Justin Trudeau = Harper with a smile

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Hunky_Monkey

Federal Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau has praised Alberta Premier Alison Redford for her efforts to get the United States to approve the Keystone XL pipeline.

But Trudeau said Prime Minister Stephen Harper's government hasn't done enough to push the project.

"This (federal) government hasn't done a very good job of reassuring either Canadians or our trading partners that we are serious about managing environmental sustainability," Trudeau told reporters after shaking hands with commuters at a downtown subway station early Friday.

"This is the kind of thing we need strong leadership on, and I'm pleased to see Premier Redford taking such a strong and balanced position on that."

The $7-billion TransCanada (TSX:TRP) line would take oilsands crude from Alberta across the U.S. Midwest to coastal refineries in Texas. Labour and industry representatives say the line is crucial to secure a reliable source of oil.

U.S. President Barack Obama is expected to make a decision soon on the fate of the proposed project.

Redford has made numerous trips to Washington to remind decision makers of Keystone's economic benefits and to highlight Canada's environmental record. She has said Alberta charges heavy emitters $15 a tonne for greenhouse gas emissions over set limits and finances many green-energy projects. Critics, however, say the province isn't close to meeting its long-term greenhouse gas reduction targets.

The proposed line has faced sharp criticism from environmentalists in Canada and the United States. Protesters have gathered by the thousands in Washington to say pipelines in general are not safe for the environment, and Keystone should be the line in the sand if industry is to move away from such carbon-intensive operations as the oilsands.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/05/03/justin-trudeau-alison-redford-keystone_n_3209877.html

 

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Well, on Huff Post, I had a guy reply to my thread and he said in part, "...you would be wrong if you were to assume that the oil and gas industry wouldn't live with tougher regs or anything else. Sure, the less cost the better but also important is surety, that is knowing what the rules are." He went on to say that Trudeau would be able to "persuade" them to live with more regulation and what would essentially be less profit, so that there was a new regulatory regime. When I pressed him, he said he had friends high up in the oil industry who told him this would be the case. I am noticing that when you point out to people whom Trudeau is surronding himself with, they say it doens't mean anything. That Trudeau is a progressive and will do the right thing, and I am worrying about nothing and wrong. If anyone has an answer to this, I hope they let the national office know ASAP. As far as I am concerned, this is the real danger of a Trudeau candicy. Unless someone figures out how to call this out for what it is, this could be trouble. For all the griping that is expressed here almost hourly about all the problems with the NDP, I can't see Tom Mulcair playing patty-cakes with the oil industry. But I guess, if having a LPC government is better then having a guy who will stand up to Big Oil, lead the NDP, while the NDP wanders around irrelevant in third party rump party land mainly influencing nothing and getting the odd pitch over the plate, well, I frankly don't have a clue what to say to that. Hopefully Canadians will ingore that kind of sentiment and say voting for Tom Mulcair and the NDP is by far the best choice.

janfromthebruce

Hunky_Monkey wrote:

Federal Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau has praised Alberta Premier Alison Redford for her efforts to get the United States to approve the Keystone XL pipeline.

But Trudeau said Prime Minister Stephen Harper's government hasn't done enough to push the project.

"This (federal) government hasn't done a very good job of reassuring either Canadians or our trading partners that we are serious about managing environmental sustainability," Trudeau told reporters after shaking hands with commuters at a downtown subway station early Friday.

"This is the kind of thing we need strong leadership on, and I'm pleased to see Premier Redford taking such a strong and balanced position on that."

The $7-billion TransCanada (TSX:TRP) line would take oilsands crude from Alberta across the U.S. Midwest to coastal refineries in Texas. Labour and industry representatives say the line is crucial to secure a reliable source of oil.

U.S. President Barack Obama is expected to make a decision soon on the fate of the proposed project.

Redford has made numerous trips to Washington to remind decision makers of Keystone's economic benefits and to highlight Canada's environmental record. She has said Alberta charges heavy emitters $15 a tonne for greenhouse gas emissions over set limits and finances many green-energy projects. Critics, however, say the province isn't close to meeting its long-term greenhouse gas reduction targets.

The proposed line has faced sharp criticism from environmentalists in Canada and the United States. Protesters have gathered by the thousands in Washington to say pipelines in general are not safe for the environment, and Keystone should be the line in the sand if industry is to move away from such carbon-intensive operations as the oilsands.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/05/03/justin-trudeau-alison-redford-keystone_n_3209877.html

 

Sometimes when another person says something that is the perfect response, it requires a quote:

Karl Bélanger ‏@KarlBelanger 10h

Trudeau says Harper not doing enough for Keystone... Muzzling scientists, gutting enviro assesment process and tax breaks not enough?

