"FLQ manifesto will remain part of Plains of Abraham event, says artistic director"

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toddsschneider

I said: We sit as close to the front as consideration permits, and as close to the back as tolerating the inconsiderate permits.

Point well taken, mon vieux.  "Define your terms" is the first line of reasoning.

What I mean is, there are often some rowdy teens and others in the back, so we stay away from them.  We sit as close to the front as letting the elderly and infirm have their place first, allows.

Or is that ageist and ableist now?

Joel_Goldenberg

Does anyone have any issue with the manifesto's reference to Pierre Trudeau as a "tapette" (queer)?

toddsschneider

So much historical speculation has been proposed lately on the anniversary of the Battle of the Plains of Abraham. 

Bonfires, church bells ringing and social gatherings are all well and good, but there should have been a public symposium organized on the outcome, led by qualified historians.

While engaging, neither a re-enactment of the battle, nor a performance art event, is interactive.  But society is.

toddsschneider

Gilles Duceppe took issue with the verbal abuse of Trudeau by the FLQ.  Also the bombs thingy, although his tears are crocodile ones, since his BQ outfit is so cozy with the JPQ and the RRQ.

But such language, what can you expect from people who threatened to blow up libraries?

Unionist

Joel_Goldenberg wrote:

Does anyone have any issue with the manifesto's reference to Pierre Trudeau as a "tapette" (queer)?

It was written about the same time Tommy Douglas said that queers were mentally ill, so I just took it as a comment on Trudeau's health.

 

toddsschneider

I ride Montreal buses daily, though I seldom sit on the canary perch across from the driver.  It's rude to stare.

I took a look at what's posted around the driver these days.  A quick look showed me: A union plaque, good. A notice, from what I recall, that videos may be recording you.  That could come in handy in the investigation about the ejection of passengers on the No. 66.

And there's a bus ID number,  that could come in handy when berated to speak White, as a male bus driver did to a woman on the No. 203 recently.  She must have provoked it herself, by asking directions.

Of all the nerve.

martin dufresne

I imagine sitting on the bus must be extra painful with your knickers in a permanent twist like that.

SCB4

Not sure how this thread drifted into Montreal transit issues, but I live in Toronto so what do I know?

 

WRT the thread line, I agree with post 49. The manifesto is a seminal document in Quebec history and should be read for its social and contextual significance.

Plus parts of it make me smile. This is my favourite excerpt.

 

 

"Yes, there are reasons why you, Mr. Lachance of St. Marguerite Street, go drowning your despair, your bitterness, and your rage in Molson's horse piss. And you, the Lachance boy, with your marijuana cigarettes..."

 

I've always been partial to Labatt's myselfSmile

bouchecl

Since nobody took the time to post a list of the various texts read at the event, here it is.

I attended the first part of the event earlier today and it is a very solemn gathering. This is no rock concert; the crowd is attentive, serene, almost studious.

Of course, Lord Durham's report got some boos, and Bernard Landry, reading Chevalier de Lorimier's political testament, got spirited cheers, but that was to be expected.

I intend to bring the whole family tomorrow morning for the finale.

martin dufresne

Thanks for posting this list - imagine all the people who have pored over centuries of key writings to choose these texts. I wish I still lived in Quebec City to attend this momentous event. Words do make a nation.

toddsschneider

martin dufresne wrote:

I imagine sitting on the bus must be extra painful with your knickers in a permanent twist like that.

Yes, which is why the bus drivers in question may need to take some negotiated time off as a sanction, maybe stress leave. The Quebec provisions against psychological harassment at work also protect third parties, like customers. Everyone is covered, whether in a collective agreement or not.

I sleep easier knowing I live in such a progressive society.

 

toddsschneider

[self-edited]

martin dufresne

Not being able to answer someone in English in Quebec is psychological harassment...? Have you considered asking Canada for refugee status, Todd? I'd endorse your application in a minute. 

toddsschneider

Having poor language skills, while regrettable, is no sin. But being inconscionably rude is.

I apologize for not arguing my point more clearly.  Here is the other incident I just referred to:

http://www.montrealgazette.com/life/Ashamed+driver/1986151/story.html

Read it, and short of a labour board investigation, decide which side are you on, boys and girls.


 

Unionist

If exactly true as written, the letter illustrates that there are idiotic and arrogant people everywhere (or those who have had a bad day). Anyone who serves the public and insults a customer this way would and should be disciplined.

What I find offensive is the apparent attempt by the Gazette and others to use extremely rare incidents like these to stir up divisions and hatred, just as was done with the irrelevant incidents mentioned by me earlier with regard to reasonable accommodation.

