Oppose Canadian military mission in Ukraine!

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Unionist
Oppose Canadian military mission in Ukraine!

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Unionist

[Continued from [url=http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/conservatives-ndp-liberals-una...

We need to bring our voices together urgently - political parties, civil society, social movements - and demand that Canada cease all interference in Ukraine.

It doesn't matter who you or I think are the good guys or bad guys. It doesn't matter whether some government "invites" us in or not. As with Iraq and Syria, Canada must be told: "Hands off Ukraine!"

How should we proceed?

 

Brachina

 What military mission? I agree with you Unionist, I don't support military mission in the Ukraine, I believe in a diplomatic solution, but I'd just like to know more please as I haven't heard anything about a military mission to the Ukraine.

Unionist

Sorry Brachina, forgot to provide links. Here's one of many:

[url=http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2015/04/14/canada-sends-200-military-... sends 200 military trainers to Ukraine[/url]

 

josh

Of course, the question is why.  And the answer is easy.

An Ottawa Citizen analysis shows that Canadians identifying themselves as being of Ukrainian represent a potentially game-changing voting bloc in dozens of federal ridings. The fact ridings with large Ukrainian-Canadian populations in Toronto, Winnipeg and parts of Saskatchewan were hotly contested in 2011 speaks to the importance of each party being active on Ukraine.

http://www.canada.com/Ukrainians+Canada+could+game+changers+federal+election/9578956/story.html

6079_Smith_W

No. Let's let those bombs explode and those planes crash. Let's not give them that medicine or those sleeping bags. This is so wrong.

 

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:
No. Let's let those bombs explode and those planes crash. Let's not give them that medicine or those sleeping bags. This is so wrong

yeah. And the phosphorus weapons used against Donetsk civilians, and the mass graves of civilians, and the incineration of peaceful protestors in Odessa, and the sniper fire in the Maidan from the Right Sector (now in government), and all the schools, hospitals, senior homes, water supplies, Orthodox churches, residential neighbourhoods that the Kiev putsch regime hasn't bombed yet.

Because the "sub-humans" in eastern Ukraine - as the Ukrainian PM calls them and as the viruoso pianist mockingly called herself - deserve to be "ethnically cleansed" just like the Palestinians deserve to be cleansed, the Syrians deserve, and all the other targets of the US regime and its vassals, like Canada, say so.

And when they're done cleansing everywhere else, they will continue with students in Quebec, and any babblers who are alive.

Because ... freedom! boo rah.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Unionist wrote:
How should we proceed?

Since war is the greatest of all crimes, by virtue of containing all other crimes within it, and since sending Canadian troops to Ukraine is furthering (civil) war, therefore any involvement of Canadian troops to further that war is a crime and should be opposed by all those Canucks who oppose aggressive wars.

ETA: One more major attack from the Kievan junta and, IMHO, the resistance will have little choice but to chase the regime down to its lair in Kiev, just like the junta's  hero was cornered in Berlin in 1945, with similar consequences.

Not one for boasting, Zahkarchenko (the DPR leader) has said as much. He's also said that Poroshenko will have to meet him (which the latter has refused to, etc.) either at Donetsk airport, or some other town, or Kiev, one way or another.

Stoking the fires of war is madness, a crime that Canada should be no part of. We should encourage and demand that both sides sit down - face to face - and negotiate and end the conflict. A child could figure this out. Sadly, the Canadian regime in Ottawa would rather see the dead litter Ukraine. Criminal indeed.

NDPP

Security Council Calls on Parties To Implement Accords Aimed At Peaceful Settlement

http://www.un.org/press/en/2015/sc11785.doc.htm

UN Minsk 2 Protocol / Ceasefire - Annex 1 'Package of Measues'

"10. Withdrawal of all foreign armed formations, military equipment, as well as mercenaries from the territory of Ukraine under monitoring of the OSCE. Disarmament of all illegal groups..."

Please note, this is the relevent UNSC  international agreement binding also upon Canada. By sending Canadian Forces styled as 'trainers' to Ukraine, Canada is subverting the above. Instead of 'withdrawal of all foreign armed formations', Canada is proposing to add to them.

 

* The Ukraine crisis has been exhaustively chronicled from the beginning, with contributions from both anti-war and pro-regime advocates.

http://rabble.ca/babble/international-news-and-politics/ukraine-3

lagatta

Notice the framing of that. I'm very much anti-war, and anti-regime(s) - both the crew in power in Ukraine, and the Putin regime. Idem most of the people I know, on the Québec left, if they think about the issue at all.

