The NDP not serious about proportional representation - #4

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hsfreethinkers hsfreethinkers's picture

KenS wrote:

No one asked others to "do it for us." And if I wanted a free ride, I wouldnt be looking for it from people who act as if criticism isnt just the first step on the way to figuring out what to do, it makes you the expert.

 

Could you rephrase that, in English?

KenS

You said, no one is going to do it [create traction] for the NDP.

No one asked for that.

And if I did want a free ride, I wouldnt be looking for it here. Because here you have people who act is if criticism is not only the first step to figuring out what to do. They act as if the act of criticsm has utself shown the way to what to do.

siamdave

Fidel wrote:

siamdave wrote:
- why don't you guys try giving me a party I can feel good about supporting?

You can't get the country to where you think we should be from this square on the monopoly board. You're dreaming. And PR will require a democratic consensus across the country. The NDP will not be forcing PR on anyone in this country like Mulroney ramming a bill through Parliament in 1991 which made sweeping changes to the Bank of Canada Act and without any debate on the matter. That's not how democracy is supposed to work. The NDP will not be doing things Brian Baloney style anytime soon.

In the mean time, why not vote for a party that advocates for fuller employment policies that will help drive the country out of this situation of massive indebtedness to a private money creation machine and money speculators? They're dropping the country down a debt hole, and you're holding your breath until someone promises GCM Beijing style? Come on, work with us here. Get in the game, Dave.

"..Give your vote FOC to the very people creating the money and credit in this country. See if we care..." - that kind of stuff is just kind of petulant rhetoric, and makes one wonder if you really want to talk about anything, or you are just looking for Jonestown converts to plug into your program and be good little robots, doing as they're told and asking no hard questions. Which probably explains a good amount of your lack of converts the last 30 years. I've said many times, and it should be clear from my writing and comments, that I will not be voting for the Bay St parties now or ever - my point has been that I don't see any point in voting for the NDP if you aren't offering anything substantially different from these people, which you aren't. As other discussions have talked about - if people want the Libs, then they'll vote Lib - why bother with the NDP, which appear to just want to be Lib Light? 40% of Cdns are not voting - which means they don't like what is happening, but they see no reason to switch to the NDP. You really need to think about that. Same old same old is just not cutting it.

"...You can't get the country to where you think we should be from this square on the monopoly board. You're dreaming. And PR will require a democratic consensus across the country...."

?????? *I'm* dreaming?? Your "strategy" appears to be wait until somebody else does it, and then tag along. That's pretty pathetic, really. The NDP have been gaining no support the last 30 years - even though now 40% of the population do not vote at all, more than twice as many who vote NDP - and I suspect a lot of the reason for that is just because you refuse to take any serious stands about anything other than 'motherhood-apple pie' issues that everyone agrees with. The Libs are talking a good show too, about jobs, and taking care of people, and responsible finance, and the Cons are NOT saying they want to destroy jobs, etc - so what are you offering that is actually different? People are starting to understand that the Libs lie a lot about what they plan, as the Cons do - but they have no reason to believe the NDP, with their 'good show' talk, are going to govern any more truthfully if they ever got elected. People are, I think, starting to understand that things are pretty seriously wrong in our country - and hearing the same political parties shouting out the same old political platitudes day after week after month after year after decade is not resonating much with them, obviously. Again I point out - 40% of Cdns did not vote in the last election - if the NDP message is so good, why didn't a lot of these disillusioned voters come over to you? All the signs are saying you guys need to do something different if you actually want to start increasing your vote share - and all I see on these discussions is you digging in your heels, along with most others, when I suggest some serious things that would put you in a leadership position and distance you quite definitely from the others - and your response is to make a hex sign and start shouting NO CHANGE MORE OF THE SAME!!!. And what you're going to get is more of the same response. No guts, no glory, as we used to say in various contexts.

"..why not vote for a party that advocates for fuller employment policies .. " - I'm a bit confused here - which party is NOT advocating full employment? How does this separate you from anyone else?

"..They're dropping the country down a debt hole, and you're holding your breath until someone promises GCM Beijing style?.." That's just bizarre, Fidel, do you have any idea of the things I have learned and written about debt and money? They're robbing this country blind, and you people don't seem to care - me, on the other hand, I've been studying and learning and writing for years - and writing here for months - trying to wake people up about this massive debt scam, with virtually no response at all. If the message of your NDP is that you'll be nice little capitalist-lights and keep on allowing the banks to create and control the money, and borrow it from them and maintain that lovely debt that controls everything, and carry on being a nice subservient little government like the Libs and Cons if you get elected (hightly unlikely, but if) - I really have no interest at all. It seems you see this the same as PR - if somebody else leads, you'll follow - but that's just crap - people do not need or want more corporate ass-kissers here, they need somebody to stand up to these f****ers. This is THE major issue here in our time - the major parties are stealing this country for their capitalist masters, slashing programs left and right, and have been for 30 years, in the name of this completely fraudulent debt - and they're going to keep doing it until they are stopped. And if you are not interested in talking about this and standing tall and taking a leadership position, then I have no interest in supporting you - like, evidently, the other 40% of Canadians who don't bother voting anymore. You're just not saying anything that I find useful or interesting, that separates you from the other garbage politicians who are working for Bay St. As I have said many times, if you just want to be capitalist light, we are not on the same page at all - I think the evidence is pretty much conclusive that capitalism is a cancer in our society, is destroying whatever dreams we had of democracy in the name of installing a new capitalist-feudalism - and it must be removed, not bowed down to, not accomodated, not compromised with - it must be fought, defeated, and destroyed.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

KenS why don't you stop boxing with your nefarious shadow people and discuss the issues.  "you have people who act" and "they act" are divisive statements with a distinct us against them attitude where you are once again on the side of the angels.  

hsfreethinkers hsfreethinkers's picture

@siamdave - great post.

KenS wrote:
You said, no one is going to do it [create traction] for the NDP. No one asked for that. And if I did want a free ride, I wouldnt be looking for it here. Because here you have people who act is if criticism is not only the first step to figuring out what to do. They act as if the act of criticsm has utself shown the way to what to do.

Well, I'm not a profession PR (public relations) person nor a professional political advisor, so you can't expect a complete plan from me. Criticism is mostly what you'll get. Constructive criticism hopefully. I've said this before (ages ago), that the thing that's holding me back from being a gung-ho NDP supporter is the kind of stuff siamdave mentions. The NDP are too cautious and they are morphing into the Liberals. I don't want to vote for Liberal policies, or Liberal light. I'd like to see the NDP present more like the Greens - more open and with policies clearly laid out for all to see like in Vision Green. The NDP ought to be more savvy is they are truly representing the "left". I mean, where are all the artists and the hip city folk? Can't the NDP get some talent to start some campaigns on some key issues? The NDP ought to focus on no more than five key issues and start some NDP campaigns - here's three: (1) proportional representation, (2) environmental protection and global warming, (3) monetary reform. Those key issues should be the ones they want the public to vote for them for. They have to convince the voters to vote for them because of these key issues, identifying the problem that the NDP intends to fix. It isn't rocket science. The problem is, if the NDP doesn't actually have any principles then they can't ever settle on any key issues. And what if polls suggest voters don't want XYZ - or what if the Liberals or the media makes fun of them? Can't have that. See - the NDP is chicken shit it seems to me. Playing the cynical political game that people have lost interest in. Dobbin mentioned home heating in a recent article. Home heating?! Ha!

 

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Closing for length.

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