"If we do not win a majority government, this country will have a Liberal government propped up by socialists and separatists"

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Debater

Stockholm wrote:

THat's true, but part of what can help the BQ to win sme of those Conservative seats is if Liberal support rises at the expense of the Conservatives and BQ candidates come up the middle. Last election, the Tories won most of the seats in Quebec City. Most Quebec polls show that the BQ is now in first place in QC with the Tories and Liberals tied for second place.

Yes, what was a huge tide of Conservative support in the Quebec City region in 2006 has been deteriorating over the past year.

I don't think the Liberals mind if the BQ take the Conservative seats in the Quebec City region actually as it will reduce the national Conservative seat total.  The only seat in the Quebec City region that the Liberals are targeting this year is Louis-Hebert.

Fidel

Wilf Day wrote:

yarg wrote:
I don't like harper either, he has as much charisma as the average potato.

Margaret says "that's an insult to potatoes everywhere." Being Irish, she has 78 recipes for potatoes, every one of which is far more exciting than Harper.

I love potato soup, potato pie, salmon or tuna cakes made with potato, potato salad, potato pasties, potatoes in stew(with "Angry" beef especially), potato pie, potato chips(lightly salted), fish n chips, and just about everything I haven't tried yet that has potatoes in the recipe. Apparently there are thousands of different kinds of potatoes, and it's my quest to try as many as I can before I dee. I rrreally like potatoes.

Frmrsldr

Buddy Kat wrote:

Well Harper can do all the stereotyping name calling he wants if his mouthpiece propaganda news services aren't on board it won't fly. Maybe the nDP should start with "tory times are tough times" slogan. Make people think a bit...jeez maybe there is something to that....as they wait for their insurance cheque or stand in line at the food bank.

NDP campaign slogan: "Tory Times are Tough Times."

Sounds like a winner to me!

Sean in Ottawa

No -- that would be a poor slogan. There is too much media about the global recession to get away with that. The slogan has to relate to their management and performance in a crisis not a suggestion however oblique that they caused the crisis. The slogan is also trite and very old and not addressing the tweedle-dummer-- the Liberals. The NDP has to get across the idea that in the storm you want someone in charge who actually gives a shit about you. This concept plays on the old line parties' weaknesses and an NDP strength. In your ads you undermine the competence question as well but the headline is more that these are people who do not care about you and the fact that you are being hurt is not accidental. The cons have not managed in a way that is grossly incompetent anyway- they have made a few political errors but their government has hurt the people they do nto care about and helped those they do care about and it is this fact that they must be called on.

 

Sean in Ottawa

Remind-- but aren't they already Cons so it might not help them. But it might energize their base.

remind remind's picture

Was going to sugest a slogan about the Cons considering women a fringe group, to be silenced and marginalized.

However, that might attract more votes to them, than cause them to be rejected, given the high levels of misogyny in Canada.

remind remind's picture

You do not think there are misogynists outside the ranks of the Cons Sean?

Sean in Ottawa

Sure but most of them pretend not to be

remind remind's picture

voting is secret

Debater

Continuing with the possible fallout of the latest 'separatists' comment:

Even if Harper wins another minority, if he comes back with even fewer seats in Quebec it is going it be one of his biggest problems.  Historically PM's with little support in Quebec do not last long, and it can raise national unity issues.

Right now the Conservative survey in Le Devoir reveals that more Conservative seats are at risk in Quebec.  Meanwhile, the Conservatives' Quebec advisor, former BQ and ADQ member Pierre Brien, has quit, stating he doesn't believe in the party anymore.  On top of that, one of the only strong cabinet ministers that Harper has from Quebec, Lawrence Cannon, is one of the MP's in danger of losing his seat.

Sean in Ottawa

I meant pretend to themselves-- most who would identify themselves as such and see it in themselves are likely fairly right wing.

The part of that iceberg that is below the surface is in those who do not recognize it in themselves-- they may be in any of the other parties but won't respond to a call on that point. Like the attacks on women from this government-- no other party's members would likely identify with those things even if they might be misogynistic.

martin dufresne

Interesting letter from a reader in this morning's Le Devoir (http://www.ledevoir.com/2009/09/12/266662.html). Commenting Harper's leaked speech, in "Contre le bulldozer Harper: l'arme fatale de la coalition, Christian Feuillette concludes:

