NDP #15

1097 posts / 0 new
Last post
knownothing knownothing's picture

Oh cmon, they legalized abortion in 1920 and set up socialized medicine. Norman Bethune was impressed enough to go and witness it firsthand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZkAtEJ7JtQ

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

knownothing wrote:

Oh cmon, they legalized abortion in 1920 and set up socialized medicine. Norman Bethune was impressed enough to go and witness it firsthand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZkAtEJ7JtQ

Quote:

we submit to readers the resolution which served as a programme for the Kronstadt movement. We reproduce it in full, because of its immense historical importance. It was adopted on February 28th by the sailors of the battleship Petropavlovsk, and was subsequently accepted by all the sailors, soldiers and workers of Kronstadt.

After having heard the representatives delegated by the general meeting of ships' crew to report on the situation in Petrograd this assembly takes the following decisions:

1. Seeing that the present soviets do not express the wishes of the workers and peasants, to organise immediately re-elections to the Soviets with Secret vote, and with care to organise free electoral propaganda for all workers and peasants.

2. To grant liberty of speech and of press to the workers and peasants, to the anarchists and the left socialist parties.

3. To secure freedom of assembly for labour unions and peasant organisations.

4. To call a non-partisan Conference of the workers, Red Army Soldiers and sailors of Petrograd, Kronstadt, and of Petrograd province, no later than March 10th, 1921.

5. To liberate all political prisoners of Socialist parties as well as all workers, peasants, soldiers and sailors imprisoned in connection with the labour and peasant movements.

6. To elect a Commission to review the cases of those held in prisons and concentration camps.

7. To abolish all politodeli [official propaganda] because no party should be given special privileges in the propagation of its ideas or receive financial support from the government for such purposes. Instead there should be established educational and cultural commissions, locally elected and financed by the government.

8. To abolish immediately all zagryaditelniye otryadi [armed units that requisitioned grain from the peasants].

9. To equalize all the rations of all who work with the exception of those employed in trades detrimental to health.

10. To abolish the communist fighting detachments in all branches of the army, as well as the communist guards kept on duty in mills and factories. Should such guards or military detachments be found necessary they are to be appointed in the army from the ranks, and in the factories according to the judgement of the workers.

11. To give the peasants full freedom of action in regard to their land and also the right to keep cattle on condition that the peasants manage with their own means; that is, without employing hired labour.

12. To request all branches of the Army, as well as our comrades the military kursanti [cadets] to concur in our resolutions.

13. To demand that the press give the fullest publicity to our resolutions.

14. To appoint a travelling commission of control.

15. To permit free artisan production which does not employ hired labour.

This was Lenin's response to democracy. Mulcair is nothing like Lenin.

 

knownothing knownothing's picture

You see things just like that photo...black and white

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Okay I agree with you.  Mulcair is a cut throat anti democratic autocrat just like Lenin who is likely to shoot people down in the streets if they question his governments power.

knownothing knownothing's picture

right...

Brachina

 Why the hell are people comparing Mulcair to Lenin?

 Lets back on topic.

Brachina

For manna from heaven

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/touch/news/Commons+committee+wants+Ambrose+...

The Tories are a never ending target range for the NDP.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

One of babbles NDP partisans made the ridiculous comparison. Even I felt it necessary to come to Tom's defence.

knownothing knownothing's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

One of babbles NDP partisans made the ridiculous comparison. Even I felt it necessary to come to Tom's defence.

It's not like I said that Mulcair was going to shoot the Queen, Charles, William, and Kate. I was comparing Mulcair's political tactics to Lenin because so many babblers, especially Kropotkin, are whining about Mulcair selling out the party values. In some ways it is true, he is. That is what Lenin did as well. Lenin was an opportunist who used the Bolsheviks and ideology to take power.

Listen to Chomsky's analysis of Lenin and tell me that it doesn't remind you of Mulcair

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nz11K1wUbrc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfL8-4OOIuI

But I want Mulcair to take power. The longer the NDP stays in opposition, the more corrupted they will be by the establishment anyways. They might as well be in power if that is the case.