Unionist

6079_Smith_W wrote:

No. Let's let those bombs explode and those planes crash. Let's not give them that medicine or those sleeping bags. This is so wrong.

 

Also, teaching them to grow food. Helping their girls go to school without fear of attack by fundamentalist jihadis. And building wells and dams for irrigation. Helping them set up a multi-party electoral system. And air strikes.

The lessons of our assistance to other countries can be applied here. All we need is creative thinkers like the one who thinks we're giving people medicine and sleeping bags.

Any more ideas along those lines?

Or can we now ask - where do the Liberals, NDP, Greens, BQ and others stand? The trade unions? Students?

 

 

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

It is worth mentioning that the Ukrainian regime is itself subverting the peace process, such as it is, not only by resuming their bombing campaign, inviting foreign soldiers into their country (in violation of Minsk 2, and brazenly; while not a shread of evidence has been provided for the nth "Russian invasion" or "Russian units" assisting the Novorossiyans, the regime and its sponsors OPENLY invite foreign troops into putsch Ukraine), but also by blocking the efforts of the OSCE in its duties of confirming the pullback of heavier weapons  under Minsk 2 (by prohibiting OSCE staff from travelling here and there) and noisily calling for "peacekeepers" while having no peaceful intentions whatsoever.

In such a situation, putting pressure on the jackboot putsch regime out of Kiev is essential.

Instead, the opposite.

Just brainless.

 

Supplemental: Russian media has some OSCE documentation about violations of Minsk-2 by the Ukrainian putsch regime.

See - OSCE Documents Minsk II Protocol Violations by Ukraine

I know, I know. Why quote Russian media?

Because western media, by and large, isn't reporting this stuff.

montrealer58 montrealer58's picture

I second the following:

ikosmos wrote:

Unionist wrote:
How should we proceed?

Since war is the greatest of all crimes, by virtue of containing all other crimes within it, and since sending Canadian troops to Ukraine is furthering (civil) war, therefore any involvement of Canadian troops to further that war is a crime and should be opposed by all those Canucks who oppose aggressive wars.

6079_Smith_W

Stoking the fires of war with bomb disposal training, flight training, distribution of medicine and supplies is madness, but you have no problem cheerleading about pushing on to Kiev, ikosmos?

And Unionist, you forgot the bit about how it is supposed to automatically make me want to vote for Stephen Harper.

 

 

Unionist

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Stoking the fires of war with bomb disposal training, flight training, distribution of medicine and supplies is madness, but you have no problem cheerleading about pushing on to Kiev, ikosmos?

And Unionist, you forgot the bit about how it is supposed to automatically make me want to vote for Stephen Harper.

I have no further intention of responding to your despicable pro-war pro-Harper posts. Just so you know. I dearly wish others would push the "ignore" button on your cheerleading, at least for the purpose of determining the best way to stop Canada's heading for another military intervention.

 

Unionist

So the unprincipled little princeling Trudeau, eyeing Ukrainian-Canadian ridings, is kissing Harper's ass on this one - no surprise:

Quote:

Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau said his party supports the government’s training mission, given Canada’s longstanding support for Ukraine. Providing training assistance so Ukraine can defend its territory is “a responsible thing for Canada to do as part of an international effort,” he said.

Trudeau said the Conservative government lacked transparency and accountability on the Iraq mission, including over the fact Canadian troops were on the front lines. But the Liberal leader said he’s reassured the government “was so absolutely unequivocal” that the training in Ukraine will take place far from the front.

And Mulcair, who never misses an opportunity to change his position, has now forgotten even the mealy-mouthed "it's gotta be approved by NATO or the UN first". Didn't take him long, only a couple weeks. Looking for votes, no doubt:

Quote:

Mulcair noted the training mission is not a NATO mission – and said he is concerned about the safety of Canadian soldiers.

Ukraine can certainly use training in an effort to help stabilize the region, said NDP defence critic Jack Harris, but the NDP is worried about the potential that the conflict could escalate.

“We don’t want to be in a situation of provoking aggressive reaction and we want to be sure that, in the long term, it’s going to be a positive step,” Harris said. “It’s a lengthy period of commitment in a dangerous region.”