 

George Victor

"It was written about the same time Tommy Douglas said that queers were mentally ill, so I just took it as a comment on Trudeau's health."

 

I thought I knew all the foibles of that minister, amateur boxer out of the working class neighbourhoods where such a sentiment would have been seen as charitable - to put such thoughts in historical context.

 

I'll bet you can enlighten us as to the old text you have taken it from, U?

Unionist

George Victor wrote:

 

I thought I knew all the foibles of that minister, amateur boxer out of the working class neighbourhoods where such a sentiment would have been seen as charitable - to put such thoughts in historical context.

Correct, George, that was my point about the FLQ calling Trudeau "queer" - historical context. You got my point - well done.

Quote:
I'll bet you can enlighten us as to the old text you have taken it from, U?

Indeed, Tommy said this in the prehistoric times of June 9, 1968, during a [url=http://archives.cbc.ca/politics/rights_freedoms/clips/2674/]t... leaders' debate[/url] (starts around 5:40 on the video clip), where he said the following about homosexuality:

T.C. Douglas wrote:
... We must distinguish between sin and crime ... it's a mental illness, a psychiatric condition, which ought to be treated sympathetically, it ought to be treated by psychiatrists and social workers...

We don't rant and rave about "homophobic Tommy" today when hearing those remarks. That was my point about the FLQ's jocular reference. The FLQ did far worse things that call Trudeau a "tapette".

 

George Victor

Thanks.  I would not have thought he still held that view so recently.  If only we could advance our perspective/knowledge in other areas as quickly.

 

"Correct, George, that was my point about the FLQ calling Trudeau "queer" - historical context. You got my point - well done."

 

We tries to keep up, we tries.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Unionist wrote:

Boom Boom wrote:
Yes, but the reality is that there are large numbers of unilingual Anglophones in the province who can trace their roots in this province back many generations, like here on the Lower North Shore, for example. Provincial services are fully available in English here.

And so it is in Montréal, and many other parts of Québec, where unilingual anglophones can live all their lives here and scarcely miss a beat - as I'm sure you'll agree.

That couldn't happen to any other linguistic minority anywhere else in North America, nor in most countries for that matter.


 
I agree whole hardly that the people of Quebec have the right to choose their language and I respect the language laws in place. I do however have to point out that the statement above is really untrue in many centres in Canada. I know people who live in Richmond or Burnaby who live their lives only speaking one of the two dominate Chinese languages. They read Chinese newspapers, listen to Chinese radio, watch Chinese television, have many stores too choose from in every line of business where Chinese is the first language of the sales people. It is also prevalent in the Korean community but not as much as teh Chinese. This is unlike the Italian neighbourhood I grew up in Ontario in the 50's because of all the media outlets and the speciality stores that cater to specific linguistic groups. Unionist maybe you need to travel outside of Quebec more if you are going to make sweeping generalizations about other parts of the country.

___________________________________________  
Soothsayers had a better record of prediction than economists

martin dufresne

Speaking one's language and hearing it back from one's peers in a relatively ghettoized environment - such as that of the Chinese or Korean in certain large Canadian communities - is not the same thing as the situation of Anglophones who manage to get English spoken to them by civil servants practically everywhere in Quebec. I doubt that this is true for the Chinese and Korean anywhere in the country.

Unionist

Yes, kropotkin, with respect, you totally missed my point, and martin's reply got it right.

I wasn't talking about people living in a linguistic cocoon - in some "English quarter" of town - in some ghetto. I was talking about unilingual anglophones in Montréal (and largely elsewhere) who can go from Pre-K to postdoctoral studies in Montréal (and English-only public schooling totally tuition-free up to the end of CEGEP, which is the equivalent of Grade 13); deal with federal, provincial, and municipal officials in English; get health care in English, from GPs to specialists to hospitals to nursing homes; be CEOs of corporations based here; be professional hockey, football, or anything else players on local teams; shop anywhere, eat anywhere, watch movies and TV anywhere in English...

No, kropotkin, this phenomenon does not exist anywhere else in North America. Not even close.

ETA: Thanks for your advice to travel outside Québec. I spent most of my life in Western Canada. I was born to recent immigrants who spoke not a word of English or French. My first language was neither English nor French. But don't you worry... we all learned English lickety-split, others we would have been dead in the water.

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Unionist wrote:

 

ETA: Thanks for your advice to travel outside Québec. I spent most of my life in Western Canada. I was born to recent immigrants who spoke not a word of English or French. My first language was neither English nor French. But don't you worry... we all learned English lickety-split, others we would have been dead in the water.

