Justin Trudeau elbows Ruth Ellen Brosseau

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Pondering

Unionist wrote:

Arthur Cramer wrote:

In all of this, the most amazing thing is how Trudeau came out smelling like roses while REB, the NDP, and Mulcair are facing the wrath of the Canadian voting public. All this has done is create even more good will for Trudeau. Canadians are truly, stupid, brain hollow, fools.

Well, at a certain point, progressive folks need to get a brain and learn how to avoid provocations which can only serve our enemies. Far too late, the NDP decided wisely to drop this issue. It would have been much better - and yes, much more difficult - to laugh it off at the very outset. 

In the end this entire kerfuffle matters not. Most people will decide who to vote for in the few weeks leading up to the next election in 2019. By then this incident will be long forgotten.

Arthur, people are preoccupied with their own lives, focused on what impacts them directly on a day to day basis. That isn't stupid or moronic it's just human. In their downtime they want to relax not argue politics when there is nothing they can do about it until the next election. To them it may even seem stupid to obsess over politics instead of doing something more productive or interesting.

I am barely checking the news right now. In my off time I still have basic housework to do, and meal preparation, and then I want to unwind. I am watching programs like Houdini and Doyle when I have downtime. Nothing in the news is going to impact my life and even if it were there is nothing I can do about it. That doesn't make me moronic or stupid.

Orange Crushed wrote:
I can understand some of your anger and despair Mr. Cramer, but when even genuine progressive activists keep buying into the notion that a left-of centre coalition with the neo-Liberals is the only way to defeat the neo-Conservatives then it's easy to see how the average voter with little time for politics will buy into the notion that the Liberals too are left of centre. That Trudeau is his father and his father was Pearson etc.    I believe what needs to be repeated over and over again is that the Liberals are centre-right, the Cons far right, and the vast centre-left is open to anyone who's willing and able to claim it.

Most people don't care about left/right/centre and if anything would consider themselves centrist or moderate. Life is pretty good for most people in Canada. There are some problems but most people think things require tweaking not upheaval. For that reason the NDP tilted towards the centre and is continuing to hug it. The NDP's first priority became getting elected and an argument can be made for that. Nathan Cullen is of that school of thought. The point of a political party is to get elected because winning power is what will allow the party to deliver on its political agenda. The counter-argument to that is that the NDP was created as a movement, not just a political party, therefore has a responsibility to be on the side of social justice particularly for workers and that they have impacted legislation. Members think it is their party so should reflect their views. NDP leaders think of members as followers that should support the party.

Orange Crushed wrote:
It won't do the NDP any good to put down the average voter though. They may surprise you yet, another generation is coming up that faces diminishing prospects, more access to alternative media, and may be more resistant to all the old cold war rhetoric conflating socialism with communism and neo-liberalism with genuine social democracy.  Freeing up the markets, that is the rich and powerful oligarchs who dominate it, isn't the same as freeing the average worker or dispossessed, for example.  Those are the small kind of points that I think need to be impressed on people before they start to see through the decades of bs.

I agree, but I don't think the points can be or need to be made in those terms. People want plain English. For example, TTP will prevent Canada from favoring Canadian companies when constructing bridges or issuing any government contracts for data management for example. Corporations will be able to sue us just like TransCanada is suing the US for rejecting Keystone XL.

Sanders and Corbyn both zeroed in on financial markets and trade deals, they both targeted the "1%", the uber-wealthy.

Orange Crushed wrote:
That's all I'm saying here.  And it'll have to be the members, not the leaders, who will have to lead on that too. Then the leaders might have the courage to follow.

Not members. Ordinary people. We have to find a way to focus and communicate the essential knowledge that will lead people to come to the same basic joint conclusions that most of us here have.

Of the top of my head that would be:

     There is a class of people who are taking more than their fair shared of Earth's bounty.

     The political and financial systems has been corrupted and tilted in their favor.

     Money is being redistributed upwards and it is hurting the economy and the financial well-being of the working and middle classes.

     We need to seriously address climate change which will improve our lives not limit us.

 

Reversing it all will be easy once the 99% demands it. Elbowgate is meaningless. People are not stupid or morons for ignoring it.

