Labrador By-Election

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David Young

What would have happened in the 2002 Windsor West by-election when Herb Gray retired and Brian Masse won if the NDP had decided that there was no point in contesting a by-election in a riding that they had never won?

The Liberals had 20729 votes to the C.A.'s 8777 and the NDP's 6080 in the 2000 election, but Masse won the seat just 2 years later.

Granted, Labrador doesn't have the same-sized population, but give the voters some credit that they can make up their own minds whom they want as the M.P.

 

mark_alfred

I find it amazing that some people get so stirred up by May's silly games.  I recall when she and Dion did this in Central Nova (and whatever Dion's riding was).  Even though the NDP had came second in Central Nova previously, she declared herself to the best able to take out Peter MacKay, and tried to create it as a treason that the NDP were going to still contest the riding.  Surreal.  Best to ignore her.

Sean in Ottawa

Ken-- I think it is possible to expidite the process faster than it is now. This case is already a couple years old. Yes law grinds slowly but not always and it does not have to in a case like this.

David Young-- What is the point of the comparison you are making? The issue was not about a seat that had not been won before or even any conclusion the seat was not winnable.

 

adma

adma wrote:
Then again, unlike Laborador,

 

Now, *that* typo will look prophetic in the event of an NDP victory;-)

Stockholm

Mike Goosney recently fulfilled a lifelong dream and got to sing "O Canada" at a hockey arena...in this interview with him he sounds like a very decent guy.

http://www.cbc.ca/labradormorning/episodes/2013/01/30/labrador-city-man-...

I haven't a clue who will win the nomination and they each have their strengths...Goosney likely has a core of friends and family and co-workers in Lab City who would have also helped him get elected to city council there, but Borlase must also have a lot of connections in Goose bay and he seems to have more of a social media presence etc...

Debater

I don't think Elizabeth May is quite the wonderful person she portrays herself to be over her offer of not running a Green candidate in Labrador.  Joyce Murray seems impressed by it, but did she not stop and ask May why she is willing to do this in Labrador but did not do so in Calgary Centre?  In Calgary Centre it would have made a difference because in that riding the Greens took a substantial share of the vote and may have allowed Joan Crockatt to finish ahead of Harvey Locke by spliting the vote.

By contrast, the Greens have virtually no historical support in Labrador.  It's unlikely to have any effect in Labrador if May removes the Green candidate since the Greens barely get any votes there.  So I'm not sure if May is as committed as she appears to helping the progressive alliance.

Stockholm

Elizabeth May certainly does like to portray herself as a "wonderful person", if only more people knew what a horrible person she actually is. Virtually all politicians are egotists to some extent - but she is in a class of her own in terms of being singularly motivated by personal vanity and delusions of grandeur. Her nickname in Ottawa is apparently Elizabeth MEEEE.

felixr

The NDP needs to try and win every riding, if it is serious about governing (for all Canadians).

NorthReport

I think it is doing so, n'est pas?

Debater

Elizabeth May didn't seem to mind the Greens playing the spoiler in the Calgary-Centre by-election. How come?  The Cons only won by 4 points.  If just 5% of the 25% Green vote had voted Liberal, Joan Crockatt wouldn't have won.  I'd be interested to know May's thoughts on that one.

 

Calgary Centre By Election - 2012

Con - 36.87%

Lib - 32.68%

Green - 25.65%

NDP - 3.85%

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calgary_Centre

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Debater wrote:

Elizabeth May didn't seem to mind the Greens playing the spoiler in the Calgary-Centre by-election. How come?  The Cons only won by 4 points.  If just 5% of the 25% Green vote had voted Liberal, Joan Crockatt wouldn't have won.  I'd be interested to know May's thoughts on that one.

