Oppose Canadian military mission in Ukraine!

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NDPP

Op-Ed by Paul Grod UCC President: Canadian Values are Ukrainian Values

http://www.ucc.ca/2015/06/09/op-ed-by-paul-grod-ucc-president-canadian-v...

"...The reality is that Canada's leadership as Ukraine's greatest supporter says as much about the challenges that Ukraine faces internationally as it does about the principled and exemplary leadership that the government of Canada, together with the unanimous support of all parliamentarians, has provided since the crisis in Ukraine began.

Canada's approach to Ukraine is grounded in the basic premise that most people here know very little about Ukraine...

Canadian values are Ukrainian values."

 

iyraste1313

Voting won't help as they're all supporters. So what next?

clearly the political system in canada is totally corrupted by money infecting the candidates controlled by their Party leadership, controlled by money, with the ever present media watching over to sanitize the political contest...

so clearly the movement must come from civil society, starting with a network of anticapitalists anti imperialists prepared to communicate to meet to prepare strategies...

I have an opportunity to present to the indigenous food security council soon in BC, to open them to the global context...so the idea is for such a network to ally with potential larger groupings...

such a network must become active globally, engage with our allies wherever...how this can be done is open to discussion, but I manage, what with a paupers income.......

bekayne

iyraste1313 wrote:

Voting won't help as they're all supporters. So what next?

What does the new (old) guy think?

Slumberjack

NDPP wrote:
 It is shocking and disgusting also to see the studied indifference of Canadian 'progressives' to all of this, especially those who continue to support and advance the political fortunes of the very politicians responsible for cheerleading Canadian complicity in this latest vicious imperial adventure. Shame on you all.

I think 'progressives' are outside of the milieu or clique that you're referring to here.  I mean, by any definition of 'progressive' we're used to, especially in the context of left of center politics, they would have to be wouldn't they?  Politically speaking, people can't refer to themselves as this or that if the shoe obviously doesn't fit.  Supporter of neoliberalism can't refer to themselves as Marxists, ergo, supporters of Canadian complicity in imperial adventures, or those who remain silent while the politicians they support are complicit in imperial adventures, cannot logically refer to themselves as 'progressive.'  What we would normally consider as being a progressive stance is one that takes flight from being implicated as such.

Slumberjack

Paladin1 wrote:
 

Good luck with that, we don't have any.  The closest we have is in the picture below.  

There's also the ERYX system and the M72:

I'm not sure if the TOW system is still in service, but that would be the most effective anti-armour weapon of the group.

6079_Smith_W

Slumberjack wrote:

I think 'progressives' are outside of the milieu or clique that you're referring to here.  I mean, by any definition of 'progressive' we're used to, especially in the context of left of center politics, they would have to be wouldn't they?  Politically speaking, people can't refer to themselves as this or that if the shoe obviously doesn't fit.  Supporter of neoliberalism can't refer to themselves as Marxists, ergo, supporters of Canadian complicity in imperial adventures, or those who remain silent while the politicians they support are complicit in imperial adventures, cannot logically refer to themselves as 'progressive.'  What we would normally consider as being a progressive stance is one that takes flight from being implicated as such.

Hey... you've been taking notes in that Cailtyn Jenner thread, you smart guy. I can just tell.

Must have been. I don't think we have a pigeonholing and tunnel vision thread where you could have picked up those pearls of wisdom.

Slumberjack

What thread are you talking about?  And what form of progressiveness is it that incorporates as being fine and dandy some of the led-by-the-nose myopia we're actually talking about?

Slumberjack

You're right, I can't just pick what is and what isn't progressive.  Luckily there is an entire history of progressiveness and progressive thought that one might refer to for guidance as to what it all entails, and what it doesn't.

6079_Smith_W

Here's the deal, SJ. In a complex situation like this you don't get to set yourself up as the arbiter of who is and isn't progressive. None of this is black and white, actually.

Besides, I thought we were talking about Ukraine - not who is and isn't a member of your little club.

 

6079_Smith_W

No, but if we want to talk about the actual subject matter, maybe Russia should have invested in a bit of training in map-reading and aiming before their rebels shot that plane out of the sky.