Thus suggesting what more would Trudeau Liberal led govt do beyond this?

autoworker autoworker's picture

If Mulcair were to shave his whiskers, would his approval rating go up or down? Judging from the latest polls, he may want to try a new image. I once read somewhere that many women dislike beards: is that true?

janfromthebruce

autoworker wrote:
If Mulcair were to shave his whiskers, would his approval rating go up or down? Judging from the latest polls, he may want to try a new image. I once read somewhere that many women dislike beards: is that true?

oh please, and people had a problem with Jack's moustache - not.

autoworker autoworker's picture

janfromthebruce wrote:

autoworker wrote:
If Mulcair were to shave his whiskers, would his approval rating go up or down? Judging from the latest polls, he may want to try a new image. I once read somewhere that many women dislike beards: is that true?

oh please, and people had a problem with Jack's moustache - not.

Okay, he can leave the 'cookie-duster'.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

If Trudeau sounds like the leader of a neoconservative party that is proper and fairly truthful. If he tried to disguise his parties true colours by sounding like a leftie that would be disingenuous. He is fighting for the votes of the 65% to 75% of the voters who are not left wing.  Most people who vote Liberal understand that they are a party that spans from the center right to the center and that is part of their appeal and has been for decades. The Liberals lost voters for being corrupt not for being right wing.

Trudeau at this point is taking on the Conservatives on their turf and that should please NDP supporters not be a source of derision.

Roystonbones

[quote=autoworker

 I once read somewhere that many women dislike beards: is that true?

Only when the myth keeps being repeated and perpetuated. We should be moving the discourse to the issues and what the person stands for insead of what they look like.

 

autoworker autoworker's picture

I wish more people would look beneath the surface of politics, but it wouldn't be popular to suggest that their current perspective is superficial.

modernsteam

DaveW wrote:

one more time, you are focusing on details of policy since that is your thing;

if the broader voting public were as interested in policy, J.T. would not be running 1st in national polls ...

it's largely a personality and a tone, more optimistic and open after the dour Harper period

Dave, I don't know which side you're on, but the "tone" of your "tome" indicates a pro-Justin slant. As for "more optimistic", like a typical Canadian-style Liberal (maybe U.S.-style too), "optimistic" about what??? EMPTY, EMPTY HYPED-UP RHETORIC!!!

BTW, policy is my thing too. The purpose of political elections is deadly serious to me, and, I believe, to most folks on this forum  in this time of economic depression: that is the implementation of right and fair policies for the well-being of the Canadian people, and to put the Canadian people's physical welfare first above everything else, the dourness of Harper be damned! It seems to me that JT is pulling the old-fashioned Liberal tricks of trying to get the public  to not take politics seriously and to regard the Liberal Party as chiefly a fun place to be. The last thing we need is a party returning to governance in the same-ol'-same-ol' way, doing "interesting things", like the Sponsorship debacle, with the taxpayers' money, instead of what must be done.

As for the public, they had better get interested in policies in their own just interest, and ensconcing tax funds strictly, and I mean strictly, to those necessities: improved health care with reduced wait times, free or affordable post-secondary public education or training, jobs at decent wages again, forcing polluters to clean up their mess, esp. in the tar sands areas, encouraging worker-owned enterprise, publicly-run enterprise where this is a best practice solution, improved public transit, and controlled immigration for the purpose of helping the people of Canada through immigrants' contribution to our economy, and to fill up our empty spaces.

Political parties are not to be just "fun" places for the rank and file, pandering, as JT may wish to do, to the lowest a-political and childish level of human-kind, while he and his conniving bunch repair to the "back rooms" to plan policy crap to be "sold" to the public like car dealers sell unnecessary SUVs to the gullible. A political party, to me, is a place for the full democratic participation of its members, especially the rank and file of the membership, in the formation of serious policy to get us all out of the politico-economic quagmire the "industrialized" world has been in since the Wall-Street boys and their lackeys elsewhere in the world, screwed so much of it up with the "mortgage meltdown".

 

 

 

janfromthebruce

School division says it had no role in barring media from Trudeau event
Read more: http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/school-division-says-it-had-no-role-in-barring-media-from-trudeau-event-1.1266290#ixzz2SQEYFbHl

The Winnipeg School Division says it played no role in barring reporters from Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau's visit to a city high school.

Spokesman Dale Burgos says it was the principal at Sisler High School who enforced a media ban, because students had not signed waiver forms allowing them to be filmed.

Burgos says Trudeau's appearance on Thursday was never intended for the media and the principal was not aware ahead of time that reporters were planning to attend.

Media were told minutes before Trudeau's talk with students that word had come down from the school division and they had to leave.

Trudeau blamed "petty politics" for the decision.

Although other local politicians have spoken before students waivers were signed because the principal knew there would be media there.