 

I think that unless you have lived in the Lower Mainland sometime in the last 15 years your knowledge base of this part of the country is very old news and totally out of date.  Besides for that temporal problem if your Western Canada experience was from most of the places that are in Western Canada it would be different than the West Coast. You know we aren't all just the ROC out here in the hinterlands we actually have some diversity in our experiences and that experience is not in stasis. The fact that you see everything through a lens darkly does not mean that your insight is better only different.

___________________________________________

Soothsayers had a better record of prediction than economists

Unionist

kropotkin1951 wrote:
I think that unless you have lived in the Lower Mainland sometime in the last 15 years your knowledge base of this part of the country is very old news and totally out of date.

It's worse than that - I know next to nothing about the Lower Mainland, and I'll defer to your knowledge and experience. If I was mistaken, I'm prepared to learn.

So let's take an example of a child born in Vancouver, to unilingual Chinese-speaking parents (Mandarin, Cantonese, your choice), who never learns to speak English. Tell me which of the following they can do:

1. Free Chinese-language-only public education pre-K to end of Grade 12.

2. Frosh through PhD and post-doctoral studes in a B.C. university - Chinese language only.

3. Information and service from all federal, B.C. and Vancouver authorities and departments, in Chinese only.

4. Full range of health care in Chinese only, from GPs to specialists to hospitals to nursing homes.

5. Rise to CEO of corporation based in Vancouver - no English spoken.

6. Play professional hockey, football, etc. on Vancouver team - no English.

7. Shop anywhere, eat anywhere, watch movies and TV anywhere in Chinese only.

That's the reality for unilingual anglophones in Québec, to the extent that minor exceptions (like not being able to get the time in English from a busdriver) become headline news in the MSM.

Please tell me which of points 1-7 work in the Lower Mainland - or you can substitute Korean or Japanese or Punjabi or any other. I'll take your replies at face value, because as I said, I simply don't know the scene.

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Pretty much 3 to 7 except 6. If they want their children taught in Chinese they pay extra. If I moved to Quebec my english children would not have the opportunity of being educated in english on the public's dime (i did not say this was a bad thing just a fact)

As for the hockey players no, not many unilingual Chinese although we've had a number of unilingual Russian players in hockey. As for 7 I think it is similar to Quebec in the percentages of places one can chose from to be served in the minority language. Unless you are telling me that every store and theatre in Quebec is english friendly?  Where do the french speakers go to watch that great Quebec film industry if english is the only language for movies? Driving across Quebec I had many experiences of small towns were english is not spoken by the serving staff (and I didn't expect tit to be) I also went into many places where english was available. 

 

Unionist

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Pretty much 3 to 7 except 6. If they want their children taught in Chinese they pay extra. If I moved to Quebec my english children would not have the opportunity of being educated in english on the public's dime (i did not say this was a bad thing just a fact)

Well, that's excellent. And I'll bet a foreign student from China studying at SFU wouldn't ridicule a Vancouver busdriver who didn't tell them the time in Mandarin - even if the busdriver was able to stammer out:

"我不会说普通话."

Quote:
Unless you are telling me that every store and theatre in Quebec is english friendly?

Absolutely not - but I'm talking about the regions and cities where unilingual anglophones live. They would not need to bring an interpreter to them to a supermarket or a theatre.

Quote:
Where do the french speakers go to watch that great Quebec film industry if english is the only language for movies?

You're misreading me. English-language Hollywood movies are as available in Montréal as in Toronto. Multiplexes will often offer both versions in different rooms.

Quote:
Driving across Quebec I had many experiences of small towns were english is not spoken by the serving staff (and I didn't expect tit to be) I also went into many places where english was available.

Exactly.

So, in sum, you understand why I criticize the Montreal Gazette for reporting an incident like this? And why one really must question the common courtesy and motivation of a foreign student trying to assert some nonexistent "right" in our society?

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

He had no right to demand being served in english any more than demanding to be served in Urdu.  But the story looks to me like there is very likely a not so subtle undertone of his being a POC from Pakistan.

The problem this foreign student probably suffers from is that in his country I am sure there are enclaves of english speaking people who never learn to speak anything else and treat all the locals with distain if they don't speak the language of empire. He probably had the audacity to consider himself more than just an arab interloper and thought that in Canada like the rest of the world english speakers are allowed to show distain for those who don't speak the language of the empire.