Seems to me there is more than a bit of complaining in these threads about indiscriminate shelling, no? I expect you understand the importance of training in that area more than most here.

Or people could just keep on railing about how the evil junta is going to beat people to death with our goggles and sleeping bags.

 

Slumberjack

6079_Smith_W wrote:
No, but if we want to talk about the actual subject matter, maybe Russia should have invested in a bit of training in map-reading and aiming before their rebels shot that plane out of the sky.

You really should forward the findings of your investigation to the proper authorities.  Apparently after all this time they're still scratching their heads trying to piece things together, and here you've managed to figure it all out on the side.

6079_Smith_W

What are you saying, SJ? Training soldiers how to aim properly is a bad thing?

 

Slumberjack

6079_Smith_W wrote:
Seems to me there is more than a bit of complaining in these threads about indiscriminate shelling, no? 

I call them concerns, as opposed to complaining, and justifiable ones at that.  In my day as a member of an M109 detachment, harassing fire missions would involve military targets of opportunity, ie: columns of fighting vehicles, formations on the move, logistical choke points along the forward edge of the battlefield, etc.  Knowing something about what artillery shells can do and the blast ranges involved with different types of munitions, shelling populated, residential areas without regard toward the civilian population constitutes a war crime.  If the regime in Ottawa is merely supplying sleeping bags to the Ukrainian artillerymen engaged in these activities, then this constitutes providing them aid and comfort while they go about their so called 'duties' on behalf of the regime in Kiev.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

[dunno if this was mentioned here] Canada also provides satellite information, photos, etc., which undoubtedly help that regime to bomb civilian areas as they are doing.

That constitutes a Canadian war crime, doesn't it?

 

6079_Smith_W

You didn't answer my question, SJ.

What is the problem with teaching soldiers how to read maps and shoot straight?

I know anything that makes the Ukrainian government look bad is okay by you, but are you really okay with that if the price is them firing blind and killing more people because the rebels set their artillery positions up next to schools and residential areas?

(that is what that protest in Donetsk a few days ago was about, after all)

 

Slumberjack

ikosmos wrote:
That constitutes a Canadian war crime, doesn't it? 

I think so, yes.

iyraste1313

What is the problem with teaching soldiers how to read maps and shoot straight?...

I thought the idea of civilization was to transcend brute force...make treaties, sign agreements, look for accomodating principles to coexist in harmony etc.

So the utopian idea of establishing and honouring international treaties, not might is right, brute force rape pillage and plunder, massacre and genocide...

So a People have by overwhelming consensus decided they wish to be autonomous under international law...so anyone any country that violates that right is logically promoting the might is right principle...and with our weapons of planetary anihilation, that means elimination of the species of the planet...

like it or not, the people of Donbass are under threat and having voted to unilaterally secede...a pattern which is becoming general throughout the planet and good for that!

Any support, in any fashion and especially and ultimately moral support to the Ukraine Government is support for our mutually assured destruction..... 

Slumberjack

6079_Smith_W wrote:
What is the problem with teaching soldiers how to read maps and shoot straight? 

Generally there isn't a problem with it in theory.  However, one can never make a full account of the practical problems that might arise.  When I was training soldiers to perform those tasks, just when you thought everything was understood by everyone involved, one came to find out that this is not always the case.  I have had to go looking for lost soldiers who had previously been quite skilled in map and compass navigation.  In my time I have also had jammed, fully cocked and loaded machine guns pointed at me, by individuals who you could have sworn had understood the risks of turning the barrels of their weapons with their bodies in the direction of fellow soldiers if they have a question or problem pertaining to task at hand.  As you might imagine, positive reinforcement in the strictest sense resolved those incidents, but it just goes to show how the best laid plans can go adrift through carelessness and inattention to detail.  The problem with training is that you start out at a certain level and aspire toward improvements.  You can't count on expertise and adherence to instruction straight out of the gate no matter how much you would wish for that.

6079_Smith_W

Not really an answer, SJ.

Of course we don't want more interference in Ukraine, but sadly that is what we have, primarily on the side of the rebels.

And you might remember that Ukraine tried the option of backing off in Crimea, and early on, in eastern Ukraine. They could have kept on with that all the way to Kiev, but clearly it wasn't a viable option.

