it came off as totally scripted and there was little time to get into anything of substance.  "jack layton you have 20 seconds..." is not my idea of a real debate.  

This proves why the "broadcast consortium" should not be handed control of the only two televised debates.  If anything it does a disservice to the political process.  

 

vaudree

alan smithee wrote:

In regards to Duceppe.

His performance wasn't great tonight..He didn't seem at ease in English.

With the debate shifting into French,I expect him to do very well.

And he's got alot of ammo...He was the first to start firing the bullets at the beginning of the campaign.

And Harper looked like he was drugged up on tranquilizers,his face never changed expression and the 3 other leaders let him off easy.

Harper was probably put on tranquilizers to keep him from losing his temper.  He looked wooden and never smiled until his closing comment.

Iggy looked arrogant when he basically said that Layton would never be PM - it is not what he said but how he said.

Ducceppe did ok - I think that his plan was to lay the groundwork for tomorrow and go for the jugular tomorrow.

Though Jack did not speak much, he was the one who spoke the most about policy.  He also fairly successfully painted Iggy and Harper as two sides of the same coin - with a bit of help from Iggy.

Harper's alternate deliveries sounds a bit like privatization to me.

May is wrong, Jack dealt with all those issues except Libya.  Jack did deal with Afghanistan, though.  And Iggy did hint at Israel Palestine with Cairos - but ...

Lens Solution

milo204 wrote:

i'd be interested to see the viewership was for this debate.  I'll bet most people tuned out after the first twenty minutes.

the sound sucked, the format was terrible, it came off as totally scripted and there was little time to get into anything of substance.  "jack layton you have 20 seconds..." is not my idea of a real debate.  

This proves why the "broadcast consortium" should not be handed control of the only two televised debates.  If anything it does a disservice to the political process.  

 

The format seemed to benefit Harper this time around, unfortunately.

In 2008, the format was better for the opposition leaders.  I think I'd prefer that they go back to sitting around the table.

NorthReport

Quote:
Layton charges Ignatieff missing in vote action in the House of Commons

 

During the English-language leaders' debate, the NDP's Jack Layton charged that Ignatieff has "the worst attendance record in the House of Commons of any member of Parliament."

"If you want to be prime minister, you'd better learn how to be a member of Parliament first," Layton said.

"You know, most Canadians, if they don't show up for work, they don't get a promotion. You missed 70 per cent of the votes."

Ignatieff sputtered that he had no lessons to learn about democracy from Layton but he didn't directly refute the claim. No doubt, that's because Ignatieff's voting record is, on its face, dismal.

 

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jCXP3-j20Xw7BMaPGOGYiXucOXzA?docId=6549639[/quote]

bagkitty bagkitty's picture

Aristotleded24 wrote:

janfromthebruce wrote:
You got it Fidel - Jack's hot!!! Kiss

Remember, he did open the campaing by promising to strip! ;)

Wasn't that actually more of a threat?Wink

Left Turn Left Turn's picture

The opposition leaders did not focus enough on the contempt of Parliament issue in the debate. 'Nor have they given it sufficient focus in the campaign. They should be calling on Harper to resign as Conservative leader.

I firmly believe that in the British Parliament (Westminster), where MP's have much more freedom and do not have to tow the party line, that a Prime Minister found in contempt of Parliament would be forced to resign by their caucus members. I also don't think the British public would not tolerate a Prime Minister who was found in contempt of Parliament running for reelection.

Something along the lines of the following would be appropriate:

"You sir, were found in contempt of Parliament, and you do not deserve to running for the job of Prime Minister of Canada."

ilha formosa

gyor wrote:
the ndp is releasing alot of press releases. Some attacking Harper but it is the ones attacking Iggy that seem to hold a hint of what is to come. I think the gloves are coming off now as Jack has smelt blood. This is where the rest of the election gets really interesting.

Interesting as far as fighting to be the main alternative to the Cons. As far as this debate goes, Jack made big gains on Iggy in that regard.

gyor

Jack made some good moves when appealing to the green vote, very smart moves such as the preportional rep and being up the enviroment and Canadas record. May's response was out lunch and only made Jack look better and herself look worse. I'd place money on May losing her shot at a seat and some of her votes as well to the NDP.