"...Ce qui est par contre le plus intéressant dans ce fameux discours, c'est lorsqu'il révèle sa peur panique de la coalition, sa bête noire. L'an passé, il avait tellement craint la coalition de l'opposition menée par Stéphane Dion qu'il n'avait pas hésité à fermer le parlement pendant deux mois. Je sais que M. Ignatieff s'est déjà prononcé contre l'idée de coalition, mais il n'y a que les imbéciles qui ne changent pas d'idée. C'est que, et les sondages le confirment, tant que le Bloc sera fort (et il le sera tant que le Québec ne sera pas réintégré dans la Constitution...), nous serons condamnés à un gouvernement minoritaire. Or, dans toutes les démocraties qui se respectent dans le monde, la seule façon de gouverner de façon stable dans un contexte de gouvernement minoritaire, c'est de former une coalition de partis susceptibles de s'entendre sur un programme commun. Ce n'est peut-être pas dans nos traditions parlementaires, mais si on ne veut pas sombrer dans le ridicule et le gaspillage d'élections annuelles, on n'a pas le choix d'innover et d'instaurer dès maintenant cette pratique de la coalition parlementaire."

Debater

Christian Feuillette was the Liberal candidate in Jeanne-Le Ber last year.

Klaipėda

What if Harper gets a minority again and then Governor General will offer the opposition to form the coalition? Ignatieff already refused the idea, so what would happen then?

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

Klaipėda wrote:

What if Harper gets a minority again and then Governor General will offer the opposition to form the coalition? Ignatieff already refused the idea, so what would happen then?

I think this is a highly unlikely scenario. If Harper gets another minority, with more seats than the Liberals, then his party automatically forms the government - right?  I think a coalition would happen only if the Opposition made the proposal to do so, and Iggy has already said no to that idea.

martin dufresne

It's logical that none of the three other parties discuss a coalition before an election in order to get as many seats as possible. What will happen after the election will depend of course on whether the Grits have significantly improved their lot and there is sufficient pressure on them to deal with the NPD.

martin dufresne

It's logical that none of the three other parties discuss a coalition before an election in order to get as many seats as possible. What will happen after the election will depend of course on whether the Grits have significantly improved their lot and if there is sufficient pressure on them to deal with the NPD.

SCB4

Boom Boom wrote:

I think this is a highly unlikely scenario. If Harper gets another minority, with more seats than the Liberals, then his party automatically forms the government - right?  

 

Not necessarily. He can try to form a government, but may not succeed in doing so (see Frank Miller, Ontario, 1985).

 

Boom Boom wrote:

 

I think a coalition would happen only if the Opposition made the proposal to do so, and Iggy has already said no to that idea.

 

He has said no to a Coalition, which to my mind means cabinet seats (at least for the NDP). But he has not said no to an accord or some kind of working arrangement with the NDP and/or Bloc. The problem with this scenario is that I can't see the Liberals and NDP being able to achieve a majority between them. So then Iggy is left with having to deal with the Bloc, and the Conservatives and their acolytes in the media would spin that as a Coalition, Liberals in bed with the separatists, yadda yadda yadda.

Stockholm

Why would he need any formal "deal" with the BQ? Harper has been PM for almost four years without ever having a formal deal with anyone. What's to stop Ignatieff from forming a government after Harper loses a confidence vote after the election and then saying "I dare any party to bring me down and force yet another election".

SCB4

Stockholm wrote:

Why would he need any formal "deal" with the BQ? Harper has been PM for almost four years without ever having a formal deal with anyone.

 

That has everything to do with Liberal party weakness, ineptitude and fear that making eye contact with Harper could trigger a Conservative majority.

 

 

Stockholm wrote:

What's to stop Ignatieff from forming a government after Harper loses a confidence vote after the election and then saying "I dare any party to bring me down and force yet another election".

 

Well, that could play out. There is always the risk of over-playing one's hand (a la Joe Clark in 1979).

 

 

Stockholm

Next time anyone here Harper or any of his minions railing about the dangers of a government supported by "socialists" (sic.) and "separatists" (double sic.) - I think the perfect response is to ask "I'm not sure why Mr. Harper has a problem with a government role for so-called socialists, when he just appointed another "socialist" to be Canadian ambassador to the US - a position that is arguable more influential and important than any cabinet portfolio?

Stephen Harper - appointing a KNOWN SOCIALIST to represent Canada in Washington! How can we ever trust him??

Winston

If there is an election this fall (which there probably will), Jack's messaging should focus on the need for cooperation and civility in Parliament.  The truth is that Canadian's have sent three minority parliaments to Ottawa in a row.  It is up to the parties themselves to compromise to make it work.  It is clear that the Bloc and the NDP are willing to work with whomever to get work done in the Commons, but the Liberals and Tories seem BOTH to think that they somehow are entitled to phony majorities.  If Jack can say, "I will work with anybody for the good of Canadians: give me a majority or a minority, either way if the NDP has the most seats, there will not be an election for four years," I think that would resonate with Canadians.