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Whatever you say. After all you are knownothing.

knownothing knownothing's picture
North Star

knownothing wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

One of babbles NDP partisans made the ridiculous comparison. Even I felt it necessary to come to Tom's defence.

It's not like I said that Mulcair was going to shoot the Queen, Charles, William, and Kate. I was comparing Mulcair's political tactics to Lenin because so many babblers, especially Kropotkin, are whining about Mulcair selling out the party values. In some ways it is true, he is. That is what Lenin did as well. Lenin was an opportunist who used the Bolsheviks and ideology to take power.

Listen to Chomsky's analysis of Lenin and tell me that it doesn't remind you of Mulcair

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nz11K1wUbrc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfL8-4OOIuI

But I want Mulcair to take power. The longer the NDP stays in opposition, the more corrupted they will be by the establishment anyways. They might as well be in power if that is the case.

 

I generally like Chomsky but that's a simplistic conception of Lenin and that's a simplistic conception of Mulcair actually as well even if I'm not particularly enthused about him.

knownothing knownothing's picture

Do you care to back up your statement with reasons?

mark_alfred

That's troubling.  The NDP must raise more money for it to be able to win.  One thing I don't understand about alleged left-wingers is how fast some are to pull out the daggers on their own party.  While right-wingers may be critical of their party, they'll still support it financially.  Assuming the article is correct, the Conservatives will be in government for the foreseeable future.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Right wing voters are inclined to supporting authority at all costs, left wingers are inclined to question all authority. 

As well while corporate donations have been outlawed many boardrooms expect their executives to give the Conservatives cash especially when they are getting big bonuses. Its way easier for a Calgary oil man to max out his personal contribution to the Conservatives than the average NDP member. 

Is there any way to know how many donors each party has compared to the total dollar figure?

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

-

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

North Star wrote:

knownothing wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

One of babbles NDP partisans made the ridiculous comparison. Even I felt it necessary to come to Tom's defence.

It's not like I said that Mulcair was going to shoot the Queen, Charles, William, and Kate. I was comparing Mulcair's political tactics to Lenin because so many babblers, especially Kropotkin, are whining about Mulcair selling out the party values. In some ways it is true, he is. That is what Lenin did as well. Lenin was an opportunist who used the Bolsheviks and ideology to take power.

Listen to Chomsky's analysis of Lenin and tell me that it doesn't remind you of Mulcair

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nz11K1wUbrc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfL8-4OOIuI

But I want Mulcair to take power. The longer the NDP stays in opposition, the more corrupted they will be by the establishment anyways. They might as well be in power if that is the case.

 

I generally like Chomsky but that's a simplistic conception of Lenin and that's a simplistic conception of Mulcair actually as well even if I'm not particularly enthused about him.

Seeing we are discussing it, and to whom is Trudeua similar, Nanki-Poo, Machiavelli or Foghorn Leghorn?

socialdemocrati...

Historically (over the past 10 years), Conservatives had a wide and deep donor base. The NDP has a wide but shallow donor base. The Liberals have a deep but narrow donor base.

Money is important, but it's not everything. TV ads don't matter as much in the age of the internet, and there are a lot of races where people get elected while being outspent. (But still a lot of races where money points to a winner.)

I keep saying it: the NDP wins when their message gets through to voters with no media filters or distortions. Word of mouth and a great ground game -- both things that depend on engaging volunteers, especially younger people.

Jacob Two-Two

I think those things will be especially important in this coming election, which looks likely to create a lot of tight three-way races.

Jacob Two-Two

But also I don't believe that a huge war chest is as helpful to the Cons as one would assume, and this is something that I've been repeating for years: The Cons have only looked strong because their opposition has been so weak. They have a solid base, obviously, but generally Canadians don't like the Conservatives. They don't like their policies, they don't like their politics, and they just don't like them personally.

In fact, Harper's biggest missteps have always been when he tried to go for the jugular, and inadvertently let too much slip about the true character of his party. Every time he tries to create a wedge issue to sink his opponents, he ends up being on the wrong side of public opinion and has to back off. He always does best when he sinks into the shadows and conducts his business undercover, while projecting his "good manager" vibe.