 

Calgary Centre By Election - 2012

Con - 36.87%

Lib - 32.68%

Green - 25.65%

NDP - 3.85%

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calgary_Centre

I think May may have decided that going forward she is going to attempt to try and put pressure on the NDP in the hope that it will help her or the Libs down the line; but, I don't think she has any plans for the Greens to sit by the side. I think this is entirely about trying to embrass the NDP whenever it is the best startegy for her. And, I meant, her. So, there is not any point about asking her about this Calgary riding. The NFLD race peresents HER a chance to make political hay at the expense of the NDP, and she'll do it every chance she can. I have no idea what her motiviation is at all. I would welcome someone offering a theory. At the very least, it is very easy to say she is NO friend of the NDP, in all cases, period. If anything, her affinity is Con/Lib, period.

nicky

Here is a tweet that may help explain Elizabeth May's retreat from contesting the Labrador by-election:

 

Pundits' Guide ‏@punditsguide16h

Labrador Green Party riding assoc deregistered on Feb 29, 2008. #gpc got 139 votes in Labrador in #elxn41. "Cooperation"!

 

nicky

If Penashue were to win the by-election and subsequently be found guilty of fundraising and spending violations in the 2011 general election what would happen?

Would he then lose his seat or would his re-election in the by-election somehow avoid that?

KenS

And apparently the Green Party of Canada has 2 members in Labrador.

Out of a total of 26 in NL. [And may have declined since the data was posted.]

Stockholm

Where does that GPC membership data come from?

Brachina
KenS

He is using / referring to GPC data when he last saw it. If anything, more up to date numbers would be lower still.

I saw in the paper that Joyce Murray was claiming credit for getting May to do it.

Bright lights shining together.

Stockholm

The exciting news is that if you live in Labrador you no longer have to make that difficult decision as whether to vote Liberal or Green, Yvonne Jones is now the "Green-Liberal" candidate and anyone in Labrador who votes for her is also voting for whatever secret deal was cooked up in the backroom between her and Elizabeth May. Think of all the good people of Labrador who can now rest assured that vote for Yvonne Jones is ALSO a vote for Elizabeth May! Isn't is exciting?

adma

felixr wrote:

The NDP needs to try and win every riding, if it is serious about governing (for all Canadians).

Or more properly, to appear as a credible voting option in every riding, even those it hasn't a realistic chance of winning.

The fact that they saved their deposit in all but two ridings in '11, and placed 2nd in those two remaining ridings, shows the way.

pookie

Stockholm wrote:

No one is attacking Yvonne Jones...in fact, i wonder why she doesn't want to take back her old job as NL Liberal leader...she only stepped down for health reasons, the job is still vacant and she is now apparently healthy enough to want to grueling job of being MP for Labrador.

 

Um, I would say describing someone who left a position because of breast cancer as "deciding she was too ill and....leaving them in the lurch" is pretty close to an attack.  Or, at least, shockingly derisive.

 

Unionist

nicky wrote:

If Penashue were to win the by-election and subsequently be found guilty of fundraising and spending violations in the 2011 general election what would happen?

Would he then lose his seat or would his re-election in the by-election somehow avoid that?

Good question. [url=http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/E-2.01/page-175.html#docCont]Here's[/url] what I found, whatever it means:

Quote:

(3) Any person who is convicted of having committed an offence that is an illegal practice or a corrupt practice under this Act shall, in addition to any other punishment for that offence prescribed by this Act, in the case of an illegal practice, during the next five years or, in the case of a corrupt practice, during the next seven years, after the date of their being so convicted, not be entitled to

  • (a) be elected to or sit in the House of Commons; or

  • (b) hold any office in the nomination of the Crown or of the Governor in Council.

 

jerrym

While there may be some collusion between the Greens and Liberals in the Labrador riding race, I think this is much more indicative of the weak position the Green Party finds itself in today. The loss of the federal vote subsidy has contributed to the disbanding of a growing number of Green Party Electoral District Associations. The good showings in the Victoria and Calgary by-elections were a product of the fact these were in the two provinces where they are strong and the fact that they were by-elections meant they could concentrate their resources.

http://greencanada.wordpress.com/2013/03/24/rofl-the-green-party-concede...