Mulcair seems to be taking the same cowardly stance as Layton did in the 2005-6 election on Afghanistan - "debate in Parliament"! What's your POSITION, Tom? Only after September 2006, when Québec City convention delegates got fed up and voted for immediate withdrawal, did the NDP cautiously begin to actually oppose the "mission" which was then 5 years old.

We must ensure that the same forces which forced Mulcair to nuance his position on Gaza, and oppose the aggression in Iraq and Syria, are strong enough to change the NDP's position on this one as well.

There's really no time to lose.

As for Trudeau and the Liberals - I see no particular hope in getting them on board. Best ensure that anyone who truly cherishes peace and opposes aggression gets the message and sends Trudeau to hell where he richly belongs.

 

6079_Smith_W

Maybe it's not the best way, but ikosmos already has a pretty solid proposal on the table. Drive the war (I mean the anti-war peace resistance) all the way to Kiev and there will be nothing left for warmongering Canadian sleeping bag demonstrators to butcher.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

Unionist wrote:

As for Trudeau and the Liberals - I see no particular hope in getting them on board. Best ensure that anyone who truly cherishes peace and opposes aggression gets the message and sends Trudeau to hell where he richly belongs.

I certainly agree with your call to all decent Canadians to oppose this intervention, and I will do whatever I can to support that opposition. However, I must demur on the issue of sending J.T. to hell. You probably didn't go to Catholic schools, but I did, and I was taught at an early age what the concept of hell was about. As the priests described it to me, it would be a type of pain and suffering much more intense than anything one might experience in life.

But the kicker is that it would last not a day, or a year, or a century, or a million or a trillion years, but for eternity. Now, that is some serious punishment. I just couldn't believe that any human's finite sins, no matter how horrible, could possibly merit infinite punishment. Not to mention that in those days you could go to hell for eating meat on friday. So, while I agree with the sentiment, I think hell is a bit much, even for Justin.

josh

It's all about making foreign policy based on domestic politics.

http://t.thestar.com/#/article/news/canada/2015/04/14/when-it-comes-to-u...

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Not to mention that in those days you could go to hell for eating meat on friday.

I've often wondered who was the last Catholic to go to hell for this.  That's kind of a dry shave, isn't it?  If you'd died ONE DAY LATER...

Hell is the original "mandatory minimum".

Brachina

Thanks Unionist. I just saw Trudeau surrendering to Harper again, again! 

 I don't know what Mulcair's position is, but I plan on emailing him and asking him not to support interfering in another countries civil war militarily and I encourage everyone else to do.so as well, even if your not a NDPer, we need Tom Mulcair's leadership and experience in fighting Harper on this.

 

 I mean they can't even hide behind terrorist or beheading or anything, its an old fashion civil war, since when do we fuck around in those, we used to send in diplomats and peacekeepers and now we send in trainer who teach how to kill better and then scream "fight, fight, fight!". WTF.

Unionist

Brachina wrote:

Thanks Unionist. I just saw Trudeau surrendering to Harper again, again! 

 I don't know what Mulcair's position is, but I plan on emailing him and asking him not to support interfering in another countries civil war militarily and I encourage everyone else to do.so as well, even if your not a NDPer, we need Tom Mulcair's leadership and experience in fighting Harper on this.

 

 I mean they can't even hide behind terrorist or beheading or anything, its an old fashion civil war, since when do we fuck around in those, we used to send in diplomats and peacekeepers and now we send in trainer who teach how to kill better and then scream "fight, fight, fight!". WTF.

Thank you, Brachina. That spirit represents I think the best that Canada has to offer. We need voices like yours speaking out.

 

Brachina

Thanks Unionist. I just saw Trudeau surrendering to Harper again, again! 

 I don't know what Mulcair's position is, but I plan on emailing him and asking him not to support interfering in another countries civil war militarily and I encourage everyone else to do.so as well, even if your not a NDPer, we need Tom Mulcair's leadership and experience in fighting Harper on this.

 

 I mean they can't even hide behind terrorist or beheading or anything, its an old fashion civil war, since when do we fuck around in those, we used to send in diplomats and peacekeepers and now we send in trainer who teach how to kill better and then scream "fight, fight, fight!". WTF.

Unionist

Michael Moriarity wrote:
So, while I agree with the sentiment, I think hell is a bit much, even for Justin.

Ok, point taken.

I wish him a fair trial before an international war crimes tribunal.

