NPD surging in Quebec - Part 3

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KenS

$26/week for elder care is a cruel joke.

Sean in Ottawa

isn't it.

Where is Debater to, um, well, Debate?

thorin_bane

slide to the side...Actually I expect him to show up and say "at least its a start" Which to their credit it is. Its too bad the MSM didn't pay more attention to ...oh i don't know the NDP platform that has called out for such for a long time. Today was horrible on P&P. I have to say Evan is taking a lot of flak for his neophyte approach to politics and what appears to be a severe leaning to the conservatives.
This makes thorin happy. But I guess it goes back to the whole argument of harper making all public institutions horrible to the canadian people. As it stands, I have a hard time wanting the CBC to remain public as I know its the only alternative to the even wosre global and CTV. But my belief has been shattered as the pro con forces working at the CBC have made it a poisoned chalice to those on the left.

KenS

Debater doesnt do much defending of Liberal policies.

Based on what we read here, I would say that he typifies disgruntled Liberals who like what the NDP does, but who still think the Liberals are the best hope.

And irregardless of policy inclinations, special efforts are made to see whatever light there is in the Liberal strategic prospects tunnel; and conversely, to feature the darkness in the NDP cave.

JKR

NorthReport wrote:

My hunch is that the Ignatieff Liberals are going to crash and burn, down possibly to around 50 seats whenever the next election is called,...

My hunch is that someone is rooting for a Conservative majority.

 

NorthReport wrote:

I gather you are not a big fan of the NDP or the Cons.

I gather you are one of those rare birds, a big fan of the Conservatives and NDP.

 

 

NorthReport wrote:

The Liberals may not have noticed it, but the Conservatives sure did. The prime minister even questioned whether the Liberals are promoting smoking.

http://www.cbc.ca/politics/insidepolitics/2010/10/butting-out-the-vanish...

 

Here are some other stories, just as interesting as how the Liberals want Canadians to take up smoking:

Parliament construction contract probed by RCMP

Quote:

The RCMP is investigating one of the construction contracts awarded for the nearly $1-billion project to renovate the West Block of Parliament, a Radio-Canada/Globe and Mail investigation has learned.

The tendering process to repair the Parliament buildings began in 2007. Paul Sauvé, a Montrealer who owns the brick-laying company LM Sauvé, told Radio-Canada he hired Gilles Varin to lobby for him so he could win a government contract that could be worth millions of dollars.

Varin, a long-time Quebec Conservative supporter, was not a registered lobbyist.

Sauvé said Varin claimed he had very close friends who worked for Public Works Canada. Sauvé said he agreed to pay Varin a monthly retainer averaging $4,000.

After LM Sauvé won a $9-million contract, Sauvé began to make larger payments to Varin — an extra $70,000 plus taxes. In all, Sauvé said, he paid more than $140,000 to Varin's company.

In July 2008, Prime Minister Stephen Harper cracked down on lobbyists, making it illegal for someone to collect bonuses for contracts awarded.

Varin told Radio-Canada that he felt he didn't need to register as a lobbyist because all he did was pass along Sauvé's resumé to a friend. He also denied receiving any bonuses.

But Varin did speak with Hubert Pichet, a staff member of Conservative Senator Pierre-Claude Nolin. Pichet confirmed to Radio-Canada that Varin asked for contacts in the Public Works's minister's office.

 

Industry Canada queried Bernier census claims

Quote:

An Industry Canada employee questioned Conservative MP Maxime Bernier's claims in July that as minister he received about 1,000 complaints a day about the mandatory long-form census, internal documents obtained by CBC News show.

 The former industry minister, now a Conservative backbencher, said in July of this year that he was blitzed by complaints when he oversaw the 2006 census as minister.

However, in a July 18 email found among documents obtained by CBC News through an access-to-information request, ministry employee Paul Halucha asked a high-ranking official at Statistics Canada whether the agency had any numbers to back up Bernier's statement.

