Justin Trudeau's Family Home Broken Into While Wife And Children Slept

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Debater
Justin Trudeau's Family Home Broken Into While Wife And Children Slept

Whether you like Justin Trudeau or not, I hope everyone will agree that this appalling.  As Gerald Butts said today, there are 3 children under the age of 7 living in the house.  Apparently Sophie Grégoire and the kids were asleep, and Justin was in another province at the time.

While Canada is a relatively non-violent country, we need to increase the amount of RCMP protection our leaders receive.  This brings back memories of the man who broke into Sussex Drive and tried to get Jéan Chrétien back in the 1990's.  Luckily nothing violent happened in this case.

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Justin Trudeau's Family Home Broken Into While Wife And Children Slept

Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau's home in Ottawa was broken into overnight, his office confirmed Saturday.

"Early [Saturday] morning, the Trudeau family discovered that their family home had been broken into. Ms. Grégoire-Trudeau and the children were asleep at the time of the incident, and Mr. Trudeau was working in Winnipeg," a statement from spokeswoman Kate Purchase said.

Everyone in the family is safe, and nobody was harmed, she added. Both the Ottawa police and the RCMP are investigating the incident.

Trudeau told CBC Saturday his family was shaken by the incident.

Although The Ottawa Citizen cited an Ottawa Police source saying that a note on the back patio had been left advising the owners to keep their doors locked in case of theft, HuffPost was told the note was "threatening." A source with close knowledge of the incident described it as "very serious." Nothing, however, was stolen.

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http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/08/16/justin-trudeau-break-in_n_568455...

Debater

Vandals break into Trudeau home while family asleep

Police are investigating a break-in at the Rockcliffe Park home of Liberal leader Justin Trudeau.

“Early this morning, the Trudeau family discovered that their family home had been broken into. Ms. Grégoire-Trudeau and the (three) children were asleep at the time of the incident, and Mr. Trudeau was working in Winnipeg,” said a release from the Liberal Party of Canada.

“Everyone in the family is safe, and nobody was harmed.”

In Winnipeg, Trudeau confirmed the break-in.

“Obviously we’re extremely troubled by this,” he told reporters.

“Everybody’s safe, but the idea of someone getting into the house while my family was sleeping, while I’m away working is very distressing, to say the least.”

Sophie Grégoire-Trudeau and the children have left the home to join Trudeau in Montreal.

According to reports, the vandals left a “threatening” note inside the home.

An Ottawa Police Service sergeant confirmed an investigation is underway, but said any further information would be released later today by OPS or the RCMP, which provides security to senior politicians.

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http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/vandals-warn-justin-trudeau-to-...

Pondering

This is why I am so strongly against naming politicians and declaring they should be killed. We need to rachet down inflamatory language that encourages radical crusaders to think of themselves as heroes for acting when others only talk.

Thank goodness no one was hurt. Trudeau must be upset that he wasn't there and the house wasn't secure enough.

Unionist
lagatta

It has nothing to do with whether or not one likes Trudeau. I most certainly don't want him to be a victim of a break-in or threats. Don't even wish that on Harper (though I would like to see the latter slinging burgers, with no pension prospects).

Rockcliffe Park is certainly normally a safe area. It sounds like someone "obsessed" by Trudeau.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

As I said in another thread,sounds like the lunatic element of the Conservative movement and if that is the case,it's not going to help Harpie (thank krist)

Pondering

lagatta wrote:
Don't even wish that on Harper (though I would like to see the latter slinging burgers, with no pension prospects).

That painted an excellent picture. I actually visualized. I agree that it is possible to detest someone's politics while drawing a firm line against violence.

Sean in Ottawa

I think that is where MOST Canadians are.

Would not want anyone harmed.

But I sure would not want Harper giving me food.

I'd rather he picked mushrooms that at least would get washed first and I would not have to see him near anything I might eat.

Pondering

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/08/17/michael-den-tandt-vile-re...

Ever so slowly, or perhaps not so slowly, Canadian political dialogue is devolving into a mosh pit where even the vilest personal attacks are more or less routine...

Most people who suffer home invasions describe it as akin to an assault or violation. Breaking into someone’s house in the night, for the sole purpose of intimidating or frightening a woman and her children, is the worst kind of cowardice, base almost beyond comprehension. Reaction to such an act, without exception you’d think, would be revulsion.

