NDP #15

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Aristotleded24

NorthReport wrote:
NDP’s Patry bolts caucus to join Bloc Frown

Yup, that Mulcair is a brilliant leader, isn't he, We need to elect him because only he can hold on to the NDP's Quebec seats.

Oh, wait. Remind me which federal party has seen the most defections in this current Parliament? Remind me which party has already lost 2 of its MPs from Quebec due to defections? Anybody remember how the BQ formed with a few disaffected PCs bolting under Mulroney, only to have them explode onto the scene in 1993?

On to the Clarity Act specifically, which was one of the reasons Mr. Patry cited, who the heck was advising Mulcair in the first place? Not only did his position alienate nearly every provincial section of the country, but also one of his MPs from the province in question as well. All he had to do was say something like, "we reject the divisive tactics of the Bloc, and are fighting hard for an inclusive country that brings together Canadians from inside and outside of Quebec."

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Aristotleded24 wrote:

On to the Clarity Act specifically, which was one of the reasons Mr. Patry cited, who the heck was advising Mulcair in the first place? Not only did his position alienate nearly every provincial section of the country, but also one of his MPs from the province in question as well. All he had to do was say something like, "we reject the divisive tactics of the Bloc, and are fighting hard for an inclusive country that brings together Canadians from inside and outside of Quebec."

Indeed that was Jack's message over and over again in the last election and it won the party its historic breakthrough in Quebec. Mulcair has visions of being a Father of Confederation much like Mulroney did except at least Mulroney was smart enough to win an election before jumping into that particular quagmire. 

Mulcair is also revisiting the free trade issue and his views on "free trade" have not changed during his political career.  Like many Quebec politicians he has always supported "free trade" agreements and now his party must as well.  I think that Peter Julian must be having a bit of a problem with that since he has spent his whole adult life opposing these corporate rights agreement but only time will tell what that means for the future of the party in BC. Progressives in BC are almost unanimous in their opposition to these kinds of agreements because they are not about trade. If the NDP goes even further in the direction of accepting them as a good thing for Canada the next election might see some interesting results.

Aristotleded24

kropotkin1951 wrote:
Mulcair is also revisiting the free trade issue and his views on "free trade" have not changed during his political career.  Like many Quebec politicians he has always supported "free trade" agreements and now his party must as well.  I think that Peter Julian must be having a bit of a problem with that since he has spent his whole adult life opposing these corporate rights agreement but only time will tell what that means for the future of the party in BC. Progressives in BC are almost unanimous in their opposition to these kinds of agreements because they are not about trade. If the NDP goes even further in the direction of accepting them as a good thing for Canada the next election might see some interesting results.

Let's take the trade issue one step further. Suppose you believe that the trade deals should stand, they just need to be revised (not my view). If you're going into those kind of negotiations, you need to have some sort of leverage to convince the other party to meet your concessions. Mulcair has categorically taken arbrogation off the table, so if there's no real threat of walking away from the agreement, what incentive does that leave for the other trading partners to negotiate?

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Ari:

"On to the Clarity Act specifically, which was one of the reasons Mr. Patry cited, who the heck was advising Mulcair in the first place? Not only did his position alienate nearly every provincial section of the country, but also one of his MPs from the province in question as well. All he had to do was say something like, "we reject the divisive tactics of the Bloc, and are fighting hard for an inclusive country that brings together Canadians from inside and outside of Quebec."

Well, as always you boil things down to the nuts and bolts. Nailed it again! GREAT comment!

ETA: I voted for Mulcair for leader as I thought he was the best AVAILABLE choice. I am beginning to think that with more seasoning and a willingness to become a little more outgoing that Nike Ashton may a real alternative.

Any NDP Puhbahs reading this, you guys are making me nervous. It the LPC comes back and we lose Quebec again, I am just going to give up on you guys. Don't screw it up! Too many people have worked to get you where you are like my departed parents (blessed be their memory). Get you G-d damn act together, now!

ETA: Queue Debator in 3...2...1.........

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

"Let's take the trade issue one step further. Suppose you believe that the trade deals should stand, they just need to be revised (not my view). If you're going into those kind of negotiations, you need to have some sort of leverage to convince the other party to meet your concessions. Mulcair has categorically taken arbrogation off the table, so if there's no real threat of walking away from the agreement, what incentive does that leave for the other trading partners to negotiate?"

Ari, twice in half an hour, how do you do it? Another great comment! I wish you were in a postion to influence the party puhbash.

Serioulsy, I think this guys are clueless.