Industry Canada's "internal survey of correspondence did not show anything close to a thousand a day," he wrote to Statistics Canada's Connie Graziadei, adding in brackets "we got a standard 25-30 a year."

The documents suggest officials inside the ministry responsible for the census were themselves caught flat-footed by Bernier's contention that the government had been inundated with complaints over the 2006 survey.

 

NorthReport

Duceppe hands Harper fresh anti-coalition ammunition

 

http://www.thestar.com/article/870962--hebert-duceppe-hands-harper-fresh...

NorthReport

Brought to you by a Liberal or a Conservative near you.

No wonder Ignatieff keeps Harper in power, eh!

 

Tax-exempt fortunes feed inequality

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorialopinion/article/870605--mcquaig-...

thorin_bane

Meh this is just hebert being the nihilist she is. She deosn't like any of the parties, but this sure sin't helping the perception of the coalition outside quebec.

Doug

I liked the TV commercial for that - best campaign ad I've seen that wasn't a campaign ad.

NorthReport

NDP worked from its own documents in coalition talks

 

 

So all that to say:

The New Democrats developed our draft policy proposals in a series of meetings that weekend led by Jack Layton (who consulted his caucus at several points), Allan Blakeney and Ed Broadbent, working with our policy staff. We then presented our proposals to the Liberals about midday on Sunday, Nov. 30.

A Liberal team prepared and presented a detailed Liberal counter-proposal late that afternoon, which we accepted after some deliberation.

This was then described to a Bloc Quebecois team led by Mr. Duceppe's chief of staff early that evening. As I recall they made a couple of useful suggestions (notably on toughening up the environmental plank) but did not add anything that stuck in my mind to the economic agenda.

They were not involved in any of the exchanges between the two coalition partners until that point.

With the greatest of respect to Mr. Duceppe, who is an able parliamentarian and had a number of wise things to say about the coalition proposal during this period, the Bloc Quebecois's platform and policies did not have any influence whatsoever on our thinking or on our proposals. The New Democrat team worked from our own platform, which (again, at variance from what Mr. Duceppe is suggesting) had been carefully costed out (we presented our forecasts at a press conference during the campaign, as was widely reported at the time).

I was the NDP team's lead negotiator and can report that the Bloc's platform certainly did not influence my own thinking, since I had never read it in any detail and had last flipped through it several months before during the campaign.

As a general proposition the Bloc frames its proposals in the exclusive interest of one province. So their proposals are often of limited utility, and are therefore not always carefully read by people in other parties.

Nor did I hear anyone ever refer to a Bloc policy platform or other document at any point that weekend.

That said, when they are not in dog-in-the-manger mode, the Bloc broadly echoes NDP policy on many issues. This underlying like-mindedness was an important element in securing their support for the proposed Liberal-NDP coalition government, to be sure.

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/second-reading/brian-topp/n...

NorthReport

I trust everyone is ready for the rah, rah Liberals / CBC / Toronto Star / EKOS poll tomorrow. Laughing 

 

 

 

Pat Martin unloads both cliched barrels on renovation contract

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/pat-martin-...

Debater

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

isn't it.

Where is Debater to, um, well, Debate?

Why debate the same old stuff on this thread?  From what I can see, it is a typical NR thread - full of predictions of the Liberals collapsing to 50 seats in the next election and the Conservatives winning a majority.  Haven't we seen enough of these predictions by now?  They are never substantiated by anything of substance.

According to a special report on seat projections this week by The Globe and Mail, the Liberals are currently projected to pick up 25 seats in the next election, while the NDP is projected to lose seats, and the Conservatives would end up with another minority - a smaller one.  Quite a different picture than NR's predictions:

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ndp-pain-means-liberal-gain...

NorthReport

How convenient that Debater misses this article in the same paper yet. Laughing

 

Michael Ignatieff 'frustrated' with Liberal stagnation in polls

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/michael-ign...

JKR

Debater wrote:

Why debate the same old stuff on this thread?  From what I can see, it is a typical NR thread - full of predictions of the Liberals collapsing to 50 seats in the next election and the Conservatives winning a majority.  Haven't we seen enough of these predictions by now?  They are never substantiated by anything of substance.