But no. On Twitter – home to all important Canadian political debate now that Question Period in the Commons has become a set piece – some revelled in the news. Hug-a-terrorist Justin Trudeau, targeted by home-invading thugs; what fun! There were Tweets mockingly tying the break-in to Trudeau’s stance on marijuana. Maybe the burglars were after pot! Ho ho. Others tried, clumsily and with the hackneyed spelling so common in Twitter’s nether parts, to be sardonic....

...Now, here’s what’s interesting about the episode: The venom wasn’t one-sided. As quickly as Trudeau haters popped up to dine out on the break-in, Stephen Harper-haters piled on with their own equally anile attacks — alleging variously that Conservative party stooges carried out the break-in, that Prime Minister Harper personally bore full responsibility, and that Harper himself is a [insert unprintable here]. Tweeters who spew venom at Harper alone are Liberal partisans, primarily, because the Dipper haters have a distinguishing feature: They despise both Harper and Trudeau equally.

Interesting equation if it's true, Liberals attack only Harper, NDP attacks Liberals and Conservatives, I wonder if Conservatives attack just the Liberals or both the Liberals and the NDP.

lagatta

What do you expect from a Sun and Pest columnist?

This is scary:

Third, online anonymity, in social media and news comment streams, should be abolished. That is a step that publishers can take. It would require some re-jigging, and might crimp online traffic at the outset. But it would have an immediate salutary effect on the quality of public debate in Canada, and would also target bullies.

Yes, of course we are "responsible" if we threaten anyone online; the police can easily find any of our accounts. But abolishing anonymity, or rather web handles, means a lot of people simply can't comment, as we have employment or other security concerns. Hardly democratic.

nicky

I thought this was pretty much a non-story until I read in today's Globe that the police are not commenting on the break-in.

The news seems to be coming out of Justin's office. I would have thought that his family's safety would have been best served by keeping things quiet so as not to encourage copy cats. 

It is too early to jump to conclusions but it looks like Trudeau may have publicized this matter himself for some possible advantage.

Sean in Ottawa

That would not be wise-- I thoguht the public coverage of a problem with locking doors particularly stupid. No way should that have been public knowledge.

pookie

nicky wrote:

I thought this was pretty much a non-story until I read in today's Globe that the police are not commenting on the break-in.

The news seems to be coming out of Justin's office. I would have thought that his family's safety would have been best served by keeping things quiet so as not to encourage copy cats. 

It is too early to jump to conclusions but it looks like Trudeau may have publicized this matter himself for some possible advantage.

Surely you jest.

Bacchus

Im guessing sarcasm Pookie?

 

Everything is a political tool to these guys. 

voice of the damned

Pondering wrote:

Interesting equation if it's true, Liberals attack only Harper, NDP attacks Liberals and Conservatives, I wonder if Conservatives attack just the Liberals or both the Liberals and the NDP.

That's likely true, as far as it goes. 

But the thing is, by attacking the Conservatives, the Liberals are indirectly attacking the NDP. Because when the Liberals say "Those Conservatives are SCARY!!", the implicit add-on is "In fact, so scary that you better not waste your vote on the NDP."

If the Liberals refrain from attacking the NDP directly, it's likely because a good number of the voters they're chasing consider themselves, if only in a vague sorta way, to be social democratic, and would be offended to hear stull like "Those NDP just wanna waste your tax money on welfare bums and crackheads."

As for the Conservatives not attacking the NDP as much, federally that might be true, because the Conservatives and the NDP don't really compete for the same voting blocks. It would be a different story in some of the provinces, where the Liberals aren't a factor and the main competition is between the Conservatives and the NDP. BC, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba for example(though in the first two places, the conservatives go under a different name.)

 

 

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

lol pookie

Unionist

 

cco

Quote:

Third, online anonymity, in social media and news comment streams, should be abolished. That is a step that publishers can take. It would require some re-jigging, and might crimp online traffic at the outset. But it would have an immediate salutary effect on the quality of public debate in Canada, and would also target bullies.

I have a better idea: abolish comments sections on news sites. I can't remember the last time I read something remotely worthwhile on one.