As for the Mandarin speaker in Vancouver the bus driver would likely not know enough Mandarin to be offended by anything that was said no matter what kind of insult he/she was subjected too. The story sounds like two nasty people going at each other for no good reason and you are right there are far more important things our media could be focusing on.

martin dufresne

I challenge the notion that the bus driver was "nasty" because she refused to be hectored about her language skills while driving a bus and put a stop to it.

George Victor

And wasn't about to offer a coup de main.

toddsschneider

Unfortunately, the bus driver put a stop to every passenger's trip at the same time, rather than just the conflicting party's. Reasonably speaking, that seems disproportionate to the "threat".

Snert Snert's picture

In child behaviourist terms, she was "acting out".

martin dufresne

Oh, you're a psychologist too, are you Snert?

Kicking off the offending passenger would have been risky - and would probably have warranted a front-page exposé in The Gazette and Op-Ed from Todd. The proper security procedure in such circumstances is to stop the bus and phone for support.

 BTW: Do you feel the passenger would have been as cheeky with a male bus driver?...

Snert Snert's picture

Do you ride transit?  I ride the TTC every day, and I've seen all manner of petty squabbles between drivers and passengers, none of which required the po-po to intervene, none of which required me to exit the vehicle, and none of which required the next vehicle on the line to refuse to pick me up.

While you're beating the drum of safety and security, I have this funny niggling little feeling that the subtext of "Francophone" and "woman" is what you're really on about.  Otherwise I trust you'd be able to see this as the giant overreaction that it was.  She wasn't in mortal danger because someone pointed out that she can, apparently, speak English.  If the tiniest bit of rudeness is suddenly a clear and present danger then I have to get myself a gun or something.  Gimme a break. 

Quote:
BTW: Do you feel the passenger would have been as cheeky with a male bus driver?...

I have no idea.  Do you think the driver would have petulently called the police if a Francophone had threatened her life by asking the time?

martin dufresne

Re your funny little niggling feeling... no need to give us the coy treatment, Snert. Beside the very real security concern of someone giving pain to the driver of a 5-ton vehicle in heavy traffic, the situation did reflect significant vectors of oppression: a male having a little fun at the expense of a woman in a non-traditional job, an Anglophone feeling entitled to being spoken to in English (even for a matter unrelated to the bus ride).

The same can be said for this discussion where a few (edited for courtesy) feel entitled to dump at length on a public servant because an Anglophone didn't get his way in Quebec. Is this Babble or Free Dominion?

George Victor

That, Martin, is what this Anglo would like to know about your crapping on his experimentation with the concept - very old french - coup de main.  You remember? What in hell were you up to?

martin dufresne

huh...? I just didn't understand why you were suggesting a hostile dimension to the expression "coup de main" when it means "helping hand". (Not that old French BTW, it's in current use in Quebec.) Could you have experimented yourself out of comprehension range?...

George Victor

But it does not mean that in the context I was dealing with, smartass.

 

Google up coup de main.Remember my attempt to get it right, after your dismissal?:

 

Then what IS that military term meaning full, frontal assault? (Need to get this right, obviously).

 

Hey, google gives me:A sudden action undertaken to surprise an enemy. [French : coup, stroke, blow + de, of + main, hand.] An offensive operation that capitalizes on surprise ...
www.thefreedictionary.com/coup+de+main - Cached - Similar

 

What's up with your translator, martin? Or does it mean both, and of course, this dotty Anglo must mean this, and not that? Vive tolerance.

 

 

 

As for your offer of titillating reading:

"What better way to practice your French than digging in every month to eight pages of provocative and insightful social commentary (and cartoons!) by some of our most in-your-face female and male activists, including yours truly?!... (Would you rather get your Quebec news from toddsschneider, Margaret Wente or the National Pest! :-( )"

 

I'll opt for honesty and give it a pass, thanks.

martin dufresne

No need to reach for insults to justify the confusion you created. You Googled an English dictionary. In French, practically no one uses "coup de main" today in the pejorative meaning you alluded to, which is why I missed your (arcane) point.

Glad it revealed your true sentiments, though.

toddsschneider

When you two have finished your mutual denigration society, be constructive.  Go to www.WordReference.com, a great interactive translation site, and start a thread.  

It's international, so you don't have to take one biased informant's word for anything, either.

 

George Victor

My "true sentiments" at this moment, martin, some of them fashioned around "arcane" expressions describing  your ancestry, are not printable, oh snotty one. My original use of coup de main was not pejorative, but in a political sense about political party attacks, as you bloody well know.  

martin dufresne

...(rant) not printable (rant)...

Thank God for traditional Anglo reserve...Wink

My original use of coup de main was not pejorative...