Things are complicated further by the fact that both armies are in populated areas, and in some cases, are putting their artillery in those positions on purpose.

Given that, would you rather have missiles being fired by trained, or untrained people, because regrettable as it is that outside people are there at all, that is the kind of skills they are being taught.

 

NDPP

The US-installed, Canadian supported Nazi regime in Kiev is quite deliberately targeting the civilian population of Donbass. The shelling or terror inflicted upon them is no accident, but a key component of Kiev's 'ATO' (anti-terrorist operations). As is the pathological hatred of Ukrainian ultranationalists for these Novorossian 'Moskali'. The proposition that giving these Nazis better training will result in less civilian casualites is a presposterous perversity. The international community should be forcing Ukraine to comply with their commitments under Minsk, not assisting them in a program of Nazi depravity.

"We must act like our teachers of democracy'

http://fortruss.blogspot.ru/2015/06/founder-of-ukrainian-una-unso-we-mus...

6079_Smith_W

Funny that the people yelling at Zacharchenko last weekend thought his putting artillery next to schools and apartments might have had a little bit to do with it.

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Here is what Canada can teach people in the Ukraine about how to treat its minority Russian population. Heir Harper is merely following the grand Canadian tradition for dealing with people who will not submit to central authority or are a percieved threat to security or corporate interests.

 

 

 

NDPP

Controversy in Canada After US Blocks Training of Neo-Nazis in Ukraine

http://newcoldwar.org/controversy-in-canada-after-u-s-blocks-training-of...

"...Elizabeth May, leader of the Green Party said, 'Who are we training, and do we know for sure that it doesn't include this appalling neo-Nazi paramilitary group? Ms May noted that bipartisan votes in the US are rare. 'Canada should be taking note of this,' she said. Comparing the situation to Libya, she said, 'We should've learned a lesson to be aware and alert of the rule of unintended consquences."

 

Unanimous Support For Ukraine War by Parties in Canadian Parliament

http://newcoldwar.org/unanimous-support-for-ukraine-war-by-parties-in-ca...

"The discussion was hardly a debate. No, this was a pat-on-the-back-we're-all-in-this-together-session..."

Don't be fooled by PC questions over training the 'Azov' Nazis while the 'all in' political commitment to NATO and the US imperialism agenda goes unchallenged. There is NO opposition in Ottawa to the overall agenda in Ukraine.

NDPP

'Powerful People in the West and in Kiev Do Not Want a Ukrainian Settlement' - Prof Stephen Cohen

http://rt.com/op-edge/268372-us-foreign-policy-russia-ukraine/

"Arguing that there is a peace and war party in almost every capital, Professor Stephen Cohen, scholar of Russia studies at Princeton and New York Universities, told RT he believes the war party in Washington is against the Minsk agreement..."

There is no peace party in Ottawa.

NDPP

Video of Public Forum in Vancouver, June 12, 2015 - Roger Annis NCW

http://newcoldwar.org/video-of-public-forum-in-vancouver-june-12-2015-wa...

"War in Ukraine and the NATO offensive in eastern Europe;

'Governments of NATO countries are pushing a 'blame Russia' narrative and three of them - the US, UK and Canada - have landed soldiers in western Ukraine in order to provide training to the Ukrainian army and its allied, extreme-right battalions.'

NDPP

Unsavoury Elements Taint Ukrainian Regime  -  by Scott Taylor

http://thechronicleherald.ca/opinion/1294541-on-target-unsavoury-element...

"As loathe as the Canadian government is to admit that Ukraine's security forces contain such unsavoury elements, it is imperative that we follow the US lead on this and ban any and all support to neo-Nazi fascists,

even if they are anti-Russian."

 

NDPP

UCC: Statement By Olena Koszarny, Chair of UCC Ukraine Advisory Council

http://www.ucc.ca/2015/06/23/statement-by-olena-koszarny-chair-of-ucc-uk...

"Last week was a week of which both Canadians and Ukrainians should be very proud. On June 6, the Prime Minister of Canada visited Ukraine on his way to the G7 meetings in Germany, once again demonstrating that Canada stands firmly beside Ukraine..."

But not a word from Lenna on how much she likes her new CEO job at HORIZON CAPITAL, replacing her longtime American pal, Natalie Jaresko, who was appointed Minister of Finance of Ukraine.