Trudeau, in my view looked petty in his comment because he tried to smear a school and school authority without getting the facts. And I'm sure that the principal explained why the media could not be present, thus a missed opportunity to take the higher ground.

lagatta

There are times I wish I were still a mouthy kid. I could have talked circles around the upper-class twit from the age of 15 or so.

Jacob Two-Two

kropotkin1951 wrote:

If Trudeau sounds like the leader of a neoconservative party that is proper and fairly truthful. If he tried to disguise his parties true colours by sounding like a leftie that would be disingenuous. He is fighting for the votes of the 65% to 75% of the voters who are not left wing.  Most people who vote Liberal understand that they are a party that spans from the center right to the center and that is part of their appeal and has been for decades. The Liberals lost voters for being corrupt not for being right wing.

Trudeau at this point is taking on the Conservatives on their turf and that should please NDP supporters not be a source of derision.

Actually, this probably isn't true. If in fact Justin manages to pass himself off as a credible leader, he will almost certainly attract voters from the left as well as the right, regardless of his politics. There's too much desire to see Harper gone and votes will bleed wherever the opposition seems strongest. It's the same effect I'm counting on working for the NDP if Justin crashes. Sadly, despite how recent events have been discrediting the establishment, right-wing still gets confused with credible, so they are doing the smart thing here by tacking to the right.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

I think you are right that if he gets his right wing back and looks like he can defeat Harper he will also gain back his voters who drifted to the NDP.  That is why he is concentrating on the centre right voters who abandoned the Liberals first and foremost. Voters who went from the Liberals to the NDP are at this point the wild card.  I don't think there is enough room in the centre for two political parties so those liberal voters are the key to the NDP even holding its gains from the last election.  But if the NDP only runs on policies meant to appeal to those centrist liberal voters then what is the point.

autoworker autoworker's picture

If the Liberals can present a credible alternative under his leadership, and improve on their current popularity, then Justin will attract cabinet-quality candidates to run in the next election. Justin's strength may rest in his skill as a consensus builder, rather than the incumbent control freak. Imagine if cabinet ministers, and opposition critics actually ran their portfolios. I believe his success represents a desire to break from the current paradigm of leadership. Whatever one might think of him, he undeniably has the royal jelly that makes him, and his party, a serious contender for power.

lagatta

Royal jelly? Now that is truly vomit-worthy.

Off with their heads!

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ah_!_%C3%A7a_ira

http://www.paroles-musique.com/clip-Edith_Piaf-Ca_Ira-video,c42621 Piaf singing it. Les aristocrates, on les pendra!

Hamiltonian

Great article on Trudeau thanks to Accidental Deliberations blog: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/mobileweb/tom-kott/is-justin-trudeau-a-cons...

janfromthebruce

autoworker wrote:
If the Liberals can present a credible alternative under his leadership, and improve on their current popularity, then Justin will attract cabinet-quality candidates to run in the next election. Justin's strength may rest in his skill as a consensus builder, rather than the incumbent control freak. Imagine if cabinet ministers, and opposition critics actually ran their portfolios. I believe his success represents a desire to break from the current paradigm of leadership. Whatever one might think of him, he undeniably has the royal jelly that makes him, and his party, a serious contender for power.

Buzz is that you with renewed vision of a Senate seat dancing in your head?

janfromthebruce

yes "quality" candidates like his new team. Oh look here, we have Trudeau's new chief of staff Cyrus Reporter

Registration - Consultant BP Energy Canada / CYRUS REPORTER, Consultant

BP ENERGY CANADA
240-4TH AVENUE SW, PO BOX 200
CALGARY, ON  T2P 2H8
Canada 

autoworker autoworker's picture

janfromthebruce wrote:

autoworker wrote:
If the Liberals can present a credible alternative under his leadership, and improve on their current popularity, then Justin will attract cabinet-quality candidates to run in the next election. Justin's strength may rest in his skill as a consensus builder, rather than the incumbent control freak. Imagine if cabinet ministers, and opposition critics actually ran their portfolios. I believe his success represents a desire to break from the current paradigm of leadership. Whatever one might think of him, he undeniably has the royal jelly that makes him, and his party, a serious contender for power.

Buzz is that you with renewed vision of a Senate seat dancing in your head?

That's funny! Thanks for the yuk.

autoworker autoworker's picture

lagatta wrote:

Royal jelly? Now that is truly vomit-worthy.

Off with their heads!

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ah_!_%C3%A7a_ira

http://www.paroles-musique.com/clip-Edith_Piaf-Ca_Ira-video,c42621 Piaf singing it. Les aristocrates, on les pendra!