Debater

How will the defection of a 3rd NDP MP since Mulcair became leader effect the NDP?  First the NDP lost Lise St. Denis to the Liberals, then Bruce Hyer quit to sit as an Independent, and now it has lost Claude Patry to the BQ:

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ndp-mp-claude-patry-defects...

 

NDP MP Claude Patry defects to join the Bloc Québécois

socialdemocrati...

I'm glad to be rid of them. It just shows there's a real difference between the NDP and the other parties.

And yes, those MPs should have to vacate and then accept a by-election.

felixr

socialdemocraticmiddle wrote:

I'm glad to be rid of them. It just shows there's a real difference between the NDP and the other parties.

And yes, those MPs should have to vacate and then accept a by-election.

+1

Aristotleded24

socialdemocraticmiddle wrote:
I'm glad to be rid of them. It just shows there's a real difference between the NDP and the other parties.

And yes, those MPs should have to vacate and then accept a by-election.

Is there something behind this sentiment other than blind loyal cheerleading, that Lise St. Denise, Bruce Hyer, and Claude Patry simply quit the team and now they are bad? What is your basis for preferring the NDP not be with these specific MPs?

mark_alfred

theleftyinvestor wrote:

I don't know, I feel like all along the Conservatives have had abolition as their second choice. They want to make the Senate as unpalatable and unpopular as possible in order to be able to make that happen. Sort of like that show that used to be on the CBC, where a cynical Prime Minister appoints a faded disco singer as Governor General in order to make the public sour against the idea of that office.

I think you're being pretty charitable and giving far too much credit to the Conservatives with that thought.

socialdemocrati...

Aristotleded24 wrote:

socialdemocraticmiddle wrote:
I'm glad to be rid of them. It just shows there's a real difference between the NDP and the other parties.

And yes, those MPs should have to vacate and then accept a by-election.

Is there something behind this sentiment other than blind loyal cheerleading, that Lise St. Denise, Bruce Hyer, and Claude Patry simply quit the team and now they are bad? What is your basis for preferring the NDP not be with these specific MPs?

I'm a federalist. And so is the NDP. If someone wants a pro-sovereignty voice, there's another party for that.

I'd feel the same way if, say, an anti-choice or anti-gay MP crossed over to the Liberals.

I'm not a purist by any means. There's a lot of issues I have wiggle room on. Not the least of which is how we set the goalposts for how a Quebec declaration of independence would be considered legitimate. But when push comes to shove, if an NDP would rather see Quebec leave than try to build a bridge, then they're welcome to advocate for that somewhere else.

Debater

NDP defection rehashes the party’s ‘Quebec sovereignty’ problem

 

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/canada-politics/ndp-defection-rehashes-pa...

janfromthebruce

The first comment of the top is the following:

"I consulted my family and I came to the conclusion that..."

You weren't elected by your family, but by your constituents. As such, it matters what your constituents think, not what your family thinks. If you can no longer perform your duties as an elected member of the NDP, you should step aside and there should be a by-election. These 'defections' are both undemocratic and a down right slap to the face of the people that voted for you.

52users liked this commentRate a Thumb UpRate a Thumb Down1

Take note, 99% of the viewers support the idea that this defector should step aside and there be a by election.

By that philosophy, it means anybody who decides to swtich parties from what they are elected, should have to run in a by election. No easy ride.

I remember when that Liberal guy in BC, switched parties from Lib to Con before being sworn in and Libs were hopping mad. The constituents were too, thinking that they had to "strategically vote Lib" instead of NDP, which came a close 2nd. The Cons came a distant 3rd.


Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Debater wrote:

NDP defection rehashes the party’s ‘Quebec sovereignty’ problem

 

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/canada-politics/ndp-defection-rehashes-pa...

With who Debator, Liberals?

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

From this coast it seems to me that the people of Quebec voted for the NDP because they liked both Jack and his message. His message stated that he and the NDP were not interested in opening up the debate but respected the Quebec people and their nation.

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

On the news tonight: Mulcair has asked his Quebec caucus if there are any more planning to leave over the upcoming Clarity Act vote, please leave now, and not just before the 2015 election. Jesus. Why would anyone want to stay after that?

NorthReport

Makes sense. If one is a member of a political party, toe the pary line, or get out. 

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Exactly and it means you lose people like Bill Siksay and get a Kennedy Stewart to replace him.

The real problem is there seems to be no PARTY line anymore merely a Mulcair line.

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

NorthReport wrote:

Makes sense. If one is a member of a political party, toe the pary line, or get out. 

 

You're just the loyal little bootlicker, aren't you?

