Liberals investigation: Allegations of harassment of MPs on Parliament Hill

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Winston

Unionist wrote:

How do we know they are women - and how do we know they are NDP?

Umm... Maybe from the media reports? How the media came to know isn't my concern, but since I assume the media reports of them being women to be true, I will continue to refer to them as such.

Unionist wrote:

And who came up with the "harassment" word??

One might be forgiven for using this word since it is contained in the title of this very thread.

Are we about done parsing posts and playing semantics? For someone so clever, you sure can be pedantic, Unionist!

terrytowel

Gerry Caplan was on Power & Politics and said we need to focus on the real issue. Fear of reporting assault

Sean in Ottawa

terrytowel wrote:

Gerry Caplan was on Power & Politics and said we need to focus on the real issue. Fear of reporting assault

Absolutely-- and recognize that this fear is very well founded. The solution is not to say it is okay go ahead and report it but to address the negative consequences of reporting. Meg referred in another thead to the need for a "safe environment" for women to come forward and that is exactly what we as a society must build collectively.

MegB

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

terrytowel wrote:

Gerry Caplan was on Power & Politics and said we need to focus on the real issue. Fear of reporting assault

Absolutely-- and recognize that this fear is very well founded. The solution is not to say it is okay go ahead and report it but to address the negative consequences of reporting. Meg referred in another thead to the need for a "safe environment" for women to come forward and that is exactly what we as a society must build collectively.

Couldn't agree more. Fear of coming forward is justified because of re-victimization, damage to career, re-traumatization, having your life and character put under a microscope by people who don't know you and will do anything to damage your veracity.

If women didn't have to endure this we'd be far more likely to come forward, go public. The number of public false accusations is miniscule compaired to the number of public accusations that further damage the individual accusing. Overwhelmingly women stay silent. It's an emotional survival mechanism that serves no one.

NorthReport

Mulcair says NDP women revictimized

Two female New Democrat MPs have been victimized a second time by Justin Trudeau's decision to publicize their complaints of inappropriate behaviour against two Liberal MPs, NDP Leader Tom Mulcair says.

Mulcair confirmed Thursday that it was complaints from two NDP MPs that prompted Trudeau to suspend Scott Andrews and Massimo Pacetti from the Liberal caucus pending an investigation.

Speaking in Whitby, Ont., Mulcair said he knew about the complaints but had not pursued them because the women wanted to keep the matter confidential.

"Our No. 1 concern was to make sure that they got the help they needed and that their wishes were respected," he said.

"Those wishes included a very strong desire to keep this confidential. That was their request and we were not about to override that and make them victims a second time."

Mulcair added: "Anyone who went against that, of course, would be running the risk of making them become victims a second time. That's certainly not something we would ever be part of."

He also chided Trudeau for failing to give New Democrats a heads up before going public.

"There was no prior warning whatsoever from the Liberals that they were going to be bringing this forward yesterday," Mulcair said.

 


http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2014/11/06/mulcair-says-ndp-women-revic...

 

Sean in Ottawa

Yes, it seems there is always a need for public education about reports of false claims. In fact it is not surprising. When people are accused of doing something bad they often deny it even if they are guilty. In the context of sexual assualts this denial is framed as a charge of a false accusation. The public needs to understand that denial is a natural thing and, as wrong as it is, there should be no surprise about the existence of large numbers of claims being called false.

The bottom line is simple and explains the numbers  -- women have no incentive to lie, what they go through after coming forward is very rough and frequently life changing to the negative.

Perpetrators clearly do have the incentive to deny any claim no matter how strong the evidence. Their incentive is to try to avoid the natural consequences of their actions. There is no explanation possible other than denial. Those who have perpetrated sexual assualt have an overwhelming incentive to lie about it and intimidate their victims into silence.

These are very clear and  logical facts. And the stats reflect this reality -- many reports of false claims and in reality, as you would expect, extremely few of them turn out to be false.

People should think about how the incentives work: victims have the incentive not to come forward, and to tell the truth when they do and the perpetrators have the incentive to lie and deny.

