layton is afraid of an election

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MightyAC MightyAC's picture

Ahh, the perfect anti-election catch phrase:

Jack Russell (Layton) - Harper's bitch

Bookish Agrarian

MightyAC wrote:

Ahh, the perfect anti-election catch phrase:

Jack Russell (Layton) - Harper's bitch

Bye now

oldgoat

MightyAC, there's no rule that anyone here has to be a Layton supporter, but a little more thoughtful analysis and a lot less childish pointless vitriol will improve both this thread and your chances of staying here.

janfromthebruce

oldgoat must have been talking about me - an intelligent poster and all - after closing this thread, don't you think?Laughing

 

"There's a similar thread going here, although it's not going well.  Maybe it just needs a few more intelligent posters."

oldgoat

I was indeed jan.  And on further reflection, I've just removed one less than intelligent poster.

janfromthebruce

thank you oldgoat - I knew you would not disappoint me. Kiss

remind remind's picture

MightyAC wrote:
I'm not a Grit or a Dipper just a free agent that cares about the environment, ethics and human rights.

Really? One would never know that from this comment of yours:

Quote:
Jack Russell (Layton) - Harper's bitch

It seems you have no idea what ethics and human rights are all about.

And as you are quite obviously a representative of the Liberal Party machine, we can safely presume that its lack of human rights knowlege and ethics is about equivalent to yours.

 

remind remind's picture

Oh I wrote that before the banning , oops.

Bookish Agrarian

oldgoat wrote:

I was indeed jan.  And on further reflection, I've just removed one less than intelligent poster.

 

Does that mean the use of homophobic and mysoginist language in post 51?

janfromthebruce

another intelligent poster appears - thanks remind.

MUN Prof. MUN Prof.'s picture

As much as I disagree with many of you often, I believe much of what people say here is pretty reasonable and respectful (most of it), and I enjoy coming here to learn from you.

I do wish the moderation could somehow be more vigilant at times like these (i.e., election time, when Liberals acting like toddlers) when partisan trolls of [insert polite phrase for "lesser intellect"] join Babble to spew rather than argue.

 

MUN Prof. MUN Prof.'s picture

double post

 

SCB4

It is beginning to look like Harper is the one who will be forcing an election

 

Tories Rebuff Talks with NDP

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/tories-rebuff-talks-with-ndp/article1288458

/

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

 The NDP is not getting in the Tub with Harper-- this is a short term arrangement since the party will not force an election on those things-- that said Layton's comments make it clear this is short term.

That's good to hear. Layton is more experienced and a lot smarter than some folks give him credit for.

janfromthebruce

Stick to the issues and not the personalities.

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

SCB4 wrote:

It is beginning to look like Harper is the one who will be forcing an election

 

Tories Rebuff Talks with NDP

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/tories-rebuff-talks-with-ndp/article1288458

/

I've said all along the Conservatives could not be trusted, this just reinforces my belief.

remind remind's picture

Seems like the media in Canada is trying to have it all ways, all at once.

First, they try to portray the NDP as supporting Harper, then they try to portray Harper as assisting, and wanting to work, with the NDP, by comments yesterday about Harper dropping the phrase "socialists" when referring to the NDP, now they are stating Harper is ignoring the NDP.

It all appears to be manufactured BS, in order to defame the NDP, no matter what. They are using a scatter gun approach, hoping that something will stick in people's minds, in order to discredit the NDP.

 

 

Debater

I definitely think that one of the main reasons the NDP is considering supporting Harper this week is because it is afraid to have an election right now.  The NDP has had low poll numbers lately just as the journalists said on Power Play a few nights ago.

Sean in Ottawa

It is not clear what anybody wants because the people do not want an election-- Layton came out saying that Harper might provoke an election-- it may well be that we are going to have one and all this is about who will be blamed.

The Globe is carrying a story saying the NDP is saying its emails are not being answered-- either the Cons are trying to provoke an election or the NDP actually does want one but does not want to be seen as the cause. Maybe all parties want an election, the people don't and so all parties are pretending they don't want one.

The comparisons between the NDP musing about one vote for the government to a Liberal string of 79 votes is remarkable especially considering what the votes were/are on.

It is not clear how well off or how poor the NDP is given we are coming out of summer-- as others have said wait for the polls after the election call before deciding who is in trouble

remind remind's picture

Debator wrote:
I definitely think that one of the main reasons the NDP is considering supporting Harper this week is because it is afraid to have an election right now.  The NDP has had low poll numbers lately just as the journalists said on Power Play a few nights ago.

