Labrador By-Election

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mark_alfred

Arthur Cramer wrote:

"I was disappointed that Ms. Jones made such a hasty decision," Russell said. "I would have hoped that I would have had the liberty, the freedom to make my decision without that added consideration". What?

Just more Liberal infighting.  No surprise here.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Arthur you want a one party state as long as the party is the one you support, you just don't seem to believe in democracy. No one who disagrees with your politics has any right to even run and if they do then they should be judged on the basis of guilt by association.  Sounds pretty much like the attitude that Harper's minions have about anyone who is not a Conservative. Sorry you don't see it but I find that attitude just as reprehensible from the left as it is from the right.  If you believe in democracy then show some respect for others engaged in the democratic process, otherwise you are just debasing the political process itself.

So being a person of Metis ancestry is just another ethnicity to you.  Fortunately the Charter takes a different view and for very good reason.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

"So being a person of Metis ancestry is just another ethnicity to you.  Fortunately the Charter takes a different view and for very good reason."

This is getting really nuts. What I said is I see people as people. Period. I didn't say anything about respecting treaty rights, something in which I believe, or anything else. Stop trying to read in something that isn't there. I am Jewish and I know all about discrimination. It isn't a lesson I need to be given.

As to this silly one party state stuff, look, I don't like Liberals, period. I really don't know what to do when someone tells me that I want a single party state. This is about ideas. The Libs have horrible ones. I don't want them running anything. If that makes me a fascist, in your eyes, there's nothing I can do about it, and frankly, there's nothing about that position with which I care. You can think whatever you want. I am a partisan. Big deal. I want my guys to win and the other guys to lose. Big deal.

I say it again, whatever problem you have, it isn't with me. Think whatever you want. I give up.

janfromthebruce

yes, the Red/Green gong show unfolded. oh well, and I did ask the question about riding associations. And I did forget there were not riding associations in parts of Quebec.

Hopefully there wasn't any problems doing with Liberal paperwork with Elections Canada. That optics would not be good.

Brachina

I actually don't blame Jones, as I said before Russel doesn't own the riding, if he wanted it, he should have fought for it. Also the NDP hsd to move fast because the God damn Tories are already on the move. The Liberals are ready for this fight, but the NDP is.

I find it ironic that had we followed May's advice we'd have handed the riding to the Tories on a silver plate.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

This riding is going to be a test for both the Liberals and NDP.  It could be a winnable riding for either of them especially if Penashue's support tanks because of the electoral fraud. I am surprised that the Liberals would be in such disarray in a riding they have held and only lost by a few votes last time. I wonder if that is because when Todd left so did the people who were running the riding association and since then no body has taken their places given the election seemed a long ways off.

Brachina

Could be. The NDP may have lucked out because thier was such a focus on building riding associations after winning all the riding without one in 2011, plus having a real leadership race, so we happened to be more perpared.

Plus having someone who could organize so quickly and has a talent for social media and all that. If the NDP does win it, I suspect even more effort will be placed on building riding associations.

Its also a bonus for the Newfoundland NDP of course.

I also suspect that the riding will be seeing alot of Ryan Cleary and Jack Harris.

JKR

Arthur Cramer wrote:
This is getting really nuts. What I said is I see people as people. Period.

It sounds to me like you also said earlier that you think anyone who runs as a Liberal is automatically a contemptible person no matter what their personal characteristics are. If the Liberal party's political ideology was abhorrent, I could understand taking such a stance. If someone represents an abhorrent party such as a racial supremacist party or a fascist party, it would be fair to dismiss them automatically as being a contemptible person but even then it would be possible to consider the possibility that their belonging to such an abhorrent party could be the result of naïveté. 

The Liberal Party is a centrist party that attracts people from right across the political spectrum so it seems unjustified to automatically dismiss someone just on the basis of running under the Liberal banner. I would actually say the same for the Conservatives. A person running under the Conservstive banner is not automatically a contemptible person. If people like Joe Clark or Bill Davis ran for the Conservatives I would not consider them to be contemptible.

The question here seems to come down to: "what is a Liberal?" my view is that a Liberal is a political centrist. I believe Canada should move to the left and establish a society more similar to places like Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark, and the Netherlands so I favour the New Democrats but at the same time I think Liberals in good faith believe that centrism is the best political approach for Canada just as Conservatives believe in good faith that moving to the right is the best approach for Canada.

If we allow politics to be mostly about hating and beating others then even when our side wins, hate will still abide and create a backlash against our side and it will precipitate our downfall. The communists discovered the hard way that hate with good intentions leads to trouble.