According to a special report on seat projections this week by The Globe and Mail, the Liberals are currently projected to pick up 25 seats in the next election, while the NDP is projected to lose seats, and the Conservatives would end up with another minority - a smaller one.  Quite a different picture than NR's predictions:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ndp-pain-means-liberal-gain...

 

 

NorthReport wrote:

How convenient that Debater misses this article in the same paper yet. Laughing

 

Michael Ignatieff 'frustrated' with Liberal stagnation in polls

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/michael-ign...

 

I wonder who will win this "Battle of the Spin Doctors"?

I wonder what babble would look like if we had less back and forth about the parties and more discussion about  the issues?

 

The more important debate is not about the parties but about:

The People Versus The Powerful

As long as the NDP juxtaposes themselves against the Liberal and Conservatives, the general public will continue to view the party as just another self-serving entity.

But if the NDP could juxtapose itself as being for the people versus the powerful elite who have subverted things, the NDP could really get a movement going.

gadar

The effort to discredit a progressive source as a place bereft of ideas and meaningful discussion continues.

Sean in Ottawa

Gadar-- your post is too cryptic for me -- can you explain a bit more what you are referring to?

 

gadar

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Gadar-- your post is too cryptic for me -- can you explain a bit more what you are referring to?

 

My post was in response to JKR where he mentioned babble being more of a place to discuss ideas than spin and I cant agree more. I feel the constant spin discredits babble. I wonder if it is being done on purpose.

 

KenS

There are people who want to spin- which inevitably leads to people wanting to counter them.

Who needs deliberate discrediting?

gadar

KenS wrote:

There are people who want to spin- which inevitably leads to people wanting to counter them.

Who needs deliberate discrediting?

Anybody opposed to progressive ideas will be interested in disrediting babble or people whose political interests are served by it.

I dont claim to bring many bright ideas to the table, I come here to read other peoples ideas who i believe are smarter than I am. These days most of the time all we find is links to globe and mail or canwest rags predicting the downfall of ones political opponents.

Now only if we could have more threads like the discussion on fascism where issues are discussed rather than what jane taber had to say about liberals/cons/NDP.

Debater

NorthReport wrote:

How convenient that Debater misses this article in the same paper yet. Laughing

 

Michael Ignatieff 'frustrated' with Liberal stagnation in polls

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/michael-ign...

The Liberals ARE stagnant in the polls.  What's your point?  I never said otherwise.  Their performance still leaves a lot to be desired and until Ignatieff can convince Canadians that he can be an effective leader or be competent on the issue of the economy, I expect they'll stay that way.

That still doesn't change the projections made in The Globe and Mail's special report, and you still haven't come up with any mathematical data of your own to counter them.  Stop changing the subject.  You're predicting that the Liberals will lose 25 seats in the next election.  Make a list of the 25 ridings they will lose, and why they will lose them, or else you have no credibility on this subject.

KenS

@gadar:

The threads that are anchored in polling threads- and this is one of two right now- will wax and wane as to whethwer or not that is all they discuss.

And as long as they do discuss that- even if there are 'more serious' discussions at the same time in the same thread, there will be people who want to do spin.

Its a free space. And most people are at a more or less identifiable spot on a continuum of how much of which kind of posts they like to see. We all bring something in.

If you got your wish about more of what you think is a serious discussion, you'd find less discussion.

Flip side of that diversity is that for anyone there will be a significant amount of stuff far along on the continuum in the 'content direction' you dont really care for.

Sean in Ottawa

I'll follow the drift because it is an interesting point-- I think there are serious topics here that are extremely fascinating. There are also discussions for people to just entertain themselves. Polls are entertainment. There are no serious discussions here except those who try to convince others who see them as serious that they are not so.