Better?

Meanwhile, can we ensure that Canadians don't get sucked in by another "save the innocent civilians and women and girls" mission of imperial aggression and murder?

Thanks.

 

lagatta

Yes, e-mailing the NDP is a good idea. As for Harper and even Trudeau, I think the only proper response is demonstrations and other campaigns. They are set on unilateral support for Kiev, but they also want to be elected.

NDPP

Canada To Send Military Troops to Ukraine as Trainers

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/politics/canada-to-send-military-troops-to...

"Canada has significantly ratcheted up its military involvment in Ukraine, a move the government hopes will stabilize the region but which some experts worry could spark a confrontation  with Russia..."

 

Canadian Troops to Ukraine (and vid)

http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/Politics/ID/2664077675/

MPs James Bezan, Paul Dewar, Chrystia Freeland, debate Canada sending military to Ukraine

 

josh

The most ill fated European adventure since Bonzo went to Bitburg

thorin_bane

Also Trudeau in lockstep as usual. This is why the libs are further sinking in the polls

thorin_bane

Quote:
And Mulcair, who never misses an opportunity to change his position, has now forgotten even the mealy-mouthed "it's gotta be approved by NATO or the UN first". Didn't take him long, only a couple weeks. Looking for votes, no doubt
-Unionist

SO unionist just making up bullshit or do you care to respond to the NDPs actual position?

In Rimouski, Que. Tuesday, NDP Leader Tom Mulcair said his party was concerned with the Harper government's "unilateral decision."

"This is not something that's even been discussed for one hour in the House of Commons," Mulcair said. 

"If NATO were to act... that would be one thing, but here this is Canada acting alone," he said, contrasting what's happening now with earlier missions to Mali and Libya, when MPs were consulted.

"Stephen Harper won't talk to Parliament... Canadians have every right to be consulted about this," he said.

​Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau called the mission "consistent with Canada's interests and capacities in the world," and told reporters in Oakville, Ont. that Canada had to "make sure that we're doing what we can to help against the unacceptable Russian actions."

While the Harper government has lacked transparency and accountability during past missions, Trudeau said he was reassured by Kenney being unequivocal about where the training was taking place and his insistence Canadian forces would not engage Russian troops.

Slumberjack

Quote:
Stephen Harper won't talk to Parliament... Canadians have every right to be consulted about this," he said.

​Weasel words as expected.  Apparently all he requires is a talking to, an explanation of sorts out of Harper's mouth might suffice to bring him on board, or alternately from the Ministers for foreign affairs or defence.  He can't manage to form his own opinion on it, or on behalf of his party, because he hasn't been consulted as an important person such as himself should be, as he sees it.  His opinion on the developing situation in Ukraine, along with the deployment of Canadian troops to yet another global flashpoint, depends on the quality of the explanation from Harper.  No other pre-established considerations are able to penetrate through to the confines of his skull.

The more the three stooges (Harper, Mulcair, Trudeau) speak, the more the widening chasm between people and political expression through representation becomes evident.  The real question for anyone wanting to oppose this state of affairs is, 'to whom are such expressions to be submitted?'  Because the obvious answer by now should be:  'we have no fucking idea.'

Slumberjack

thorin_bane wrote:
Also Trudeau in lockstep as usual. This is why the libs are further sinking in the polls

Is that really why, because I'm not so sure?  I believe the reason for this owes more to the fact that it is dawning on people that what was previously thought to be impossible, that this character Trudeau has fewer ideas ricocheting around inside of his head than even Mulcair, is becoming as plain as the light of day the more we hear from him.  It's the remnants of the public who are still interested in voting that are actually ricocheting around looking for a way out of our political dystopia.  This is what accounts for the hills and valleys of the polling industry where it concerns dead end politicks.

Slumberjack

6079_Smith_W wrote:
Stoking the fires of war with bomb disposal training, flight training, distribution of medicine and supplies is madness, but you have no problem cheerleading about pushing on to Kiev, ikosmos? 