Even in BC, where the Green Party is strongest, the party has been in decline since receiving 12% of the vote in 2001 provincial election. In 2005 it obtained 9% and in 2009, it received 8%. Adriane Carr, who used the annual leadership review process to depose Stuart Parker in 2000 and then abolished leadership review, was effective in TV debates but faced growing dissatisfaction with her leadership that led to annual leadership confidence votes in 2006 and her resignation before the vote.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Party_of_British_Columbia

Her replacement, Jane Sterk, makes the old Liberal borehorse, Herb Gray, look like Sarah Palin on speed. For the first time since 1996 (when they were 4 electoral districts short of a full slate), the BC Greens will not only not have a full slate of candidates, but are unlikely to come close. With seven weeks to go until the election they now have 40 candidates nominated. Sterk herself not only admits this but goes on to say they will focus on 4 ridings in the Victoria area, leaving some of the ridings where they previously had relatively strong showings on their own. 

http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/Greens+unusual+election+strategy+...

May's approach to the Labrador by-election smacks more of desperation than grand strategy to me. 

 

KenS

nicky wrote:

If Penashue were to win the by-election and subsequently be found guilty of fundraising and spending violations in the 2011 general election what would happen?

Would he then lose his seat or would his re-election in the by-election somehow avoid that?

I did not see nicky's question here. Strangely enough, I saw the identical wording by another 'person', elsewhere in the blogosphere. And I answered thus [edited of content specific to the site]:

Penashue only MIGHT [eventually] be barred from office if he was found guilty of the highest level of offense which requires PROOF in a court of willful or deliberate violation of the law.

That is a pretty high bar to clear for any case. And even if Penashue was convicted on such a count, the judge would not neccesarily bar him from holding office [for 5 years].

Practically speaking: not very likely. And even IF the pressing of the case goes in that idrection- the conclusion would not be for a VERY long time… could easily be after the 2015 election.

 

 As I understand it, and I think I do [finally] have it straightened out now:

If a legal case does grind along- Penashue having resigned will have no bearing on a court case itself, if this is not settled with a compliance agreement or plea bargaining to lesser charges where Penashue is not exposed to removal from office.

 

nicky

In 2011 the Conservatives declared $82,000 in election expenses (it was really at least $18,000 more than that), the Liberals $30,000 and the NDP $14,000 or only 16% of the limit.
These numbers suggest that the NDP could do much better iwith a fully funded by-election campaign, another reason why the party should participate fully.

Unionist

KenS wrote:

And even if Penashue was convicted on such a count, the judge would not neccesarily bar him from holding office [for 5 years].

Under the penalties section I quoted above, the judge has no say in the matter. If he's found guilty (and you're right, that means proof, intent, and court time), he's barred for 5 years, period - "in addition to" any penalty determined in court.

 

KenS

I think that is true. I'm not going to back to look again. [It isnt just that section which determines it.]

Whichever: judge discretion is still paramount. Because the judge after hearing the evidence decides what the violation is. The ones that will result in barring/removal from office, have the highest standards of proof.

If you have ever looked in on the unfolding of court proceedings over violations of this Act, it readily becomes apparent how difficult it is to PROVE wilful or deliberate violation. Its not like people go writing emails that say "here is the plan... and you do this and this and this to cover your tracks.... and".

Prooving beyond reasonable doubt of intent to commit murder is easier.

KenS

The sections of the Act under which offiical agent Bowers for sure, and probably Penashue, stand to be convicted, are stripped of looking at intent. They are called 'strict liability offences': the violations occured, your penalties are _____ .

In other words: the fact there were illegal contributions, and there was exceeding the spending limit, and convictions on those counts, definitely will not result in barring/removing Penashue.

Debater

Elizabeth May claims on Twitter today that she wants to work with both the Liberals and the NDP but that the NDP has rejected her offers so far.

Anyone know what she is referring to?

 

https://twitter.com/ElizabethMay/status/315905959438479360

Bluegreenblogger

If you want the best plain language analysis of Penashue offenses, and sanctions, you need look no further than this:

http://www.punditsguide.ca/2013/03/understanding-peter-penashues-revised...

 

Debater
Unionist

KenS wrote:

The sections of the Act under which offiical agent Bowers for sure, and probably Penashue, stand to be convicted, are stripped of looking at intent. They are called 'strict liability offences': the violations occured, your penalties are _____ .