You are projecting Liberal sentiments on the NDP. As we all know,  the Liberals voted 79 times with Harper because they were afraid of an election, based upon their low poll numbers.

Also Norman Spector weighs in on this too:

Quote:
Blame Harper for an Election

According to Ipsos-Reid, a majority of Canadians don’t think we need an election, would blame Michael Ignatieff if we have one and would vote against the Liberals if he forces the issue. Perhaps. However, based on yesterday’s developments, if the Conservative government is defeated in the next while, there will be one person and only one person to blame: Stephen Harper.

Let there be no doubt: Jack Layton is willing to keep the government alive, ostensibly to help the unemployed. And, as Jeffrey Simpson points out, it won’t take much on Mr. Harper’s part. Which pretty much describes what he was prepared to offer the NDP yesterday, and how in Question Period he positioned the EI reforms that his minister had announced earlier in the day.

Perhaps Mr. Harper’s internal polls, like the latest Ipsos-Reid, show him in majority territory, the NDP at their lowest since the last election and the Liberals trailing the Conservatives in Ontario by ten points. And maybe he’s hot to trot after looking at the huge gap between him and Mr. Ignatieff on “leadership” in the latest Nanos poll. In other words, perhaps Mr. Harper wants an election right now, as long as he’s not blamed for it.

Also of note, it seems that the powers that be controlling the Liberals and Cons, are trying to shut the NDP out by any means possible, even to the point of buying the ad agency that the NDP used in QC, and said agency now refusing to do any ad work for them.

 

MUN Prof. MUN Prof.'s picture

Debater wrote:

I definitely think that one of the main reasons the NDP is considering supporting Harper this week is because it is afraid to have an election right now.  The NDP has had low poll numbers lately just as the journalists said on Power Play a few nights ago.

 

Polls also show that the average person (babblers and trolls not included) doesn't want an election right now. I'd like to take this government out myself, but people are sick of elections and their price tag.

Skinny Dipper

The NDP is making a good move by supporting the Conservatives.  This will give the party time to define itself to the general public for the next election.

While the Liberals did vote with the Conservatives 79 times, the public will probably not care about that in the next election.

The NDP needs to figure out ways to differentiate itself from the Liberal and Green parties and make itself relevant.  As I have mentioned several times on other boards and blogsites, the media will probably define the next election as the battle of the titans: Harper and Ignatieff.  It the NDP can't define itself, then it will only be delaying the inevitable loss of seats in the next election.

Caissa

Why does the price tag keep getting metioned re. elections? We could save a ton of money by banning elections. As long as we are going to have a responsible government model of parliamentary government, elections at irregular and sometime frequent times, is just part and parcel of the system.

Now if you want to move to a USian style republican system...

janfromthebruce

Debater wrote:

I definitely think that one of the main reasons the NDP is considering supporting Harper this week is because it is afraid to have an election right now.  The NDP has had low poll numbers lately just as the journalists said on Power Play a few nights ago.

The NDP IS supporting the issue rather than the personalities. NDP would not be supporting either horse, as those 2 trigger an election.

I say stand aside and let the liberalcon parties take the heat for the election - they are both showing they don't want to make parliament work.

remind remind's picture

The price tag keeps getting mentioned, caissa, because Canadian taxpayers have spent over a billion dollars in the last 5 years on elections,  so that the Liberals and Cons can jockey for position at the trough, and that  amount sure as hell could be used for public initiatives, not self serving political party initiatives.

madmax

Debater wrote:

I definitely think that one of the main reasons the NDP is considering supporting Harper this week is because it is afraid to have an election right now.  The NDP has had low poll numbers lately just as the journalists said on Power Play a few nights ago.

And just what is a "High" polling number for the NDP?  In one week the NDP had a polling number of 19% and 14%. These are traditional numbers and will remain so come an election. The NDP is never "afraid" to have an election, unlike the LPC, the NDP is always at high risk during any election.  

 

George Victor

The mighty AC was a rather colourful addition to the anti-Layton mob - just a little more direct, up front, understandable in a discussion about party politics carried on by those who have risen above the  tug and struggle for the allegiance of the Great Unread in a cultural  climate dominated by right-wing media.  Put out another appeal for intelligent input here, oldgoat. Quick.

remind remind's picture

Ya we all know that the NDP is never afraid of an election, madmax, however, some do like projecting their own fears upon the NDP, either on purpose, or in a state of unknowing.