MegB

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Yes, it seems there is always a need for public education about reports of false claims. In fact it is not surprising. When people are accused of doing something bad they often deny it even if they are guilty. In the context of sexual assualts this denial is framed as a charge of a false accusation. The public needs to understand that denial is a natural thing and, as wrong as it is, there should be no surprise about the existence of large numbers of claims being called false.

The bottom line is simple and explains the numbers  -- women have no incentive to lie, what they go through after coming forward is very rough and frequently life changing to the negative.

Perpetrators clearly do have the incentive to deny any claim no matter how strong the evidence. Their incentive is to try to avoid the natural consequences of their actions. There is no explanation possible other than denial. Those who have perpetrated sexual assualt have an overwhelming incentive to lie about it and intimidate their victims into silence.

These are very clear and  logical facts. And the stats reflect this reality -- many reports of false claims and in reality, as you would expect, extremely few of them turn out to be false.

People should think about how the incentives work: victims have the incentive not to come forward, and to tell the truth when they do and the perpetrators have the incentive to lie and deny.

Cui bono does it for me when considering who is lying and who is not.

Brachina

 The Liberal bloggers on Progressive Bloggers are going on the attack against Mulcair.

 

baba yaga

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

terrytowel wrote:

Gerry Caplan was on Power & Politics and said we need to focus on the real issue. Fear of reporting assault

Absolutely-- and recognize that this fear is very well founded. The solution is not to say it is okay go ahead and report it but to address the negative consequences of reporting. Meg referred in another thead to the need for a "safe environment" for women to come forward and that is exactly what we as a society must build collectively.

I really fear for the direction this may go in after reading the comments at the CBC Power and Politics site. Not necessarily that we won't eventually get better processes in place within which women and men can report abuse. How well and consistently they work in practice is my concern. I don't see any places where there is a realisitc national discussion about what triggering and re-victimization mean, except here and at En Masse (for the most part at both places). And on Twitter. Maybe one out of over a hundred coments at P&P [EDITED to change to] disagree (not agree, as I originally wrote) with what Trudeau did, instead of stopping to consider that he could have gone to the complainant MP's, Mulcair and NDP Whip Nycole Turmel first. Nor what feels like after abuse and then to have watch the media circus. It's like the first week after Gomeshi all over again. "Innocent till proven guilty" repeated ad nauseum.

Nor what it means to say " I just want to get on with my life.". It's great we're having this conversation, but the lack of understanding is breathtaking. I'm in an ongoing abusive situation in my apartment building. Because it wasn't physical, it's very hard to prove how it's still affecting me. Past pshycological and verbal abuse prevent me from reporting a continuing unsatisfactory outcome of a lack of boundary respect. I can't even sleep in my own bedroom because of its proximity to my abuser. This is for over a year now.

When the Gomeshi story came out, I noticed myself reacting in ways that surprised me. And now we have more people coming forward and again I am finding it hard to deal with. Triggering is real. It's different for everybody. And it doesn't have to be physical abuse for the resulting emotions and physical reactions to be intense.

Like Ian Capstick yesterday, I didn't know I was going to disclose that until just now. He felt he had to after witnessing the bravery of Antonia and Sue on Twitter.

 

 

nicky
addictedtomyipod

The court of public opinion is not a safe environment for women to report allegations of harassment. I can understand why the request was for this to be delt with confidentially. The fact that Liberals and Elizabeth May are attacking Mulcair for raising this is partisan itself, as they are overlooking the needs of the victim. I can imagine future victims have learned to keep their mouth shut after this fiasco.

Frank Magazine has released the names of the MPs on Twitter and there is no point in naming them here. For one, it may be untrue, and two, they don't want their names made public.

Trudeau was right to act but I feel he could have handled this better.

As for EMe, she can fuck off.

clambake

Brachina wrote:

 The Liberal bloggers on Progressive Bloggers are going on the attack against Mulcair.

Strange that Liberal bloggers would be posting on a progressive page in the first place...

NorthReport

clambake, you nailed it.

Progressive Liberals is an oxymoron.

But unfortunately this is the Liberals approach to politics - they usually appear to be, often with the help of their big corporate donors, through ads, or other such nonsense, something they are not.

