Justin Trudeau = Harper with a smile

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Sean in Ottawa

Brachina wrote:

http://warrenkinsella.com/2013/04/the-jt-spot-open-thread/

 

 So Justin has released his own ads. Call me underwhelmed. It's all pladitudes and does nothing to dispell the fears he's lacking in substance.

I disagree with this comment.

One problem with ads is that many people try to do too much in a single ad. The Conservatives have money and are releasing ads. The Trudeau ad targets that nastiness directly and effectively. The ad has a simple message which is that Canadians deserve better than the Conservative attack machine, that he wants to go positive, that he is not ashamed of his background. The ad is well done and I think it will be received well by those who are undecided or considering voting for him which are really the only people who matter.

Trudeau has a number of other problems including lack of many policy positions, a background that is weak, a very poor speaking delivery and an impression that he is younger and less prepared than he should be. The Liberals will, no doubt, attempt to address these and those attempts may or may not work. However, this ad response to Conservative attacks is exactly what it should be.

From this, either from experience or better people, the Liberals already are doing better than they did last time.

For the NDP, Trudeau must be taken seriously and countered appropriately. Assuming there is no problem and that this ad is not any good is self-serving in the short term and a wrong-headed strategy in the long term. The Liberals may not have our respect or support but they must have our understanding that they can be a potent threat and at times they can do things right. This might be a time when they have better quality decisions.

The NDP for its part will need to focus on:

1) making Mulcair connect on a personal level more than he has so far. Running his own ads might be a good idea now.

2) presenting more clear and understandable policy positions that are not controversial among the NDP potential supporters

3) Presenting a case that the NDP, not the Conservatives, should be trusted with the economy (addressing both fairness and management themes)

4) Presenting a case on ethics in power that does not sound like it is whining but plays up the perception that the NDP is the cleanest

5) Presents a strong team, showing that the NDP has a cabinet team.

6) Presenting the argument that we need substance and clear changes of direction that the Liberals will not bring

7) Presenting the contrast of substance and experience the NDP offers over the Liberals who represent a nostalgic experiment that is dangerous at the present time as it could set the ocuntry back.

8) Present the youth of the NDP as an asset in a team of experience-- play up Ashton and others who can respond to the Trudeau appeal to youth with more substance, but also more relevance, sincerity and reason to support the NDP -- to this end I would suggest that a series of ads include both Mulcair and one other person for each ad -- this will emphasize the team, the fact that Mulcair works well with others and that the NDP has a strong bench.

9) Be cautious of negative campaigning. I think this will have to happen but it must be as removed from Mulcair's direct involvement as possible. Other NDP MPs should make the negative comments that will need to be made. Positive messages must predominate and negativity must be surgical and not colouring the tone of the campaign. Subtlety playing to NDP strengths and other's weaknesses is important but there needs to be a response team for direct responses.

10) Issues like the economy, jobs, the environment, health care, must be owned by the NDP and the issue of public safety must be redefined to NDP strength (an ad can be released showing the Conservatives as oblivious and paranoid: oblivious to the real threats such as food safety, worker safety, violence against women, threats to healthcare and pensions; paranoid about a crime rate that is actually falling, overseas conflicts, requests for openness,  and a tendency to violate public privacy and human rights. The NDP will need to take initiatives to establish its leadership on these issues.

All this must be done with the utmost respect for the ability of the Liberals to put on  a lot of promotional skill.

The next election is between the NDP and the Liberals and the NDP needs to respect that reality fully. A clear win for the NDP will mean government, a loss will elect the Liberals and a draw will elect the Conservatives. People need to stop seeing things in such a partisan way that they lose sight of the challenges before us and neglect to deploy the considerable assets the NDP has.