OK, not "pejorative" but "denoting an attack", rather than "a bit of help", as I and any Francophone would have read it. Clear enough?

Also, why don't you stop telling me what I allegedly "bloody well know" when it must be obvious to all but you that this simply a misunderstanding? Some poor jokes just can't be saved by ranting about the listener, you know...

Breathe in... hold... breathe out...

 

George Victor

Early on, I tried for tolerance as I asked whether it had two meanings.

 

"What's up with your translator, martin? Or does it mean both, and of course, this dotty Anglo must mean this, and not that? Vive tolerance."

 

You sidestepped the question and the last conciliatory attempt at humour, chum. And you can quit playing to the gallery and go back to your mirror.

martin dufresne

"Tolerance"... "early on"... that would be less than one and half hour ago, in post #86 where you called me "smartass»"?...

Sheesh...

toddsschneider

It's far from an anglo oppression vs. franco resistance issue here.  The bus driver doesn't deserve "dumping" on, but she doesn't deserve a free ride either, just a fair defence during the investigation.  But it's OK to dump on this passenger because he was impertinent enough to believe he entitled to respect, if not accommodation?

As for the "vectors of oppression", I notice you didn't defend the anglo woman who was harassed by the franco male driver in the other incident I posted about.


George Victor

The appeal for tolerance was made yesterday, at 12:37 p.m. in the thread "Issues, Issues, whose got good unifying issues."

 

Not

"Tolerance"... "early on"... that would be less than one and half hour ago, in post #86 where you called me "smartass»"?...

toddsschneider

In an otherwise lame article in The Gazette

("Transit agency still mum about language beef on bus"), we find this pertinent tidbit:

http://www.montrealgazette.com/life/Transit+agency+still+about+language+...

When Munir retorted that her response showed she did speak English, the driver pressed a panic button that connected her to the STM dispatch centre and ordered all 20 passengers off the bus at the corner of Walkley Ave. and Côte St. Luc Rd.

Drivers use the panic button whenever there is a situation that can affect how they drive the bus, Tremblay said. Such incidents can include aggressive passengers, ill passengers or the bus catching fire, she said.

The STM then sends whatever public safety branch - police, fire or medical assistance - is appropriate.


toddsschneider

martin dufresne wrote:
Kicking off the offending passenger would have been risky - and would probably have warranted a front-page exposé in The Gazette and Op-Ed from Todd. The proper security procedure in such circumstances is to stop the bus and phone for support.

 BTW: Do you feel the passenger would have been as cheeky with a male bus driver?...

Yes, I do.  He doesn't seem to lack a sense of self. 

So you're saying the bus driver who kicked the aggressive teenagers off when I was riding, and let the rest of us us continue on our smug way, put us all in mortal danger? 

From what I recall, there were 4 of them and 1 of him. He didn't lack guts, either.

toddsschneider

 

Unionist wrote:
Please tell me which of points 1-7 work in the Lower Mainland - or you can substitute Korean or Japanese or Punjabi or any other. I'll take your replies at face value, because as I said, I simply don't know the scene.

Almost as if anglo Quebecers have the privileges of other English Canadians. But such privileges have their limits here.

Anyway, the claim is nonsense. Off the island of Montreal, some of those are rare privileges, resentfully delivered, if at all. Check with the Quebec [Anglo] Community Groups Network, and get back to us.

Like, check the figures on anglos in all levels of the civil service in Quebec, a sector progressives should care about passionately.

Furthermore, English-only education in Quebec is a myth, at least in Montreal. It's more like 60 % -40 % French, over the long term. Anyone care to correct this misconception further?

toddsschneider

martin dufresne wrote:
Thanks for posting this list - imagine all the people who have pored over centuries of key writings to choose these texts. I wish I still lived in Quebec City to attend this momentous event. Words do make a nation.

Imagine the type of people who think that 5 readings in English, out of 150+ texts, fairly represents the contributions of that community to Quebec's history, much less its literature, since the Seven Years War.

martin dufresne

I'll accept that argument when McGill University, for instance, makes a substantive effort to be representative of the whole Quebec community.

Oh and George, sorry for not reading the "tolerance" in yesterday's post where you qualified my clarification of the meaning of coup de main by calling it a "snotty little shot". Serves me right for ignoring that gauntlet, eh?

 (Rules of Engagement - I never seem to get them right...)

toddsschneider

Martin, you're more of a moving target than a bus (driver).

To which argument do you refer? As Liberals say about their principles, if you don't like this one, there are another few ready to go.

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