I must say that the little sparrow's anthem is filled with passion. Now, imagine Harper singing "je ne regrette rien"-- that would make anyone woof their cookies!

lagatta

What happened to Buzz? Is he still supporting that anti-worker party?

janfromthebruce

Last sighting of Buzz

Ontario teacher protest: Buzz Hargrove calls on teachers to resume extracurriculars

While he believes it is Dalton McGuinty who deserves the “lion’s share” of the blame for the current strife, by forcing contracts on teachers through Bill 115, the loss of support for both teachers and the Liberal government could lead to a Tory premier.

“It’s kind of a pox on all your houses by the general public, and unfortunately that could very well lead in the election to Tim Hudak and the Tories, who are going to be much tougher with teachers and unions.”

He said the unions should focus now on the Liberal leadership contest and upcoming election.

“I’d also try to convince the new premier to come back to the table and see if there’s a way to resolve some of the issues the teachers are so offended by,” he said.

Looks like he's still all buddies with the Libs and sticking his nose into education without bothering to chat with the head of etfo and only taking the Libs side of the story

He added that ETFO and its president Sam Hammond should have remained at the bargaining table longer before Bill 115 was passed.

“I haven’t talked to Sam Hammond, but the government claims they were only at the bargaining table for an hour ... I think if I’d been heading up the organization we would have tried to make the best of a bad situation by staying at the bargaining table,” he said.

Too bad he didn't bother to get the facts. First, the govt isn't and never has been the employer but public school boards are so would Hargrove suggest that the CAW should bargain with non employers?

Today, Mr. Hargrove... currently serves as the Executive Director (External) for the Centre for Labour Management Relations in the Ted Rogers School of Management at Ryerson University.

"Resident Expert Pool"

David Dingwall President and CEO, The Darius Group Inc.

Ernie Eves Special Advisor, Jacob Securities Inc.

Kevin Wilson Assistant Deputy Minister, Ontario Ministry of Labour

Bob Bass President, Bass Associates Ltd.

Stacey Allerton Vice President of Human Resources, Ford Canada

Gary Gannage President, AMAPCEO

Don Sinclair CEO, College Employer Council

Lewis Gotthell Counsel, Canadian Auto Workers

Richard Dixon Vice President and Human Resources Officer, NAV Canada

Reg Pearson Director of Dispute Resolution Services, Ontario Ministry of Labour

Frank Milligan Founder, Polywheels Inc.

Lana Payne President, Newfoundland-Labrador Federation of Labour

Louis Erlichman Canadian Research Director, International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers

Tim Armstrong Labour lawyer, Mediator and Arbitrator

Ken Delaney Consultant, McMaster University

Victor Pathe Principal, Pathe Gardner & Associates

 

So it looks pretty heavy on the management side of things, and pretty liberal.

Thread drift ends sort of (since about liberals)

 

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

This is a continuation of what I started in this thread at 248, (http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/justin-trudeau-harper-smile?page=8#comment-1394774) Tom Mulcair's reply to my email regarding the Liberals and FIPA which I publish here with Mr. Mulcair's permission:

Dear Mr. Cramer, 

Thank you for sharing your follow-up email regarding the recent vote on our motion to reject FIPA. 

As you state, the Liberals are being disingenuous on this issue. We introduced a motion in Parliament to reject the Canada-China FIPA deal. On April 18th two votes on our motion took place. The first vote was on a Liberal amendment to our motion which called for - non-binding - public hearings. We voted against their amendment because we know the time for public consultation has passed. Holding public hearings at this stage will not have any effect on FIPA. NDP Critic for International Trade, Don Davies, repeatedly called for consultation and discussion on this deal, but the Conservatives showed no interest in seeking any input. 

As it stands, FIPA has been signed by both the government of Canada and the government of China.  The next step is simply to ratify the agreement. It is not possible to renegotiate it at this stage. The Liberals know that compromise on this matter was not possible and their suggestions to the contrary are disingenuous. 

The second vote was on our motion that called on Canada to reject the deal. The vote represented the one opportunity for Parliamentarians to let Canadians know where they stood. New Democrats voted to reject FIPA while the Conservatives and Liberals voted together against our motion. As you already understand, the Liberals do not support the outright rejection of the Canada-China FIPA. This flies in the face of what we heard from the tens of thousands of Canadians who signed the LeadNow.ca petition and the many Canadians who have spoken out against this deal. 

Canadians deserve better. They deserve a party that is listening to their concerns. New Democrats will be their voice in Parliament.

Again, I appreciate hearing from you.

All the best,

 

 

Thomas Mulcair, M.P. (Outremont)

Leader of the Official Opposition

New Democratic Party of Canada

 

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Again, this email was sent me directly by Mr. Mulcair, the Leader of the OO and Leader of the NDP. I think this speaks to his accessibility and  shows he is willing to respond to responsibly written commentary. For those of you challenging Tom's sincerity, I'd suggest you try writing him and directly and see what happens. Post any reply good or bad here, and share it with us.