In other words: the fact there were illegal contributions, and there was exceeding the spending limit, and convictions on those counts, definitely will not result in barring/removing Penashue.

Ok, I've read the "simple" pundits' guide thing, and I concede. You're right.

Why am I posting in a thread about Labrador anyway?

 

felixr

adma wrote:

felixr wrote:

The NDP needs to try and win every riding, if it is serious about governing (for all Canadians).

Or more properly, to appear as a credible voting option in every riding, even those it hasn't a realistic chance of winning.

The fact that they saved their deposit in all but two ridings in '11, and placed 2nd in those two remaining ridings, shows the way.

+1

jerrym

Stephen Maher, who broke the Robocalls scandal, has written an article on Peter Penashue, describing his change from "a radical to a yes-man".  Maher has known Penashue since 1989 when Penashue was "a cold-eyed radical, a native rabble-rouser ... trying to shut down the low-level flying training flights out of CFB Goose Bay, which enraged the non-native townspeople who depended on the base for their employment.

Like his mother, longtime activist Elizabeth Penashue, he believed passionately that the military had no right to be overflying Innu land, threatening the caribou herds that had always been at the heart of Innu life. ...

In 2008 he signed a deal - over the objections of his mother - to settle outstanding claims and develop a hydro dam on the Lower Churchill, which will mean $400 million in work for Innu companies. ...

Penashue's portfolio - intergovernmental affairs - is a joke, since Stephen Harper is his own intergovernmental affairs minister. A previous minister - Michael Chong - resigned after Harper announced his plan to recognize Quebec as a nation without having consulted with him. So Penashue kept his mouth shut, cashed his paycheques, showed up in the House, and did what he could for his long-neglected riding. It was embarrassing to see the obvious signs of over-coaching, and it seemed sad that a man of his ability was being micromanaged by the prime minister's flunkies."

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/short+trip+from+radical+Ottawa/8142703/...

 

 

Debater

NDP rejects calls to stand down in Labrador byelection

Mar 24, 2013

Federal New Democrats will not heed calls from the Green Party of Canada asking them not to run a candidate in the Labrador riding vacated by former Conservative cabinet minister Peter Penashue.

"If someone should stand down in this byelection it is Peter Penashue while Elections Canada completes its investigation," said NDP National Director Nathan Rotman in an email to CBC News on Sunday.

Green Party leader Elizabeth May announced on Saturday that the Greens would not be running a candidate in an upcoming Labrador byelection and urged the NDP to follow suit.

May said such co-operation would rally the progressive vote behind the Liberals and encourage proportional representation, in a statement released on Saturday.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2013/03/23/pol...

NorthReport

I like how the NDP stays on message:

Quote:
'If someone should stand down in this by-election it is Peter Penashue,' NDP says

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

"May said such co-operation would rally the progressive vote behind the Liberals and encourage proportional representation, in a statement released on Saturday."

This only applies if A.) there is actually "progressive" vote that goes to the Libs, and B.) that the Greens and the Libs both attract significant numbers of "progressive" voters. Given what actually happened in 2011 where the Lib vote went Conservative, NOT NDP, I think this is a very reasonable question to ask. It is clearly time to start addressing the frame of which Canadian party represents "progressives". Hint, its not the Libs or the Greens. This is simply a silly argument for the NDP to continue under this frame.

KenS

Bluegreenblogger wrote:

If you want the best plain language analysis of Penashue offenses, and sanctions, you need look no further than this:

http://www.punditsguide.ca/2013/03/understanding-peter-penashues-revised...

 

Unionist wrote:

Ok, I've read the "simple" pundits' guide thing..........

 

I agree with Unionist. The blog post is well done- including us contributing commenters if I do say so. And I guess it is plain language- with the BIG qualification that plain is not the right word.

And it is getting rather far from being a thread about an election in Labrador. Peneshue is not going to get removed, and little or virtually none of this will play DIRECTLY into the campaign.