The NDP can win the next election but it will only do that by seeing realistically what the others are doing and respecting opponents while responding appropriately. My guess is the Liberals will put on a better showing in terms of campaign skills than they have in a long time. If the NDP wants the Liberal slide to continue so that the NDP can take power, then it will have to do better than that. It can be done -- but it will not be automatic. Smug dismissals of Liberal initiatives will not serve us well. (By this I do not mean any criticism of previous posts in this or other threads but a acknowledgement of the risk that a party with double the seats of its competitor could be tempted.)

We can also recognize that TRudeau is not Harper with a smile-- he has a different constituency and for all his faults he is nothing like Harper. While I think that Trudeau would be bad for Canada and will not stand up for Canadians where they need it,we need to also recognize the differences. Some of those differences must lead to approaches in countering Trudeau that are quite different from how we would respond to Harper. Know your opposition and don't fall into traps of thinking they are all the same. If the population can see the difference between Harper and Trudeau and we pretend there is not one, we will be regarded as foolish, simplistic, untrustworthy, blindly partisan and irrelevant. The NDP needs to be able to turn to each party and respond in an appropriate and customized way.

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

One problem with ads is that many people try to do too much in a single ad. The Conservatives have money and are releasing ads. The Trudeau ad targets that nastiness directly and effectively. The ad has a simple message which is that Canadians deserve better than the Conservative attack machine, that he wants to go positive, that he is not ashamed of his background. The ad is well done and I think it will be received well by those who are undecided or considering voting for him which are really the only people who matter.

...

We can also recognize that TRudeau is not Harper with a smile-- he has a different constituency and for all his faults he is nothing like Harper. While I think that Trudeau would be bad for Canada and will not stand up for Canadians where they need it,we need to also recognize the differences. Some of those differences must lead to approaches in countering Trudeau that are quite different from how we would respond to Harper. Know your opposition and don't fall into traps of thinking they are all the same. If the population can see the difference between Harper and Trudeau and we pretend there is not one, we will be regarded as foolish, simplistic, untrustworthy, blindly partisan and irrelevant. The NDP needs to be able to turn to each party and respond in an appropriate and customized way.

Well said Sean.

josh

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Warren Kinsella has now become a favoured political guru amongst NDP partisans, who would have thunk it. His dislike of Trudeau is of course brilliant analysis not just a continuation of his hate on for the Martin wing of the party. He was sage enough to support Ignatieff as the saviour of the party in the lead up to the last election so we should all pay attention to his views.

Laughing

 

janfromthebruce

Just a position of Mulcair's ad introduction vs. Trudeau Jr. ad

Lets contrast ads: @ThomasMulcair intro ad - http://tiny.cc/pax1vw  J Trudeau intro ad - http://tiny.cc/hbx1vw  Clear #NDP knockout #cdnpoli

Brachina

In Justin's ad he says he's not just a Leader, he's a servant. Sadly it appears he's Steven's servant. Oh and the Mulcair ad link doesn't work Jan.

Stockholm

josh wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Warren Kinsella has now become a favoured political guru amongst NDP partisans, who would have thunk it. His dislike of Trudeau is of course brilliant analysis not just a continuation of his hate on for the Martin wing of the party. He was sage enough to support Ignatieff as the saviour of the party in the lead up to the last election so we should all pay attention to his views.

Laughing

 

Kinsella likes Liberals who hire him and hates Liberals who don't hire him. Its as simple as that. I happen to agree with his knocks at Justin...but i also remember how he was sucking up to Trudeau like crazy six months ago...until he was told his services were not required. Similarly, Kinsella was vicious towards Andrea Horwath and the ONDP in 2011 when he was working for McGuinty, then he backed Sandra Puputello for the OLP leadership, she lost - now Kinsella trashes Kathleen Wynne regularly and has started saying nice things about Horwath...he is also suddenly all but endorsing Olivia Chow for mayor of Toronto!

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Your link didn't work for me Jan. So here is one that does.  I note that he highlights his Cabinet post in the LPQ in his intro ad. Strange how some people think that when I mention his Cabinet history it is just an over the top insult of him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Oq8mkENtdck

Brachina

I disagree on the issue of the ads Sean. People already dislike the Harper's ads, that's not new, so this ad gains nothing they don't already have. What the ad doesn't do is address the concern that Justin is style with no substance.