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

May looked really aged in the CBC segment I watched last night, and really tired. I think she's finished in politics now.

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

Jack was a perfect little campaigning machine. He fired every bullet in his arsenal, though not all were well aimed. Unfortunately, the only opponent he managed to wound (and very severely at that) was Iggy. I just hope it doesn't turn out to be a pyrrhic victory.

 

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

Boom Boom wrote:

I think the average, non-political-savvy electorate watching this debate would agree with Harper that he needs a majority to avoid this type of "bickering." If you're not a Conservative, then you see Harper's attitude during the debate as more contemptuous-ness; if you're a Conservative, then this debate was a sordid display of the type of 'bickering' that goes on in QP every day when the House is in session. Sadly, I expect Harper to pick up at least one or two more percentage points in the polls. Ignatieff did not look convincing when he indignantly said this 'bickering' was democracy in action - rather, Ignatieff just looked more haughty and out of touch. Rather silly, actually. Layton and Duceppe in my opinion are the only ones who looked genuine in this farce of a debate. I can't imagine anyone but hardcore Liberals would say Ignatieff did well last night. I think he more like the haughty indignant Count we parody him to be, and less like Joe Lunchbox. I think those percentage points Harper picks up will come at the expense of Ignatieff. This debate made it abundantly clear that Ignatieff should beat a hasty retreat from politics and return to academia.

I thought Iggy's one direct hit was when he attacked Harper on his use of this word. Unfortunately, the impact was lost later, due to what actually was bickering between Iggy and Jack.

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

Jack seemed to be smiling a lot - maybe because he realized this farce of a debate was going to be a breeze for him, like shooting fish in a barrel. He did seem over-eager at times, like the Energizer bunny. He was perfectly positioned - the Energizer Bunny between Darth Vader and the haughty Count.Laughing

gyor

I really wish I had cbc newsworld they are going to translate the french debate into english. I wonder if this will boost the importance of the french debate in the rest of Canada.

Slumberjack

Boom Boom wrote:
May looked really aged in the CBC segment I watched last night, and really tired. I think she's finished in politics now.

She's finished for several other reasons actually.  The tired looking chaps in the debate weren't exactly speaking from a pasture, although they too should be led to one for reasons other than appearance.

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

If Layton had devastated Harper half as much (or at least tried to twice as much) as he did Ignatieff, I'd have likely have enjoyed the debate.

But Harper came away virtually unscathed, well-shielded by a wall of lies and deception - a wall that only Duceppe seemed to try very hard to dismantle, which I don't understand.

ETA

Is it possible Harper is a total sociopath? Who can stand in front of the nation for two hours and blatantly and repeatedly lie his ass off like that?

NorthReport

What about CPAC?

 

gyor wrote:
I really wish I had cbc newsworld they are going to translate the french debate into english. I wonder if this will boost the importance of the french debate in the rest of Canada.

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

I think the average, non-political-savvy electorate watching this debate would agree with Harper that he needs a majority to avoid this type of "bickering." If you're not a Conservative, then you see Harper's patronizing and superior attitude during the debate as more contemptuous-ness; if you're a Conservative, then this debate was a sordid display of the type of 'bickering' that goes on in QP every day when the House is in session. Sadly, I expect Harper to pick up at least one or two more percentage points in the polls. Ignatieff did not look convincing when he indignantly said this 'bickering' was democracy in action - rather, Ignatieff just looked more haughty and out of touch. Rather silly, actually. Layton and Duceppe in my opinion are the only ones who looked genuine in this farce of a debate. I can't imagine anyone but hardcore Liberals would say Ignatieff did well last night. I think Ignatieff came across more like the haughty indignant Count we parody him to be, and less like Joe Lunchbox. I think those percentage points Harper picks up will come at the expense of Ignatieff. This debate made it abundantly clear that Ignatieff should beat a hasty retreat from politics and return to academia. Harper's use of that word "bickering" was brilliantly condescending and likely will be what many remember from this debate - unfortunately.

remind remind's picture

Fidel wrote:
Unionist wrote:
Oh, and dare I say I agree with E. May's comment? She said no one talked about women, indigenous peoples, climate change, or Libya.