 

I sincerely doubt Justin Trudeau would respond this way and give his permission to publish his comments, " Feel free to post Tom’s response on Rabble or any other forum that you feel is appropriate." How oftern does someone of his prominence give you such carte blanche. I think this is a remarkable response, and deserves recognition.  I'd argue it says everything you need to know about his sincerity in being accessible. Le Dauphin would NEVER do this, EVER

 

Brachina

'I am hurt but I am not slain.I'll lay me down and bleed awhile,Then I'll rise and fight againp>

Arthur Cramer wrote:

This is a continuation of what I started in this thread at 248, (http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/justin-trudeau-harper-smile?page=8#comment-1394774) Tom Mulcair's reply to my email regarding the Liberals and FIPA which I publish here with Mr. Mulcair's permission:

Dear Mr. Cramer, 

Thank you for sharing your follow-up email regarding the recent vote on our motion to reject FIPA. 

As you state, the Liberals are being disingenuous on this issue. We introduced a motion in Parliament to reject the Canada-China FIPA deal. On April 18th two votes on our motion took place. The first vote was on a Liberal amendment to our motion which called for - non-binding - public hearings. We voted against their amendment because we know the time for public consultation has passed. Holding public hearings at this stage will not have any effect on FIPA. NDP Critic for International Trade, Don Davies, repeatedly called for consultation and discussion on this deal, but the Conservatives showed no interest in seeking any input. 

As it stands, FIPA has been signed by both the government of Canada and the government of China.  The next step is simply to ratify the agreement. It is not possible to renegotiate it at this stage. The Liberals know that compromise on this matter was not possible and their suggestions to the contrary are disingenuous. 

The second vote was on our motion that called on Canada to reject the deal. The vote represented the one opportunity for Parliamentarians to let Canadians know where they stood. New Democrats voted to reject FIPA while the Conservatives and Liberals voted together against our motion. As you already understand, the Liberals do not support the outright rejection of the Canada-China FIPA. This flies in the face of what we heard from the tens of thousands of Canadians who signed the LeadNow.ca petition and the many Canadians who have spoken out against this deal. 

Canadians deserve better. They deserve a party that is listening to their concerns. New Democrats will be their voice in Parliament.

Again, I appreciate hearing from you.

All the best,

 

 

Thomas Mulcair, M.P. (Outremont)

Leader of the Official Opposition

New Democratic Party of Canada

 

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Again, this email was sent me directly by Mr. Mulcair, the Leader of the OO and Leader of the NDP. I think this speaks to his accessibility and  shows he is willing to respond to responsibly written commentary. For those of you challenging Tom's sincerity, I'd suggest you try writing him and directly and see what happens. Post any reply good or bad here, and share it with us.

 

I sincerely doubt Justin Trudeau would respond this way and give his permission to publish his comments, " Feel free to post Tom’s response on Rabble or any other forum that you feel is appropriate." How oftern does someone of his prominence give you such carte blanche. I think this is a remarkable response, and deserves recognition.  I'd argue it says everything you need to know about his sincerity in being accessible. Le Dauphin would NEVER do this, EVER

 

Thanks AC, good work. This neatly combats the bullshit Liberal line that the NDP was against consulations.

Ippurigakko

Really, did they heard from LeadNow.ca petition things? Interesting....

mark_alfred

The At Issue panel on CBC was talking about the Conservative's handling of the senate issues (specifically Harper's chief of staff).  They were quite critical, saying that Harper's alienating his base with a poor response.  They then showed both Mulcair and Trudeau in Question Period, and from the brief clip I saw of Trudeau, I will say he wasn't bad.  His delivery seems to have gotten better.

I recall I predicted a while ago that the Conservatives would fade, and that the next election could potentially be a contest between the NDP and the Liberals.  So, once again I'll reiterate that prediction.  I do think the Conservatives will continue to fade, the Libs will plateau, and the NDP will slowly grow.

jjuares

mark_alfred wrote:

The At Issue panel on CBC was talking about the Conservative's handling of the senate issues (specifically Harper's chief of staff).  They were quite critical, saying that Harper's alienating his base with a poor response.  They then showed both Mulcair and Trudeau in Question Period, and from the brief clip I saw of Trudeau, I will say he wasn't bad.  His delivery seems to have gotten better.

I recall I predicted a while ago that the Conservatives would fade, and that the next election could potentially be a contest between the NDP and the Liberals.  So, once again I'll reiterate that prediction.  I do think the Conservatives will continue to fade, the Libs will plateau, and the NDP will slowly grow.