 

Pondering

lagatta wrote:
The number, as you say, isn't so important. The NDP was wise to drop the issue - it is important to continue to speak out against violence against women and misogyny in Parliament and politics - but not give the Liberals ammunition to accuse Ashton or Brosseau of conflating Trudeau's unparliamentary behaviour with systemic violence against women. There will be plenty of opportunities (alas) for them and other women in politics to stand up for victims of those things. 

But Ashton already conflated Trudeau's actions with violence against women. Nobody paid attention and she is currently unimportant so it won't impact her. The NDP would have been wise not to have a fit in the first place.

lagatta wrote:
The extended honeymoon with JT is understandable as we contemplate the depth of the damage the Harper government has caused; it will take time to reveal the inevitable clouds amidst "Sunny ways".

And what difference would it make? Harper was horrible, over and over and over and over again. He did outrageously terrible things. He still got a majority government and was dangerously close to winning another mandate at times. He only lost because his government was finally getting to 10 year mark. Unless we get a Corbyn or Sanders, and even then, I predict JT will be PM for 10 to 15 years, not because I want it that way, I just think that is the way it will play out unless some really good competition shows up. 

lagatta wrote:
Hardline Liberal supporters are delighting in calling people to their left "haters" (whether those people are NDPers or other leftists more grounded in the workers' or social movements). It is the flip side of the strategic voting nonsense.  

I haven't seen people on the left being called haters anywhere, and it was the NDP pushing strategic voting not the Liberals.

 

Pondering

mark_alfred wrote:

Yes.  People got quite defensive over their prince this time.  But the fact that not everything is as sunny as the prince proclaims it to be, regardless of whom people were assessing the blame to, did get through.  And there's certainly more challenges for this government in the future.  People may not be quite so defensive of the prince in the future.

Ignore the prince. He is but a distraction. He cannot be beat on his own turf therefore the battle must be fought elsewhere which is as it should be.

If anything Trudeau's stature is even higher than before elbowgate. There is no need for defensiveness. People defended him because they thought the NDP and critics in general were exagerating. Being on the same side as the Conservatives didn't help either. It left the impression that the Conservatives and the NDP were making a big deal out of it for partisan gain.

Pondering

Arthur Cramer wrote:

takeitslowly wrote:

canadians dont care about the political process, they want to complain but they also dont mind what the liberals do, they can do anything as far as the public is concerned because majority governments are supposed to be a dictatorship, why do we even have the media, except for sensational and entertainment news pretending to be politically related

Regarding the media, its even worse than that. There is a real incestuous relationship that exists between the media and establishment politicians in the Lib and Tory parties. They travel in the same, elite, smug, unaware, and tone deaf signals. All you have to do for proof is watch that joke on CBC that passes for "Canada's top rated political panelt'. They spend all their time talking to each other, complimenting themselves and revelling in how much smarter they are than the rest of us. Its pathetic!

I think it is a mistake to disparage them. They are just like us. They are products of their upbringing and their social circle just as we are. They are considered mainstream. Dissing them is a distraction from the information that needs to be communicated.

pookie

Sigh.

Pondering

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Pondering wrote:

If any of it stuck it would be to the benefit of the Conservatives and the NDP if Trudeau were damaged by this. I saw the video, I didn't see anyone getting assaulted. This doesn't even compare to Rob Ford knocking down that elderly woman. Was it inappropriate? Sure, I will give you that, and if that was all the criticism he was getting a lot of people would probably agree. The reason it is backfiring is the exageration and dramatic accusations. The NDP is more upset about this than they are about the actual bill.

one of my FB friends wrote:

I have learned a few things from my FB friends over the last two weeks. If the wife of the PM complains that she is overwhelmed and needs more help than a chief and secretary and two nannies it is just nasty to tell her to suck it up and stop being such a drama queen. However if a female elected MP gets elbowed by the PM there is no doubt that unlike Sophie she should shut her mouth and suck it up because that is just part of life. No disconnect there!!!

I think that you seem to have been doing that very thing here on babble as well. 

You are wrong. REB herself did not claim to be traumatized nor did she experience the incident as violence against women. REB was physically injured, it was painful, so she withdrew for a few minutes to gather herself. It is other people that tried to make it into a feminist issue not REB.