She must have missed Jack Layton saying the NDP has nominated even more female candidates this time around.

She must have missed the part of the debate on crime when Jack Layton emphasized that indigenous people are living in grinding poverty with two and sometimes three families crammed together in substandard housing designed for single families.

She must have missed the part where Jack Layton tried to cajole the other two dead end parties to discuss their awful records on the environment and how Canada is viewed by the rest of the world as a corrupt petro state in so many Laytonian words.

But the Liberal and Tory same old story leaders were having none of it. 

Jack actually scored on all of those issues. Iggy the master Harvard debater appeared embarrassed by the Liberals 13 year-long record in power, and Harper's five years have produced similarly bad results.

Didn't watch the debate, so can't really make any comments about who won or lost.

But something was not lost on me. This was the realization the 2 self-professed "Christians" Harper and May, actually have the power/desire to lie blatently to the Canadian public and think nothing of it.

 

 

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

LTJ--Harper IS a sociopath..I've been saying that for a few years.

Glad to see other people realizing the same thing.

knownothing knownothing's picture

I thought the debate was well done. Civilized. I liked the format. All the leaders were strong and I felt proud to be a Canadian. Compared to an American debate where you can't even bring up gun control or health care I was so happy with it. Each leader properly represented his parties views except for Harper. He is looking centrist. I thought Jack made some good points about Harper's fiscal instability and corruption although I'm not sure if any Tory votes would ever change.

The serious homerun was when Jack nailed Iggy on his record. Iggy looked like he was going to shit his pants. Jack looked in trouble with Duceppe's Bill 101. He wouldn't answer it straight and it looked bad.Jack was smart to reach out to the Greens on proportional representation and all the people who don't think the BLOC should have so many seats.

Overall though, Jack needs to be more radical. Afghanistan, when Iggy asked him if he wants to waste all the progress that has been done by our soldiers. Jack should have pointed out truthfully that it will all be wasted in 2014 anyway when we leave but we will break up and endager soldiers and their families for 3 more years. Ron Paul is not scared to defend anti-interventionist foreign policy. Jack needs to take some tips. This is a huge deal for Canadians. Most don't want to be involoved in an American war.

I am also worried about the NDP becoming too centrist. It is clear that the Liberals are scared shitless of us but we are not stealing Liberal votes. We are stealing NDP voters who have been deceived into voting Liberal for too long. As our party grows, we need to stand up for socialist ideals. More anti-capitalist. Talk about gas prices. People care about that. Venezuelans pay 12 cents a gallon. Why don't we own our own gas company?

Harper is a freak. Robot automaton. I don't believe the polls. They are neither pro Tory or pro Liberal but both. They are pro-2 party system. Ndp voters should not be scared of harper majority. They should vote NDP no mater if their candidate is going to lose. Then if we crack 20% pop vote we will be considered an alternative to the Libs and Tories. If you vote strategically, Ndp vote will suffer and we will be back to square 1. You may stop a Harper majority this way but nothing will change that is not already changing with the Libs and Tories in control of the house. With Igyy supporting the Tories in all these bills they practically have a majority already. People need to wake up and get hardore. Grow some balls!

NorthReport

Layton had a very good nite last nite.

 

Quote:
Liberal spin doctors clear winners in debate sideshow

 

Ipsos Reid released an instant poll for Global National showing 42 per cent of viewers believed Mr. Harper won, followed by 25 per cent for Mr. Layton, 23 per cent for Mr. Ignatieff and 2 per cent for Gilles Duceppe.

It also found that Mr. Harper met viewers' expectations as to how he would fare, but that the "big winner" was Mr. Layton: 55 per cent, or a majority of viewers, said their impression of him had improved. This means he could benefit from vote-switchers.