Trudeau's delievery is sometimes more restrained but it still stikes me as over the top. However many might like that. Each to his own.

janfromthebruce

I'm with JJ, It seems drama school "staged" not parliamentary "staged". And there is a difference.

Stockholm

Check this out - Justin Trudeau says in Quebec that he likes keeping the senate just as it is because it gives Quebec more power. He boasts that Quebec has 24 senators and gloats that BC only has SIX therefore keeping the senate is a good may to give Quebec more power over the rest of Canada...can't wait to see how that flies in BC!

http://blogs.canoe.ca/davidakin/politics/justin-trudeau-senate-is-quebec...

janfromthebruce

Justin appears to say he wants to only represent Quebec interests:

We have 24 senators from Quebec and there are just six from Alberta and British Columbia. It’s to our advantage. To want to abolish it is demagoguery. We’ll have to improve it.”

Justin Trudeau says provinces must have role in opening Constitution

I'm going to say it - those senators don't represent the interests of ordinary citizens as they are made up of party bagmen, loser candidates and MPs who lost in an election. They represent the elites not everyday citizens.

Abolish it and go to a mixed representation in the House of Commons. At least this way, it would be reflective of Canadian preferences and would perhaps provide more electorial representation of smaller parties that may spring up.

And personally to suggest that Quebecors would be against abolishing the Senate is to ignore that the population may not see the senate representing their interests at all. I think of the student movement and how they would view the "senate" of elder statespersons.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Expect plenty of this demagogery if he wns, this guy Trudeau is insufferable.

lagatta

It is bizarre how a pol of his generation can be so clueless about the instantaneous and persistent nature of internet and other communications.

Then he goes to BC where he is a proud British Columbian, like his mum, brother died there and all...

Brachina

I find it funny, he spaced out and didn't finish his sentance in the above links.

Sean in Ottawa

Jacob Two-Two wrote:

I agree, A24. Justin's celebrity is masking the deep structural weakness of the Liberal party. Pretty icing on a cardboard cake. The stuff that really wins elections is the stuff you don't see, the organisation, which I don't think the Liberals have any more.

NDP Quebec 2011.

How important is organization if you have votes.

I don't think the Liberals have no organization-- I think it went dormant but much is restored already. They have no lack of people that have worked elections in the past.

Sean in Ottawa

lagatta wrote:

Trudeau isn't underweight; he looks very fit. Bit of an airhead (glad to be able to use that about a man, for a change), entitled upper-class, supercilious twit, and not remotely progressive, but rather cute, non? Certainly not voting for him or anyone on that basis...

Guess we know what he was doing when he wasn't working or learning things..

mark_alfred

jjuares wrote:

mark_alfred wrote:

The At Issue panel on CBC was talking about the Conservative's handling of the senate issues (specifically Harper's chief of staff).  They were quite critical, saying that Harper's alienating his base with a poor response.  They then showed both Mulcair and Trudeau in Question Period, and from the brief clip I saw of Trudeau, I will say he wasn't bad.  His delivery seems to have gotten better.

I recall I predicted a while ago that the Conservatives would fade, and that the next election could potentially be a contest between the NDP and the Liberals.  So, once again I'll reiterate that prediction.  I do think the Conservatives will continue to fade, the Libs will plateau, and the NDP will slowly grow.

Trudeau's delievery is sometimes more restrained but it still stikes me as over the top. However many might like that. Each to his own.

I'm growing less confident of the statement I made above.  It's still too early to tell.  It's quite possible that the Libs will fade badly, and it will be a Con vs. NDP race, which frankly would be my preference.  Best to have a contest between parties who actually take a position.

Brachina

http://leftistjab.blogspot.ca/2013/05/this-justin-trudeau-statement-mana...

http://thewfds.blogspot.ca/2013/05/6053nick-at-night-justin-trudeau-and-...

I find it baffling that someone can support a man for PM who they believe should shut the fuck up.

janfromthebruce

I'm going to cross post your link from leftist Jab because he said what I think the majority of Quebecors think about the senate. Trudeau takes on a Central Canada elistist stream of thought in which he assumes that the underlings support the fee elites to use our money for play in politics. Abolish it and Trudeau con't talking without notes.

Brachina

Where did you cross post it out of curiousity?

Stockholm

Required reading!

"I don’t just want to replace Harper w a hipster — a cooler, kinder, gentler soul w much the same policies."

http://www.ipolitics.ca/2013/05/26/why-hating-harper-is-wrong/ …

Brachina

http://thewfds.blogspot.ca/2013/05/6058question-period-today-is.html?m=1

Apparently this is not the first time Dan has told Justin to Shut the Fuck Up. I liked the Tim Hudak comparsion.