Lets hope our military is able to show them much more than that, like how to avoid encirclement and retreat, how not to surrender ones tanks and artillery to the opposing side while bouncing around inside a cauldron, how not to target civilians and prisoners of war who fall under your control, how not to be fascists, although that last one might be a bit of a stretch in fascist times such as ours.

thorin_bane

Slumberjack wrote:

thorin_bane wrote:
Also Trudeau in lockstep as usual. This is why the libs are further sinking in the polls

Is that really why, because I'm not so sure?  I believe the reason for this owes more to the fact that it is dawning on people that what was previously thought to be impossible, that this character Trudeau has fewer ideas ricocheting around inside of his head than even Mulcair, is becoming as plain as the light of day the more we hear from him.  It's the remnants of the public who are still interested in voting that are actually ricocheting around looking for a way out of our political dystopia.  This is what accounts for the hills and valleys of the polling industry where it concerns dead end politicks.

Thats my point, when two of the parties share pretty much the same ideology minus a few things, and the NDP an almost center right party at this point, a slightly principled one that at least requires the cover of a trumped up charge, it leaves little to vote for. But of the three I would hope to pull politics leftish with the NDP. Might not be the party I want it to be but it sadly beats tweedle dum and tweedle dummer

Slumberjack

Your point sharply diverges from mine at 'slightly principled,' and beating 'tweedle dum and dummer.'  They don't do either.

Sean in Ottawa

In this the people to pressure remain the NDP and Liberals.

The NDP ought to be clear on this. The Liberals are always susceptable to pressure as their ideology in practice is to follow public opinion.

The Conservatives don't listen or care what the public thinks and can be reached only when the opposition parties gain on them in the polls.

This is why punishing Trudeau when he backs up Harper is ore effective than going after Harper himself. When Trudeau turns himself into a fig leaf for Harper, public opposition to Harper becomes much more difficult -- but not impossible as we have seen with Bill C-51.

Slumberjack

If the NDP and the Liberals had a principled support base to start with the pressure would already be there.  Their leaders wouldn't think it possible to veer off script from foreign policy positions that the grassroots support would like to see if there was such a script that the leaders might be held accountable to.  Luckily they invented white out many years ago, and then along came the marvelous technology of cut and paste, because now the so called 'principles' can change on the fly to suit the power game.

swallow swallow's picture

I'm not sure that it's a question of which party to lobby. Maybe it's a question of how to build up an anti-intervention movement - as with other cases where Canada has considered military interventions overseas. Maybe "no deployments oversaeas without parliamentary and public debate" is a useful tactic, even. Since the problem here is that these things are more and more done in secret. 

PS the "sub-humans" quote may not be accurate, as discussed on other threads, but continues to be repeated as fact. Maybe that sort of stuff could go on one of the many other Ukaine threads and tis thread could be kept clear for discussion of Canadian intervention? 

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

One angle that merits investigation is the whole "the US wants to fight [Russia] to the last Ukrainian" claim. This idea goes directly to the odiously gleeful cannon fodder approach among Ukrainian Nationalists in this country, .i.e., rather than the simple anti-war argument, to which the zealots are remarkably immune, anothe argument aiming to save Ukrainian lives, whether of the normal kind or the fascist kind, may get better traction for Liberals and NDPers who are too politically cowardly to move a single flea hop away from total subservience to the Empire.

Well, it's a thought. I mean, anyone with a brain knows that a real war by Ukraine with real Russians would end up like the short lived war in the fall of 2008 following Saakashvili's brutal assault on Tskinvali in South Ossetia. A rout. And there has to be military people, not brainwashed by giddy war fevor, who understand this very well. Where are such people? Have they all lost their minds? etc

Supplemental: One sees how the Putin bogey-man holds all this shite together. If Putin is a bogey-man, probably hiding under our bed at this very moment, then "peace" is a danger, people like Netenyahoo are prescient geniuses, and the transformation of Ukraine into the failed state of Nulandistan, littered with corpses, is an "acceptable" price to be paid for (wait for it) "freedom".

You know. Like all those Iraqi children who were "acceptable" losses to another US political figure by the name of .....

Quote:
Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that’s more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?  

Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price–we think the price is worth it.

 

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Well, yeah, if you're saying that the anti-war movement needs to be energized in this country that's a very important and significant problem. We all know that the Liberals and NDP have to be beaten around the head and shoulders, and have their ears boxed once a day every day, just to get them to move towards public anti-war sentiment. The whole Israel/Palestine conflict is only the most egregious example  of bleating, sheep-like unanimity among the Parliamentary cretins ... I mean MPs ....

6079_Smith_W

Another difficult aspect of this training mission: The Ukrainian military is already full of spies.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/world/russian-infiltration-of-ukrainia...