Jack Layton said it best:

Quote:
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.

mark_alfred

Layton also said "don't let them tell you it can't be done."  Often Liberal supporters engage in stating the NDP can never win, advocating so-called "strategic-voting".  Utter nonsense that I do find irritating.  I'm sure the NDP can take Labrador.

Ippurigakko

And someone ask Harry about labrador should vote liberal beat Cons, vote ABC

and he replied in his wordpress

Hi Everyone, thanks for your comments! Happy this has started in full force and excited to see what’s to come. Gordon, thanks for your concern. Although I understand the merits of cooperating in such a case like this, I fully feel that both parties (NDP and Liberals) have differing platforms to offer Labradorians and it should be up to the voters to decide which party best represents their interests.

 

so yeah

 

 

mark_alfred

Ippurigakko wrote:

And someone ask Harry about labrador should vote liberal beat Cons, vote ABC

and he replied in his wordpress

Hi Everyone, thanks for your comments! Happy this has started in full force and excited to see what’s to come. Gordon, thanks for your concern. Although I understand the merits of cooperating in such a case like this, I fully feel that both parties (NDP and Liberals) have differing platforms to offer Labradorians and it should be up to the voters to decide which party best represents their interests.

 

so yeah

Excellent.

Stockholm

Tom Mulcair is apparently flying to Labrador City TOMORROW to launch the NDP campaign!

NorthReport

Thanks very much for this Stock.

The last 2 days have provided superb federal politics news for the riding of Labrador.

I was hoping Mulcair would be front and centre in the campaign so I am delighted to hear this.

Perhaps May can now call on the Liberals to not contest the riding to help the NDP defeat the Cons.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

mark_alfred wrote:

Layton also said "don't let them tell you it can't be done."  Often Liberal supporters engage in stating the NDP can never win, advocating so-called "strategic-voting".  Utter nonsense that I do find irritating.  I'm sure the NDP can take Labrador.

Sorry, but I have to respond to this. I was responding to the insuation that I harboured ill will to say the least towards indigenous candidates because they were indiginous. I didn't bring that up, and I didn't write anything that suggested that. I simply said I heard the guy on CBC and I didn't believe him. He simply sounded like a typical Lib politician. And yes, I take people as people when we are talking about this kind of thing. I don't care if a guy is a Lib because of who he is, I don't have use for Libs BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY BELIVE, and WHAT THEY DO IN GOVERNANCE! I am NOT going to apologize for this.

This is not my problem and I am getting tired of having this thrown in my face in one way or another, over and over. I have been trying to stay away from this but it keeps coming back. Don't quote Jack Layton back to me; I'm no Jack Layton, never said I was, and I hold a grudge. I didn't used to, but I do now. The NDP has a real chance now and if the LPC dupes Canadians again, I feel it would almost be too much to bear.

I am not in charge of anything, and aside from the venue, I don't even come into contact with many Libs or Tories either, for that matter. I don't hang around with people like that, because I can't tolerate their moral view of the world. I believe in honesty, loyalty, intergriy, courage, duty and kindness. It affects how I look at the world. Sure it might be better to have more non NDP friends, but I don't, and that is how it is.

Its not MY problem. And I DON'T see it as one. Period!

Debater

Jones calls Penashue "the weakest Member of Parliament" she's ever seen

 

http://www.thelabradorian.ca/News/2013-03-25/article-3207204/The-battle-...

JKR

Arthur Cramer wrote:
I believe in honesty, loyalty, intergriy, courage, duty and kindness. It affects how I look at the world. Sure it might be better to have more non NDP friends, but I don't, and that is how it is.

Your beliefs and support for the NDP are great and commendable and a positive contribution to Canada and beyond. Without social democrats like yourself we wouldn't already have our current Medicare, CPP, OAS, social housing, public education, public transportation, public child care, etc... and better things are yet to come if more people share your belief in the common and collective good. There's a lot to be positive about. You might be more like Jack Layton than you think.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Well, I think I did it again. Got way too over emotional. Sorry to everyone. Thanks for your very kind comments JKR and to mark_alfred, I remain a huge fan of yours and all that you write. I apologize for any offense offered. It wasn't my intention.

KenS

kropotkin1951 wrote:

This riding is going to be a test for both the Liberals and NDP.  It could be a winnable riding for either of them especially if Penashue's support tanks because of the electoral fraud. I am surprised that the Liberals would be in such disarray in a riding they have held and only lost by a few votes last time. I wonder if that is because when Todd left so did the people who were running the riding association and since then no body has taken their places given the election seemed a long ways off.