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Well this is a mess for sure. I guess its Tom's idea of leadership. I don't know what I feel about the tactic, but I am not very comfortable about this. Its kind of Harper like. On the contrary, I don't see anyone challenging Le Dauphin once he becomes leader. His old man wasn't bashful about letting government members know what would happen if they diessented. For sure, this a version of NDP leader we haven't seen before.

Brachina

Boom Boom wrote:

NorthReport wrote:

Makes sense. If one is a member of a political party, toe the pary line, or get out. 

 

You're just the loyal little bootlicker, aren't you?

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Patry is a hypocrit and a jackass, he condemned Denise when she did it, voted against floor crossing himself. Then he goes and does it. Truth be told here lucky we have so few weasels like Patry and Denise given how little vetting was done. And Mulcair has the right to ask people if their going to defect to do so now.

Patry destroyed his career and I look forward to his defeat in 2015.

I wouldn't put Hyer is the same legue as these weasals, he was stupid to jump ship without going to Mulcair first, but at least h sits as an independant instead of betraying his voters. Patry if he's so offended should sit as an independant or if he really wants to join the Waste of Time Party he should resign and run under the WOTP banner.

Good for Mulcair on shaking the flees lose before the next election.

We need people we can trust both the NDP and the country.

I'm proud to say I voted Mulcair not just for his support in Quebec, but because he's a man of action, whose willing to take risks.

Patry and Denise have no honor.

mark_alfred

Interesting blog post on the subject of the Unity Bill and the treatment of the NDP by the media:

http://www.rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/karl-nerenberg/2013/03/conservative-...

Brachina

What is he suggesting thier is a...a media bias against the NDP :p

Seriously though the Tories could be eatting the poor while the NDP cures cancer and the headline would be "Tories cure poverty, while the NDP adds new costs to healthcare".

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Brachina wrote:
What is he suggesting thier is a...a media bias against the NDP :p Seriously though the Tories could be eatting the poor while the NDP cures cancer and the headline would be "Tories cure poverty, while the NDP adds new costs to healthcare".

Now that is funny!

Debater

Bloc Leader Daniel Paillé says Patry was attracted by Layton, who wanted to do politics differently.

"Now that we're in the leadership of Tom Mulcair, who falls into the old habits of the Conservatives, and who says we're going to do robocalls, and who says we're going to apply partisan pressure, I think on the part of Mr. Mulcair, it's shameful," Paillé told reporters following question period.

--

NDP target Claude Patry with robocalls after defection


http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2013/03/05/pol-ndp-robocall-defect...

 

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

You are a busy little beaver tonight, aren't you "you-know-who". Look, its a "you-know-who-kreig".

jjuares

Debater wrote:

Bloc Leader Daniel Paillé says Patry was attracted by Layton, who wanted to do politics differently.

"Now that we're in the leadership of Tom Mulcair, who falls into the old habits of the Conservatives, and who says we're going to do robocalls, and who says we're going to apply partisan pressure, I think on the part of Mr. Mulcair, it's shameful," Paillé told reporters following question period.

--

NDP target Claude Patry with robocalls after defection

 


http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2013/03/05/pol-ndp-robocall-defect...

 

 

Wow, the Bloc is critical of the NDP. This is amazing news. In a similar vein-tonight's forecast.....dark.

Unionist

mark_alfred wrote:

Interesting blog post on the subject of the Unity Bill and the treatment of the NDP by the media:

http://www.rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/karl-nerenberg/2013/03/conservative-...

Karl is unfortunately not strong on Québec's right to self-determination. That's an exception to his otherwise responsible and hardhitting stories IMO.

mark_alfred

Debater wrote:

--

NDP target Claude Patry with robocalls after defection


http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2013/03/05/pol-ndp-robocall-defect...

 

I feel that Patry should run in a byelection, and not just simply cross the floor.  Patry's action is disrespectful to the constituents of his riding.

janfromthebruce

mark_alfred wrote:

Debater wrote:

--

NDP target Claude Patry with robocalls after defection


http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2013/03/05/pol-ndp-robocall-defect...

 

I feel that Patry should run in a byelection, and not just simply cross the floor.  Patry's action is disrespectful to the constituents of his riding.

yes Kiss

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Jan:

You have REALLY been rocking these threads the last little while! ROCK ON!

Brachina

I support the robocalls, as long as they follow the law unlike the Tory robo calls. That means you identify who you are, the NDP,.

I like that the NDP is holding this lier to account, hopefully we can shame him into keeping his word.