Aaron.Broad

Let me lay it all out:

  • Layton doesn't have candidates or funding in place, but is not afraid of a run otherwise
  • Bloc is truly scared, but thinks it will look worse if left holding the bag... so might prop the CPC up until mid fall but no longer
  • Liberals see themselves as the default alternative, in an alternative selecting election season, and are eager to go anytime

How the CPC sees it in public, and therefor how the FCM sees it:

  • Economy is rebounding and this will reflect good on Harper
  • Itching for a fight anytime, anyplace, but its not the right time for Canada to stage a fight

Reality, and why both the CPC, Liberals, NDP, and Bloc know its an alternative selecting election season:

  • Economy is not rebounding, its in a plateau before another even larger drop, which could hit anytime between now and November
  • The only thing currently keeping it on life support is massive quantitative easing, combined with massive government spending
  • However, neither of these measures... the neo-keynsianism, or the running the printing presses all day and night, can make the Chinese pay off their derivatives, the American banks solvent, the US remain the dominant currency, or the Chinese and the Americans keep trading like its 2007... and in fact mostly act against these going forward
  • The American consumer is broke, and as he/she was the engine driving this whole crazy forever expansion train, unless put on permanent 50K a year welfare, and the Chinese willing to loan them money to do that we're going into a fundamental restructuring of the world economy.. and those are never smooth
  • It might lead to a new golden era as some have predicted, it might lead to WW3, but this fall its leading to many many changes in governments... including here in Canada
  • I'm not sure Harper understands all this, but the other 3 parties definitely do, and will be at pains to explain it to him come November 18ish

madmax

Hello Aaron

Your post is a nice addition to the thread.

 

remind remind's picture

First of all, apparently you do not read people's posts rebutting your contentions.

It is a 20 week extension the NDP will support, as long as there is more stuff, not a 5 week one.

Secondly, Ignatieff supports HST. And the Liberals have a 79 vote history of being yellow bellies. And the banks told Iggy not to force an election in June.

Thridly, the NDP numbers  are about exactly what they have been all along.

Stockholm

I beg your pardon? can you rewrite all of that in plain English?

remind remind's picture

Think it is pretty clear, not sure how I could rewrite it in plainer english

mybabble

The economy has tanked and expect serious job loses in the coming months and elections aren't called because you can afford to shop for a new prime minister but because you can't afford not to with 60 billion in debt and no real job creation and a widing gap between working class and the wealthy. And lets not even get on the environment.   

And a couple hundred dollars back on home reno and future shop purchases is not saving the economy or creating any real employment except for a few part-time construction jobs and handing over your hard earned tax dollars to foreign investors is just more insanity as banks reap record profits while taxpayers pick up bill of 75 Billion dollar bailout as interest rates stay at all time low.  Now if that is a sign of lies and more lies to come then I don't know what is as whats the 5weeks extension going do for Canadians when there is no real jobs.

With NDP's numbers so low the leader better give his head a shake as first the very best the NDP are going to do is be a healthy Oppostion not a weak kneed yellow bellied socialist leader who could care less about the people but more about his chances in the next election and sell his voters short.   If Layton isn't carefull he could wipe the Federal NDP off the face of the Canadian Political Map.  I've seen it happen before only it was the other side of the coin and it was the Conservatives who almost found themselves a forgotten party as Canadians were fed up with the lies.  Its just a question of time before Harper's lies catch up with him as Canadians start to feel the pain of being in a recession without any real strategies to help the average Canadian while the federal deficit continues to climb into 3 digits.

With all Harper's magic on the economy why all the big changes to EI if economy has recovered with all those wonderful part-time low paying jobs? Would think there would be no need with all that job creation the Conservatives are talking about.  Did you know another 10,000 Canadian jobs were lost yesterday.  Expect the trend to continue.

 

A fall election "Will Kill Bill C-15".

 

KenS

Read this article [not just the title]:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/bloc-to-prop-up-tories-averting-election-for-now/article1288458/

Lets see, the Bloc has already said that it will vote for the supply motion Friday. And the NDP is still sounding the same: leaning towards voting for the motion.

NDP also uses its 'media window' time to talk about how the Conservatives do not appear to be playing ball.

Sounds a lot more consistent with the NDP frame its position around what most people want ['we're trying our damndest to make Parliament work'], and not consistent with the meme that Layton and the NDP are desperate to avoid an election.

mybabble

remind wrote:

First of all, apparently you do not read people's posts rebutting your contentions.