I do agree that the NDP should release ads as well, one that reminds Canadians of Mulcair's achievements and contrasts wiyh Justin while showing Mulcair's charming side.

mark_alfred

For now the NDP should just continue effectively battling this government while the Libs and Cons make stupid ads about one another.  In two years, Trudeau will be Canada's version of Sarah Palin, and Harper will be slipping in popularity as his vacuous government fails to inspire.  People then will look for actual competent change.

socialdemocrati...

Justin's ad is successful if only for one reason: it keeps him in the news, and keeps a steady battle between the Conservatives and Liberals in the media. He's now Harper's worst enemy. If you hate Harper, you must be a fan of...

Who's the official opposition again?

I also think most people who want to replace Harper barely care about substance. The less substance from Trudeau the better, lest he accidentally agrees with the NDP, or end up defending the Conservative agenda. Trudeau's team does well the longer they can keep him in a bubble, and make the conversation about anything but policy.

janfromthebruce

Brachina wrote:
In Justin's ad he says he's not just a Leader, he's a servant. Sadly it appears he's Steven's servant. Oh and the Mulcair ad link doesn't work Jan.

here it is: NDP TV ad - A leader

 

jjuares

I agree with much of what sean wrote. The Conservative support is sliding away. The 30% will almost certainly stay with them no matter what happens and there is no more votes coming anybody's way. So the main question is who will gain the major share of the anti-harper vote and who can mobilize those who don't vote. The Liberal support for the anti-rights bill and the almost total lack of criticism of their position tells me that the NDP has to respond to the Liberals. I believe Mulcair has to stake out some positions the Liberals just can't copy and make sure the NDP is a distinctive brand.

Hunky_Monkey

As soon as I saw this ad, it reminded me so much of a Michael Dukakis ad in 1988.  It was in response to negative attack ads from Bush Sr.  He actually turned off a TV with a Bush ad playing and then complained how nasty the campaign was.  I guess I wasn't the only one who picked up on that.

So I guess Trudeau is taking notes from the very successful Dukakis campaign Laughing

 

http://www.livingroomcandidate.org/commercials/1988/counterpunch

jjuares

Hunky_Monkey wrote:

As soon as I saw this ad, it reminded me so much of a Michael Dukakis ad in 1988.  It was in response to negative attack ads from Bush Sr.  He actually turned off a TV with a Bush ad playing and then complained how nasty the campaign was.  I guess I wasn't the only one who picked up on that.

So I guess Trudeau is taking notes from the very successful Dukakis campaign Laughing

 

http://www.livingroomcandidate.org/commercials/1988/counterpunch

This is funny. I will use this.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

janfromthebruce wrote:

Brachina wrote:

In Justin's ad he says he's not just a Leader, he's a servant. Sadly it appears he's Steven's servant. Oh and the Mulcair ad link doesn't work Jan.

here it is: NDP TV ad - A leader

Actually that is a link to a debate in the House and unfortunately there is no simultaneous translation so I can't understand most of it.  In fact it doesn't look like an ad at all.

The link I posted was too the first ad produces in English after Mulcair was elected.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

dp

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Here is the link again. In the ad Tom is proud of his past as a Cabinet Minister and it is why I will never trust him to be anything more than a left liberal at best.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Oq8mkENtdck

socialdemocrati...

Why shouldn't he be proud of his history as a cabinet minister? It's because of people like him that Quebec has the right to a clean environment in their charter. The rest of Canada doesn't.

But hey, go ahead and play the guilt by association game. I'm sure you'll want to give Mulcair responsibility for a million things Charest did, even after Mulcair resigned over Charest's privatization scheme. He must have secretly agreed with it, or else why would he resign and infiltrate the highly dominant Federal NPD Quebec?