I imagine they still talk. About business. And other things...

Remember meetings together in Washington at the Atlantic Council to help glue the thing perhaps?

 

Atlantic Council and Ukrainian World Ukrainian World Congress Partner to Advance a European, Democratic and United Ukraine

http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/news/press-releases/atlantic-council-and-...

Perhaps this will help you 'get it' too:

Ukraine Finance Minister's American 'Values' - by Robert Parry

https://consortiumnews.com/2015/02/18/ukraine-finance-ministers-american...

"...Jaresko formed HCA and EEGF with two other WNISEF officers, Mark Iwashko and LENNA KOSZARNY..."

 

But, as Lenna knows, in both Canada and the 'New' Ukraine, there's no CONFLICT of interest. 

Because that IS the interest.

 

NDPP

Visiting Canadian Defense Minister Dismisses Concerns Over Training Extreme-Right (NAZI) Paramilitaries

http://newcoldwar.org/visiting-ukraine-canadian-defense-minister-dismiss...

No surprise to find Jason Kenney helping to whitewash Canada's pro-Nazi support.

 

Azov Battalion Accused of Neo-Nazi links Wants Canada's Help

http://newcoldwar.org/azov-battalion-accused-of-neo-nazi-links-wants-can...

Same as above: Banderites allege Russian propaganda and nice nazis..

 

Nazi Values

http://www.cpcml.ca/Tmlw2015/W45025.HTM#4

 

NDPP

Will Canadian Troops in Ukraine Be Training Radical Islamist Volunteers Tied to ISIS?  -  by David Climenhaga

http://newcoldwar.org/will-canadian-troops-in-ukraine-be-training-radica...

"It's been evident for several months now Ukraine has a problem with neo-Nazis, in particular battalions of 'volunteers' who espouse Nazi ideology and use Nazis symbols, fighting on the government side in the ongoing civil strife in that European country.

Now it appears Ukraine may have a problem with radical Islamist volunteers in the ranks of its army as well, according to a New York Times report on Tuesday.

This raises the spectre that Canadian troops sent to Ukraine as military trainers could not only be used to train neo-Nazis, but to assist Islamist militias tied to ISIS as well..."

 

 

thorin_bane

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadian-embassy-used-as-safe-haven-duri...

Canadian embassy used as safe haven during Ukraine uprising, investigation finds Some allies say incident means Canada was an active participant in regime change

NDPP

'Yats' the Bunny and Harpo to Sign Free Trade Deal As Ukraine Slides into Default

 

Ukraine PM to Visit Ottawa as Trade Deal Set to be Signed

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/politics/ukraine-pm-to-visit-ottawa-as-tra...

"A trade deal between the two countries would be a win for Ukraine, which is desperate to improve its battered economy following nearly two years of turmoil. It would also be a major victory for the Conservative government heading into October's elections, where Ukrainian Canadian voters could be a deciding factor..."

Sean in Ottawa

NDPP wrote:

'Yats' the Bunny and Harpo to Sign Free Trade Deal As Ukraine Slides into Default

 

Ukraine PM to Visit Ottawa as Trade Deal Set to be Signed

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/politics/ukraine-pm-to-visit-ottawa-as-tra...

"A trade deal between the two countries would be a win for Ukraine, which is desperate to improve its battered economy following nearly two years of turmoil. It would also be a major victory for the Conservative government heading into October's elections, where Ukrainian Canadian voters could be a deciding factor..."

So will Canada treat Ukraine like Europe is treating Greece if they default leaving Canadian companies or lending institutions on the hook?

NDPP

Given that it is a US-installed and controlled oligarchy, Canada will 'treat' Ukraine exactly as the American overlord of both wishes it to.

NDPP

Canada Boosts Kiev Regime With Free Trade Pact  - by Robert Jordan

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/07/17/canu-j17.html

"In addition to diplomatic, military and police support, the Harper government has extended $400 million in low-interest loans; and lent Kiev a total of $650 million.

Yatsenyuk is hoping for more. In comments to the Globe and Mail Tuesday, he appealed to Canadian investors to assist his government with a planned fire-sale of state assets.