SGT is doing what most Canadians want her to be doing and she is doing it without pay because her position is not formalized or official. Apparently she is in very high demand so has many requests to field. Imagine the outcry if she didn't respond to the requests. If she charged for appearances she could afford to hire her own staff but imagine the outrage if she did. You would be among the first to condemn her for immorally profiting from her position. She can't win because she is Trudeau's wife and a member of the 1% so in your eyes she can't be of good character.

wage zombie

Many in my facebook feed who are inclined to vote NDP were viscerally annoyed by what they saw as the actions of the NDP and their opinion of Trudeau went up.  These aren't just Liberals being excessively vocal.

I think there is much to unpack in the whole thing.  As an example, I tried asking the question, "what would you do if a manager at your work grabbed you and tried to drag you to your desk?"  However that was the wrong question.  A more appropriate question would've been, "You know those slackers at work who waste everyone's time?  Wouldn't you just like to grab them and drag them to their desk for once?"

There are all kinds of cultural assumptions about how the public will respond to situations, and a lot of the time our assumptions are wrong.

Orange Crushed

That's evidently too true.  Are your NDP-leaning friends aware however that Parliament isn't just some desk job, and that delaying tactics are perfectly legimate and sometimes necessary, especially when a government is trying to reduce the Loyal Opposition's already limited rights?  Or should I say our rights, the 61% who didn't vote for them?  In hindsight, that's a question I'd use.  

Orange Crushed

Pondering wrote:

Arthur Cramer wrote:

takeitslowly wrote:

canadians dont care about the political process, they want to complain but they also dont mind what the liberals do, they can do anything as far as the public is concerned because majority governments are supposed to be a dictatorship, why do we even have the media, except for sensational and entertainment news pretending to be politically related

Regarding the media, its even worse than that. There is a real incestuous relationship that exists between the media and establishment politicians in the Lib and Tory parties. They travel in the same, elite, smug, unaware, and tone deaf signals. All you have to do for proof is watch that joke on CBC that passes for "Canada's top rated political panelt'. They spend all their time talking to each other, complimenting themselves and revelling in how much smarter they are than the rest of us. Its pathetic!

I think it is a mistake to disparage them. They are just like us. They are products of their upbringing and their social circle just as we are. They are considered mainstream. Dissing them is a distraction from the information that needs to be communicated.

 

I've never considered that angle.  So wealthy contemptuous self serving elites are just like the working people they parasite off.  Thanks for the novel insight. 

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Orange Crushed wrote:

Pondering wrote:

Arthur Cramer wrote:

takeitslowly wrote:

canadians dont care about the political process, they want to complain but they also dont mind what the liberals do, they can do anything as far as the public is concerned because majority governments are supposed to be a dictatorship, why do we even have the media, except for sensational and entertainment news pretending to be politically related

Regarding the media, its even worse than that. There is a real incestuous relationship that exists between the media and establishment politicians in the Lib and Tory parties. They travel in the same, elite, smug, unaware, and tone deaf signals. All you have to do for proof is watch that joke on CBC that passes for "Canada's top rated political panelt'. They spend all their time talking to each other, complimenting themselves and revelling in how much smarter they are than the rest of us. Its pathetic!

I think it is a mistake to disparage them. They are just like us. They are products of their upbringing and their social circle just as we are. They are considered mainstream. Dissing them is a distraction from the information that needs to be communicated.

 

I've never considered that angle.  So wealthy contemptuous self serving elites are just like the working people they parasite off.  Thanks for the novel insight. 

Pondering, Orange Crushed pretty much nailed it. The elites are nothing like me. If they are like you, bully for you. I've noticed that you are always extremely quick to defend the upper crust. Why is that? As Orange Crushed pointed out, the elites are no where anything like the people they parasite off. They travel in different social circles, write off everything in sight, using pprovisions of the tax code that the VAST MAJORITY of Candians will NEVERE be able to acces, play around at social reform on the edges, and every 4 years, with the help of the MSM, dupe Canadians into maintaining the status quo. People like Justin Trudeau, and Sopie Trudeau, are no where like me. They've not faced the kind of difficulites over the course of their lives caused by under employment,  financial stress caused by the failure of employers to pay a fair wage, among other things. I think it is so very telling how you always are so quick to defend them. You may be quite satisfed with the status quo, but I'm not. And stop telling me that my comments are a "distraction". How dismissive. How arrogant. How just plain rude. I say it again, you are no smarter than any of the rest of us posting on here. Stop acting like you are. Its insulting, demeaning to us, and just plain rude. Try and understand that you aren't as smart as you think you are, and, that you aren't fooling anyone on here.