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

I wonder if Jack will announce he's running to be Prime Minister again? Sealed

Unionist

Why doesn't he say: "I'm running to be Leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition?" That would be a more modest goal and might resonate.

The business about being Prime Minister seemed a tad delusional. I almost didn't vote for Mulcair when Layton said that silly thing. We do like politicians that recognize reality to a small extent.

 

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

LaughingLaughingLaughing

NorthReport

Unionist don't you remember two elections ago, my how time flies when you are having fun by-the-way, when Jack said he was not going for the pm position, he was viciously attacked by the MSP, i.e. the Liberals, who suggested there is no use wasting your vote on some guy who is not running to be PM.

Actually I think Harper might be on a roll here. I'm sure he would not make a comment about socialists and separatists unless it was already tested in focus groups. It sounds like a winner to me, particularly outside of Quebec.   Tongue out

Sad but true.

Wilf Day

Klaipėda wrote:
What if Harper gets a minority again and then Governor General will offer the opposition to form the coalition?

The GG does not offer anything to anyone right after the election. Harper has the right to meet the House. 

Quote:
If no party gets a clear majority, the Cabinet that was in office before and during the election has two choices. It can resign, in which case the Governor General or Lieutenant-Governor will call on the leader of the largest opposition party to form a Cabinet. Or the Cabinet already in office can choose to stay in office and meet the newly elected House — which, however, it must do promptly. In either case, it is the people’s representatives in the newly elected House who will decide whether the “minority” government (one whose own party has fewer than half the seats) shall stay in office or be thrown out.

Fidel

Unionist wrote:
The business about being Prime Minister seemed a tad delusional. I almost didn't vote for Mulcair when Layton said that silly thing. We do like politicians that recognize reality to a small extent.

Awww Are you sure that's all it would take for you to be turned off of the NDP? Youve expressed so much superficial doubt and concern about the NDP during your time here that I think youve met yourself coming. What would Diefenbaker do?

Unionist

Fidel wrote:

What would Diefenbaker do?

Win the biggest majority in history by inspiring people. Cancel the Avro Arrow, despite the appetite for Canada to be a big player in the arms race. Enact the first Bill of Rights. Maintain good relations with Cuba and China in defiance of the U.S. imperialists. Advance aboriginal rights, ever so little, but for the first time. Extend the right to vote to prisoners. Stand up to the U.S., the Liberals of Pearson, and Bay Street on keeping Canada nuclear weapons-free, even if it cost him his government. You know, courageous stuff. I know, I know, you haven't seen much of that lately. Don't worry, it'll come back.

NorthReport wrote:
Unionist don't you remember two elections ago, my how time flies when you are having fun by-the-way, when Jack said he was not going for the pm position, he was viciously attacked by the MSP, i.e. the Liberals, who suggested there is no use wasting your vote on some guy who is not running to be PM.

Yes, I remember that, and of course Mr. Layton gets sucked right in and lets the MSM set the NDP's agenda. It worked splendidly - he ran for PM and earned the admiration and respect of all the Conservative and Liberal hack journalists, didn't he? Wow.

 

Fidel

But would Diefenbaker acquiesce to the NDP's request to reform EI in order to stave off an election?

And I must admit that the Tories were once popular for certain of their policies for public sector economy, especially publicly owned and controlled electricity generation and distribution here in Ontario. The Liberals, otoh, were always ready to pawn it off for a song. Anything that was profitable, they had dollar signs in their eyes with thoughts of making tidy commissions on the sales of.

Wilf Day

Fidel wrote:
But would Diefenbaker acquiesce to the NDP's request to reform EI in order to stave off an election?

John Diefenbaker extended unemployment insurance benefits due to rising unemployment around 1958. The Diefenbaker government extended unemployment insurance benefits by 6 weeks, which is longer than the 5 week extension the current Tories brought forward.

 

 

Debater

NorthReport wrote:

Unionist don't you remember two elections ago, my how time flies when you are having fun by-the-way, when Jack said he was not going for the pm position, he was viciously attacked by the MSP, i.e. the Liberals, who suggested there is no use wasting your vote on some guy who is not running to be PM.

Actually I think Harper might be on a roll here. I'm sure he would not make a comment about socialists and separatists unless it was already tested in focus groups. It sounds like a winner to me, particularly outside of Quebec.   Tongue out

Sad but true.

You certainly are a big admirer of Stephen Harper.  You've posted your observations about his brilliance and genius in several threads today.