And for all the talk that this is just about getting votes back home, I am sure relations with Poland, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia were also considered when the U.S. and Britain decided on similar missions to Ukraine.

No, it isn't giving them deadly weapons, but it also isn't leaving allies bordering with Russia feeling like they are being left hanging.

 

 

 

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Russia spent more on the Sochi Olympic Games than the GNP of most of the Baltic States. Why the hell would they give a sh*t about such countries or want to invade them? This "Russian threat" garbage is based on a steaming pile of animal droppings. None of this crap holds any water. ffs.

NDPP

Canada's Decision to Send Troops to Ukraine 'Deplorable' Russia Says

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/canadas-decision-to-send-tr...

"...It does not help in any way the settlement of the internal fratricidal conflict in that country,' the embassy said. Moscow suggested this will only fuel the desire of the Ukraine government, which it painted as belligerent, to keep fighting - in contravention of the Minsk peace accords.

'It would be much more reasonable to concentrate on diplomacy and encourage authorities in Kiev to finally enter into a genuine political dialogue with Donetsk and Lugansk Republics as it was agreed upon in the Minsk-2 accords in February..."

NDPP

*Canada Sending Troops To Ukraine is Exactly the Wrong Thing to Do   -  by Paul Robinson

http://russia-insider.com/en/canada-sending-troops-ukraine-exactly-wrong...

"...Ukraine's greatest strategic blunder has been the Anti-Terrorist Operation itself. Support for rebellion was actually fairly low a year ago, and the numbers willing to protest, let alone take up arms, were small. A year of living in cities which are being shelled has driven thousands of Donbas residents into the rebel armies.

Listening to Canadian politicians and generals speak on the matter, it appears that they view the conflict in Ukraine in utterly black and white terms - the war is the result of 'Russian aggression' period. That implies that the solution lies in 'standing up to Russia.' But this is a grotesque oversimplification of reality.

While Russia shares some responsibility for what has happened, the rebels aren't rebelling because Moscow told them to. They are doing so because they dislike the Ukrainian government. Deterring 'Russian aggression' is irrelevent to this.

A route to a political settlement does exist. It was laid out in the Minsk II agreement according to which Kiev must negotiate constitutional reforms with the representatives of the provinces of Donetsk and Lugansk. Ukraine cannot defeat the rebels by military means. That is now impossible, regardless of how much training Canada or any other country provides.

Unfortunately the training mission not only doesn't contribute to this [negotiated settlement] but is also likely to strengthen the hand of those within the Ukrainian government who believe that no compromise is necessary. [its intention]

Politically, therefore, the Canadian mission sends entirely the wrong signals to Kiev, indicating that Western states will support it regardless of the errors it makes and regardless of willingness to take the steps required for peace."

*please circulate and distribute especially to all Canadian politicians and war-party supporters.

 

swallow swallow's picture

Quote:

Canada's Decision to Send Troops to Ukraine 'Deplorable' Russia Says

Precisely what the Harper government wants to hear. 

NDPP

Power-Play MPs Weigh-In on Canadian Soldiers to Ukraine

http://goo.gl/FszBbb

MPs Bezan, Freeland, Laverdiere

All in Favour

 

Ukrainian Canadian Congress President Paul Grod: Reaction

http://goo.gl/007CDz

"Glad to see there is full political support, all three parties, for this initiative."

 

contrarianna

On the face of it, Canadian soldiers and taxpayers will also be training, along with the US, the more openly Nazi militias such as the Azov, since they are now officially part of the Ukrainian National Guard:

Quote:
Asked if Canada would also be training these militia groups, Mr. Kenney said he expects soldiers will be instructing units from the Ukrainian National Guard and later battalion-sized units from the Ukrainian army. “This is military training. Our trainers are not political scientists,” he said....

