The NDP needs to change what before the next election? part IV

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Stockholm

If the best thing that can be said about Rae is that he isn't hate "as much" as Harris - that isn't saying much. If i was a Liberal, i think I'd want a new leader who was more than just "not as hated as Harris".

Fidel

Rae disagreed with the NDP's stand against globalisation and neoliberal dogma. A redundant Liberal Party's the best place for him now. 

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

Bob Rae polls best in B.C. and well in Ontario - not so well elsewhere

http://www.robbinssceresearch.com/polls/poll_541.html

Benoit

At one point the NDP will have to change its name. A political party cannot stay new forever. I suggest a name that can indicate a perpetual democratic renewal: Deliberative Democracy Movement (DDM).  

Stockholm

It is an insult to the polling insdustry to call anything by that delusional "robbins research" a poll. Just reading their release it sounds like someone having an acid trip and talking into a dictophone.

Benoit

The polling industry itself would be less of an insult to democracy if it was organizing large scale focus groups instead of individualized telephone calls.

KenS

You are just plain weird.

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

Stockholm wrote:
It is an insult to the polling insdustry to call anything by that delusional "robbins research" a poll. Just reading their release it sounds like someone having an acid trip and talking into a dictophone.
A strange polling question, no doubt. (Why bring Charest into the mix?) But it actually addresses the question of Rae's popularity in Ontario, and actual polling was done, so I figured it was useful to cite.

At the very least, it is more useful than pulling my opinion out of my ass once again. You should consider finding such alternatives yourself occasionally.

Stockholm

I don't think its useful to cite a "poll" from a company that no one has ever heard of and that is written up in the style of some bizarre Timothy Leary acid-induced stream of consciousness. Who knows if they actually phoned anyone or just made it up based on what they heard in a seance??

The fact that Jean Charest is listed as one of the three contenders when he isn't even rumoured to be running makes the whole thing absurd. Also, if you refer to Bob Rae as "Ontario Liberal MP and former Liberal leadership contender and for Premier of Ontario" a certain number of people will just react to the name recognition. We know that Rae got 20% on the first ballot at the last Liberal convention, so obviously he has support in some quarters - but that doesn't take away from the fact that he would be a gigantic liability to the Liberals is he led them into an election at the height of a recesion. 

"At the very least, it is more useful than pulling my opinion out of my
ass once again. You should consider finding such alternatives yourself
occasionally."

 

It's called an election where MILLIONS of people voted. Ontarians rendered their verdict on Bob Rae in 1995 - nothing more need be said. If you think he can pose as the man to deal with the recession because he has "experience", maybe the Tories should bring back Mulroney - he has experience too. Or maybe if the US gets involved in more wars - it would be a good time for Bush to make a comeback - since he has "experience" getting the US into wars.

Stockholm

I don't know why your being so defensive about Bob Rae -  unless you're a Tory who wants the the Liberals to pick the weakest possible leader so that Harper can get a majority next time.

He would be a terrible choice for the Liberals on every level. He would be turned into a mincemeat by the Tories as the most incompetent Premier Ontario ever had, PLUS, any hope of there being a Liberal minority government with NDP support would be extinguished because their is so much hatred between Rae and the NDP - its hard to imagine him even being able to sit in the same room with anyone from the NDP since the bad vibes would be so intense.

Of course this is all academic. I'm starting to suspect that Iggy is going to build up a big lead and after the Liberals have their "super weekend", he may clinch a first ballot win before any votes are actually cast at the convention. Already, Gerard Kennedy's top people are all going to Iggy.

The only question in my mind is whether after losing a second time in a row - this time to his nemesis Ignatieff, does Bob Rae sulk and have a hissy fit and quit politics again rather than serve under Iggy - a bitter and financially bankrupt man. 

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

... I must disengage. There's nothing to be gained by continuing.

janfromthebruce

"Already, Gerard Kennedy's top people are all going to Iggy." 

Which is interesting in itself as Kennedy likes to portray himself as a centre left candidate/liberal and thus those who would support his candidacy would be centre left folk.  So perhaps it suggests 2 things: politics within politics (consider the future event of another leadership race where one runs against a centre right leader (Iggy) or runs against a supposed centre-left candidate Rae), or Kennedy is not what he portray's himself to be. Of course the 3rd possibility, is about winning and Iggy appears on first blush to put libs on a winning footing (perhaps). 

Personally, if Rae loses this leadership contest, I don't think he will stick around for the next election. Just being used as a NDP bashing ram - at his age and statue - is well just rideculous. Of course, he might just become an independent PM (depending on the direction the libs take in the House in opposition). 