It is a 20 week extension the NDP will support, as long as there is more stuff, not a 5 week one.

Secondly, Ignatieff supports HST. And the Liberals have a 79 vote history of being yellow bellies. And the banks told Iggy not to force an election in June.

Thridly, the NDP numbers  are about exactly what they have been all along.

 

 

 

No I hadn't read the posts I was reading the article where 5 weeks was added to ei, 20 weeks well that is a great deal better than I first read and its what happens when you read articles and there are varying views all over the place.

And the NDP has never recovered from the last round with Harper's government and if anything the Iggie's talks of a fall election will help put food on the plates of workers in need of jobs.   I'm glad to hear NDP leader taking a stand for Canadians as article I read had said he sold Canadians out.

I hope the NDP leader stands firm on his request for the 20 weeks as it is much needed and other much needed benefits.

Wasn't it Harper that pointed out the Liberals were one of those socialist parties, you know the type into helping people, where the Conservatives are into helping big business I guess.  And so far all big business can come up with is helping itself to a greater number of Canadians tax dollars.  Dosen't add up.

I wasn't sure on the Liberals stand on the HST nor the NDP or the Bloc but one thing I know is Harper is the creator of a tax that is going to cause further harm down the line especially since we are in a recession.

 

 http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/08/25/layton-and-harper-to-meet-oh-it-s-so-exciting.aspx

 

mybabble

KenS wrote:

Read this article [not just the title]:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/bloc-to-prop-up-tories-averting-election-for-now/article1288458/

Lets see, the Bloc has already said that it will vote for the supply motion Friday. And the NDP is still sounding the same: leaning towards voting for the motion.

NDP also uses its 'media window' time to talk about how the Conservatives do not appear to be playing ball.

Sounds a lot more consistent with the NDP frame its position around what most people want ['we're trying our damndest to make Parliament work'], and not consistent with the meme that Layton and the NDP are desperate to avoid an election.

Even that gets twisted as Harper says to Layton I have no back door deals for the party leader making it personal rather than much needed EI benefits.   Will Harper give Canadians the hand up they need or is that kinda help reserved for corporate welfare?  I was surprised and disapointed when it appeared NDP was taking a back seat and here Layton was doing his best to work a plan for unemployed Canadians.  Good on his party.

Stockholm

remind wrote:

Think it is pretty clear, not sure how I could rewrite it in plainer english

Sorry remind, i was referring to "mybabble's" incoherent stream of consciousness not to you. Ou and I may disagree from time to time, but I can almost always understand what you're trying to say - whether I agfree with it or not.

remind remind's picture

The NDP bill on EI that the NDP  put forth in June,  would also shorten the threshhold to 360 hours.  Iggy was trying to obscure the Bill with all his rhetoric  and going for the "blue ribbon panel". So while Iggy was playing games with the unemployed, and stating that he thinks it is okay to shaft poor Canadians with the HST, the NDP were actually trying to do something for those who need help.

Iggy = Harper

janfromthebruce

Actually, the liberals are also all about helping "big business" too. For a disgusting example of how the libs - we really don't care about human rights and environment we just mouth such platitudes because they assume Canadians are stupid - read and weep:

Free Trade with a Murder State

For a refreshing on Liberals and how much they care about workers and farmers and people and their human rights, Go read Alison at Creekside's piece on Liberal support for free trade with Colombia - a country that kills more labour activists than any other state and in every other measurement has the worst human rights record in the hemisphere. Do it now.

But don't let delusion get into the way of I believe liberals really really care I surely do - they say so [cough; barf].

Debater

remind wrote:

Debator wrote:
I definitely think that one of the main reasons the NDP is considering supporting Harper this week is because it is afraid to have an election right now.  The NDP has had low poll numbers lately just as the journalists said on Power Play a few nights ago.

You are projecting Liberal sentiments on the NDP. As we all know,  the Liberals voted 79 times with Harper because they were afraid of an election, based upon their low poll numbers.

We're talking about the NDP this time, not the Liberals.  We talked about the Liberals all summer.  Right now the point is that the NDP has low poll numbers and coincidentally doesn't want an election.

janfromthebruce

Really, is that what the NDP told you or is that liberal "spin" - source where the NDP told you so.