Pondering

Of course the police aren't commenting officially they never do. duh. They didn't say they were keeping it private for the sake of the family's safety. There is no way the break-in would have stayed private. That sort of thing always leaks because too many people find out about it and because it is juicy information. Information leaked directly from police.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/08/17/knives_left_in_justin_trud...

A police source told CBC Ottawa the letter warned the family to lock their doors in the future because items could have been stolen. Officers found the letter, purportedly left by the vandals, when they went to the back door of the home, the source said.

Increased security has to be arranged leading to even more people knowing about the incident and newspapers would obviously be asking about security arrangements and writing about it and Sophie and the kids joined Trudeau rather than staying in the house. Neighbours would have seen the commotion when police and investigators showed up. How many cars do you think responded? But don't let that deter you from your suspicions because some information was leaked from sources close to Trudeau.

A note left in Justin Trudeau’s Ottawa home during a break-in Saturday morning was placed on top of an arrangement of large knives, according to a source close to the Liberal Party leader.

Five or six large butcher knives were laid out inside the home, some on the floor, the source told the Star.

The note, which Trudeau called “threatening,” rested on the knives.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/08/17/knives_left_in_justin_trud...

The notion that Trudeau would do anything to increase the threat to his family to score cheap political points is blind partisanship. He's not a monster. He loves his wife and kids and won't leave them alone in the house until he is sure it is secure. If I were Sophie I don't think I would ever want to go back.

But go ahead, run with it, like all the other mud slung at Trudeau it won't stick to him but it will stick to those flinging it. 

Bacchus

*shrugs* its politics

 

Shoot shovel and shut up

nicky

So Pondering admits it was the Liberal Party rather than the police that released the information.

The police would naturally want to keep details of the investigation secret, but not the Liberals.

And why would the Liberal Party release it except to create sympathy and, to use Pondering's ponderous phrase, "to score cheap political points"?

Much as Pondering does so constantly here.

If Trudeau "loves his wife and kids" as Pondering assures us, then engendering all this publicity about them is a strange way of showing it.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

cco wrote:
Quote:

Third, online anonymity, in social media and news comment streams, should be abolished. That is a step that publishers can take. It would require some re-jigging, and might crimp online traffic at the outset. But it would have an immediate salutary effect on the quality of public debate in Canada, and would also target bullies.

I have a better idea: abolish comments sections on news sites. I can't remember the last time I read something remotely worthwhile on one.

Here is a link to BC's Tyee newssite.  The discussion is generally more progressive than on this site. It does highlight the audience for the Tyee and its left of centre focus.

http://thetyee.ca/

Debater

nicky wrote:

I thought this was pretty much a non-story until I read in today's Globe that the police are not commenting on the break-in.

The news seems to be coming out of Justin's office. I would have thought that his family's safety would have been best served by keeping things quiet so as not to encourage copy cats. 

It is too early to jump to conclusions but it looks like Trudeau may have publicized this matter himself for some possible advantage.

Typical vicious post from you.  Trying to blame Justin Trudeau for this & turn it into a personal attack on him.

The Liberal Party had to release a statement because the news had gotten out in Rockcliffe Park and Sophie & the kids changed their plans and left Ottawa to be with Justin in Montréal because they were scared.

And the police HAVE commented on the case because the press contacted them -- they just aren't releasing the full details, and neither is Trudeau.  They are waiting for the results of the investigation.

The type of smear you just made on Trudeau is exactly the type of demeaning political discourse that Michael Den Tandt wrote about in today's column.

Debater

alan smithee wrote:

As I said in another thread,sounds like the lunatic element of the Conservative movement and if that is the case,it's not going to help Harpie (thank krist)

Yes, Harper better hope that IF the RCMP finds out who did this, it isn't some Conservative staffer-type like Michael Sona or someone with a Conservative Party membership.

Harper has fostered an atmosphere of hate and negativity, and even if he wasn't personally involved, he could be held responsible for the public.

Jacob Two-Two

Even the Conservative party isn't that dumb. This is probably just some nut like with what happened to Chretien. Big wake-up call for his security detail though. Who was in charge of that, I wonder?

nicky

Spare us the sanctimony Debater. Justin and the Liberals are all over the media today milking this for everything they can get.

If they were really concerned about security they would instead be working quietly with the authorities.