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/canada-preparing-to-join-us-and-britain-in-training-ukrainian-troops/article23920936/

Nope, our boys are not effete political scientists, just train these Nazi saviours of Nuland's New Ukraine:

Quote:
Azov’s founder, Andriy Biletsky, who also heads two neo-Nazi political groups, was elected to serve in Ukraine’s parliament while the battalion itself has been integrated into the country’s National Guard, according to Sky News’ Kemp. Biletsky, who was given an "Order For Courage" award by Poroshenko, recently wrote, "The historic mission of our nation in this critical moment is to lead the white races of the world in a final crusade for their survival. A crusade against the Semite-led sub-humans. The task of the present generation is to create a Third Empire."...
http://original.antiwar.com/chris_ernesto/2015/01/28/us-announces-suppor...
Quote:
On Hitler's Birthday, U.S. Will Begin Training Ukraine's Far-right National Guard Perhaps the Defense Department's PR staff could have picked a better day. By Adam Johnson / AlterNet April 2, 2015

.... Ukraine's Interior Minister Arsen Avakov said in a Facebook post on Sunday that the units to be trained include the Azov Battalion, a volunteer force that has attracted criticism for its far-right sentiments including brandishing an emblem widely used in Nazi Germany.

http://www.alternet.org/world/hitlers-birthday-us-will-begin-training-uk...

Unionist

OMG a contrarianna sighting!!

Please say you're back to stay!!

Laughing

 

6079_Smith_W

If that is the case, and I have read conflicting reports about it, somehow I don't think the Canadian army will have too much to teach Azov about how to fight, considering who they have taken on already.

Besides, if we actually look at the damage and atrocities that have been committed by both sides, the lions share has been done by the regular army and the rebels and the Russians; not the so-called far right militias. And even though both sides are rotten with Nazis, all evidence suggests Ukraine pales in comparision to the number of rightists in some European countries and Russia. So this flipping out about symbols and political values is really nonsense.

One good thing though, it 's refreshing that people have stopped making the false claim that Ihor Kolomoyski is behind Azov - funny that it coincides with him no longer being governor of Dniepropetrovsk.

 

 

 

 

contrarianna

6079_Smith_W wrote:

If that is the case, and I have read conflicting reports about it, somehow I don't think the Canadian army will have too much to teach Azov about how to fight, considering who they have taken on already.

Besides, if we actually look at the damage and atrocities that have been committed by both sides, the lions share has been done by the regular army and the rebels and the Russians; not the so-called far right militias. And even though both sides are rotten with Nazis, all evidence suggests Ukraine pales in comparision to the number of rightists in some European countries and Russia. So this flipping out about symbols and political values is really nonsense.

The recurrent Nazi apologetics and obfuscation from smith.

6079_Smith_W wrote:
One good thing though, it 's refreshing that people have stopped making the false claim that Ihor Kolomoyski is behind Azov - funny that it coincides with him no longer being governor of Dniepropetrovsk.

"Funny" indeed, despite smiths smarmy innuendo here, I've never mentioned Kolomoyski before; yet, even according to the pro-Azov Kjev Post, the oligarch Kolomoyski was a major funder of the Azov, Dnipro and Donbas battalians. (Though the Interior minister downplay's his ousted rival's role in favour of Ministry support for the integrated Nazi storm troups).

Quote:
The Dnipro, Azov and Donbas battalions, which together have some 3,700 active fighters, benefited from Kolomoisky's patriotic generosity. The battalions, which are part of Ukraine's Interior Ministry, have often been referred to as “Kolomoisky's private army.”

But Interior Minister Arsen Avakov has insisted that the battalions are now well integrated into his ministry, and other have said that Kolomoisky's influence is “very much exaggerated.”...

Kjev Post

 

 

NDPP

Kenney Says Canadian Troops Won't Be Training Nazi Sympathizers in Ukraine

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/politics/questions-raised-about-whether-ca...

"...But former Canadian diplomat James Bissett says the Canadians could end up training members of the country's fascist groups as those troops are now being enrolled in Ukraine's regular forces.

'These militias are being merged with Ukraine's military so we won't be able to determine who are are training,' said Bissett, Canada's former ambassador to Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Albania.

'These are unsavoury groups that Canadian soldiers should not be associated with.'

 

"Kolomoisky had lavishly funded the right-wing Right Sector battalion and at one point flirted with the ultra-Nationalist Svoboda party, and was even rumoured to be involved with the neo-Nazi Azov battalion

- making an Israeli citizen perhaps the primary purveyor of the ultra-right wing in Ukraine.

Many of these have since been or are in the process of being folded under the authority of the interior ministry..."

http://tabletmag.com/scroll/189890/ukrainian-jewish-oligarch-steps-aside...

NDPP

NDP Condemns Violence in Ukraine

http://www.ucc.ca/2014/02/18/ndp-condemns-violence-in-ukraine/

"New Democrats are appalled by the escalating violence in Ukraine..."

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