@Unionist as plainly as I can. Karl's right and you're wrong. The Unity Bill protects 50 plus 1, it allows the National Assembly to dicate the question. Yes thier are a few minor stipulations that reassure Quebecers things will be fair, which is reasonable.

And to answer your next question Unionist this isn't saying Quebec voters can't be trusted, its politicians who can be tracherous he's protecting against. Its meant to reassure Quebecers who don't trust the PQ. Its a reasonable compromise that respects democracy and protects it.

Sadly Unionist you can't see this through all your Zealotry.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

There is a vote on the Clarity Act to repeal being advanced by the Bloc; how does the NDP handle this one? What a mess. It isn't like the LPC has done any better. But why is it this NEVER came up before now? The Bloc should be ashamed of itself. They are a useless rump party, with no reason to exist.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Do you really believe that what Canada needs is a one party system, as long as the party is the NDP?

From what I can gather the Greens are useless and not even a rump, the Bloc is a useless rump, the Liberals are a corrupt evil capitalist party and the Conservatives are an even more evil capitalist party whose members should all be jailed. Do they all need to disappear?

Would a party to the left of the NDP be acceptable in your world Arthur?

Ippurigakko

I got email from brandon says:

Join Libby Davies, NDP Deputy Leader and Health Critic, Jean Crowder, NDP Aboriginal Affairs Critic, and Chris Charlton, NDP Critic for Human Resources and Skills Development at our Annual General Meeting. Come discuss how we can build to win in Nunavut and hear an update on what is going on in Ottawa.

When: Saturday March 9th, 1:00 Where: Hotel Arctic, 923 Federal Road, Iqaluit
Join Libby, Jean, and Chris as we discuss how we can win in Nunavut.
Thanks,
BRANDON STEVENS

National Organizer | Organisateur National
Canada’s New Democrats | Le NPD du Canada

 

he ask how we can win in Nunavut NDP, i would suggest them, someone who is an aboriginal Inuit seeks the NDP candidate because nunavut are inuit, they more trust who are Inuit candidate, like Leona and Paul Okalik, in 2009 Paul Irngaut almost won in very close margin to Leona and Kirk. Like Thomas mulcair mention on Romeo and Jonathan are first nations in northern quebec, that why first nations voted both.....So im still wait someone nominatee in nunavut ndp before election....

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Do you really believe that what Canada needs is a one party system, as long as the party is the NDP?

From what I can gather the Greens are useless and not even a rump, the Bloc is a useless rump, the Liberals are a corrupt evil capitalist party and the Conservatives are an even more evil capitalist party whose members should all be jailed. Do they all need to disappear?

Would a party to the left of the NDP be acceptable in your world Arthur?

No, but I want the NDP to have a chance to govern. I don't see what the issue is here. Why don't you cool down? Go for a walk or something for crying out loud.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Arthur Cramer wrote:

The Bloc should be ashamed of itself. They are a useless rump party, with no reason to exist.

Undecided

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Well, that's how I feel. But what do I know about Quebec politics? If I offered any offense, it was not my intention. I apologize. But I stand by the rest. I have no use for the other parties. If the NDP governs and acts like Libs, and, I have posted this on these threads, I will simply stop voting. I have worked elections provincial and federal, one after another and donated money I didn't have as have most if not all of you. I have earned the right to my opinion. Am I partisan? Damn rights I am, and I'm not apologizing for it!

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

DP

theleftyinvestor

I can see why proportional representation is so popular in the NDP. Everyone who feels like the NDP will one day let them down wants the opportunity to flee the NDP for something more progressive without handing seats to Conservatives ;-)

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Arthur we have a lot in common. You just have not lost your faith yet. 

After whipping a vote that criminalized gay sex between teenagers the party lost my support. A minor issue for some but a proper point of principle for my MP.  Now with the NDP cheer leading on our troops for their part in the war on the Libyan people and supporting sanctions against Iran that are hurting that countries citizens and the party's support for sanctions and other measures to promote regime change in Syria they are not making me feel any better about them. Then you throw in the Mulcair policy on "free trade agreements' and I see no difference anymore. The NDP is a imperialist party and thus indistinguishable except in minor detail from the Liberals.  The main difference that I can see is that NDP politicians keep trying to get into the marital bed with business but business will only take them into a dark room to screw but not out to dinner in public.

I am cynical about politics after a lifetime of being involved. I have been a volunteer and organizer in provincial campaigns that elected women who were new to politics as MLA's and then proudly watched  them go on to become cabinet ministers in their respective provincial governments.  When I moved back to the coast part of the reason I chose North Burnaby is because it had a left municipal government and both an MP and MLA who were NDP.