Sean in Ottawa

Yeah well the centre of Canada politcally and power-wise is arguably Calgary right now.

The Centre of Trudeau's universe is Québec which I am not sure will be appreciated there but that is the way it is. He insults them by saying he and the Liberals can buy them again. In 2015 they will insult themselves if they do.

Canadian culture is not monolithic and anyone saying it is located on one particular place should get out more. By out I mean around like from sea to sea to sea.

I subscribe to the view that people of similar experience and circumstances in different places have more in common than people who live side by side in different circumstances. An oil worker in Calgary or Newfoundland has more in common with an autoworker in Ontario than that autoworker in Ontario has with an Ontario corporate executive or the oil worker has with the Calgary oil worker. The tower in Calgary and the one on Bay street are not all that different-- filled with similar white guys with the same view of the world from the 20th floor. Being divided by geography serves to help those who already divide us by money and so called class.

Kropotkin is right in that attacks can backfire. I am not a Liberal and it would take at least reincarnation to make me one. There are experiences with that party I will never forget that make me see that party's political and social culture in a particular way. There is nothing about Trudeau that changes any of that and a lot that confirms for me that nothing has changed.

We used to see the Trudeau's at the church we went to (my family was catholic once before I abandoned all cults). I had no reason not to like Justin. He was a cute kid. Still, I am so surprised that Trudeau is that popular given how little he has said or done to convince people that he has any answers.

Many here have two problems with this:

1) The Liberal party has often said nice things and then performed reversals that indicated a complete lack of principle or integrity. They talk the line but do not stand with the people. The NDP has done some of that-- and deserve not to be let off the hook -- but nothing like the Liberals. The Liberals are also a party of entitlement that without earning the political space they usually occupy take it up taking votes form people who might, just might, deserve to have a chance to actually do something. When the conservatives speak of Liberal entitlement they mean to the trough the Conservatives wish to claim as their own, as the privilege of money and corporate advantage. New Democrats mean entitled when they hear the Liberals claim to speak for parts of society they have always screwed and lied to, for principles they pronounce but never uphold. The entitlement to political space they sell out for money and power at every chance but seek to occupy the next time they feel the need. The Conservatives often gain more respect because they pretend to be nothing but the enemy most of the time. They promise to screw the working people and proceed to do just that. At least anyone who votes for them cannot claim to have been fooled. The NDP is often the party of the self-righteous but at least it stands for something most of the time and it is improving the lives of people rather than a quest for power simply to be the ones holding it. The NDP uses causes as well but at least means to help those causes rather than simply use them to get to power. I often felt the Liberals would never want to deliver on daycare simply because they would have to come up with something else to get them elected the next time.

2) Politics is serious business. It affects the lives of most people whether they know or admit it or not. Public policy makes a difference-- it can destroy, end or ruin lives or it can make a difference providing a little more fairness or opportunity than the open market would. To see people make political choices not based on what a party or person stands for, or does, or has done, is a mockery of the suffering and challenges that face the people. It is a wasted opportunity for many who need justice. Today in a time of extreme need for First Nations, a full on assault against working people, attempted rollbacks to gender equality, devastation to the environment that might not be reversible, we have a man of big name and no experience, seeking to take power (all hat, no cattle). And we see that because he is who he is, has nice hair and, to some, is charming, none of those important things weigh at all. He will be elected PM in that manner that prom kings are elected in high school. The seriousness of the lives that will be affected, the opportunities lost and injustice perpetuated by choosing a celebrity over real change is devastating. Many of us are past even wanting qualifications and talents alone (and Trudeau is short on even these). We want to vote for what someone will do and stand for and policies that can make Canada a better place. One that just might allow us to survive. One that might preserve some of the programs that provide a little dignity to our people like public health and education and support for seniors and children and opportunities for people who want to work. Instead we are being offered pretty. It is like watching all your neighbors go for cut flowers over plants that could feed people who are starving.

Yes, I hate Liberals. I hate the fact that they take up space due to their empty promises and treat us like they are Lucy and we are Charlie Brown. No, I don't want to play football with them. I want hope and change and justice.

I accept that some may vote Liberal. I accept Kropotkin's choice even as I hate the party he plans to vote for and hate the ease by which that party can fool us again and get us to vote for them. I was the one who gave them the idea to do a red book back in 1991 (they did it in 1993 bringing them to power). I had tried to get the NDP to do something like that before and believe in substance and accountability. But now I am revolted that they do not even need to pretend to have a plan to get the public's support. What's a policy and a plan got on great hair and pedigree? Trudeau has more in common with a poodle than he has with his father. Even as flawed as the elder Trudeau was, we are not even getting that. A previous generation asked for a lot more from its potential leaders before offering support -- now with 144 characters, a good line and oh so great hair, we don't care what we are getting. Yes, some of us are bitter. Just a little fucking bit. But we do believe in democracy. So much that we hope to see it one day. Democracy is about informed choices not trust me "I have great hair and a great right hook."