 

 Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!

Stockholm

What makes you think that there is the slightest ideological diffeence between Rae and Iggy? I just see them as personal rivals. If anything, Rae is so eager to "exorcise" his NDP past and has been so busy attacking the NDP in such a vicious personal way - i actually think that if elected Rae would be the most rightwing PM of any of the Liberal cotenders. He would feel he had to bend over so far backwards to prove what "lessons" he learned as NDP premier of Ontario that he would be the consymmate neo-con.

janfromthebruce

I was talking about "appearances" and not necessarily "real differences." That said, there appears within your comment that Rae - in order to change his appearance from left to right of centre - would act as more rightwing than he actually is. So it appears that you reaffirmed that he is more than about appearances. 

Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!

Stockholm

I don't think that Rae would "act more rightwing than he really is". I thnik that his views have evolved and that he actually IS way more rightwing than people may think.

Bob Rae - Canada's Joe Lieberman. 

Max Bialystock

Nah that would be Irwin Cotler - but he's supporting Rae.

Benoit

KenS wrote:
You are just plain weird.

What is weird is what an anonymous mass of isolated individuals can say over a telecommunication instrument.

KenS

That is perhaps mildly weird.

You are REALLY weird.

Benoit

Too soon for you to tell, I joined one month ago.

Fidel

Benoit wrote:

KenS wrote:
You are just plain weird.

What is weird is what an anonymous mass of isolated individuals can say over a telecommunication instrument.

Anonymous-shanonymous. Some of us do declare other things for the sake of clarity.

adma

janfromthebruce wrote:

Personally, if Rae loses this leadership contest, I don't think he will stick around for the next election. Just being used as a NDP bashing ram - at his age and statue - is well just rideculous. Of course, he might just become an independent PM (depending on the direction the libs take in the House in opposition). 

 

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if he does stick around, because if I take a non-partisan and perhaps devil's advocate standpoint, for all his political slipperiness, Rae's an excellent parliamentarian, and he can probably happily coast on that for the rest of his political career--maybe more so than he would with the burden of leadership.

 

As an NDPer, he was at his best in Ottawa; and as a performer on the political stage, he's basically picking up where he left off when he moved to provincial politics.  Only with a different party and yes, perhaps, thank goodness and/or good riddance--but he's still got the chops, and he knows it, even if he's sociopathically thumbing his nose at his former fairweather partisanship in the process.

 

At the very least, Rae's more likely to stick around if he loses, than Iggy is if he loses.  (Of course, this kind of "excellent parliamentarian" behaviour may help explain present-day cynicism about electoral politics; but, oh well.)

 

 

Benoit

Fidel wrote:
Benoit wrote:

KenS wrote:
You are just plain weird.

What is weird is what an anonymous mass of isolated individuals can say over a telecommunication instrument.

Anonymous-shanonymous. Some of us do declare other things for the sake of clarity.

The Left has nothing to gain and everything to lose from individualism.

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

Would you two just get a room, so we don't have to observe this bizarre  courtship?

KenS

Benoit wrote:
Too soon for you to tell, I joined one month ago.

Really. I've sure seen a lot of you in a mere month.

Maybe only a month of elapsed time. But plenty of volume to process.

KenS

Not sure who is at the other end of the courtship you are referring to LTJ.

But I guess I'm not helping matters.

 

Benoit

It is a thread about change not about the familiar.

tostig

Agreement with Liberals and Bloc to run candidates strategically so vote-splitting will end and defeat the Conservatives.

Stockholm

That's a moot point since the Liberals are a centre right party and they have made it perfectly clera that they will NEVER pull any candidates anywhere. During the recent federal election, Dion said in no uncertain terms that he would NEVER cooperate with the NDP and that he prefers Harper to Layton - nothing more need be said.

I'll be very curious to see if Rae or Iggy or Leblanc will propose trying to work with the other opposition parties. I am 99% certain that they will say NO! and the shady deal with Elizabeth May will never be repeated either.

The only vote splitting is from all the people who loathe Stephane Dion who (thank God) had an alternative to the Tories and were able to vote NDP while still showing their contempt for Dion and his hated carbon tax.

Imagine if in every riding people had had to choose between just the Harper candidate or the Dion candidate - Canada would have a Tory majority government. The only thing that saved Canada from that fate was having the BQ and the NDP both popular enough that they prevented all the anti-Liberal votes from coalescing behind the Tories. 