But for those who want to follow the twists and turns arounds Penashue and the legal case, etc... I just posted more at the blogpost linked... and compared the case to the ongoing Del Meastro affair [spending limits, ineligible contributions, funneling corporate donations through individuals, kickbacks...], and the case that just came up of the SNC masked contributions through execs to at least one 2011 Cons campaign. 

nicky

Harry Borlase has won the NDP nomination.

Ippurigakko

Harry Borlase will be the NDP candidate for Labrador byelection. on twitter

 

Yay! :)

Debater

Yes, Peter Cowan of CBC Newfoundland and Alice Funke of Pundit's Guide are reporting that Hary Borlase is the NDP nominee.

NorthReport

 

Harry Borlase

Harry grew up in Happy Valley, Labrador and hasn't left the north for long ever since. Harry has a BA degree in Canadian Studies/Political Science from Mount Allison University, Canada. His honour's research was on language policy in the four Inuit regions of Canada. Following that, he worked for the University of the Arctic in Rovaniemi Finland, and most recently the Arctic Centre in their Arctic Graduate School. Harry remains active with the University of the Arctic and its programs, he's also been an APECS enthusiast since he joined in 2008, volunteering with their Field School activities. Harry is currently an MA student in Polar Law at the University of Akureyri in Iceland. His research interests are international cooperation, region-building and Arctic institutionalism with his thesis work looking at Arctic national strategies and their impacts on international governance in the region.

Debater

Borlase appears to have some impressive academic credentials when it comes to Northern & Arctic research, but as I suspected, the NDP has not been able to find an MHA or a high office holder to be its nominee.  I'm sure Borlase is a smart man, but how will he have the name recognition or connections in Labrador in order to compete with Peter Penashue (or Yvonne Jones)?

NorthReport

Borlase sounds like a great candidate!

 

My hunch is that he will be taking votes away from both the Libs and the Cons, and with perhaps enough support to win the riding for the NDP.

Debater

Why was the other candidate not chosen?  I think the other candidate had recently been elected to a Municipal town council in Labrador City.  Borlase seems to only be an academic from what I can tell, and appears to have no elected experience.

Debater

I've just heard that Former Liberal MP Todd Russell will announce tomorrow whether he is running in the Labrador by-election.

sherpa-finn

Debater: > Why was the other candidate not chosen?

Not absolutely sure in this case, but in other NDP campaigns I've seen its generally been because the winner got more votes. From what I can tell, the NDP doesn't seem to as keen as others on the inheritance / coronation approach to leadership selection.  Laughing

Brachina

Lack of political experience doesn't appear to bother you when it comes to Justin debater (and his time as a MP doesn't count (as he did nothing with it).

I don't know that whole story as to why him and not the other guy honestly, maybe the Harry was just better organized, although I'm shocked we have a candiate that fast honestly. I think it bides well as he can get started right away beating the Tory why the Liberals fiddle.

Brachina

Harry is more then an academic, he's a field researcher on the ground and in communities, not in some ivory tower.

Debater

Brachina, are you able to discuss a topic without always bringing Justin Trudeau into it?  This is about the Labrador by-election.  In order to win in a riding like Labrador, you have to be a big name who is well-known to the population, either as an elected official or a community leader.  I'm not insulting this young man - he seems like a talented researcher, and since I'm a bit of an academic geek myself I have no problem with people who like to study many topics and pursue degrees.

But in order to take on Peter Penashue, someone with experience and organization is needed.  And the Liberals aren't fiddling - Yvonne Jones has already declared her candidacy, and Todd Russell is making his decision tommorow.  If Russell wants to run, he and Jones will have a contested nomination.  If not, Jones will be the nominee.  Either way we will be off very soon.  But the point is that both Russell and Jones are already known in Labrador and have organizations ready to go.

Brachina

Debater wrote:

Elizabeth May claims on Twitter today that she wants to work with both the Liberals and the NDP but that the NDP has rejected her offers so far.

Anyone know what she is referring to?

 

https://twitter.com/ElizabethMay/status/315905959438479360

Maybe she can enlighten us as to her offer to the NDP. Because so far it appears to be the NDP stands aside in exchange for nothing.

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