Same with their attack ads. They've worked in portraying Liberal leaders as poor leaders, but that's because they were poor leaders. Notice he hasn't found a way to do this with Mulcair. Attack ads that people can't see any truth in will just drive more people from the party, if anything, not for nastiness, but for incompetence. A popular government could use a lot of money to devestating effect, but what can Harper do with it really? The more people see of him, the less they like, so that's a bust. All he has are attack ads which he can run 'til the cows come home and it won't make any difference if people aren't seeing the same things themselves that are described in the ads.

Brachina

Arthur Cramer wrote:

North Star wrote:

knownothing wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

One of babbles NDP partisans made the ridiculous comparison. Even I felt it necessary to come to Tom's defence.

It's not like I said that Mulcair was going to shoot the Queen, Charles, William, and Kate. I was comparing Mulcair's political tactics to Lenin because so many babblers, especially Kropotkin, are whining about Mulcair selling out the party values. In some ways it is true, he is. That is what Lenin did as well. Lenin was an opportunist who used the Bolsheviks and ideology to take power.

Listen to Chomsky's analysis of Lenin and tell me that it doesn't remind you of Mulcair

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nz11K1wUbrc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfL8-4OOIuI

But I want Mulcair to take power. The longer the NDP stays in opposition, the more corrupted they will be by the establishment anyways. They might as well be in power if that is the case.

 

I generally like Chomsky but that's a simplistic conception of Lenin and that's a simplistic conception of Mulcair actually as well even if I'm not particularly enthused about him.

Seeing we are discussing it, and to whom is Trudeua similar, Nanki-Poo, Machiavelli or Foghorn Leghorn?

 

 Option 4 Honey Booboo. :p

Brachina

I like to ad that the silver lining to Trudeaumania is the Tories lethal guns are aim at Trudeau and as a bonus the leaky cup that is the Liberal Parties fainciances are spending the Trudeau cast as fast as he makes it.

When Justin continues to fizzle on his own, that Tory money will have been spent for nothing.

We only have to survive the Tory money advantage till the beginning of the 2015 election, then spending limits kick in and were all on level ground, aside from the damag the Tories and Liberals inflict on one another.

mark_alfred

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Right wing voters are inclined to supporting authority at all costs, left wingers are inclined to question all authority. 

As well while corporate donations have been outlawed many boardrooms expect their executives to give the Conservatives cash especially when they are getting big bonuses. Its way easier for a Calgary oil man to max out his personal contribution to the Conservatives than the average NDP member. 

Is there any way to know how many donors each party has compared to the total dollar figure?

They have these statistics on elections.ca

For contributions from individuals as tallied for 2012, here are the following results:

Conservative:  $22,737,966.46 total contributions from 110,267 individuals (thus on average $206.21 per individual contributor per year)

Liberal:  $10,119,908.62 total contributions from 49,650 individuals (thus on average $203.82 per individual contributor per year)

NDP:  $7,427,060.63 total contributions from 37,778 individuals (thus on average $196.60 per individual contributor per year)

Two hundred bucks a year is less than $20 a month.  Per individual, there's not a huge difference between the parties.  The real difference is the number of individuals actually contributing.  Given what Canada's population is, no party is attracting huge numbers of individual contributors.  But of those who are contributing, the Conservatives are getting over twice the number of people to contribute than are the others. 

ETA:  Referencing comment 864

Brachina

 I'm betting that a big chunk of that Tory base of donars comes from socon churchs followers.

 

 I'd also like to point out that the Tories spend more on fundraising thier any of the other parties.

knownothing knownothing's picture

NDP MP wants to see research behind new blue look on GoC websites

 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/inside-politics-blog/2013/05/ndp-mp-want...

mark_alfred
Brachina

Goddamn it, that sucks. Wasn't one leader of the NDP stolen by cancer bad enough. I hate cancer and I will celebrate when that evil disease is finally cured.

I really hope she survives, she's a good person who has served her country well.