Unionist

Winston wrote:

Unionist wrote:

How do we know they are women - and how do we know they are NDP?

Umm... Maybe from the media reports? How the media came to know isn't my concern, but since I assume the media reports of them being women to be true, I will continue to refer to them as such.

What I meant to say was - did Trudeau say they were women? Did Turmel? Did Mulcair? Do you know, or is "media" a good enough answer?

Same question for NDP. Who said they were NDP? You say, "media". Do you actually have a source for that? Serious question.

Winston wrote:
Unionist wrote:

And who came up with the "harassment" word??

One might be forgiven for using this word since it is contained in the title of this very thread.

Your source is the thread title - the thread title!!?? The thread title doesn't even reference any source for the "harassment" claim.

Winston wrote:
Are we about done parsing posts and playing semantics? For someone so clever, you sure can be pedantic, Unionist!

I was hoping we could actually analyze, together, who said what, and how information became public, without these personal attacks. I have nothing to come back at you with. I don't know you, and even if I did, I don't think I would resort to such comments. I strongly suggest you deal with the issues without calling me names. Not that it actually reflects badly on me, though.

 

 

pookie

Reporter Jennifer Ditchburn is tweeting that it was the NDP, not the Liberals, who confirmed that the complainants were from that party.

https://twitter.com/jenditchburn/status/530505685998772227 

NorthReport

The May Greens, the Evan Solomon CBC, who with the Ghomeshi situation on the doorstep, should be clued in here, and the Trudeau Liberals, are all linked, unfortunately, and none of them get it.

nicky

May is getting massive coverage on the CBC for her attack on Mulcair.

She says Mulcair unfairly attacked Trudeau for sacking Pacetti and Andrews when he did no such thing so far as I am aware.

He criticized Trudeau for going public against the wishes of the complainants. Of course no one on the CBC called May on this misrepresentation.

Unionist

pookie wrote:

Reporter Jennifer Ditchburn is tweeting that it was the NDP, not the Liberals, who confirmed that the complainants were from that party.

https://twitter.com/jenditchburn/status/530505685998772227 

Pookie, if that's true, I might have to revise my condemnation of Trudeau above - but your link doesn't work for me. What exactly did she say and what was her source?

 

NorthReport

The Liberal camp is comprised of Trudeau, the Liberals, the CBC, and May. 

And they are not foolin' many of us any more.

The CBC, lashing out in all directions, is even now attacking the Toronto Star over the Ghomeshi incident.

If the CBC continues with approach they may well be closed up before too much longer. Too bad.

 

pookie

Unionist wrote:

Ok, I think I [url=https://twitter.com/jenditchburn/status/530505685998772227]fixed pookie's link[/url] - is this what you were referring to?

Yes, Unionist, that is it.

Unionist

Ok, I think I [url=https://twitter.com/jenditchburn/status/530505685998772227]fixed pookie's link[/url] - is this what you were referring to?

Unionist

And it gets more argumentative:

[url=https://twitter.com/MyleneFreeman/status/530507707720413185]Ditchburn vs. Freeman[/url]

NorthReport
  1. As It Happens ‏@cbcasithappens  7h7 hours ago

    Our lead: NDP's @MyleneFreeman: despite warnings Parliament needs a way to deal with harassment complaints, the govt has not acted. @ 6:30

     0 replies7 retweets5 favorites  Reply  Retweet7 Favorite5More

  2. Jennifer Ditchburn ‏@jenditchburn  6h6 hours ago

    @cbcasithappens @MyleneFreeman We were told by your party they were NDP MPs. You should ask your people.

    0 replies37 retweets17 favorites Reply Retweet37 Favorite17More

  3. Mylène Freeman ‏@MyleneFreeman  6h6 hours ago

    @jenditchburn That is absolutely untrue.

    0 replies3 retweets2 favorites Reply Retweet3 Favorite2More

  4. Jennifer Ditchburn ‏@jenditchburn  6h6 hours ago

    @MyleneFreeman you should really talk to your people.

    0 replies16 retweets10 favorites Reply Retweet16 Favorite10More

 FollowMylène Freeman‏@MyleneFreeman

@jenditchburn And your accusation that I am uninformed is frankly insulting.