Mighty Middle

The NDP needs a time out

Party's preoccupation with the trivial is like the political edition of Groundhog Day

https://nowtoronto.com/news/the-ndp-needs-a-time-out/

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Imagine the audacity of the Conservatives in Newfoundland engaging in a filibuster. Don't they know that opposition delaying tactics in the face of a majority government have become passe. Apparently the Liberals there have more patience so Premier didn't need to physically grab elected parliamentarians to herd them to their seats because they were wasting his time.

Misfit Misfit's picture

I'll bet they weren't called a piece of shit either.

Pondering

Arthur Cramer wrote:

Orange Crushed wrote:

Pondering wrote:

Arthur Cramer wrote:

takeitslowly wrote:

canadians dont care about the political process, they want to complain but they also dont mind what the liberals do, they can do anything as far as the public is concerned because majority governments are supposed to be a dictatorship, why do we even have the media, except for sensational and entertainment news pretending to be politically related

Regarding the media, its even worse than that. There is a real incestuous relationship that exists between the media and establishment politicians in the Lib and Tory parties. They travel in the same, elite, smug, unaware, and tone deaf signals. All you have to do for proof is watch that joke on CBC that passes for "Canada's top rated political panelt'. They spend all their time talking to each other, complimenting themselves and revelling in how much smarter they are than the rest of us. Its pathetic!

I think it is a mistake to disparage them. They are just like us. They are products of their upbringing and their social circle just as we are. They are considered mainstream. Dissing them is a distraction from the information that needs to be communicated.

 

I've never considered that angle.  So wealthy contemptuous self serving elites are just like the working people they parasite off.  Thanks for the novel insight. 

Pondering, Orange Crushed pretty much nailed it. The elites are nothing like me. If they are like you, bully for you. I've noticed that you are always extremely quick to defend the upper crust. Why is that? As Orange Crushed pointed out, the elites are no where anything like the people they parasite off. They travel in different social circles, write off everything in sight, using pprovisions of the tax code that the VAST MAJORITY of Candians will NEVERE be able to acces, play around at social reform on the edges, and every 4 years, with the help of the MSM, dupe Canadians into maintaining the status quo. People like Justin Trudeau, and Sopie Trudeau, are no where like me. They've not faced the kind of difficulites over the course of their lives caused by under employment,  financial stress caused by the failure of employers to pay a fair wage, among other things. I think it is so very telling how you always are so quick to defend them. You may be quite satisfed with the status quo, but I'm not. And stop telling me that my comments are a "distraction". How dismissive. How arrogant. How just plain rude. I say it again, you are no smarter than any of the rest of us posting on here. Stop acting like you are. Its insulting, demeaning to us, and just plain rude. Try and understand that you aren't as smart as you think you are, and, that you aren't fooling anyone on here.

I think it is a mistake to disparage them. They are just like us. They are products of their upbringing and their social circle just as we are. They are considered mainstream. Dissing them is a distraction from the information that needs to be communicated.

You misunderstand what I am saying and don't hear the message. They are just like us in the sense that they are a product of their upbringing. They weren't born evil and they aren't evil now. Trying to convince voters that Trudeau is evil will only backfire. If the goal is just to rant for the hell of it fine. I was under the impression the NDP wants to win elections. To win an election the NDP has to consider how their actions will be percieved by the electorate not that it matters that much right now. The NDP's brand can still be hurt. The NDP has quieted down a lot since that incident so I am guessing they finally figured out their strategy is a dud.

Pondering

Orange Crushed wrote:

That's evidently too true.  Are your NDP-leaning friends aware however that Parliament isn't just some desk job, and that delaying tactics are perfectly legimate and sometimes necessary, especially when a government is trying to reduce the Loyal Opposition's already limited rights?  Or should I say our rights, the 61% who didn't vote for them?  In hindsight, that's a question I'd use.  