David Young

Brachina wrote:

Goddamn it, that sucks. Wasn't one leader of the NDP stolen by cancer bad enough. I hate cancer and I will celebrate when that evil disease is finally cured. I really hope she survives, she's a good person who has served her country well.

I spoke with Alexa on Saturday at the N.S. NDP's A.G.M. at Pier 21 in Halifax, and she is supremely confident that because of early detection, she will conquer this latest challenge.

 

Brachina

 Yeah for early detection!

janfromthebruce

This is about all parties and how much they contribute in word count in the House. Parliamentary word count reveals who the Commons talkers and non-talkers are

How does your MP stack up? Here you can find your Member of Parl and many wordks he/she spoke in the Commons in 2012.

 

Noted in the TorStar article is the writer tries to save Trudeau Jr. with suggesting that he was out campaigning or whatever but the reality is that he basically didn't join that race until much latter. See here:

On September 26, 2012, multiple media outlets started reporting that Trudeau would launch his leadership bid the following week.[67][68] While Trudeau was seen as a frontrunner for the leadership of the Liberal Party, he was criticized for his perceived lack of substance.[69][70] During his time as a Member of Parliament he spoke little on policy matters and it was not known where he stood on many issues such as the economy and foreign affairs.[71][72]

Essentially, Trudeau started "campaigning Oct 2012", thus all he missed was Oct, Nov, Dec.

 

If you go to the big table, it really shows that the NDP and many of them speak a lot in the House of Commons. That is amazing.

Brachina

 Justin loves running, but he hates the actual job of being an MP.  I'd love to see how Justin faired in previous years.

socialdemocrati...

And before the Liberal party tries to spin it as being excluded as a third party... Justin Trudeau actually spoke the least out of any other Liberal MP. The median for the Liberals appears to be around 30,000. Justin is down among the conservative back benchers at 5000. Even Ruth Ellen Brosseau -- who the Liberals have so much disdain for -- spoke for 17,000.

 

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

socialdemocraticmiddle wrote:

And before the Liberal party tries to spin it as being excluded as a third party... Justin Trudeau actually spoke the least out of any other Liberal MP. The median for the Liberals appears to be around 30,000. Justin is down among the conservative back benchers at 5000. Even Ruth Ellen Brosseau -- who the Liberals have so much disdain for -- spoke for 17,000.

 

 

This is another reason I can hardly wait for 2015. I am CERTAIN Le Dauphin will campaign in her riding with some vigor and when she BURIES their HAND-PICKED candidate, I will LAUGH!

janfromthebruce

Personally, I see Trudeau Jr. as a lazy MP. He has not championed anything in the House.

Brachina

Outvof curisty why is he called Le Dauphin?

Brachina

http://www.ipolitics.ca/2013/04/12/jack-layton-has-been-donating-generou...

Not even death stops Jack from supporting the party!

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

Brachina wrote:
Outvof curisty why is he called Le Dauphin?

From Wikipedia:

Wikipedia wrote:

The Dauphin of France (French: Dauphin de France, IPA: [dofɛ̃])—strictly, The Dauphin of Viennois (Dauphin de Viennois)—was the title given to the heir apparent to the throne of France from 1350 to 1791, and from 1824 to 1830. The word is French for dolphin, as a reference to the depiction of the marine mammal they bore on their coat of arms.

Brachina

Ah thank you.

Hamiltonian

BC election needs to be a lesson for federal NDP -- job creation trumps pipeline environmental concerns when framed either-or. Trudeau Liberals will certainly try the same tactics in the next fed election. Fed NDP needs to find a way to successfully reframe this issue. I believe our messaging should be centre around the single message of job creation -- it speaks to our base and is attractive to ppl who don't traditionally vote NDP. Lessons learned from BC is that job training is not enough -- ppl want concrete prospects. I also believe the federal NDP should memic Andrea Horwath ads - they are light, funny but very critical of opposition. We need to be producing these campaigns now before Trudeau successfully steals our image. His messaging is already very similar to Jack Layton's, minus the actual left platform.

knownothing knownothing's picture

Changing our policies on a few issues wouldn't have made any difference. The people in power do not want to give it up. They will stop at nothing. If anything, we should run harder to the left and give voters a clear option.