Aaron.Broad

If you watched Question Period today, the CPC laughed out loud at reducing the threshold to 360 hours.  The CPC proposal is a range from 5 to 20 weeks extra EI on a gradient depending on how many *years* you've been paying premiums.  Haven't been paying for years, you're not entitled to any.  For the NDP to say they've pushed the Conservatives into some sort of compromise is laughable.  This is less than 1 Billion dollars for people who have been working for several years and haven't already exhausted EI.  Which, is basically no help at all.

The NDP are stalling.  This is not the compromise they can run on in some future election.  It is about EI, and so something they can say they were arguing to improve for another few weeks.  Election is coming...  NDP just have to get their ducks in a row before standing with the Liberals.  Harper is hated worst of all in Quebec.  Harper can lose his base selling out to the Bloc, or the Bloc can sell out their base to Harper, or the Bloc can bring him down.

The NDP are always interested in the long game.  Supporting Harper could devastate their party permanently.  Moving down in one particular election to give the Liberals a guaranteed win, while angling to become the future official opposition and then government as the new generation gets older and the economic situation of the Anglo-Saxon world becomes obvious is a much more workable plan.

Debater

Aaron.Broad wrote:

If you watched Question Period today, the CPC laughed out loud at reducing the threshold to 360 hours.  The CPC proposal is a range from 5 to 20 weeks extra EI on a gradient depending on how many *years* you've been paying premiums.  Haven't been paying for years, you're not entitled to any.  For the NDP to say they've pushed the Conservatives into some sort of compromise is laughable.  This is less than 1 Billion dollars for people who have been working for several years and haven't already exhausted EI.  Which, is basically no help at all.

The NDP are stalling.  This is not the compromise they can run on in some future election.  It is about EI, and so something they can say they were arguing to improve for another few weeks.  Election is coming...  NDP just have to get their ducks in a row before standing with the Liberals.  Harper is hated worst of all in Quebec.  Harper can lose his base selling out to the Bloc, or the Bloc can sell out their base to Harper, or the Bloc can bring him down.

The NDP are always interested in the long game.  Supporting Harper could devastate their party permanently.  Moving down in one particular election to give the Liberals a guaranteed win, while angling to become the future official opposition and then government as the new generation gets older and the economic situation of the Anglo-Saxon world becomes obvious is a much more workable plan.

You may be right.  The NDP could only be giving the Conservatives a short reprieve, and while the Conservatives will survive this Friday's vote it seems, there is another one next week when the Liberals present their non-confidence motion.  As Jean LaPierre explained earlier today, the BQ appear ready to support the Liberal non-confidence motion next week.  According to Robert Fife of CTV though, the NDP have already told him they will vote with the Conservatives on the confidence motion.

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

I've been away for a bit - but didn't the BQ 'save' the NDP today by saying they are voting with the government on Friday?

Debater

Boom Boom wrote:

I've been away for a bit - but didn't the BQ 'save' the NDP today by saying they are voting with the government on Friday?

I think the BQ plans to vote with the government on Friday because it contains things it supports eg. the home-renovation tax credit, etc.  But the BQ apparently will NOT be voting with the government next week - it is said to be prepared to support the Liberal non-confidence motion.

Centrist

Debater wrote:
 As Jean LaPierre explained earlier today, the BQ appear ready to support the Liberal non-confidence motion next week.  According to Robert Fife of CTV though, the NDP have already told him they will vote with the Conservatives on the confidence motion.

Duceppe today stated that the BQ has "no confidence" in the Tory government. I assume that they will support the Libs non-confidence motion.

I'm trying to get my head around this but if the NDP opposes the Libs "non-confidence" motion, does that mean that the NDP will be portrayed as having CONFIDENCE in the Tory government?

Frankly, I'm not sure how Jack will be able to get around that one. Thoughts???!!

 

 

 

 

Aaron.Broad

The Liberal confidence motion is not until October 4th as far as I know, so thats not next week.  Harper has signed an agreement with Ignatieff that he will not move it off of that day, as he did quite a bit of shuffling around of opposition days in the fall trying to avoid the last non-confidence vote.  However, I'm not sure how much weight that signed agreement really has legally, and Harper might move it back a week, claiming stability or something.  But, come 2nd week of october at the latest there will be a non-confidence vote, and neither the bloc or the NDP are going to be seen fetching Harper's coffee all fall while the Liberals are promising to save this country from him.

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

I'll leave 'thoughts' to the others, Centrist, because I'm not up to speed today. Good question, though.

ps: I hate this thread title - I don't believe Layton has ever been afraid of an election. It's bullshit to suggest he is.

janfromthebruce

I agree with Boom Boom - thread title and the bullshit

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