Fidel

Stockholm wrote:
He would be a terrible choice for the Liberals on every level. He would be turned into a mincemeat by the Tories as the most incompetent Premier Ontario ever had, PLUS, any hope of there being a Liberal minority government with NDP support would be extinguished because their is so much hatred between Rae and the NDP - its hard to imagine him even being able to sit in the same room with anyone from the NDP since the bad vibes would be so intense.

Of course this is all academic.

I think the academics would be kinder with Rae's record as Ontario premier. It's the spinmeisters who've created the false impression that Bob Rae's NDP was incompetent. They tend to forget the incompetence which led to the recession and "unforseen" budget deficits handed off to the ONDP. And they neglect to mention the Mulroney-induced nation wide recession at the time. Academics don't always describe things from such narrow and biased points of view, whereas political spinmeisters aren't bothered with facts and surrounding circumstances. What will the next ONDP government do if and when they are handed another economy in the tank and annual budget deficit of half a billion dollars as things stand now? Like Tommy Douglas did in Saskatchewan, the next NDP government in Ontario will need more than one term to fix what's broken and neglected for too long.

Malcolm Malcolm's picture

There is inevitably a competence problem when you have an entire team with no experience - as was the case with the ONDP in 1990.

 

Of course, a leader who is half-assed competent will seek out and absorb the advice of those who have successful resords of achievement in the same role.

 

It's a pity that experienced New Democrats elsewhere in Canada - Allan Blakeney, for example - refused to offer Bob Rae any advice.

 

Oh, but wait.

 

Allan Blakeney did offer Bob Rae advice - and offered to be available for more.

 

But Bob Rae was too much of an arrogant prick to listen.

 

After all, what could Allan Blakeney know that would be useful?  He'd only been a senior minister in the Cabinet that implemented universal health care in the face of an American funded doctor's strike.  And he'd led a successful NDP government for 11 years.  What the hell could he possibly know that would be of any use at the centre of the effing universe?

 

(In his first memoir, to his credit, Rae admits that his failure to listen to experienced New Democrats was a serious mistake.)

Fidel

I think the NDP should go with American style attack ads targeting the Liberals and their record in power and phony opposition. Just keep plugging away at the soft Liberal support base.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Once in power will the NDP continue producing attack ads focussed on the Liberals at the taxpayers expense?

Cueball Cueball's picture

Dippergirl wrote:
Benoit wrote:

The NDP needs to change its discourse about the cars produced in the south of Ontario. It is not enough to say that this sector is providing good paying jobs to Canadian families. The car culture is also the main culprit when it comes to the degradation of our social and natural environments.

Wasn't Layton going on about the "green" sector or something during the last election? As if the goal is to begin manufacturing environmentally-friendly vehicles at places such as the Oshawa GM plant?

 I believe that was a CAW initiative, or one closely mimicking something that came from the office of the Great Satan.

It's a very sad thread really, I have looked it over, and other than VJ's suggestion that the NDP needs to be credible on the environment in order to attract Green votes, I found not a single policy suggestion in this thread at all, just talk about "positioning", and the obligatory debate about which potential Liberal leader would be the best opponent for the NDP. One really shakes ones head when NDP'rs are betting their future, not on the strength of its own leadership, but the on weakness of the leadership of its opponents.

Very sad.

Good link from Aristotle, some of which bears repeating in this thread:

Quote:
Vision
The NDP was wise to take Harper’s theme and attack him as strongly as it did. Question is, what would the NDP do differently? That’s not always clear. Almost every ad this past campaign had an attack on someone else, and while each one individually may have tested well among focus groups, cumulatively it could easily give the impression that the NDP has nothing to offer but attacks. Put another way, the question the NDP needs to answer is: “without referring to the other parties at all, what would you do?”

This thread needs vision.

Fidel

Cueball wrote:
Once in power will the NDP continue producing attack ads focussed on the Liberals at the taxpayers expense?

Then the NDP begin repairing damage done by Neo-Liberal Liberals since 1994. Ad scandals involving arrogant politicians and embedded bureaucrats will not be necessary at that point. 

Cueball Cueball's picture

Tedium.

Fidel

Yes, all that second-hand economic ideology they've been doing in Ottawa for the last 28 years is pretty uninspiring stuff when one actually sifts through it.

David Young

It's Me D wrote:

quote:


One thing Jack Layton needs to do is not to go to safe seats like Halifax (twice) during the election, but go to winnable seats like SOUTH SHORE-ST. MARGARET'S to be seen with the local candidate.

I hope Jack will find time to come here to S.S.S.M. over the next while, as this must be the NDP's #1 targeted riding in Canada!