I doubt it would sway their opinions. The NDP couldn't prevent the legislation from passing so for some people the NDP just delayed the business of parliament, wasted time. Aside from that by attacking Trudeau their objections to the legislation were lost because the media always goes to the most sensationalistic news, which was what the NDP was counting on. They were just planning on having it hurt Trudeau's reputation especially with women.

The reality is that most people really don't care about the inner workings of parliament. They elect a government to run the country for four or five years and that's the end of it unless there is something big going on, and even then, CETA isn't big enough.

We live in a democracy. That means you have to sway the majority, or at least a very large minority. In todays political climate in Canda only a Corbyn, or a Sanders will unseat Trudeau. There is a very good chance that Canadians will give him 3 terms, possibly even 4.  There are very few issues big enough to get attention. Winning will take laser focus and that is not what I am seeing. I am seeing people just hit out at whatever is happening in the moment. That's a recipe for losing. Attacking Trudeau directly won't work and in any case he isn't the issue. Neoliberalism is.

Pondering

wage zombie wrote:

There are all kinds of cultural assumptions about how the public will respond to situations, and a lot of the time our assumptions are wrong.

I'm guessing most people here have tried to pursuade people to their way of thinking and not made a lot of progress. I know I haven't had any success. I think a fresh approach is needed and it will take people working together with a marketing focus to sway enough people to make a difference.

lagatta

I don't "get" admiring Corbyn and Sanders and fawning over an ignorant trust-fund baby, or upper=class twit. Yes, we do live in a bourgeois democracy as opposed to under a fascist dictatorship or theocreatic régime, but the cards are still loaded in the preference of people like Justin.

NorthReport

Go get'em Justin - fuck the Canadian people just your predecessor did.

TPP heightens urgency for national drug coverage in Canada

The new free trade agreement allows drug companies to maintain patents longer, keeping prices high and out of reach of many Canadians

 

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2016/07/06/tpp-heightens-urge...

Mighty Middle

NorthReport wrote:

Go get'em Justin - fuck the Canadian people just your predecessor did.

TPP heightens urgency for national drug coverage in Canada

The new free trade agreement allows drug companies to maintain patents longer, keeping prices high and out of reach of many Canadians

 

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2016/07/06/tpp-heightens-urge...

But then...

Medical marijuana use linked to lower prescription drug use

http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/medical-marijuana-prescription-drugs-1.366...

 

Pondering

lagatta wrote:

I don't "get" admiring Corbyn and Sanders and fawning over an ignorant trust-fund baby, or upper=class twit. Yes, we do live in a bourgeois democracy as opposed to under a fascist dictatorship or theocreatic régime, but the cards are still loaded in the preference of people like Justin.

Exactly, and that is the way it is going to stay unless people who oppose neoliberalism learn how to win battles and ultimately the war. Isn't the definition of "stupid" doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome? Yet most of the left keeps doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome.

Meanwhile the far right has had decades of think tanks that don't give a shit about converting people to neoliberalism. Instead they focused on developing and implementing marketing plans to gain support. They have been massively successful and the left has helped them do it.

Even if you succeeded in getting rid of Trudeau it would not impact the core problem. The Liberals got demonized from Adscam, yay, the NDP succeeded, which gave us 10 years of Harper's reform party masquerading as conservatives. Now your plan is to go after Trudeau which will most likely lead to the Conservatives eventually replacing the Liberals in 4 to 15 years. Again the NDP will take the approach of trying to demonize both the Liberals and Conservatives and again it won't work.

If people on the left cannot or will not dispassionately examine what works and doesn't to sway people then we are doomed even though the people are ready to rise up. If you "don't get" how these men (and women) are getting support then you are never going to take it away from them. They will keep winning and you will keep losing.

With today's "left" the French Revolution would never have occurred because the left would have been attacking the peasants for being insufficiently enlightened on a variety of topics and rejecting any support they might get because it would be for the wrong reasons and various left factions would have been arguing about what should come next and attacking each other.