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3:56 PM - 6 Nov 2014

  1. Jennifer Ditchburn ‏@jenditchburn  5h5 hours ago

    @MyleneFreeman no insult intended. But I am telling you that the NDP told us that it was NDP MPs.

    0 replies54 retweets29 favorites Reply Retweet54 Favorite29More

  2. poli_nerd ‏@poli_nerd  5h5 hours ago

    @MyleneFreeman & your accusation of @jenditchburn is ?? I don't know what is going on but NDP behaving very badly here. :( Trust media more

    0 replies1 retweet2 favorites Reply Retweet1 Favorite2More

  3. WTF-Ette ‏@flr666  5h5 hours ago

    @jenditchburn I also read in a report that Mulcaire had a pair of young, attractive female NDP MPs in a meeting during the press conference.

    0 replies0 retweets0 favorites Reply Retweet FavoriteMore

  4. Dave Belyea ‏@ve5rb  5h5 hours ago

    @jenditchburn @MyleneFreeman Keep telling the truth Jen!

    0 replies2 retweets10 favorites Reply Retweet2 Favorite10More

  5. Sina Spen ‏@SinAspen  5h5 hours ago

    @poli_nerd @MyleneFreeman @jenditchburn course you do, you're a LPC hack

    0 replies1 retweet0 favorites Reply Retweet1 FavoriteMore

  6. Steve V ‏@FarAndWide  4h4 hours ago

    @MyleneFreeman @jenditchburn Get over yourself NDP.

    0 replies1 retweet0 favorites Reply Retweet1 FavoriteMore

  7. Michael Behiels ‏@67Capt_Canuck  4h4 hours ago

    @jenditchburn @MyleneFreeman Mulcair sat on allegations for 1 yr! Then allowed his 2 MPs to confront Trudeau now. It was a political trap!

    0 replies7 retweets6 favorites Reply Retweet7 Favorite6More

  8. Cara Stewart ‏@maynecs  4h4 hours ago

    @67Capt_Canuck Normally I enjoy your tweets but not this one. Thumbs down.

    0 replies0 retweets0 favorites Reply Retweet FavoriteMore

  9. nickcott ‏@nickcott  4h4 hours ago

    @poli_nerd @MyleneFreeman @jenditchburn NDP wrong on this and scrambling. They sat on this info for a year. Trudeau acted.

    0 replies2 retweets2 favorites Reply Retweet2 Favorite2More

  10. Robin Hay ‏@rbnhy  3h3 hours ago

    @jenditchburn @cselley @MyleneFreeman 2 NDP MPs accuse 2 Liberal MPs of harassment and somehow it's all the govt's fault. Give me a break.

    0 replies0 retweets0 favorites Reply Retweet FavoriteMore

  11. Chris ‏@cherriot  3h3 hours ago

    @PatOndabak what @MyleneFreeman has to keep in mind is that @jenditchburn doesn't have a pony in this race

    0 replies4 retweets4 favorites Reply Retweet4 Favorite4More

  12. Chris ‏@cherriot  3h3 hours ago

    @67Capt_Canuck @jenditchburn @MyleneFreeman wonder True or False??

    0 replies0 retweets0 favorites Reply Retweet FavoriteMore

  13. Maria et al ‏@yemenrightsmon  3h3 hours ago

    @jenditchburn @MyleneFreeman why do Canadians always turn all sexual harassment allegations into a Trudeu-lovefest not victim love? #cdnpoli

    0 replies1 retweet1 favorite Reply Retweet1 Favorite1More

  14. Maria et al ‏@yemenrightsmon  3h3 hours ago

    @jenditchburn @MyleneFreeman why is Canada so obssesed about Trudeau & not harassment victims? Focus on vulnerable victims #cdnpoli

 

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

I don't understand any of these tweets. What was the point of this? Am I correct in saying the NDP sat on this for a year and that mulcair is just tyring to embarass Trudeau? Is this what is being alleged? And that this then is not something that just happened? I don't get what is going on here. Can we get a bit of non partisan explanation on this? Thanks.

NorthReport

Arthur - here you go.