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

He sat as a Liberal Cabinet Minister that is my point. He may have resigned on principle just before the government had to face the people but he didn't resign when his government was slashing services and yes I judge him by that fact. It may mean nothing to you put it speaks to me about political judgement. I only see a very smooth professional politician with a checkered past and I am entitled to that opinion. No previous leader of the NDP has ever sat as a Liberal Cabinet Minister although turncoats like Rae and Dosanjh went the other way.

Brachina

The biggest distinction between a Liberal Party led by me and Stephen Harper’s Conservatives is one of tone …” Justin Trudeau (Toronto Star print edition, April 6, 2013)

http://buckdogpolitics.blogspot.ca/2013/04/liberal-tory-same-old-story-a...

"It appears the Justin Trudeau himself agrees with the premise of this thread, much to my surprise he admitted it.

Its like he wants to write the NDP attack ads himself.

This takes the cake, any progressive that supports Justin has no self respect and doesn't deserve to call themselves one.

CanadaOrangeCat

I have been lurking here for a while so I thought I would contribute some content.

Canada certainly does not need two social democratic parties. Ironically enough, Trudeau seems to be interested in real liberal policy for a party by that name. Many Liberals have considered themselves to be social democrats, but I am guessing Chretien, Martin, and definitely Ignatieff have pushed a lot of them into the NDP. if Trudeau goes with Harper, he will be carrying on in Liberal tradition. 

I don't see Trudeau as much of a threat to the NDP. In my home country of Quebec, I think Trudeau may consolidate some of the right-of-centre federalist and soft-nationalist vote. I suspect he will do very well on the hard right votes in Quebec. Nonetheless, there could be a positive Marois effect for the nationalist side, and one would have to analyze how that might break down away from the Liberals and the NPD. If the conversation shifts to Liberals vs. Nationalists, that is grim news for the NPD. For now, I think Harper is gone from Quebec. The problem is, it doesn't matter because there are now more new seats west of the Ottawa river with redistribution than Harper could lose in Quebec. I think, the biggest threat to the NPD is the Bloc.

As for the rest of the Canadian Economic Union, by 2015 Harper will have been in power for 9 years. This is the biggest opportunity for someone who would replace him. People are just going to be tired of him. And when you are an ideologue in power for that long, your actions start affecting more and more people personally every year. Word of this spreads, and more and more people turn against you.

The electoral map will change materially in the next election if there are big moves in the political right, not the left. This gives the NDP an advantage, as they have a clear run to go over the top by doing more of what they did before. What happens if a chunk of the right wing in the West goes NDP to spite both Harper and Trudeau? They could.

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Trudeau is in favour of most traditional Liberal policies. He is for all free trade deals and that has been the party tradition long before the Conservatives drank the koolaid under Mulroney.  Reciprocity is a good thing to remember and that it was not the Canadian Liberal's who ripped it up but the Americans. They have always been the party of greater intercontinental ties with our Southern neighbours.  Trudeau's advisers must also get the fact that over the last few election cycles they have lost far more voters to the Conservatives than to the NDP.  They need to shore up their right wing and win back voters who are getting tired of the Harper tyranny.  I think that the Cons are actually going to help them if they keep being petty and arrogant.  Those are the traits that the Liberals displayed and it drove all those blue Liberals to them in the first place. 

They will as always do a few somewhat progressive things and then run on a progressive individual rights platform but only after they have assured the right wing voters they can be trusted not to be too left wing.

mark_alfred

CanadaOrangeCat wrote:

The electoral map will change materially in the next election if there are big moves in the political right, not the left. This gives the NDP an advantage, as they have a clear run to go over the top by doing more of what they did before. What happens if a chunk of the right wing in the West goes NDP to spite both Harper and Trudeau? They could.

That would be interesting.

mark_alfred

kropotkin1951 wrote:

They [Liberal Party] will as always do a few somewhat progressive things and then run on a progressive individual rights platform but only after they have assured the right wing voters they can be trusted not to be too left wing.

I agree.