David did Jack never stop by SSSM this election? He's certainly been there before... in fact my favorite Jack memory (lol) is of him participating in a community theater production in Mahone Bay as a fundraiser for the local riding, along with Darrel Dexter [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]

No, Jack didn't make it to South Shore-St. Margaret's during the election.  But we're hoping he will make it to another fund-raising dinner theatre event being scheduled for Valentine's Day, Saturday, February 14th in Oakhill, just outside of Bridgewater.

I had to miss the event in Mahone Bay, but I'm certainly going to be part of the next one, tentative titled 'Fall in Love....with the NDP!'

madmax

West Coast Greeny wrote:

The time for the NDP to have changed something has come and gone. Last election was their time to move ahead of the Liberals... or at least the Bloc Quebecois. The economy went into its worst tailspin in 70 years, the Liberal Party was at its weakest - from the leadership down to the grassroots since confederation. The NDP outfundraised them by a margin of 2:1.

 They should have gained votes this election. They didn't.

They should have moved ahead of the Liberal Party - or at least the Bloc - in the seat count. They didn't.

They should have made inroads in Quebec. They barely held on to Outremont.

This was the NDPs last, best chance to establish themselves as the true alternative to government. If they couldn't make significant inroads in this election, then when can they? The party can't seem to ever manage to pull more than 20% of the vote... or to use Fidel's "math" more than a 13% fringe of the electorate.

I don't think there is much the NDP can do to increase thier share of power next election. The Liberals are going to come back, with a stronger leader in either Ignatieff or Rae, and with increased fundraising capacity. With either leader, they will be far more effective at targeting the left.

You could be correct in your assessment, but counter balance that with this.

The NDP held their vote when major parties lost. The NDP received more seats in Ontario then any previous time in their history. The NDP is 2nd in all Provinces west of Ontario in popular vote. And then this analysis.

 

 

--------------------------------

  Reasearch just published on the results of the October Federal election shows that the new party rising in the West to challenge the Ottawa power base is the NDP. Even in Alberta, where the NDP won a seat they came in second place across the province over all.  

Liberals ran third behind the NDP in every last western province. While New Democrats came second in 46 western ridings, Liberals came second in only 24 ridings. And, again in 24 western seats, Liberals placed fourth behind the Greens and Independents. Of 42 seats up for grabs in Alberta and Saskatchewan, Liberals won just a single seat -- belonging to veteran Grit Ralph Goodale.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have no crystal ball for the next election. 

 

 

 

Stockholm

Let's also not forget that this was an election where the economy became the dominant issue. in the past, the conventional wisdom was that the NDP would be a big loser because supposedly the NDP doesn't have enough credibility on economic issues. In this election, against all odds the NDP managed to gain support despite an election that revolved around who could manage the economy.

Buddy Kat

There is no question what the ndp needs to change before any election....You can't go a day watching tv where you see right wing values promoted and rammed down our throats. Even worse is when left wing values are mocked or made fun off or just laughed off.

If the ndp wants to make any in roads and break the 20% barrier they will have to fight fire with fire.


In other words they need a nationwide TV channel. even if they just have a babble front page or text only. They need the power of the mass in your face media.

For starters go here:

http://www.telesat.ca/default2.asp

then here:

http://www.telesat.ca/solutions/broadcast/index-e.asp

rent a damn transponder.....then go here:

http://www.rogers.com/web/resources/service/selectLanguageNonFlash.jsp?t...

So every Canadian can have access to a balanced view.

Until the NDP can get there message out en masse and crush the right wing liars, they will go nowhere except hover around 20% forever.

The internet is too problematic. prone to virus's..slow speed problems and frustrating for the majority of people. TV is still where it's at.

Buddy Kat

There is no question what the ndp needs to change before any election....You can't go a day watching tv where you see right wing values promoted and rammed down our throats. Even worse is when left wing values are mocked or made fun off or just laughed off.

If the ndp wants to make any in roads and break the 20% barrier they will have to fight fire with fire.


In other words they need a nationwide TV channel. even if they just have a babble front page or text only. They need the power of the mass in your face media.

For starters go here:

http://www.telesat.ca/default2.asp

then here:

http://www.telesat.ca/solutions/broadcast/index-e.asp

rent a damn transponder.....then go here:

http://www.rogers.com/web/resources/service/selectLanguageNonFlash.jsp?t...

So every Canadian can have access to a balanced view.

Until the NDP can get there message out en masse and crush the right wing liars, they will go nowhere except hover around 20% forever.

The internet is too problematic. prone to virus's..slow speed problems and frustrating for the majority of people. TV is still where it's at.

Stockholm

I would conservatively estimate that the price of having your own network on basic cable that is there for no other reason than to promote leftwing policies would be several hundred million dollars a year - if you want to bankroll such an endeavour - I'm sure the NDP would be delighted to give you moral support.