'I don't want Ukrainian tycoons to buy these state-owned enterprises,' Ukraine's prime minister declared. 'I asked the Canadian Prime Minister, 'Please tell your investors and your businesses to jump into Ukraine.' [He used the same line a day before to US investors].

Canada's pro-Kiev stance is part of its close political and military alliance with US imperialism. Ottawa enjoys close ties with many of the right-wing nationalist forces which were active in the Maidan protests and are now playing a leading role in fighting against pro-Russian separatists in the country's east.

The Conservative government, with the full support of the opposition parties in parliament has no problem in working with such right-wing forces..."

NDPP

For Sale: Canadian Military Gear in Ukraine!

https://twitter.com/ValLisitsa/status/621712431891513344

"Long Live the Canadian Voentog: Canada's best - night-vision opticals for sale in Ukraine newspaper.."

 

Turns Out Canada's $400 M Loan To Ukraine Comes At A Heavy Price  - by John Helmer

http://russia-insider.com/en/turns-out-canadas-400-mn-loan-ukraine-comes...

"Last year Canada lent Ukraine $400 Million. This year Canada and Ukraine concluded a 'free-trade' agreement which:

- Eliminates tariffs on Canada's key exports to Ukraine.

- Does NOT eliminate tariffs on Ukraine's key exports to Canada

Canada - A Friend To Wish For..."

 

ROSHEN Chocolate and Slava Vodka COMING SOON Canada..check it out and see who profits!

NDPP

On Target: Ukraine Free Trade Deal - by Scott Taylor

http://thechronicleherald.ca/opinion/1300524-on-target-ukraine-free-trad...

"...Since no reporters were allowed to question Yatsenyuk during his visit to Ottawa, no one got to ask him about the radical developments happening in western Ukraine.

An armed standoff between the Right Sector and government security forces resulted in neo-Nazis grabbling a 6 year-old boy as a hostage. The presence of neo-Nazis in their midst is an embarrassing reality for Ukraine supporters - of which Canada is the most strident - and for the new Kyiv regime.

*An important point to note is that these latest clashes occurred in western Ukraine - the so-called safe areas where our soldiers will be deployed to train Ukrainian troops to battle pro-Russian rebels.*

In the meantime it looks like they're getting ready to battle each other.

No wonder Harper didn't want reporters asking questions."

Canadian reporters? Asking questions? About Ukraine? I very much doubt it.

 

 

iyraste1313

thanks for this..".ROSHEN Chocolate and Slava Vodka COMING SOON Canada"

This would be a great item to coordinate protests around!

6079_Smith_W

I don't know about your part of the world but Lvivske and Slayvutich beer have been on the shelves here for years. In the past year I have seen it moved up to the till at some stores.

 

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

The largest military training "exercise" to date, involving 1800 NATO storm-troopers from 18 different countries jack-booting their way across Ukraine, is scheduled to take place near Lviv until the end of July. The Russian Foreign Ministry has made a statement in regard to the exercise, noting that "the wargames may undermine the peace process in eastern Ukraine."  NATO was indifferent to their objections as the member states continue to pump millions of dollars of weapons into Ukraine while pretending "concern" over the peace process. 

1,800 troops from 18 states: NATO launches biggest ever drill in Ukraine

 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

That's 100 troops per state!  Not even Sauron could defeat an army of that size.

NDPP

Canada To Extend Ukraine Mission, Harper Announces

http://www.thestarphoenix.com/news/Canada+extend+Ukraine+mission+Harper+...

"Canada will extend its participation in NATO efforts to support security in central and eastern Europe until June 2016, Prime Minister Stephen Harper says. Harper said the extension of the operation is part of Canada's broader response to Russian aggression against Ukraine."

 

Well Known Canadian Journalist Visits Ukraine and Praises Neo Nazis 

http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/08/05/well-known-canadian-journalist-vi...

"One of Canada's most known journalists was in Ukraine last month on reporting duty. Readers of mainstream media in Canada will be surprised to read Dianne Francis' observations of her visit. She has penned several articles in the World Post praising the extreme-right and neo-Nazi paramilitary forces that are allied with the Ukrainian government in waging civil war in the east of the country.