Mulcair says Trudeau revictimized women who made misconduct complaints

NDP Leader Tom Mulcair confirmed it was complaints from two NDP MPs that prompted Justin Trudeau to suspend MPs Scott Andrews and Massimo Pacetti.

"Speaking in Whitby, Mulcair said he knew about the complaints but had not pursued them because the women wanted to keep the matter confidential."

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/11/06/mulcair_says_trudeau_revic...

NorthReport

Allegations have opened floodgate for a host of previously untold Hill stories: Hébert

Few are more vulnerable to allegations of personal misconduct than elected politicians.

I first came to Ottawa to report on federal politics in 1977 as a very junior twenty-something Radio-Canada reporter.

It was a brief sojourn.

Within a few months, I came to the conclusion that the then-male bastion of Parliament was not the best working environment for a young female journalist to spend her formative professional years in.

A few days before I headed back to Toronto and a freelance journalism gig my colleagues invited me to tag along to a Quebec MP’s annual Christmas office party.

There were a few other women attending the party but they had been hired for the occasion and each had settled on a male guest’s lap by the time we arrived.

It was a decade before I returned to the Hill. There were more women in Parliament the second time around but its boys’ club mentality seemed fundamentally unchanged.

Over the years that followed, I remember counselling a younger colleague who wondered if she was cut out for political coverage after a failed attempt to connect with the Liberal leadership team she had been assigned to.

A dinner with one of the candidate’s organizers had ended abruptly when her guest called for the bill and chided her for not having understood that she was meant to be dessert. I suggested sticking to lunches in the future.

On the constitutional road show a few years later, I remember how women staffers and reporters all knew better than to risk being cornered in a seat by a certain MP on the committee’s bus.

On two occasions, people associated with the parliamentary page program casually dropped hints that their protégés sometimes had to interact with MPs or senators whose hands tended to wander.

Over time the number of women in the press gallery reached a critical mass.

A more egalitarian generation of politicians found its way to the Hill. It includes a significant contingent of women.

A washroom off the lobby of the House of Commons was even made accessible to them!

But it apparently takes longer to change attitudes than it does to relocate a washroom.

The allegations that have surfaced this week suggest that some old habits die hard — including that of sweeping harassment issues under the rug.

Few are more vulnerable to allegations of personal misconduct than elected politicians and there has long been an implicit gentlemen’s agreement (pun intended) between the parties to deal with such matters under the radar.

Until now . . . .


http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/11/05/allegations_suggest_old_ha...

pookie

I initally tried to link to Ditchburn's tweet (Unionist provided correct one) because of posts here speculating that the party affiliation/gender of the MPs was leaked by the Liberals.

Jennifer Ditchburn does not strike me as a liar.

 

Rokossovsky

MegB wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

terrytowel wrote:

Gerry Caplan was on Power & Politics and said we need to focus on the real issue. Fear of reporting assault

Absolutely-- and recognize that this fear is very well founded. The solution is not to say it is okay go ahead and report it but to address the negative consequences of reporting. Meg referred in another thead to the need for a "safe environment" for women to come forward and that is exactly what we as a society must build collectively.

Couldn't agree more. Fear of coming forward is justified because of re-victimization, damage to career, re-traumatization, having your life and character put under a microscope by people who don't know you and will do anything to damage your veracity.

If women didn't have to endure this we'd be far more likely to come forward, go public. The number of public false accusations is miniscule compaired to the number of public accusations that further damage the individual accusing. Overwhelmingly women stay silent. It's an emotional survival mechanism that serves no one.

Are we saying it was ok for Trudeau to force the point?

Unionist

J. Baglow's blog on rabble.ca:

[url=http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/j-baglow/2014/11/workplace-harassment-an... workplace harassment and two-bit politics[/url]

Quote:

By taking the action he did — sidelining the two MPs pending an investigation — Trudeau is now being accused, incredibly, of “re-victimizing” the women — a truly shameful display of partisan politics by the NDP.

Suppose Trudeau had simply sat on the information. When this became common knowledge, as such things almost inevitably do, you can imagine the public drubbing he would have received. Instead, in marked contrast to, say, CBC management, he acted quickly and decisively. But in the narrow, stupid, debased politics on the Hill, this was an opportunity to smear him instead of lauding him for getting it right. [...]