Buddy Kat

I will probably check into the cost of renting a single transponder just to see. I remember in the 80's there were a few private individuals that had there own transponders and what was appealing was back then everything was scrambled but there transponders were in the clear. They operated there service from there own front yard. One a professor of religious study's the other a yoga lady.

It isn't all that complicated...the same technology that allows you to view say starchoice can also  allow you to uplink. Todays birds are so much better and transmitter requirements are so low...consider how gps works...no need for powerfull stations nowadays just a watt of power can get you there. You wouldn't have to be a full fledged network either, just a single computer at an office. The trick would be getting a big player like star choice..bell expressvu or rogers to carry your programming.

With the ndp only having 20% support...that may be enough to sustain an interest in such a channel. Advertising revenue can take care of costs.Cool

Buddy Kat

I will probably check into the cost of renting a single transponder just to see. I remember in the 80's there were a few private individuals that had there own transponders and what was appealing was back then everything was scrambled but there transponders were in the clear. They operated there service from there own front yard. One a professor of religious study's the other a yoga lady.

It isn't all that complicated...the same technology that allows you to view say starchoice can also  allow you to uplink. Todays birds are so much better and transmitter requirements are so low...consider how gps works...no need for powerfull stations nowadays just a watt of power can get you there. You wouldn't have to be a full fledged network either, just a single computer at an office. The trick would be getting a big player like star choice..bell expressvu or rogers to carry your programming.

With the ndp only having 20% support...that may be enough to sustain an interest in such a channel. Advertising revenue can take care of costs.Cool

Stockholm

Poeple will only watch a TV channel that has state pof the art production values and that knows how to "popularize" political news etc... and even then it usually fails - look at how attempts in the US to create leftwing "talk radio" like Air America quickly went bankrupt. Just because 18% of Canadians vote NDp in a federal election it doesn't mean that even a teeny minority of those people want to watch turgid lectures on neo-Marxist political economy during prime time hours.

If people are really hungry for altrenate view son public policy issues - all they have to do is visit rabble.ca!!

Malcolm Malcolm's picture

But Buddy Kat isn't entirely wrong.

 

I keep saying we need to learn from how the far right established themselves as dominant in the US from their nadir in 1964 to their long run of legislative dominance from the 80s through the 00s.

 

Part of what they did was establish a far right media presence, particularly in talk radio.  The details are less important than the fact that they found an entree to the media that allowed them to define the narrative with those very "ordinary folk" whose class interest was most vulnerable to the far right agenda.

the regina mom the regina mom's picture

Malcolm wrote:

we need to learn from how the far right established themselves as dominant in the US from their nadir in 1964 to their long run of legislative dominance from the 80s through the 00s.

 

Part of what they did was establish a far right media presence, particularly in talk radio.  The details are less important than the fact that they found an entree to the media that allowed them to define the narrative with those very "ordinary folk" whose class interest was most vulnerable to the far right agenda.

 

Uh-oh! Wink  I agree with Malcolm! The NDP needs to create a buzz, a presence among the "ordinary" and "average" families they go on and on about.  Right now, the NDP appears to be same old, same old -- another bunch of cats, orange ones, I guess. And, that's not going to win votes. 

So, instead of talking about kitchen tables, how about actually sitting at them?  And not just for a photo op!  Instead of photo ops and sound bites, how about buying a newspaper or some media enterprise, as Janfromthebruce suggests above?

AFAIC the party has disconnected from its roots.  And that's sad. It needs a presence that goes deep, that touches people's hearts.  Ha!  It needs a Poet Laureate! Laughing

 

Stockholm

"Right now, the NDP appears to be same old, same old -- another bunch of cats, orange ones, I guess."

 

I actually own a CD entitled "Orange Cats Make the Very Best Friends"!!

The fact remains that buying a TV network or a national newspapare costs HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of dollars - and then they invariably lose money year after year after year. Even CanWest and the National Post are losing money hand over fist. The NDP would literally have to file for bankruptcy protection if they tried to a network or a newspaper chain. Why not have the NDP buy one of the chartered banks while they are at it!!

On the bright side - we do have a new media that has TONS of progressive content and more and more it is superseding traditional media like TV and newspapers - its called the blogosphere and you are looking at it right now. 

Fidel

The blogosphere, it's a sphere of bloggers blogging in a spherical blogos world, blogospherically speaking. ahhem

the regina mom the regina mom's picture

Just lovin' the "can't choir" here.  Inability to dream big, eh?  *That* is what the NDP needs to change!

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