It kind of looks like the organization may alraedy have been very thin when Todd was the incumbent. That happens quite often. Organizationaly strong MPs make sure it doesnt. The Liberal riding association may have been like that for a long time- that Todd essentially inherited winning more or less by default.

Consistent with that explanation is how little money his campaign spent- while they would have known almost from the beginning they were in for a battle and that the Cons would be counted on to have [more like 'get'] deep pockers. There would be little to get from the central campaign.... and if they had no real organization, they would not be able to buckle down and make sure they got the contributions they needed.

Robo

Brachina wrote:
Could be. The NDP may have lucked out because thier was such a focus on building riding associations after winning all the riding without one in 2011, plus having a real leadership race, so we happened to be more perpared. Plus having someone who could organize so quickly and has a talent for social media and all that. ...

It's strange that Elizabeth May and others are proposing the NDP stand down because of the supposed strength of the local Liberal Party. On September 21/12, the Labrador Liberal Riding Association was deregistered by Elections Canada -- they couldn't even keep their paperwork in order to remain a recognised party at the local level. That is hardly the kind of organization that can claim to be "the favourite"...

janfromthebruce

Debater wrote:

Jones calls Penashue "the weakest Member of Parliament" she's ever seen

 

http://www.thelabradorian.ca/News/2013-03-25/article-3207204/The-battle-...

Jones might want to consider that she wants voters who previously supported Penashue (a Metis) to support her, a white woman (I assume but I may be wrong). I wonder if that is a great strategy, attack this MP personally.

Anyway, I prefer the upbeat NDP candidate who is off and running.

NorthReport

Agreed and well said Jan.

jerrym

The NDP is getting off the ground fast in this by-election with Harry Borlase's nomination Sunday and Tom Mulcair's visit Tuesday, which will help them in getting their message out in such a sprawling riding. 

 

"Federal NDP leader Tom Mulcair will visit Labrador on Tuesday to help boost the profile of the party’s candidate for an upcoming byelection in the district.

Mulcair will join Harry Borlase in Labrador City, where they will host a public meeting in the community Tuesday evening."

http://www.thetelegram.com/News/Local/2013-03-25/article-3207384/Federal...

jerrym

Debater wrote:

Harry Borlase is being interviewed now on CBC Labrador.  He's being asked by Tony Dawson why he's been living away from Labrador in the Ottawa area and only deciding to move back to Labrador now.

http://www.cbc.ca/labradormorning/

 

I would like to thank Debater for letting us know about the CBC interview of Harry. I thought Harry did a great job of handling the question of why he has been living away from Labrador and demonstrating his keen interest in and extensive knowledge of Labrador and its issues in a very effective speaking style. 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Penashue is Innu and Russell, the former MP, is Metis. 

Brachina

Arthur Cramer wrote:

mark_alfred wrote:

Layton also said "don't let them tell you it can't be done."  Often Liberal supporters engage in stating the NDP can never win, advocating so-called "strategic-voting".  Utter nonsense that I do find irritating.  I'm sure the NDP can take Labrador.

Sorry, but I have to respond to this. I was responding to the insuation that I harboured ill will to say the least towards indigenous candidates because they were indiginous. I didn't bring that up, and I didn't write anything that suggested that. I simply said I heard the guy on CBC and I didn't believe him. He simply sounded like a typical Lib politician. And yes, I take people as people when we are talking about this kind of thing. I don't care if a guy is a Lib because of who he is, I don't have use for Libs BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY BELIVE, and WHAT THEY DO IN GOVERNANCE! I am NOT going to apologize for this.

This is not my problem and I am getting tired of having this thrown in my face in one way or another, over and over. I have been trying to stay away from this but it keeps coming back. Don't quote Jack Layton back to me; I'm no Jack Layton, never said I was, and I hold a grudge. I didn't used to, but I do now. The NDP has a real chance now and if the LPC dupes Canadians again, I feel it would almost be too much to bear.

I am not in charge of anything, and aside from the venue, I don't even come into contact with many Libs or Tories either, for that matter. I don't hang around with people like that, because I can't tolerate their moral view of the world. I believe in honesty, loyalty, intergriy, courage, duty and kindness. It affects how I look at the world. Sure it might be better to have more non NDP friends, but I don't, and that is how it is.

Its not MY problem. And I DON'T see it as one. Period!

I know your not a racist AC and any insinustion that you are is absolutely BS. Your the kind of guy that wears his heart on his sleeve and its obvious that you care about people of all races.

I think some people in this thread owe you an apology.