But what was Trudeau supposed to do, when confronted directly?

I’m no admirer of the man, to put it mildly. But here he not only did the right thing, he did the only thing.

Another opinion to put in the mix. I'd still like to know all the facts. It appears, however, that Mylène Freeman did admit that it was the NDP that disclosed that the two MPs were NDP - albeit after getting their consent to do so. What I don't understand, then, is why the public needed to know that part. Harassment (if that's what it was) is harassment, and the rights and protection of the victim(s), and all potential victims, must be paramount.

Webgear

What a thread, "Progressives" back stabbing their own to score some political points. 

MegB

Rokossovsky wrote:

MegB wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

terrytowel wrote:

Gerry Caplan was on Power & Politics and said we need to focus on the real issue. Fear of reporting assault

Absolutely-- and recognize that this fear is very well founded. The solution is not to say it is okay go ahead and report it but to address the negative consequences of reporting. Meg referred in another thead to the need for a "safe environment" for women to come forward and that is exactly what we as a society must build collectively.

Couldn't agree more. Fear of coming forward is justified because of re-victimization, damage to career, re-traumatization, having your life and character put under a microscope by people who don't know you and will do anything to damage your veracity.

If women didn't have to endure this we'd be far more likely to come forward, go public. The number of public false accusations is miniscule compaired to the number of public accusations that further damage the individual accusing. Overwhelmingly women stay silent. It's an emotional survival mechanism that serves no one.

Are we saying it was ok for Trudeau to force the point?

Where on earth did you get that?

Rokossovsky

Unionist wrote:

J. Baglow's blog on rabble.ca:

[url=http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/j-baglow/2014/11/workplace-harassment-an... workplace harassment and two-bit politics[/url]

Quote:

By taking the action he did — sidelining the two MPs pending an investigation — Trudeau is now being accused, incredibly, of “re-victimizing” the women — a truly shameful display of partisan politics by the NDP.

Suppose Trudeau had simply sat on the information. When this became common knowledge, as such things almost inevitably do, you can imagine the public drubbing he would have received. Instead, in marked contrast to, say, CBC management, he acted quickly and decisively. But in the narrow, stupid, debased politics on the Hill, this was an opportunity to smear him instead of lauding him for getting it right. [...]

But what was Trudeau supposed to do, when confronted directly?

I’m no admirer of the man, to put it mildly. But here he not only did the right thing, he did the only thing.

Another opinion to put in the mix. I'd still like to know all the facts. It appears, however, that Mylène Freeman did admit that it was the NDP that disclosed that the two MPs were NDP - albeit after getting their consent to do so. What I don't understand, then, is why the public needed to know that part. Harassment (if that's what it was) is harassment, and the rights and protection of the victim(s), and all potential victims, must be paramount.

Yeah. Nice to make claims upon the conscience of others. When are we going to start forcing testimony from witnesses for the greater good, in order to protect potential victims.

If Trudeau didn't consult with those who made allegations, before revealing those allegations, as to what course they feel is appropriate, he is clearly in the wrong.

 

terrytowel

Rokossovsky wrote:

Yeah. Nice to make claims upon the conscience of others. When are we going to start forcing testimony from witnesses for the greater good, in order to protect potential victims.

If Trudeau didn't consult with those who made allegations, before revealing those allegations, as to what course they feel is appropriate, he is clearly in the wrong.

Read link #80

http://rabble.ca/comment/1466905#comment-1466905

National Ballet Rex Harrington just tweeted

A big congrats to Mr. Trudeau for acting so firmly. This ndp supporter will query NDP slowness

https://twitter.com/rexherrington/status/530489043688361985

nicky

Just demonstrating your self-proclaimed "neutrality" again, eh TerryT ?

terrytowel

nicky wrote:

Just demonstrating your self-proclaimed "neutrality" again, eh TerryT ?

Just providing facts, not deflecting like you.

Unionist

So, what is it about "two-bit politics" that all you Liberal and NDP partisans didn't get?

Can this conceivably be about the victims, without a bearded interrogator and a pugilist getting into the ring looking for a knock-out punch?