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/liberal-spi...

Unionist

Paulitical Junkie wrote:

I've been thinking about Harper's robotic, Xanax-ed debate performance and how some pundits have praised him for being calm. If Ignatieff had been that way he would have been described as lacking passion, and in the case of Layton he would have been described as looking ill. Ugh, I feel like the corporate media is REALLY pushing for a Con majority.

That's odd. I hate Harper and wish for an anti-Harper alliance. But I saw him as a cool, unruffled, professional liar - able to pull it off because no one was passionate enough and evidence-based enough to bring him down. He seemed like a very busy and rather self-effacing civil servant who was wasting the people's precious time by letting himself be slammed by some whiners, but wanted nothing more than to get back to growing the economy and creating jobs, etc. To put this performance down to some spin by the corporate media is to badly miss the point - that there is no effective opposition, hasn't been for five years, and none on the horizon, unfortunately.

 

NorthReport

Too bad
No game-changing moment
Party leaders true to themes; no big victory for anyone

 

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/special/federal-election/no-game-changi...

NorthReport

Too bad
No game-changing moment
Party leaders true to themes; no big victory for anyone

 

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/special/federal-election/no-game-changi...

NorthReport

Too bad
No game-changing moment
Party leaders true to themes; no big victory for anyone

 

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/special/federal-election/no-game-changi...

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

@northreport:

I saw that article. It was written by Mia Rabson, who just LOVES Lib Kevin Lamoureux. I wouldn't take anything she says seriously. Honestly, she doesn't know what's she is talking about. If you look at her educational background, she is proof that more education doesn't either make someone smarter, or, that it was a good investment on their part.

Really, I wouldn't give her the time of day and you shouldn't either. She is totally useless. You won't see her picture next to "Rocket Scientest".

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

knownothing wrote:
...Jack was smart to reach out to the Greens on proportional representation and all the people who don't think the BLOC should have so many seats.

F*ck him, then. I think the BQ deserve even more seats.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

@Boom Boom:

I understand where you are coming from, but frankly, porportional representation is long overdue. I am tired of my voice not being fairly, and properly represented in the governing house of this country. I stronlgy support the adoption of porportional representation. It is the only way to counter balance the growing strength of the corporatist voice that so dominates national governance.

knownothing knownothing's picture

BoomBoom wrote:

knownothing wrote:
...Jack was smart to reach out to the Greens on proportional representation and all the people who don't think the BLOC should have so many seats.

F*ck him, then. I think the BQ deserve even more seats.

 

Maybe you would advocate a Western seperatist party as well?

knownothing knownothing's picture

BoomBoom wrote:

knownothing wrote:
...Jack was smart to reach out to the Greens on proportional representation and all the people who don't think the BLOC should have so many seats.

F*ck him, then. I think the BQ deserve even more seats.

 

Maybe you would advocate a Western seperatist party as well?

melovesproles

Yeah, fair enuf if you think the Bloc should get more than 65% of Quebec's seats with less than 40% of the vote in Quebec but don't whine about Harper getting a majority with the same percentage of support in Canada.  That's a pretty shabby democratic system in my view, whenever I talk about electoral systems with people from other countries they are just amazed at how archaic and unrepresentative Canada's is.

PR would do a lot to fix some of the more obvious problems in our democracy.  It was good of Layton to bring it up even if it ruffles some Bloc supporters' feathers.  It's too bad May leads the Greens, I'd like to see them do better but if I protest vote this time it'll be for the Pirate Party or some Marxist.  She's brutal.

Wilf Day

Ignatieff's best moment, near the end of the foreign policy question:

Quote:
If we're going to have a foreign policy it's got to be based on democratic values. Respect for Canadians when they go overseas, respect for what they're trying to do, not trying to muzzle people, shut people down. Let some flowers bloom here. Let democracy breathe. Let it live. If you're going to promote it abroad as we should, you've got to respect it at home. You're a man who will shut down anything you cannot control. That's the core of your vision of government. And it's inimical, it's hostile to the values of democracy upon which this country is based.

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