Anyways its great to hear the NDP is already onto a great start while Liberal and sputter

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

I don't see race sounds like a progressive thing to say, I used to fall into that trap but years ago Big City Girl (aka Maysie) helped me see the inadequacy of that viewpoint. I no longer default to race is irrelevant like I did years ago. Race is important especially when one is talking about aboriginal people in this country, it matters a lot. "You disrespect people’s cultural boundaries and erase their identities in your desire to “not see color”"

Thanks Maysie.

And no Arthur is not a racist he is just a grumpy old man who hates liberals and that hate colours his view of the worth of other people. However when he lets that hate of liberals colour his views about a Metis politician then that is not a progressive viewpoint.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TayTNGQYqVU

http://lifeandlimabeans.wordpress.com/2012/02/15/what-it-means-when-some...

jjuares

kropotkin1951 wrote:

 

And no Arthur is not a racist he is just a grumpy old man who hates liberals and that hate colours his view of the worth of other people. However when he lets that hate of liberals colour his views about a Metis politician then that is not a progressive viewpoint.

I have also seen you describe two different posts from two different contributors as being "vile". That is a particularly nasty word. And now AC is just a grumpy old man.

hmmmmmmmmmmmm 

Debater

Robo wrote:

Brachina wrote:
Could be. The NDP may have lucked out because thier was such a focus on building riding associations after winning all the riding without one in 2011, plus having a real leadership race, so we happened to be more perpared. Plus having someone who could organize so quickly and has a talent for social media and all that. ...

It's strange that Elizabeth May and others are proposing the NDP stand down because of the supposed strength of the local Liberal Party. On September 21/12, the Labrador Liberal Riding Association was deregistered by Elections Canada -- they couldn't even keep their paperwork in order to remain a recognised party at the local level. That is hardly the kind of organization that can claim to be "the favourite"...

You forgot to mention that the new Labrador Liberal Riding Association was registered with Elections Canada earlier this month, so the LPC does have one.

Yes, the old one kind of disbanded when Todd Russell lost in 2011 and they didn't assume there would be another election until 2015.  But earlier this month when Penashue resigned they got reorganized again and Yvonne Jones has been organizing for a couple of weeks already.  There have been Liberal operatives working in Labrador since Penashue stepped down.

Island Red

Debater wrote:

Robo wrote:

There have been Liberal operatives working in Labrador since Penashue stepped down.


They arrived igcognito (standard practicre fgor Liberal "operatives") and, so as not to instill panic amongst the locals, they remain undercover to this day. Unfortunately, this crack team proved incapable of preventing Yvonne Jones from publicly humiliating their popular former Liberal MP.

KenS

I missed that post about the deregistration of the Liberal riidng association. That's a hoot, and it confirms what I was suggesting last night in post #361.

And your rationalization Debater about that deregistration.... gold star for creativity.

And as I write, I see someone has already beat me to commending your joke about the 'Liberal operatives'.

Must have been realy busy at that undercover work, that they did not have time to make sure the riding association at least maintained the registration. Tough work, calling the people last listed as executive members, calling Elections Canada to check the status of paperwork, rounding up two or three people to make sure the paper shell at least stays together.

 

KenS

A riding association does not just 'kind of disband'- least of all where you until recently held the seat.

Elections Canada is really lenient about the requisite paperwork being kept up. If after several deadlines pass with no paperwork, it means no one is around. It also meant there were not even any 'Liberal operatives' in Ottawa, let alone Labrador, making sure that the bare minimums were in order.

KenS

So the Liberal party goes into this with NO ground organization, and with bad blood between the presumed candidate and the local activists last involved.

Remind me again why it is the NDP that should stand aside and make this a two way race?

nicky

Debater, you seem to have some knowledge of what is going on in Labrador. I would be interested if you could give us, without posturing or spin, your understanding of the rift between Todd Russell and Yvonne Jones.

janfromthebruce

Riding associations are or should not be mere "election machines". I've been a member of my local riding association for over 15 years, and they have regular meetings, and do events in the community. We reachout to our members. Oh, and this is a rural riding. 

So for a riding organization, where the seat was held previously by a Liberal must have been pretty inactive between elections and disengaged with their members, unless of course they really didn't have "members".

I am thinking that the infrastructure went dorment a long time ago, and there is no "local".

KenS

Right.

And if you cannot / do not 'do the right thing' of have regular meetings... you are not required to do even that much to keep up the EDA registration. That only requires one or two people every year [or every two years even] making sure the i's are dotted. Even that little bit not happening, or barely happening, is common where a party's EDA has not in recent memory been in the running. In the cases where there had been some degree of organization [let alone an incumbent MP], it means that organization has been comatose for some time.