The right studied language and marketing and they studied the people that they would have to sway and the ones they could safely ignore. The goal of the right is to win. The goal of the left is to convince everyone that they should win because the right is so mean and nasty. I think winning is a better goal but not the way Nathan Cullen wants to do it because that isn't defeating neoliberalism which is the only real win. Having the NDP manage our neoliberal economy is only a win for the NDP as a business entity. It won't change anything fundamental.

Anyone who thinks the NDP wouldn't have signed TPP if the States signed it is wrong. They would have been way too afraid to be locked out of 40% of world trade.

Corbyn was the only honest politician on either side of the Brexit argument. He didn't support Brexit so he isn't revolutionary enough for leftists but he did try to explain what was problematic about the EU structure. Sanders may be off the mark but at least he is pointing at the trade deals and wall street.

In the meantime everyone here would rather obsess over Trudeau every bit as much as his admirers as if getting rid of Trudeau would actually change something significant.

When militaries study each other's tactics it isn't necessarily to duplicate them although they may use some learned techniques. It's also to learn how to defeat them.

Probably more than anyone else here I understand the "low information" voters that the left needs to attract but they are also people the "left" prefers to disparage than recruit. The left would rather lose on the altar of purity then have the support of the masses.

Lagatta, how many people do you think you have managed to convert in your lifetime and how many people do you think have duplicated your success? Have you managed to convince your family because the only person in my family whose politics I have influenced is my daughter's. Nobody even wants to talk about trade deals nevermind actively oppose them.

quizzical

offs pondering. talk down much? i think you're portraying others on the "left", if you believe there's such a fkn thing, to be what you're saying when it's you saying it. own it.  it's you imposing your beliefs n others on the "left"

look at what all the "right's"clever marketing has done in the USA? it's brought them Trump. yup they where clever all right.

just like the Liberals cleverness in marketing will eventually fail them.

 

Pondering

quizzical wrote:
   offs pondering. talk down much?

No more than most people here.

quizzical wrote:
   i think you're portraying others on the "left", if you believe there's such a fkn thing, to be what you're saying when it's you saying it. own it.  it's you imposing your beliefs n others on the "left"

I'm not imposing any beliefs I'm expressing how I have seen "the left" and "the right" fight for the past 40 years.

quizzical wrote:
look at what all the "right's"clever marketing has done in the USA? it's brought them Trump. yup they where clever all right.

They haven't failed. Clinton is positioned to be the next President of the US. If anything Trump served them very well whether he intended to or not. In comparison Clinton is a model of virtue. Even though Sanders was leading in polls against Trump which should have suggested that Democrats support Sanders they still went to Clinton.

quizzical wrote:
 

just like the Liberals cleverness in marketing will eventually fail them.

So far it's been working for half a century and shows no sign of structural decline or loss of control. Sure some of goals have been thwarted, there are some cracks, but there is still no serious threat to neoliberalism or the ruling class and I don't mean politicians.

Sure eventually the Liberals will lose power, and it will flip back to the Conservatives, or an NDP in the service of neoliberalism. We may even get a new New Deal but ultimately it will be the same people in charge and it isn't the Liberals or the Conservatives. It is very much like a parent offering a child 2 or 3 options and letting them choose. The parent is still determining what the child gets to choose between. Our ruling class has done an excellent job at either infiltrating all political parties or manipulating them into limiting their opposition to neoliberalism.

The greatest threat now is that Trudeau will do enough to satisfy voters and it looks like he will have no trouble at all doing that and more. His father is the most popular PM of modern times and Justin may even surpass him. He can be beat, even in four years, but it can't be done by attacking Trudeau or with timid policies.

mark_alfred

Quote:
Again the NDP will take the approach of trying to demonize both the Liberals and Conservatives and again it won't work... With today's "left" the French Revolution would never have occurred... He can be beat, even in four years, but it can't be done by attacking Trudeau

Let them NDPers eat cake.

Pondering

mark_alfred wrote:

Quote:
Again the NDP will take the approach of trying to demonize both the Liberals and Conservatives and again it won't work... With today's "left" the French Revolution would never have occurred... He can be beat, even in four years, but it can't be done by attacking Trudeau

Let them NDPers eat cake.