This is like a library-- where there is pulp fiction like polls and there are serious books on very important topics. But the same people often want both or enjoy one and are intellectually stimulated by the other.

gadar

I am sorry for the thread drift but I for one am not intellectually stimulated by the con talking points but thats just me. If i wanted that I would go national post and read the comments. I have a ton of respect for the posters who bring in different viewpoints and back them up way more intelligently than i could ever do. But most of the times now all I see is propaganda bs. Propaganda based on logic is understandable, I will go to the globe and mail if i want to know what Norman Specter has to say about how silly Ignatieff is. Here I come read views of people who are followers of a similar stream of thought as I believe I have. I like to read what Sean or Ken or JKR and numerous other very smart people have to say about current events and politics. The whole debate on gun registry was stimulating even with varied viewpoints. It is fun to indulge in a bit of hypothetical fluff banter but I feel there is more and more of it.

I can understand where Ken and Sean are coming from that different things please different people. One last thing I would like to add is that for me this is a progressive space in the sea of reactionary thought but I cant help but notice the hijacking of this space on some days. I maybe totally wrong tho.

Anyhow I apologise for the thread drift again. Please do continue

Sean in Ottawa

Gadar your last post seems unclear-- I assume you mean the Con talking points in the mainstream media because you could read your post as suggesting someone here was giving Con talking points but there appears to be no such person in this thread.

No reason to be sorry for a drift-- it did not seem to be an attempt to derail just an interjection on a point raised. That I think is both fair and common here.

NorthReport

Tories most in tune with families

Cons  - 35%

NDP - 27%

Libs - only 19%  Jeesh!!!

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Tories+most+tune+with+families+Poll/364...

JKR

NorthReport wrote:

Tories most in tune with families

What does this have to do with the topic of this thread, "NDP surging in Quebec"?

 

Maybe this off topic post was made to take away attention from the "Conservative talking points" being discussed beforehand?

Whenever the Conservatives are being discussed negatively, does NorthReport interrupt the thread with a gratuitous pro-Conservative / anti-Liberal post which is often completely off-topic?

Spin, spin, spin,....

Supporting the Conservatives is OK but it should be done openly.

NorthReport

Oh, the poor Liberals. Unless it's all about them, they don't know how to act. 

I know it's a novel idea, but Liberals should try discussing policies for a change, instead of attacking personalities.  Who knows, they may even get some support that way.  Wink

JKR

NorthReport wrote:

Oh, the poor Liberals. Unless it's all about them, they don't know how to act.

That's a strange comment coming from someone whose posts are all about the dreaded Liberals.

And if If I'm a Liberal why do I get so much junk mail from the NDP and numerous left wing groups?

 

 

NorthReport wrote:

I know it's a novel idea, but Liberals should try discussing policies for a change, instead of attacking personalities.  Who knows, they may even get some support that way.  Wink

I know it's a novel idea, but how about sticking to the topic of a thread instead of spinning it to death.

If you want to post something off-topic, just start a new thread or would that lead to a proliferation of numerous anti-Liberal threads like we've seen in the past by a certain poster? Wink

 

NorthReport

So, it appears that Babble is not the only place where one thinks the Ignatieff Liberals could be reduced to 50 seats or less in the next election.

 

OK then, what are Canadian voters going to do about this?

 

My hunch is that it will not only be in Quebec where the Layton New Democrats, the only national party that truly opposes Harper, will be surging in the next election.

Harper majority closer than it appears in political mirror

 

 

 

In less than five years this Prime Minister has reduced once dominant Liberals to a rump and is closer than it appears to the majority he covets.

 

 

http://www.thestar.com/article/873018--travers-harper-majority-closer-th...

JKR

NorthReport wrote:

So, it appears that Babble is not the only place where one thinks the Ignatieff Liberals could be reduced to 50 seats or less in the next election.

So how many seats do you see the NDP getting in the next election? And what about the Conservatives, BQ, and Greens?

Or is your only focus the Liberals?

Sean in Ottawa

NR just to clarify-- do you think the Liberals getting under 60 seats is the most likely or just one possibility?

What do you think is the most likely result?