 

jjuares

One of the big advantage Trudeau has right now is Sun News and the Conservatives. Their relentless attacks on Trudeau give him credibility as a progressive. A credibility he does not deserve but credibility nonetheless. He mutters something rather incoherently about root causes and the right wing goes ape. Somehow the NDP must interject in this conversation. The truth of the matter is that the NDP is doing well in the house but the Liberals are doing well everywhere else. The performance in the house you used to give you credibility with the media and that translated into coverage. I am not sure that old paragdim works anymore.

mark_alfred

jjuares wrote:

The truth of the matter is that the NDP is doing well in the house but the Liberals are doing well everywhere else. The performance in the house you used to give you credibility with the media and that translated into coverage. I am not sure that old paragdim works anymore.

When Trudeau's debut as leader in the House occurred, I was annoyed that the news story was about the Con's attack ads rather than the story of contrasting Mulcair's strong appearance with Trudeau's relatively weak appearance in the House.

socialdemocrati...

jjuares wrote:

One of the big advantage Trudeau has right now is Sun News and the Conservatives. Their relentless attacks on Trudeau give him credibility as a progressive. A credibility he does not deserve but credibility nonetheless. He mutters something rather incoherently about root causes and the right wing goes ape. Somehow the NDP must interject in this conversation. The truth of the matter is that the NDP is doing well in the house but the Liberals are doing well everywhere else. The performance in the house you used to give you credibility with the media and that translated into coverage. I am not sure that old paragdim works anymore.

I agree. With all the attacks on Trudeau this week, he's become the de facto opposition to Harper. People are supporting Trudeau just out of disdain for the Conservatives and their attacks.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

jjuares wrote:

The performance in the house you used to give you credibility with the media and that translated into coverage. I am not sure that old paragdim works anymore.

The MSM has never given anything to the NDP. 

Jacob Two-Two

Calm down people. It's over two years until the election. It hasn't even been two weeks since Justin became leader.

The Cons took their obligatory shot and the Libs decided to try not being useless for a change and actually responded. Obviously this becomes news, but they won't be trading ads every week, and meanwhile the NDP is performing very well in the house. No doubt they will continue to. The media will do their best to ignore it, as they always do, but as it becomes embarrassingly obvious they'll have to grudgingly admit it, as they've had to many times in the recent past. The NDP out performs the Liberals over and over, and will have much more opportunity to do so, being the OO.

I'm sure we'll have to sit through a lot more of this before it fizzles out, but eventually there's no hiding it. The Liberals aren't an opposition because they don't oppose. They didn't in the minority government and nothing's changed under Justin. Meanwhile the NDP will be opposing the government and fighting for the right causes, and doing so forcefully and competently (I loved that bit about Peter MacKay getting all flustered).

We know the party will never get a fair shake in the media, but the truth will out in the end.

nicky

I find it amusing that JT's commercial presents him in a classroom  sitting beside a lengthy calculus equation on a blackboard.

I would like to see Justin try to solve it.

 

CanadaOrangeCat

They were polynomials, which is not quite calculus, but probably well past the point where non-math people give up on math. According to an intrepid team of mathematicians, Trudeau got 3/4 correct, or 75%. Perhaps as a drama teacher, he is much better qualified to be a politician than if he were a mathematician. 

janfromthebruce

jjuares wrote:

One of the big advantage Trudeau has right now is Sun News and the Conservatives. Their relentless attacks on Trudeau give him credibility as a progressive. A credibility he does not deserve but credibility nonetheless. He mutters something rather incoherently about root causes and the right wing goes ape. Somehow the NDP must interject in this conversation. The truth of the matter is that the NDP is doing well in the house but the Liberals are doing well everywhere else. The performance in the house you used to give you credibility with the media and that translated into coverage. I am not sure that old paragdim works anymore.

And that is because they are not really covering the house. As read, Trudeau never even bothered to show up for his motion to allow more individual MPs to speak about issues they what to bring up in the house. As a lib stated, we knew it wouldn't pass so why bother? Trudeau gets more coverage and better one may add, outside of the House. He completely lacks credability inside. That will change eventually, as when you don't show up you don't get elected.