Hamiltonian

@knownothing since when is job creation not a left platform? I was speaking with women at a South Asian Spring Festival here in Hamilton over the weekend. They face extreamly high levels of unemployment or they are overworked at two, sometimes three minimum wage jobs and paid so low they still fall below the poverty line. Two weeks ago when US Steel locked out its workers for a third time I drove down to Nanticoke to visit my friend, union president Bill Ferguson. I spoke with some of the guys walking the line. Last time they were out 33 men lost their houses, countless others went bankrupt, live savings spent and marigages broke down. Devistating. These are the people we need to make front and centre in our campaign.

knownothing knownothing's picture

Job-creation is a left platform. Even if we run on that they will still call us the job-killing NDP.

You seemed to have been saying Dix shouldn't have came out against the pipelines, no?

Sure losing hurt us, but at least we can say we ran a positive campaign on protecting the environment. If people wanted the party of environmental degradation and debt, then so be it. Get ready for the next one.

socialdemocrati...

Job creation is definitely the top priority, and the most important message to win in 2015. (But I don't think the BC election can be attributed to a lack of focus on jobs.)

mark_alfred

I agree with Hamiltonian.  People vote out of self-interest.  So the NDP needs to show that voting for it is in people's best self-interest.  Campaigning on the idea of making a sacrifice for an unspecified greater good just won't wash.  So, if the NDP cannot communicate that its policies and its government will lead to a better life for the electorate, then it will lose.

Brachina

http://warrenkinsella.com/2013/05/what-i-am-eating-for-breakfast-this-mo...

One upside is the damage pollsters took, which in turn hurts Justin because his high polling numbers are part of the image he projects, so people lose faith in that they start to lose interest in Justin. Plus Pundits look bad, which means they have less influence, which given most are hostile is good.

While I often disagree with Warren he makes some good points while eating crow, a meal I myself and pretty much everyone on rabble is eating.

The old addage, always run like your losing seems apt as well.

mark_alfred

Petition to preserve the Canadian Museum of Civilization’s mandate and collections and to restore funding to Library and Archives and our national historic sites.  link

Brachina

I already signed it, good cause.

Anyway I think there is some major silver linings in Dix defeat for Mulcair.

1. He won't have to deal with Dix possibly becoming unpopular.

2. No one in the NDP will hold him back from going on the attack.

3. Justin's high polling numbers have now been put into question.

4. Also once again negative campaigning have been proven to work. Which suggest that Steven Harper's ads may work in the end.

5.One practical Step at a Time is discredited, which will maake more less push back when it comes to Mulcair polarizing things will be nil.

6. He can learn from Dix's mistakes.

7. Another leadership race if it occars will be a chances to increase membership in BC.

8. Christy Clark will surely piss off the public again by 2015.

Did I miss any silver linings.

janfromthebruce

I don't want Dix to step down because I actually think he will be a fantastic oppositional leader and keep the opposition in the press. Sorry but we know that when there is a leadership race the focus changes to that. Dix is not the problem. Let's not act like liberals here.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Dix is not the problem his party is.  They gave no one outside the party faithful a good reason to vote for them. The only people who voted for them are diehards like us. The BC party is controlled by the same people that controlled it 15 years ago and they keep making the same mistakes over and over again. It is a very tightly controlled party with little room for any grassroots initiatives. As far as I am concerned if you want to fight over the middle class vote then join the Liberal party not the one that used to be socialist.

If Mulcair runs from the centre as the leader of a liberal lite party he will also lose to a big smile and charisma. If he includes constitutional issues front and centre it will be a meltdown.

knownothing knownothing's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Dix is not the problem his party is.  They gave no one outside the party faithful a good reason to vote for them. The only people who voted for them are diehards like us. The BC party is controlled by the same people that controlled it 15 years ago and they keep making the same mistakes over and over again. It is a very tightly controlled party with little room for any grassroots initiatives.

Sounds like the SNDP

Pages

Topic locked