If you need proof of how the Liberal mind works on this just look at the gushing post that opens this thread. A post from someone who never says anything without the hope it will further the Liberal cause.

The first thing that went through that poster's mind when he heard this news was not " Is Justin's family safe?" but "how can we exploit this politically?"

Do you really think you're fooling anyone Debater?

onlinediscountanvils

Unionist wrote:

 

 

I'll concede this is a more appropriate choice than the "don't give a shit" gif I was planning to post.

Sean in Ottawa

This would be a big story and it would get out regardless of which political leader. That it is Trudeau even bigger. The fact that he has small kids even bigger.

No point making this bigger than it is.

Probably a pile of people wanting their 5 minutes-- would have happened in another party as well.

I certainly don't think Trudeau himself is behind any media leak on this.

Debater

nicky wrote:

Spare us the sanctimony Debater. Justin and the Liberals are all over the media today milking this for everything they can get.

If they were really concerned about security they would instead be working quietly with the authorities.

If you need proof of how the Liberal mind works on this just look at the gushing post that opens this thread. A post from someone who never says anything without the hope it will further the Liberal cause.

The first thing that went through that poster's mind when he heard this news was not " Is Justin's family safe?" but "how can we exploit this politically?"

Do you really think you're fooling anyone Debater?

You're full of crap, nicky.

And I'm probably not going to engage with you any further in the future.  You are a hater.  That's all you ever are.

You laughingly call yourself a 'progressive'.  You seem to forget that part of being a 'progressive' means showing some compassion for your fellow Man once in a while, a quality which you do not posess.

Now you're trying to smear me for 'gushing' over this story?  What the heck are you talking about?  It had already been reported that Justin's family was safe when I posted the story, so there was no need for me to ask that question!  I saw Justin interviewed on the news, and heard him saying that Sophie & the kids were on their way to join him in Montreal!  Since you are not the brightest bulb, you didn't seem to grasp that.  As usual, you just decided to leap to conclusions and try to smear me.

You have the same ethical code as Stephen Harper.  Why not just accuse Justin Trudeau of staging the whole break-in himself?  You know that's where you want to go next.  And why not accuse me of being the burglar?  You'd probably like to do that as well.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Debater wrote:

nicky wrote:

Spare us the sanctimony Debater. Justin and the Liberals are all over the media today milking this for everything they can get.

If they were really concerned about security they would instead be working quietly with the authorities.

If you need proof of how the Liberal mind works on this just look at the gushing post that opens this thread. A post from someone who never says anything without the hope it will further the Liberal cause.

The first thing that went through that poster's mind when he heard this news was not " Is Justin's family safe?" but "how can we exploit this politically?"

Do you really think you're fooling anyone Debater?

You're full of crap, nicky.

And I'm probably not going to engage with you any further in the future.  You are a hater.  That's all you ever are.

You laughingly call yourself a 'progressive'.  You seem to forget that part of being a 'progressive' means showing some compassion for your fellow Man once in a while, a quality which you do not posess.

Now you're trying to smear me for 'gushing' over this story?  What the heck are you talking about?  It had already been reported that Justin's family was safe when I posted the story, so there was no need for me to ask that question!  I saw Justin interviewed on the news, and heard him saying that Sophie & the kids were on their way to join him in Montreal!  Since you are not the brightest bulb, you didn't seem to grasp that.  As usual, you just decided to leap to conclusions and try to smear me.

You have the same ethical code as Stephen Harper.  Why not just accuse Justin Trudeau of staging the whole break-in himself?  You know that's where you want to go next.  And why not accuse me of being the burglar?  You'd probably like to do that as well.

That's a personal attack Debater. For my money, I think you should apologize.

nicky

Don't worry about me Arthur. 

Just consider the source.

Pondering

Arthur Cramer wrote:
That's a personal attack Debater. For my money, I think you should apologize.

Suggesting that Debater's first thought was how the situation could be exploited to the extent that he didn't even care if the family was safe is a personal attack too and completely uncalled for. That is a vile thing to say about someone and pretty much the definition of being a hater.

 

terrytowel

Conservative MP Ryan Leef tweeted “Since Justin thinks budgets balance themselves maybe he thinks doors lock themselves.”