I think that at this point it's a turn around loop. At some point the wee emporer will look like he has no clothes on. And Trudeau is the one who is saying legislature business is irrelevant. He and the lib spinners need you to believe that.

As I see here with the "old paradegm" suggestion is that it is working.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Yup that's the way to go after Trudeau. with Conservative lies as talking points.  He spent more time as a math teacher than he did as a drama teacher but don't let the facts get in the way of a good lie.  The other good way for partisan NDP'ers to counter act Trudeau's charm is to be more arrogant in their put downs than the Liberals themselves.  Good strategy, be as nasty and disingenuous as the Conservatives and as arrogant as the Liberals.  Guaranteed to get the voters rushing to your party.

Maybe someone can tell me how many people with teaching experience there are in the NDP caucus. Didn't Tom teach part time for a couple of years before he became a full time politician.

clambake

I think the NDP could frame the discussion and disctinction between the parties as them vs. the 2 "Big Oil" parties.

clambake

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Brachina wrote:

http://warrenkinsella.com/2013/04/the-jt-spot-open-thread/

 

 So Justin has released his own ads. Call me underwhelmed. It's all pladitudes and does nothing to dispell the fears he's lacking in substance.

1) making Mulcair connect on a personal level more than he has so far. Running his own ads might be a good idea now.

2) presenting more clear and understandable policy positions that are not controversial among the NDP potential supporters

3) Presenting a case that the NDP, not the Conservatives, should be trusted with the economy (addressing both fairness and management themes)

4) Presenting a case on ethics in power that does not sound like it is whining but plays up the perception that the NDP is the cleanest

5) Presents a strong team, showing that the NDP has a cabinet team.

6) Presenting the argument that we need substance and clear changes of direction that the Liberals will not bring

7) Presenting the contrast of substance and experience the NDP offers over the Liberals who represent a nostalgic experiment that is dangerous at the present time as it could set the ocuntry back.

8) Present the youth of the NDP as an asset in a team of experience-- play up Ashton and others who can respond to the Trudeau appeal to youth with more substance, but also more relevance, sincerity and reason to support the NDP -- to this end I would suggest that a series of ads include both Mulcair and one other person for each ad -- this will emphasize the team, the fact that Mulcair works well with others and that the NDP has a strong bench.

9) Be cautious of negative campaigning. I think this will have to happen but it must be as removed from Mulcair's direct involvement as possible. Other NDP MPs should make the negative comments that will need to be made. Positive messages must predominate and negativity must be surgical and not colouring the tone of the campaign. Subtlety playing to NDP strengths and other's weaknesses is important but there needs to be a response team for direct responses.

10) Issues like the economy, jobs, the environment, health care, must be owned by the NDP and the issue of public safety must be redefined to NDP strength (an ad can be released showing the Conservatives as oblivious and paranoid: oblivious to the real threats such as food safety, worker safety, violence against women, threats to healthcare and pensions; paranoid about a crime rate that is actually falling, overseas conflicts, requests for openness,  and a tendency to violate public privacy and human rights. The NDP will need to take initiatives to establish its leadership on these issues.

All this must be done with the utmost respect for the ability of the Liberals to put on  a lot of promotional skill.

The next election is between the NDP and the Liberals and the NDP needs to respect that reality fully. A clear win for the NDP will mean government, a loss will elect the Liberals and a draw will elect the Conservatives. People need to stop seeing things in such a partisan way that they lose sight of the challenges before us and neglect to deploy the considerable assets the NDP has.

Great post and ideas. You really need to be on the campaign team :)

flymeetointment

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Yup that's the way to go after Trudeau. with Conservative lies as talking points.  He spent more time as a math teacher than he did as a drama teacher but don't let the facts get in the way of a good lie.  The other good way for partisan NDP'ers to counter act Trudeau's charm is to be more arrogant in their put downs than the Liberals themselves.  Good strategy, be as nasty and disingenuous as the Conservatives and as arrogant as the Liberals.  Guaranteed to get the voters rushing to your party.