The LPC organizers will have plenty of names of people to start calling to pull together an organization. But that is no more than what the NDP has, with the NDP having a lot less to sort out before getting going.

nicky
Debater

KenS wrote:

So the Liberal party goes into this with NO ground organization, and with bad blood between the presumed candidate and the local activists last involved.

Remind me again why it is the NDP that should stand aside and make this a two way race?

I never said the NDP should stand aside - that's what Elizabeth May said.  I am not Elizabeth May.  Please do not confuse me with her! Smile

And the Liberals do have a ground organization in Labrador.  Btw, one of the people who reported that the Liberals were already working in Labrador was Conservative strategist and Newfoundlander Tim Powers.

You're also forgetting that Yvonne Jones has her own organization of volunteers and fundraisers from her provincial staff which she will use for her federal campaign.  The point is that the Liberals have an MHA who has been there since 1996 and DOES have ground operations in the province.  She hasn't been living in the Gatineau area outside the province for the past several years.  Wink

KenS

Right. Yvonne Jones organization does certuianly count. That and some elements for the Liberals.

Ditto for some elements the NDP has.

But that doesnt change that the federal riding organization was recently dead, and must have been fairly dormant even before Russel lost. If you know have some information showing otherwise, say so.

Otherwise, the Liberals are just like the NDP: they have to pull together an organization. Presumably they have somewhat more people and bits 'lying about'- but that does not make them categorically in better shape. And against that- they have to deal with the bad blood.

I've been genuinley curious about that too. These things happen in politics. But there isnt any visible basis to this either. So do you know what it is based on/in?

Brachina

At the end of the day time will tell

Btw because the bielection has not been called yet, does that mean that there are no spending limits till it is?

janfromthebruce

Well Ken, I am thinking that the NDP may have a lot more structure in place, because their riding association was up and running. If one thinks about who has been running the EDA for them, and basically walked away and couldn't be bothered to do anything about the paperwork, one would wonder about how that or those relationships ended.

Debater

The NDP candidate is unknown, Jan.  You didn't mention that in your analysis.  By contrast, the Liberal candidate has been an MHA since 1996 who was recently elected again with 70% of the vote.

I'm not predicting a Liberal win.  I don't know what will happen.  But the odds are it will be either a Liberal or Conservative who wins Labrador.  And let's admit we all have our own biases here in what we want to see happen.

Btw, an interesting historical note is that Labrador has never had a female MP before.  While I know you are rooting for the NDP, I assume you would be proud of Yvonne Jones if she were to become the first woman MP in Labrador's history, yes? Smile

Debater

Brachina wrote:
At the end of the day time will tell Btw because the bielection has not been called yet, does that mean that there are no spending limits till it is?

That is correct.  The are no spending limits in the Pre-Writ period - one of the holes in our election spending laws.  That is why the Conservatives with their extra $ have had an advantage over the Liberals & NDP prior to the past several elections.

Ippurigakko

Harry Borlase grow up in Nain and Happy Valley-Goose Bay (Nunatsiavut region)

Inuit voters going to Harry Borlase from Todd Russell because they dont know Yvonne Jones.

and Labrador City-Wabush (Labrador West) is strong NDP.

Ippurigakko
Debater

Is Harry Borlase of Inuit background?

Ippurigakko

No. Dont matter what his background, just because his platform is most Inuit's interests.

Stockholm

I think the Liberals would KILL to have a candidate of the calibre of Harry Borlase. Instead they are stuck with an old retread who the previous Liberal MP for Labrador apparently hates.

KenS

The pre-writ spening by the Conservatives probably isnt going to amount to all that much- because the writ will drop soon, and because the sky is the limit on spending during a by-election campaign writ period.

The national parties are allowed to spend a lot, on top of the regular local campaign spending cap. And if they want to spend even more, they don't have to count the salaries of existing staff, and of a lot of other resources supplied from outside the riding.

pebbles

Stockholm wrote:

The former Liberal MP for Labrador Todd Russell only needs to be an MP for another 22 days and he qualifies for a lifelong pension. He probably wants to run in the byelection just to get in his 22 days so he can then goof off for the rest of his term.

I can think of another, previously short-term MP from NL, who got back into federal politics, and was accused of doing so, by his detractors, because he only wanted to collect his pension.

Might have heard of him.

Guy named Jack Harris.

pebbles

Stockholm wrote:

BTW. when Penashue loses the byelection, you can bet your sweet patootie that Harper will appoint him to the Senate so he can earn $150k/year for the rest of his life in exchange for doing absolutely NOTHING!

To the Senate? From which province? Unless someone keels over, there's no vacancy coming up in NL until after the 2015 election.

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