NorthReport

What do ya know, a Harper clone! Laughing

Hey look: Ignatieff hugs the new centre

 

http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/10/08/ignatieffs-shrinking-ambition/

NorthReport

You're forgiven if you can't tell the difference between these two.

 

Making us look bad

 

 

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Making+look/3648678/story.html

 

JKR

NorthReport wrote:

You're forgiven if you can't tell the difference between these two.

Making us look bad

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Making+look/3648678/story.html

Actually, this article highlights the difference between Harper and Ignatieff.

Harper and the Conservatives marginalization of the UN has been wrong and embarrassing for Canada.

Ignatieff was right in pointing out how hypocritical Harper is trying to take credit for getting a seat on the Security Council after marginalizing the UN.

 Harper was wrong for accusing Ignatieff of being a traitor to Canada for pointing out the Conservative's hypocrisy regarding the UN.

In the past Harper and the Conservatives have gone on foreign trips and underhandedly critisized Ignatieff. The Conservatives are the ones who have twisted foreign policy to further their domestic concerns.

 This article in the Ottawa Citizen is just more Conservative spin to get people to think Ignatieff is a traitor.

For some counterspin, here's an article from Rabble:

 Stephen Harper at the UN: The truth his speech will try to hide

Quote:
 
Even though he was Bush's advocate, I doubt anyone will accuse Harper of leaving a smell of sulfur behind at the UN rostrum today. But the Canadian Prime Minister will be speaking with a forked tongue, attempting to cover over his real record with a patina of platitudes.

The people of the developing world have seen what Canada has delivered on the international stage, in both words and deeds. Their UN representatives would do well to hold Harper accountable by denying his bid for a seat on the Security Council.

 

And NorthReport, why did you post this in the thread: "NPD surging in Quebec"?

NorthReport

Ignatieff has lived outside Canada for 30 years, holidays in France, and believes in torture. Traitor may not be the most accurate description, but if the shoe fits......

JKR

NorthReport wrote:

Ignatieff has lived outside Canada for 30 years, holidays in France, and believes in torture. Traitor may not be the most accurate description, but if the shoe fits......

Is this Babble or Free Dominion?

NR, why have you made it your role here to bring us the Conservatives inane talking points?

NorthReport

JKR,

Enough with the LPC talking points.

Trying debating the issues instead of this silly personal stuff.

 

gadar

NorthReport wrote:

JKR,

Enough with the LPC talking points.

Trying debating the issues instead of this silly personal stuff.

 

I cant see where JKR wrote a Liberal talking point.

You certainly wrote a Con talking point.

Now you can go ahead and say that I am a liberal and writing Liberal talking points.

NorthReport

No need, everyone already knows that. Laughing

 

What's this routine though, the Bobsey Twins?

 

gadar

See for a guy who likes to debate issues and demand that others provide facts. You sure bring a lot of arguements and facts to back up your points. And representing everyone again I see.

Sean in Ottawa

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

NR just to clarify-- do you think the Liberals getting under 60 seats is the most likely or just one possibility?

What do you think is the most likely result?

NR in your five last posts you did not answer this question -- can you give it a go-- perhaps you missed it?

JKR

NorthReport wrote:

JKR,

Enough with the LPC talking points.

Trying debating the issues instead of this silly personal stuff.

NR,

Have you ever thought that your over-the-top Conservative talking points may actually help the Liberals? Your talking points are made by right-wingers for a right-wing audience. Most progressives who might consider voting for the NDP are turned off by right-wing spin. If you want the NDP to make it to 25% in the polls, the NDP will have to persuade a lot of people who have traditionally supported the Liberals. Saying Ignatieff is pro-torture and a traitor will not get the NDP to 25%.

If you want to see progressive people who waver between the NDP and Liberals come to this site and promptly leave, just go ahead writing posts that look like they belong on Free Dominion.

thorin_bane

Sean NR never acknowledges anyones posts that don't agree with whatever crap is being spewed. Frankly its just weird. I made a polling thread because of polling proliferation and he made 2 other after that all about how poor the libs were doing. Rediculous. I guess making thread makes him feel special.