He has since apologized and deleted the tweet.

 

nicky

Pondering, perhaps you can point to a single post from Debater anywhere in these threads that is NOT transparently motivated by blind promotion of the Liberal cause?

thorin_bane

Pondering wrote:

Arthur Cramer wrote:
That's a personal attack Debater. For my money, I think you should apologize.

Suggesting that Debater's first thought was how the situation could be exploited to the extent that he didn't even care if the family was safe is a personal attack too and completely uncalled for. That is a vile thing to say about someone and pretty much the definition of being a hater.

 


you must be new around here. Because debater should have been banned for baiting and trolling years ago. Its in the policy, something you should consider reading.

thorin_bane

DP, this never use to happen two servers ago.

Pondering

nicky wrote:
Pondering, perhaps you can point to a single post from Debater anywhere in these threads that is NOT transparently motivated by blind promotion of the Liberal cause?

He is a member of the Liberal party. Seems natural that he is motivated to promote the Liberal party. That doesn't make him a sociopath. It's not like anyone here is in danger of being converted.

Are you telling me that if Tom Mulcair's house had been broken into while his wife slept and a threatening note left behind you wouldn't post it here at the first opportunity?

nicky

Yes I am telling you that Pondering.

I wouldn't try to exploit it for partisan advantage as Debater and some other Liberals obviously are doing.

Unionist

What a bunch of childish posts. Moving this to the World Cup thread.

 

lagatta

For diving?

Pondering

thorin_bane wrote:
you must be new around here. Because debater should have been banned for baiting and trolling years ago. Its in the policy, something you should consider reading.

Seems like many people have failed to read it:

All babblers agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this discussion board to post any material that is knowingly false and/or defamatory. You agree to avoid personal insults, attacks and mischievous antagonism (otherwise known as "trolling"). You will not post material that is inaccurate, abusive, hateful, harassing, obscene, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy or otherwise in violation of Canadian law. You understand that racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, classist (e.g. poor-bashing) and other oppressive language that degrades marginalized communities is not acceptable. This policy applies to both public and private messages.

 

Suggesting that someone cares more about posting on this message board than that lives of Trudeau and is family is insulting.

Saying a board member is using this event for political profit is insulting.

Mocking people is mischievious antagonism.

Falsely paraphrasing people or attributing views to them that they have not expressed qualifies as mischievious antagonism.

Calling someone racist is insulting.

Objecting to these behaviors is fine.

 

Bacchus

Might be insulting but not unusual here

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Pondering, why is that only NDP Partisans need to apologize. I have publicly apologized to others on this board, including you. Is this a courtesy to which only LPC partisans are not obligated. From what I understand, Using the word "hater", on this board is not,to say the least, encouraged. And, as the old saying goes,"two wrongs do not make a right". It seems to
Me abusive language is abusive language, and not defensible. The same standard should apply to all, shouldn't it?

Pondering

Arthur Cramer wrote:
Pondering, why is that only NDP Partisans need to apologize. I have publicly apologized to others on this board, including you. Is this a courtesy to which only LPC partisans are not obligated. From what I understand, Using the word "hater", on this board is not,to say the least, encouraged. And, as the old saying goes,"two wrongs do not make a right". It seems to Me abusive language is abusive language, and not defensible. The same standard should apply to all, shouldn't it?

I have apologized too.

Sometimes debate gets heated, things get expressed more strongly than they should, or misunderstandings occur. It escalates until someone crosses the line. There was no heated debate here. There is history I am not familiar with,I so I am not saying there's no background or context that makes it more understandable, but I have frequently noticed one liner pot shots being taken at Debater by Nicky that are focused on Debater rather than on the topic at hand. They come out of the blue. There is no prior discussion, nothing to have been offended by other than Debater's existence.

I have been thinking about partisanship too. I am partisan towards Justin Trudeau, but not blindly so. I do give him the benefit of the doubt but I try to be reasonably objective. I see his faults. I may not put as much weight on them as I would if I didn't like him, but I still acknowledge that they exist. There are just other factors that for me outweight his flaws for this election cycle.