The "leaders" hugged and kissed each other when the "terrorists" came to the Hill. They talked about "security" and "values". But when the real seamy side of Parliament risks getting exposed, they go back to shooting at each other. Victims of abuse don't need "security". That's not one of our "values".

 

 

Rokossovsky

terrytowel wrote:

Rokossovsky wrote:

Yeah. Nice to make claims upon the conscience of others. When are we going to start forcing testimony from witnesses for the greater good, in order to protect potential victims.

If Trudeau didn't consult with those who made allegations, before revealing those allegations, as to what course they feel is appropriate, he is clearly in the wrong.

Read link #80

http://rabble.ca/comment/1466905#comment-1466905

National Ballet Rex Harrington just tweeted

A big congrats to Mr. Trudeau for acting so firmly. This ndp supporter will query NDP slowness

https://twitter.com/rexherrington/status/530489043688361985

You do know the difference between the meaning of the word "consult" and the phrase "give notice". The first is an engaged conversation where a person who is about to make a decision gets the views of those who may be affected by the decision before making that decision. This is distinct from giving "notice" where one informs someone of your decision before acting on it, as in when you send and "eviction notice", in this case a couple of hours before the bailiff appears to take all your possessions.

Rokossovsky

Unionist wrote:

So, what is it about "two-bit politics" that all you Liberal and NDP partisans didn't get?

Can this conceivably be about the victims, without a bearded interrogator and a pugilist getting into the ring looking for a knock-out punch?

You are suggesting that Mulcair is acting in defense of members of his party without their consent?

Now we have gone from wanting to "find out what happened" to mindreading, in a breezy couple of hours.

Unionist

So now I'm being accused of being lukewarm about bicycle paths and growing the green economy... The straw-man factory is running flat-out on its solar cells. I confess I'm not a bilingual vegan, but radical secularism is not the solution. It's only one of many approaches to alternative dispute resolution, when legislation and arbitration are viewed as risky and heavy-handed options.

Hope I understood correctly?

 

Rokossovsky

MegB wrote:

Rokossovsky wrote:

MegB wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

terrytowel wrote:

Gerry Caplan was on Power & Politics and said we need to focus on the real issue. Fear of reporting assault

Absolutely-- and recognize that this fear is very well founded. The solution is not to say it is okay go ahead and report it but to address the negative consequences of reporting. Meg referred in another thead to the need for a "safe environment" for women to come forward and that is exactly what we as a society must build collectively.

Couldn't agree more. Fear of coming forward is justified because of re-victimization, damage to career, re-traumatization, having your life and character put under a microscope by people who don't know you and will do anything to damage your veracity.

If women didn't have to endure this we'd be far more likely to come forward, go public. The number of public false accusations is miniscule compaired to the number of public accusations that further damage the individual accusing. Overwhelmingly women stay silent. It's an emotional survival mechanism that serves no one.

Are we saying it was ok for Trudeau to force the point?

Where on earth did you get that?

I asked because I thought this might be invoking the "duty to report" because I am not really clear on what Caplan is saying when he talks about "fear of reporting assault". Out of context it seems he could be chastising victims who do not report, "for the greater good".

Obviously harassment and sexual assault are serious business, but many people don't report crimes, not because they "can not be bothered", but because it is not worth the effort. It's not necessarily because one is afraid of being re-vicitimized, or having your dirty laundry aired -- some people just want to move on without all the hassle.

For all we know the harassment here is pretty low level male teasing stuff, and in that case the victims may simply have wanted the perpetrators to show more respect, and so told Trudeau so that he could quietly get his house in order, and make them behave properly.

This isn't necessarily another Jian Ghomshi story here, as far as I know.

terrytowel

Gerry Caplan remarks one hour IN the video of Power & Politics

http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/TV+Shows/Power+%26+Politics+with+Evan+Solo...

Lord Palmerston

terrytowel wrote:
Laurie Graham outlines the timeline of events

According to her report Trudeau gave the NDP two hours notice before his news conference.

">http://www.ctvnews.ca/video?binId=1.810401

This is a link to a video of an emergency plane landing in Edmonton.