Frmrsldr

Debater wrote:

You certainly are a big admirer of Stephen Harper.  You've posted your observations about his brilliance and genius in several threads today.

Harper ain't no genius. He's a political animal whose instincts, so far, have been right. His biggest political blunders have been the reason why in two elections he's been unable to form a majority government. His stubborn ideological rigidity has cost him Quebec twice. It's either his failure to understand Quebec or he gambled twice and failed, (or both) that he would garner enough votes in the West that he would win a majority government without Quebec's support.Tongue out

Debater

Well I was kind of being sarcastic when I called him a genius - that's the way NR is always portraying him.

There is no doubt Harper is very smart in some ways - he's the strongest leader the right has had in Canada in many years, but as you point out he has blown it on several occasions as well.

In 2004 he moved ahead in the polls and had the chance to win but then began talking about a majority and acted like he had already won the election -as a result voters moved away and Paul Martin won a minority.  In 2006 he once again had a chance at a majority but broached the subject again and ended up with only a minority.  And in 2008 when he was on his way to a majority he made a badly calculated and nasty remark about artists that blew up his campaign in Quebec overnight and cost him a majority.

 

martin dufresne

There is no doubt Harper is very smart in some ways...

 

groan...

NDPP

 Only in that ridiculous excuse for a mind belonging to Canada's prime minister, could the No Difference Party possibly be characterized as "socialists". What a joke. A plague on all their houses..

janfromthebruce

Funny, and this has to do with the last election - every leader should be runner for PM. Considering that Layton in terms of leadership scores, almost scored as high as Harper, not sure if the rest of the public saw him as a Joke.

I sure didn't. NDP were running to win - just not the conscious of govt.

We have a liberal leader who is provoking an election just so he can PM - nothing more - he just feels like he can do better. LOL

remind remind's picture

Layton should be running on the platform to be PM, I agree Jan.

Unionist

Wilf Day wrote:

Fidel wrote:
But would Diefenbaker acquiesce to the NDP's request to reform EI in order to stave off an election?

John Diefenbaker extended unemployment insurance benefits due to rising unemployment around 1958. The Diefenbaker government extended unemployment insurance benefits by 6 weeks, which is longer than the 5 week extension the current Tories brought forward.

Thank you, Wilf - I'd forgotten that one. Those were the days when "Conservative" had a very different meaning than it does today. But his courageous stands (forget about the foolish ones for a moment) put all of today's political leaders to shame. That's why they all had to team up to destroy him - they couldn't control him.

 

George Victor

Yes, a conservative judge also blessed the closed shop and universal medicare as I recall.

The Conservative handle has indeed become less than progressive.

Unionist

George Victor wrote:

Yes, a conservative judge also blessed the closed shop and universal medicare as I recall.

Ivan Rand was a Liberal I thought (at least, the Liberals were in power in NB when he was named Attorney General in 1924). And Emmett Hall was indeed one of the greatest jurists and civil libertarians in our history (IMHO) - he was appointed to the Supreme Court by Dief.

Fidel

If it wasn't for renegging on his election campaign promise to reverse the Liberals' Trans-Canada Pipeline natural gas betrayal, and handing over an entire aircraft industry to the Yanks, Diefenbaker's conservatives might have stood a chance for re-election.

And Pearson had little choice in the matter of medicare. It was either make universal health care the law of the land, or let the next government take  credit for the CCF's great idea and western hemispheric first in Saskatchewan.

Wilf Day

[img]http://beta.images.theglobeandmail.com/archive/00227/Harper__Layton_a_22...

Bloc Quebecois Leader Gilles Duceppe, Conservative Leader Stephen Harper and New Democratic Party Leader Jack Layton share a laugh during a news conference in Ottawa on Sept. 9, 2004.

Krago

If you could crop out Harper and Layton, that would make an excellent campaign poster for the Bloc!

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

Laughing

500_Apples

Harper is trying to turn "socialist" into a dirty word like it is in the USA. Will he succeed?

Stockholm

...especially after he appointed a "socialist" (sic.) to be Canada's ambassador to the US.

janfromthebruce

Stockholm wrote:

...especially after he appointed a "socialist" (sic.) to be Canada's ambassador to the US.

great come back Stock - LOL

500_Apples

Sorry Stockholm, I really don't see how that's pertinent.

Gary Doer's job in the US is to follow Harper's orders.

He will not be determining economic policy.

A popular and telegenic NDPer is now less likely to succeed Jack Layton one day.

A popular and telegenic NDPeris removed from provincial office in Manitoba, increasing the likelyhood conservatives can take office in Regina.

janfromthebruce

ah, 500_Apples, don't you mean Winnipeg?

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