NorthReport

Sean,

I don't have a crystal ball, but I think it is quite reasonable to suggest the Ignatieff Liberals may well drop to around 50 seats in the next federal election. As long as the federal Liberals follow the undemocratic approach ( which is a strange situation for a party involved in politics eh), in choosing their Leader, they are doomed to serious failure. Ignatieff is a political light-wieght, constantly being sucker-punched by Harper, and most Canadians know it by now.

NorthReport

Meanwhile the NPD continues to gather energy and votes in Quebec

 

 

Coyne vs Mulcair: who won the debate?

Andrew Coyne 39.77% (589 votes)  

 

Thomas Mulcair 60.23% (892 votes)

 

http://www.cbc.ca/politics/insidepolitics/2010/10/coyne-vs-mulcair-who-w...

NorthReport

Bastards! 

Federal NDP leader Jack Layton takes on inequality

NDP Leader Jack Layton traces rising levels of inequality in Canada to the 1995 federal Liberal budget. That's when then-finance minister Paul Martin abolished national standards for welfare and sharply reduced transfer payments to the provinces.

During an October 12 interview at the Georgia Straight office, Layton said that the Liberals realized in the 1990s that they could cut programs, take surpluses out of the employment-insurance fund-"about $54 billion worth"-and give huge corporate tax cuts to large, successful companies. "The result was that income inequality began to grow," Layton claimed.

 

http://www.straight.com/article-353041/vancouver/jack-layton-takes-inequ...

NorthReport
JKR

NorthReport wrote:

Federal NDP leader Jack Layton takes on inequality

http://www.straight.com/article-353041/vancouver/jack-layton-takes-inequality

NR, this is a fabulous article that explains very well why people should vote for the NDP. Layton explains in good detail how NDP polices would work.

- National housing strategy
- National child care program
- Increase the child tax credit
- student grants
- strengthen CPP

  One thing about CPP. Wouldn't it make a lot of sense to take money from general revenues to augment the CPP?

Sean in Ottawa

NorthReport wrote:

Sean,

I don't have a crystal ball, but I think it is quite reasonable to suggest the Ignatieff Liberals may well drop to around 50 seats in the next federal election. As long as the federal Liberals follow the undemocratic approach ( which is a strange situation for a party involved in politics eh), in choosing their Leader, they are doomed to serious failure. Ignatieff is a political light-wieght, constantly being sucker-punched by Harper, and most Canadians know it by now.

Sorry but what you assert in one thread when asked to directly predict it you refuse in the next. Now you present it as a possibility and no more.

I also can agree it is a possibility-- just one that is extremely unlikely.

What do you actually think will be the most likely result? Are you effectively betting the Liberals will get no more than 50-some seats or not? The qualifications are effectively changing the meaning of your previous words. I can't discuss this with you as long as your words are a moving target. What in your view is a given and please avoid words like "may well" because you are sounding like Nosterdamus here. --- we could end up with a prediction like, if it does not rain... it will be nice.

ottawaobserver

I'm glad I clicked on that link NR shared from the Georgia Straight, because they got Elizabeth May on record opposing a strengthening of the CPP.

Elizabeth May, so-called progressive and friend of workers, ha! wrote:

Elizabeth May
Green Party of Canada leader

"I'm not sure why Jack would propose that. I think that's a very poor idea. It would constitute an additional burden for each employer for carrying employees. If I understand correctly, what he's put forward would actually have a negative impact on employment overall because that would create an additional burden for small business and it would reduce the paycheque of every employee."

Sweet mother of pearl, how does she suppose those small-business people and their employees are going to retire!  Someone needs to tell all the young people who are thinking of voting Green that Elizabeth May wants them to work as wage slaves for minimum wage now, and then starve when they're older, because no-one is starting new private pension plans anymore.  Layton is right in that article: people pay more in admin and management fees for their RRSPs right now than any increase they'd pay in premiums.

Anyways, good: she's shown her colours.  Though even I didn't think the Greens were that regressive.

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