Maybe someone can tell me how many people with teaching experience there are in the NDP caucus. Didn't Tom teach part time for a couple of years before he became a full time politician.

You're right, Trudeau is more formidable than the NDP have acknowledged. Truth is I think most people are scared shitless, the NDP are within a hairs breadth of power and then along comes the son of the most popular PM in modern history. There are reams of seniors who will vote for Trudeau. Plus he is young, good looking and can body double for Jack freaking Sparrow. There goes a large chunk of young voters. I can definitely see the PMO slipping away from the NDP, as many/most? voters are NOT politically aware and when you put Jack Sparrow up against the rough bearded standoffish dude from the NDP, well let's just say we better take this seriously, even though we know Justin is a political lightweight, he may still win at the polls.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Except for Irving Oil of course. The NDP likes them and wants them to get new pipelines caring filthy bitumen across the country over areas that look a lot like Kalamazoo. In BC we are fighting Enbridge while the federal NDP want to see them prosper. So much for not being a party of big oil.

Quote:

In a move that could cost him significant political support, federal NDP leader Thomas Mulcair has endorsed controversial west-to-east pipeline proposals that would move tar sands crude from Alberta through Ontario and Quebec to Atlantic Canada and points beyond. During a Sept. 28, 2012 speech to the Canadian Club of Toronto, Mulcair said, “Let me be clear, New Democrats support recent proposals to increase West-East pipeline capacity. This is an initiative, led by industry,  that will pay economic dividends for every region of our country: new markets for [tar sands] producers in the West, high-paying value-added jobs and lower energy prices in the East.”

Mulcair called this a “pro-business common sense solution.”

With a bottleneck of crude at the storage hub in Cushing, Oklahoma; pricing discounts for diluted bitumen (dilbit) at US Midwest refineries; and strong opposition to tar sands export pipelines in both BC and the US, the industry has seized upon “eastern access” to Atlantic tidewater as a solution. Canada’s top two pipeline/utilities companies – Enbridge and TransCanada Corp. – are each developing plans to pipe crude east, while environmental groups across Ontario, Quebec and New England have been gearing up for a major fight on the issue.

The “Wrong Product”

Ironically, only hours before Mulcair’s speech, Alberta Federation of Labour president Gil McGowan issued a press release (Sept. 27) stating:  “The bottom line is Alberta is selling the wrong product [dilbit]. The glut of bitumen on the market is a result of bitumen looking for appropriate refineries. If the product was SCO [synthetic crude oil], we could be selling the product to any refinery in North America.” As well, many pipeline safety issues could be avoided (see March-April 2012 Watershed Sentinel).

http://www.watershedsentinel.ca/content/line-9-shipping-tar-sands-crude-...

http://www.news919.com/2012/04/16/ndp-leader-backs-pipeline-east-for-alb...

Brachina

No one is putting teachers down Korpto, but hey keep defending your buddy Justin while attacking the NDP for being too rightwing. Your another Thom Walkon, who pushes for the Libs while attacking the NDP for not being leftwing enough.

Socialist Feminist
kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

I am now a Liberal supporter.  Your partisan absurdity knows no bounds. By the way who the fuck is Thom Walkon. I've never heard of him. You probably mean a columnist for one of Toronto's three daily newspapers. Like most BC'ers who are not recent immigrants from the Centre of the Universe I never pay any attention to those rags. You should really wean yourself off that poisonous stuff. 

If you have read my posts you would know that I have not stated anywhere that I think Trudeau is a good leader or would make a good PM.  I just think that over top nasty back biting about him will in fact be counter productive to the federal NDP, especially when they are based on Conservative lies and talking points.  You and your allies in the Conservative war room are turning Trudeau into an underdog and Canadians generally like underdogs.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Well, I have been quiet long enough. No one turns anyone into anything K; if  that is how you feel, own it.