I hope Kropotkin asks more than most are asking of their Liberal celebrity who is just-in-time to prevent a party who has never governed federally before, who has represented important principles for the people, from getting a chance to prove itself. There are those who are upset that the Liberals, full of people who have grown up within that culture that rotted our political centre, should get to be judged as unworthy because they have not governed for most of the last decade. They should be entitled, based on pretty hair, to stand again in front of a party that has stood fighting for the people for generations without a chance at power. The club should once again be limited to those that promise to help us but always lie and those who promise to fuck us and always do. Tweedle-dumb and tweedle-not-so-dumb -but-fucking-hostile-to-the-people in everything they do. Tweedle-screw-you and tweedle-do-nothing-about-it. Sorry but the bitterness about the Liberal party at the moment when we might have hoped for something else is real. The little that Just-in-time has had to say to get the promise of government is appalling, is hopeless and infuriating. And so satisfying, I am sure, for the people that hold the power and dole out the hopelessness in exchange for our ability to hand over our votes -- repeatedly -- us getting nothing in return but what we should expect from experience. Oh Canada, how can you be so fucking predictable and gullible?

But yes, Kropotkin's choice is legitimate and should be respected for exactly what it is.

Brachina

Favourite part of the Sean was the comparison of Justin to a poodle more then his father lol.

I don't remember Kropto saying he was going to vote Liberal, I was under the impression he still had his soul ;p .

Sean in Ottawa

Brachina wrote:
Favourite part of the Sean was the comparison of Justin to a poodle more then his father lol. I don't remember Kropto saying he was going to vote Liberal, I was under the impression he still had his soul ;p .

I thought he described himself as a Liberal recently. If not I am so sorry. There is really nothing worse I could call anyone.

I know someone else here also said was moving to the Liberal Pied Piper... who was that again?

janfromthebruce

This past wknd Trudeau jr. pronounced that he was appalled that supposedly Mulcair would abolish the senat without consulting with provinces and territories but I guess he was a very short memory.

James Valcke ‏@ValckeNDP 9h

The vote where #LPC and Justin Trudeau voted against "consulting with provinces and territories" http://www.parl.gc.ca/HouseChamberBusiness/ChamberVoteDetail.aspx?Language=E&Mode=1&Parl=40&Ses=3&FltrParl=41&FltrSes=1&Vote=625 … #cdnpoli #abolish

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

But yes, Kropotkin's choice is legitimate and should be respected for exactly what it is.

I have never voted Liberal and I never will vote Liberal. I don't fucking know why anyone who wants to discuss politics from a nuanced perspective is labelled a Liberal.  You are usually better than that Sean, I am disgusted with your misrepresentation of my views.  Just because I think the NDP is not the answer does not mean I think that the Liberals are the answer.  Just because I think that the NDP is going to lose out to the Liberals next election does not mean I necessarily want that outcome it is merely political analysis.

I will say it again I have never voted Liberal and unlike many on this board I do not trust Mulcair precisely because he sat as Liberal Cabinet Minister in a neo conservative government that is very similar to the Campbell government that has screwed BC residents.  The NDP is taking up the left wing side of the Ottawa political spectrum while trying to appeal to the middle class status quo voters. They can't do both well and given the party's pragmatic approach to winning power at any cost it is the left wing vision that suffers.

I do not believe in the lesser of evils politics and that is all that can be said about the current NDP. It is the lesser of evils however like all lesser of evils parties it will only make tiny changes and none of those tiny changes will deal effectively with the big problems we are facing. You can't fight the effects of globalization when  you agree with free trade agreements and support NATO in all its endeavors. You can't fight the effects of climate change by supporting pipelines that run east instead of north or south. You can't get real change out of a party led by a Liberal named Mulcair or the real Liberal party led by Trudeau.

 

Brachina

Kropto I did point out that you didn't say you'd vote Liberal. And Sean just confused you with someone else.

I can understand being offended by the suggestion of being a Liberal, anyone with good sense would be, but its all a misunderstanding.

Brachina

http://www.leaderpost.com/mobile/story.html?id=8442359

This basically says it all, Trudeau blew it, he's letting Harper get away with it, because now its all about Justin's big mouth.

Justin Trudeau, Harper's new bff\target.

The NDP will continue to attack Harper on this, but Justin deflected enough energy to himself that Harper will survive it. Hopefully Justin pays for this with his popularity.

Brachina

The Star once again trying to protect Justin by pushing Justingate to the very bottom of the article and saying very little.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013/05/28/senate_expenses_scandal_ha...

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