The Liberals and the Conservatives are just the tools of the enemy not the enemy itself and the enemy has plenty of tools to replace the people in those parties including Trudeau and even to replace the parties themselves. They even have control over the NDP or are you going to argue that members still control the party and define it's policies? That doesn't make the NDP the enemy. 

During this past election cycle some NDP supporters went back to chanting Liberals Tories same ol story and tried to paint Trudeau as a spoiled elite. How did that work out for you? Mulcair tried to tar the Liberals and Conservatives with their history, didn't work did it. 

Sean was convinced that after the election people would notice that it is the upper middle class that benefited most from the increase in taxes on the 1% and that it would hurt Trudeau and the Liberals. Hasn't happened yet and I doubt it will. 

All the attacks on Trudeau are coming across as sour grapes not princiipled opposition and are generating support for Trudeau not harming him. The general public, non-partisans, like Trudeau and are delighted he has done so well on the world stage. They are happy we have a pretty first family. 

I said in a post a while back that voting for Trudeau as leader of the Liberal party strengthened my support because I felt empowered even though intellectually I knew I wasn't really. Having "chosen" him left me with a sense of being committed to supporting the party because I participated in the choice of leader. I could have been turned if the NDP had given me reason, for example if it had been the NDP standing up for legalization instead of Trudeau I would have gone NDP in a heartbeat. 

When you attack Trudeau based on issues that are inconsequencial to most people you inspire them to defend him because he's popular. Every time they defend him it strenthens his support and lowers opinion of the NDP. It doesn't matter if you are right or wrong. That's the outcome. No I didn't take a poll. It's just basic logic. 

Petty Conservative attacks on Trudeau aren't intended to convert people they are intended to shore up their base. The NDP doesn't have a big base to shore up and the base that they do have aren't falling for Trudeau's charm. The NDP deserters that voted Liberal, and would do so in even larger numbers now, are moderates. Over-the-top attacks on Trudeau just turn them off the NDP as they see the NDP's actions as purely partisan. The NDP gone quiet since REB was hurt and I hope that means they are rethinking their strategy for regaining support or better yet that there is some sort of mutiny against the executive.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

So what is this thread about. Apparently not about the incident in parliament where Justin attacked the Tory whip after crossing the floor into the opposition side.

Maybe Pondering you could start one thread to give the same old, same old tripe about other peoples parties that you serve up regularly. Have you got an algorythm going to produce this drivel or what?

Pondering

kropotkin1951 wrote:

So what is this thread about. Apparently not about the incident in parliament where Justin attacked the Tory whip after crossing the floor into the opposition side.

Maybe Pondering you could start one thread to give the same old, same old tripe about other peoples parties that you serve up regularly. Have you got an algorythm going to produce this drivel or what?

Do you even care if neoliberalism is defeated? 

The REB incident harmed the NDP and it is part of a pattern not an isolated incident. It seems to me your priority is the NDP not social justice. 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Pondering wrote:

Do you even care if neoliberalism is defeated? 

The REB incident harmed the NDP and it is part of a pattern not an isolated incident. It seems to me your priority is the NDP not social justice. 

Actually the reason why your posts irritate me so much is because I don't believe for a minute you care about neo-liberalism or you wouldn't be such a servile supporter of Justin, the new water boy for our elite. As for the NDP it is apparent that it is you whose priority is the NDP. Since you don't want them to succeed you diss them over and over to help the Liberal neo-cons.

But the really sad part of your posts is they say the same thing every time over and over and over again. You are a one trick pony.

 

Pondering

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Pondering wrote:

Do you even care if neoliberalism is defeated? 

The REB incident harmed the NDP and it is part of a pattern not an isolated incident. It seems to me your priority is the NDP not social justice. 

Actually the reason why your posts irritate me so much is because I don't believe for a minute you care about neo-liberalism or you wouldn't be such a servile supporter of Justin, the new water boy for our elite. As for the NDP it is apparent that it is you whose priority is the NDP. Since you don't want them to succeed you diss them over and over to help the Liberal neo-cons.

But the really sad part of your posts is they say the same thing every time over and over and over again. You are a one trick pony.