As for everyone else here, my opinion is we need to dial it back. The nice thing is that despite the passion here, the NDP leadership seems not ready to rise to the bait. In that light k, if anyone is making Trudeau "an underdog", it doesn"t appear to be the national leadership.

If the kid wins it won`t be beacuse the NDP made him anything.

flymeetointment

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I am now a Liberal supporter.  Your partisan absurdity knows no bounds. By the way who the fuck is Thom Walkon. I've never heard of him. You probably mean a columnist for one of Toronto's three daily newspapers. Like most BC'ers who are not recent immigrants from the Centre of the Universe I never pay any attention to those rags. You should really wean yourself off that poisonous stuff. 

If you have read my posts you would know that I have not stated anywhere that I think Trudeau is a good leader or would make a good PM.  I just think that over top nasty back biting about him will in fact be counter productive to the federal NDP, especially when they are based on Conservative lies and talking points.  You and your allies in the Conservative war room are turning Trudeau into an underdog and Canadians generally like underdogs.

That "western alienation" BS is getting tiresome. Who cares if you're from BC. Toronto, like it or not, IS the center of canada, physically, finacially, and culturally. That is only a fact. Do you hate facts? Support the Liberals. support thr NDP, you can rest assured smarter people than you are aware of the problems at hand.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

flymeetointment wrote:

Toronto, like it or not, IS the center of canada, physically, finacially, and culturally. That is only a fact. Do you hate facts? Support the Liberals. support thr NDP, you can rest assured smarter people than you are aware of the problems at hand.

Sorry sir please forgive me since I am only a stupid idiot living on the Salish Sea  Maybe I should just read more drivel from the Toronto newspapers so I can get properly indoctrinated into the real Canadian culture.

I will defer to my betters in another fucking life if you don't mind.

flymeetointment

Ohhh the Salish Sea. Sounds lyrical. I live in Cornwall. Who fucking cares. It makes no difference as to the REALITY. All newspapers can be said to be drivel, yet you focus on toronto, why? You have a hard on for TO.  You and thirteen other million "alienated"westerners.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

So tell me if Toronto, "IS the center of canada, physically, finacially, and culturally" what does that make Quebec? Are you sure you live in Cornwall and not Brockville?

flymeetointment

My point is who cares, I know BC'ers love to talk about how they live in Salish this or Salish that but who cares if you live on the deep blue pacific and you watch the fucking walruses in the morning. Most Canadians don't so shut the fuck up about your beautiful pacific heavan. And B you are correct quebec is also the center of canada, just not so much the center in 2013 as it was in 1956. The true center is TO.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

I see that you have not read babbles policy. 

By the way most people in BC do not share my disdain for Toronto.  They have never been there and don't have any urge to go. For them it is just totally irrelevant to their reality. I developed my disdain for Toronto centric arrogance growing up in a Northern Ontario mining town where we just called it Hogtown.

Have a nice day and try not to tell too many other people to "shut the fuck up" or you might become a one day wonder.

 

flymeetointment

There is arrogance enough to go around, about that much I can agree. I have no idea why you have a disdain for TO just as I have no idea why someone who lives in edmonston NB would have a disdain for TO. My point was simply the REALITY that TO is the center of canada. You and others can dispute that, argue that, but it doesn't change the motherfucking REALITY that TO is the center, in every way, of canada.

Oh and I didn't specifically tell you to STFU, I was more expressing central canadas frustration with BC'ers who think they live in a fuckin paradise and the need for them to shut the fuck up about that fact. We know, we 've seen/heard all about it. So I'm sorry if I hurt your western sensitivities but here on the east coast we say go fuck yourself.

Brachina

This really isn't a BC vs. TO thread.

This is a we hold Justin Trudeau in distain thread ;D

flymeetointment

Justin Trudeau is only the tip of the iceberg.West versus east is a real problem.

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