You are a bit more civil than many NDP zealots I have met. When the party was crowning Ujjal as Premier I kept saying he's liberal not a democratic socialist and the partisan sheep called me a racist. Ujjal of course has since gone on record as stating that he was always a liberal and only joined the NDP out of expediency. I see Mulcair in exactly the same light.  He is a liberal not a socialist and that is my opinion and I am allowed to have it. I have always respected the Bloc for being a left of centre party and the idea that they should not exist and just because they are playing politics with federalist politicians and the NDP is now involved does not mean they should cease to exist.

 

Debater

Mulcair says NDP united against Clarity Act repeal

 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2013/03/06/pol-bq-clarity-act-vote...

Stockholm

Debater wrote:

Mulcair says NDP united against Clarity Act repeal

 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2013/03/06/pol-bq-clarity-act-vote...

I guess you can join the NDP now!

janfromthebruce

theleftyinvestor wrote:

I can see why proportional representation is so popular in the NDP. Everyone who feels like the NDP will one day let them down wants the opportunity to flee the NDP for something more progressive without handing seats to Conservatives ;-)

Actually, I disagree with your first sentence. With many NDP people I talk with it is about "having their vote count". Thus PP provides that for every party.

And I don't feel like the NDP let me down.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Stockholm wrote:

Debater wrote:

Mulcair says NDP united against Clarity Act repeal

 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2013/03/06/pol-bq-clarity-act-vote...

I guess you can join the NDP now!

He is the centrist type of voter that Mulcair is courting.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

K:

You wrote:

"He is a liberal not a socialist and that is my opinion and I am allowed to have it". Agreed, and I never said you weren't entitled to your opinion. But don't forget why I used the same words.

We'll see. I have already written that I didn't know when Mulcair said he'd "move the center to the NDP", that it would mean the NDP became Liberals. If he governs like one, that is it, I am through and won't vote. I don't think I could be any clearer.

Zealot, by definition, from Merrian Webster, in part "a fanatical partisan". That would be true if I thought the NDP could do no wrong. I have never written anything that said that directly, nor implied that. I'll concede readily, and without it bothering me that you are easily better educated then I am, better read and schooled, and likely a LOT smarter then I am. But you are still wrong calling me a zealot. That is failure by definition alone.

As I said, we will see. I get where you are coming from, but I am not backing down. And if Mulcair does not deliver, I am done. Period. Full-stop. End of story.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Sorry Arthur for calling you a civil zealot I should have said partisan.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

K, I really do not know whether that is snark or not. I really respect everything you write and I was being serious when I conceeded I was not in your league either in terms of education or intellect, and I hope you took it that way. I was not being sarcastic. I do not think I can be called always civil, I can say some pretty stupid things from time to time here. If I have heaved insult your way recently I do apologize and regret having done so. I will take partisan as I think it better describes me. Given the alternatives, I just do not see how there is any one else for whom to vote. But if Tom lets me down, that will be the end. Anyway, I will try to watch my tone and wait for more of your good posts. Thanks.

Art

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

That was not snark it was sincere but meant to be humorous at the same time.. That's the problem with this medium no eye and voice contact so the meaning of many things gets skewed. Thank you for your kind words however I am sure that while I might have a better education than you do it does not mean that you are not my intellectual equal because as far as I can tell you are.  I got my degrees too late in life to think that way.  I know lots of working people with keen intellects that never went to university or college. I have also met plenty of academics that sorely lacked in insight on issues outside of their own disciplines.  The reason I post here all the time is because I have been less than able bodied for a number of years and politics has always been my passion. When I went back to school to take political studies I discovered that while working camp jobs I had already read many of the books on the list of recommended readings.  Learning after all is a life long pursuit.

Debater

Bloc motion on Clarity Act easily defeated while inflicting damage on NDP

The Canadian Press

OTTAWA - The Bloc Quebecois has lost its bid to re-write the rules for Quebec secession — but not before inflicting considerable political damage on the NDP.

A Bloc motion calling for repeal of the Clarity Act was easily defeated late Wednesday by a vote of 283-5, with Conservatives, New Democrats and Liberals all opposing it.

There is no surprise in the motion's crushing defeat, but the Bloc succeeded in exposing divisions within the NDP — the BQ's arch-rivals in Quebec — and prompted New Democrat MP Claude Patry to defect to the Bloc last week.

The motion also provided fodder to federalist rivals to accuse the NDP of pandering to separatists with its proposed alternative to the Clarity Act

 

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/canada/bloc-motion-on-clarity-act-easil....

 

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