I'd say 99% there is no way I will change my vote, but it isn't 100%. I have a much higher opinon of him than many people here. If I am right he is going to sail through the campaign with a few gaffes or showing a few weaknesses but they won't impact him negatively. If I am wrong he will fall flat on his face as so many expect.

lagatta

Well, I think that unfortunately you may well be right. I think he is a vapid upper-class twit. I've met him several times, by the way, at community events in his riding.

Is that "hate"? I certainly don't wish him or his famly ill, and I wish no physical harm to Harper either; just want him out of office. (We do have fantasies about him being in a poorly-paid, subaltern job, but that doesn't happen to people of his class - Jean Charest is doing just fine). Neither does being charged with eco-crimes. I highly doubt that even Ed Burkhardt will ever be in the dock or see the inside of a prison cell.

The Liberals are Bay Street's other party.

Pondering

lagatta wrote:

Well, I think that unfortunately you may well be right. I think he is a vapid upper-class twit. I've met him several times, by the way, at community events in his riding.

Is that "hate"? I certainly don't wish him or his famly ill, and I wish no physical harm to Harper either; just want him out of office. (We do have fantasies about him being in a poorly-paid, subaltern job, but that doesn't happen to people of his class - Jean Charest is doing just fine). Neither does being charged with eco-crimes. I highly doubt that even Ed Burkhardt will ever be in the dock or see the inside of a prison cell.

The Liberals are Bay Street's other party.

No I don't think that's hate. I think your opinion is rooted in an informed world view that I may not share or may be more radical than I am comfortable with. I think your judgement of him is harsh but you have a right to your opinion. I appreciate that you see the same line I do between vehement opposition and physical threats, even used rhetorically.

thorin_bane

Pondering you do know when Debater first came on here, excuse me for the first few years he was on here, he would claim to be non partisan while doing almost the same thing he is doing now. Even after being called out on it. Ever notice debaitor in the polling thread when the libs are down at all? Nope because when the going gets tough, debaitor is no where to be seen. That is by definition a troll. Just someone looking for a reaction.

Debater

I never claimed to be 'non-partisan'.  I said I was a Liberal-NDPer, which I was in those days.  I have worked for the NDP in the past.  But in recent elections I have only worked for the Liberals.  And being supportive of the Liberals and posting good news about them does not make me a troll.  Why is it okay to cheerlead for the NDP here, but doing so for the Liberals is considered wrong.  And don't call me a troll - I don't do that to you.  

Anyway, the main issue above was that 'nicky', one of the most hardcore NDP partisans here, falsely accused me & the rest of the Liberals as trying to use the Trudeau break-in for political gain.  I did no such thing.  nicky never apologizes for this type of attack, and it lowers the level of the debate here.

Debater

Getting back to the main topic of the thread:

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Justin Trudeau's home break-in: Video of person of interest released

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/justin-trudeau-s-home-break-in-vide...

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

Debater wrote:

I never claimed to be 'non-partisan'.  I said I was a Liberal-NDPer, which I was in those days.  I have worked for the NDP in the past.  But in recent elections I have only worked for the Liberals.  And being supportive of the Liberals and posting good news about them does not make me a troll.  Why is it okay to cheerlead for the NDP here, but doing so for the Liberals is considered wrong.  And don't call me a troll - I don't do that to you.  

I agree. While I generally disagree with you, and I find your Liberal cheerleading annoying, this does not make you a troll in my opinion. I see nothing wrong with Liberal cheerleaders posting on babble, if they wish. If I were a Liberal, I would probably look for a more Lib-friendly discussion group than babble, but your right to be here is perfectly clear.

thorin_bane

No but he only shows up when its conveniant, and always to post either about the NDP being beaten up in the media or some puff piece for the liberals. Still a troll. Where is his opinion when its just a general discussion say on euthanasia. Unless its a liberal leader realted article, Debater is not to be seen. And so called recent elections would likely be longer than he has been here, when he repeatedly said he wasn't a liberal. Joined 2009, so probably a liberal at that point is pretty safe to assume. Also if you are working on their campaigns that seems pretty suspect.

I'm not a troll because I don't go to liberal.ca and say wow seen how bad you guys did in the last election. Falling to thrid place you should just pack your tent up. Which you do here. There are reasons why the people who were once regulars here have left for greener pastures. I check in but I don't post daily like I once did.

 

Sadly I have come to understand why some dipper hate liberals more than cons.

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