Francis is a renowned conservative and pro-capitalist ideologue, but open support for the far-right in Ukraine comes as an eye-opener. Her articles have received no attention or critique, an all too common sign these days of the political impunity which proponents of war against the people of eastern Ukraine enjoy in Canada..."

Slumberjack

Mr. Magoo wrote:
That's 100 troops per state!  Not even Sauron could defeat an army of that size.

Otto von Bismark once stated that "The whole of the Balkans are not worth the bones of a single Pomeranian grenadier."  By comparison, NATO seems to have concluded that the whole of it's Eastern European periphery is worth only slightly more, adjusted for inflation.

NDPP

Canadian Political Leaders Non Debate Over Ukraine

http://newcoldwar.org/canadian-political-leaders-non-debate-over-ukraine/

"...Beginning in the 1960s, the NDP had a formal party plank adopted at a party convention in favour of Canadian withdrawal from NATO. But party leaders never adhered to the policy. It was degraded by successive party leaders and eventually reversed altogether.

Notwithstanding party leader debates on Ukraine and the NATO offensive in eastern Europe, progressive forces need to organize to challenge Canada's support for the war in eastern Ukraine and the related, war-threatening sanctions against Russia."

Paladin1

NDPP wrote:

On Target: Ukraine Free Trade Deal - by Scott Taylor

http://thechronicleherald.ca/opinion/1300524-on-target-ukraine-free-trad...

"...Since no reporters were allowed to question Yatsenyuk during his visit to Ottawa, no one got to ask him about the radical developments happening in western Ukraine.

An armed standoff between the Right Sector and government security forces resulted in neo-Nazis grabbling a 6 year-old boy as a hostage. The presence of neo-Nazis in their midst is an embarrassing reality for Ukraine supporters - of which Canada is the most strident - and for the new Kyiv regime.

*An important point to note is that these latest clashes occurred in western Ukraine - the so-called safe areas where our soldiers will be deployed to train Ukrainian troops to battle pro-Russian rebels.*

In the meantime it looks like they're getting ready to battle each other.

No wonder Harper didn't want reporters asking questions."

Canadian reporters? Asking questions? About Ukraine? I very much doubt it.

 

 

 

I've corrisponded on and off with Scott taylor over the years and I find he's a legit guy who tells it like it is and asks tough questions.

If Ukraine is accepting help or associating with Neo-Nazi's we should pull out all of our assets yesterday. Thing is the  Canadian-Ukraine voter base is too big to let that happen.

NDPP

"We Stand Firmly With Ukraine." - Tom Mulcair

https://youtu.be/qvGuLHP6eME

NDPP

'Russian Rebels'

https://youtu.be/qvGuLHP6eME

 

"We stand firmly with Ukraine" - Mulcair

https://youtu.be/nkCb1MWiW0Q

 

 

NDPP

Canada's soldiers are now training Ukronazi troops. There has been little or no protest. Especially from any of our politicians. Why?

We should know what we are supporting and actions being taken by those we support. This will help...

 

War Crimes in Gorlovka - The Anna Tuv Story (and vid DON"T MISS!)

http://thesaker.is/warcrimes-in-gorlovka-the-anna-tuv-story-full-video/

"Fascists, real fascists, Poroshenko, Yatsenyuk and all of his followers. Damn them!"

NDPP

Canadian Soldiers Land in Ukraine For Training Mission

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/09/01/canadian-soldiers-land-in-ukraine-f...

"...At a time when a politician comparing unarmed Canadian vets providing security for Harper with Nazis grabbed headlines, it's a good time to get behind our brave men and women in uniform..."

Who are again standing for Nazis.

Against their enemies...

 

Novosvetlovka

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KA_VXW-YZ-8

 

"We stand with Ukraine. We stand with NATO." - Tom Mulcair

NDPP

Canada's Foreign Policy Toward Ukraine: Dr Taras Kuzio, Senior Research Associate, Canadian Institute for Ukrainian Studies, U of A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exJi86IVTt8

"The key is to ensure the NDP doesn't come to power. That would be a disaster..."

6079_Smith_W

So one guy with a degree and a webcam doesn't like the NDP.

Based on your previous post (and a few other things you have said over the years) my guess is you agree with him. Have you had a change of heart, or what exactly are you trying to point out?

 

 

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