You're just too prejudice to read what I say. I am discussing political tactics not expressing support for Trudeau. I don't think it's a good thing that he can generate such enthusiastic support with so little effort. Not liking it does absolutely nothing to change the situation.

I have never defended the Liberals unprogressive or neoliberal choices as being morally right. I want to talk about defeating neoliberalism you want to talk about how bad the Liberals are because you would rather have the NDP signing the trade deals. Surely you are not naive enough to believe that in the end Mulcair wouldn't have signed it if the US did.

Trudeau's TACTIC of biding his time with the consultative process is going to work. I don't want it to work but it is magical thinking to believe current tactics can stop him. If the US doesn't ratify it Trudeau will have lost nothing and he will have gained respect for consulting. If the US does sign it he can say we can't afford to be shut out of a deal that represents 40% of world trade and he will be right. The US is Canada's biggest trade partner by far. If other countries can sell to the US tariff free and Canada can't it will be devastating for the Canadian economy.It is the exact same argument Mulcair would have used to sign TPP.

The NDP wanted to obsess about REB and elbowgate so that is what you defend and priorize. You walk into Liberal traps over and over and over again. If the NDP were determined to lose as much support as possible they couldn't do a better job of it than they have.

Basement Dweller

Pondering wrote:

The NDP wanted to obsess about REB and elbowgate so that is what you defend and priorize. You walk into Liberal traps over and over and over again. If the NDP were determined to lose as much support as possible they couldn't do a better job of it than they have.

You brought this thread back to life after almost a month. Everyone else had moved on.

quizzical

maybe it's a deflection from something else?

like Sophie's gold brocade dress and her and Justin still playing the royal couple. or Sophie getting a wage so she can buy gold brocade dresses?

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Basement Dweller wrote:

You brought this thread back to life after almost a month. Everyone else had moved on.

That was my thought as well. Especially given that her post was nothing she hasn't said over and over and over again in other threads. 

Pondering

Basement Dweller wrote:

Pondering wrote:

The NDP wanted to obsess about REB and elbowgate so that is what you defend and priorize. You walk into Liberal traps over and over and over again. If the NDP were determined to lose as much support as possible they couldn't do a better job of it than they have.

You brought this thread back to life after almost a month. Everyone else had moved on.

I've been very busy so I am spending much less time here. I just have a few days off because family is visiting the person I have been helping. I saw comments that had been directed at me so responded.

This is a discussion board, I am talking about a political event that is an example of current NDP approach to trying to take down Trudeau that is pitifully ineffective.

quizzical wrote:

maybe it's a deflection from something else?

like Sophie's gold brocade dress and her and Justin still playing the royal couple. or Sophie getting a wage so she can buy gold brocade dresses?

If I were a Liberal supporter why would I want to deflect from that? People are eating it up. Designers are delighted. Lifestyle talk show people are delighted. Entertainment Tonight is delighted.  Trevor Noah thought it was adorably sweet that Trudeau apologized so much. The NDP was mocked for acting like it was brawl and that Trudeau had physically attacked someone. If anything it burnished Trudeau's reputation as a modern-day gentleman even though he was in the wrong. With enemies like the NDP Trudeau doesn't need any friends.

swallow swallow's picture

Maybe. But the NDP stopped talking about this some time ago. 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

swallow wrote:

Maybe. But the NDP stopped talking about this some time ago. 

Reviving it means it to goes into the rabble feed and is kept on the radar. Of course Pondering only has the best interests of the NDP and progressive politics in mind. She is definitely not just trying to advance the Liberal brand.

 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

I remain suprised that they didn't settle this by way of "Family Rules".

She gets to punch him back, as hard as she wants, and then nobody tells Mom.

quizzical

Pondering wrote:
If I were a Liberal supporter why would I want to deflect from that? People are eating it up. Designers are delighted. Lifestyle talk show people are delighted. Entertainment Tonight is delighted.  Trevor Noah thought it was adorably sweet that Trudeau apologized so much.

how many Canadians buy designer clothes? lmaoooooooooooooooooo

you're really using ET as an example saying we too should be delighted? who watches it?

took me a minute or 10 to figure out who Trevor Noah is. my daughter has no idea. my mom knew right away. i see he appeals to the 55+ demographic.

 

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