Saanich Gulf Islands Part 2

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Stockholm

The only way that there would have been no NDP candidate on the ballot at all would have been if Julian West had withdrawn literally five minutes before the deadline to register as a candidate with election Canada.

The Tories in Toronto Centre had their candidate quit ju7st a day before the deadline and they still managed to get another person's name on the ballot by the next day - and that person came in second!

janfromthebruce

quote:


Originally posted by Stunned Wind:
[b]So you think that they [b]wanted[/b] Julian's name left on the ballot? You don't think that Briony would have had a better chance of winning if there had been no NDP name of any kind on the ballot?

Just how quickly can a party come up with a new name to put forward, if the properly elected candidate has to step down? And would that person have been properly chosen by the riding association? Or, does that matter?[/b]


Yap, I do. Perhaps their were more cats here than the obvious. Check all your assumptions. [img]eek.gif" border="0[/img]

Malcolm Malcolm's picture

quote:


Originally posted by scott:
[b]
My guess is that Penn joined the Liberals because she thought that the Liberals had a better chance of overturning the Cons than the NDP. That is a questionable call as the NDP got slightly more votes than the Liberal did in 2006. I guess that she figured that it would be easier to get dippers to vote Liberal than the other way around. It's a debatable call.[/b]

You may well be right, Scott. If so, then her ethics are find, it's just her judgment that's lacking.

Malcolm Malcolm's picture

What it all comes down to is the fundamentally anti-democratic beliefs and attitudes of the Liberal Party as exemplified by both Scott and Brian - specifically their arrogant belief that voting according to principles makes one a "fickwit," and their absolute demand that everyone must cast their principles aside to vote Liberal because the Liberals are entitled to our votes.

Well, no matter how much Scott and Brian hate democracy, I still intend to vote in the manner my conscience dictates - meaning that I will not vote for ANY right wing party.

Brian White

Perhaps you are completely delusional?
I am not a member of the liberal party and have never voted for them.
You do not need to cast your principles aside.
But it would be nice if you stopped repeating yourself. Everyone believes you now.
You have principles. and they are NDP NDP NDP.
You have got party religion.
I do not.
I vote based on candidate, party and tactical conciderations. The swinging voter!
You are married to the NDP whether they want you or not. You would probably vote for a pigs fart if it secured a NDP nomination.
Whatever. We all have principles to a varying degree. I am not going to stop argueing because some religous party zelot gets upset.

quote:

Originally posted by Malcolm:
[b]What it all comes down to is the fundamentally anti-democratic beliefs and attitudes of the Liberal Party as exemplified by both Scott and Brian - specifically their arrogant belief that voting according to principles makes one a "fickwit," and their absolute demand that everyone must cast their principles aside to vote Liberal because the Liberals are entitled to our votes.

Well, no matter how much Scott and Brian hate democracy, I still intend to vote in the manner my conscience dictates - meaning that I will not vote for ANY right wing party.[/b]


Malcolm Malcolm's picture

quote:


Originally posted by Brian White:
[b]Perhaps you are completely delusional?
I am not a member of the liberal party and have never voted for them.
You do not need to cast your principles aside.
But it would be nice if you stopped repeating yourself. Everyone believes you now.
You have principles. and they are NDP NDP NDP.
You have got party religion.
I do not.
I vote based on candidate, party and tactical conciderations. The swinging voter!
You are married to the NDP whether they want you or not. You would probably vote for a pigs fart if it secured a NDP nomination.
Whatever. We all have principles to a varying degree. I am not going to stop argueing because some religous party zelot gets upset.
[/b]

(First response edited out since the response you deserve violates too many babble policies.)

Perhaps you should go look at your posts over the course of two threads before you start pussing and moaning about people repeating themselves. Your entire argument may be summarized as follows: "Anyone who didn't vote Liberal in Saanich Gulf Islands is a fuckwit."

I have, in fact, voted on occasion for parties other than the NDP. The principle at stake here is that I am not prepared to vote for a right wing party. I have never done so because my principles preclude it.

Now, we could deal with your delusion that the Liberals are something other than a right wing party, but I don't think there's sufficient bandwidth in the world to conduct the necessary therapeutic intervention.

What this entire discussion comes down to, Brian, is that you refuse to accept the fact that people are not obliged to vote the way you think they should vote. That is anti-democratic.

Finally, you tell me that you are not nor have ever been a member of the Liberal Party. I suppose that may be so. But the fact that you've posted dozens of messages saying that anyone who didn't vote Liberal is a fuckwit, you will understand that I don't believe you.

ottawaobserver

quote:


Originally posted by Stunned Wind:
[b]So you think that they [b]wanted[/b] Julian's name left on the ballot? You don't think that Briony would have had a better chance of winning if there had been no NDP name of any kind on the ballot?

Just how quickly can a party come up with a new name to put forward, if the properly elected candidate has to step down? And would that person have been properly chosen by the riding association? Or, does that matter?[/b]


Just catching up on this thread now, so I'm a bit slow in throwing this in, but .... candidates have to be nominated by 2 PM on nomination day. They have until 5 PM of that day to withdraw.

For this theory to work, they would have had to get Julian West to step down between 2 PM - 5 PM, but I think the final shoe dropped on that story in the evening if I remember the chronology correctly.

Brian White

I will just point out again that nobody forced West to be a candidate and nobody forced him to withdraw either. It was free will all the way. I hope the NDP learns to screen their candidates a bit better. (For the candidates sakes too). It is a very real case of if you cannot stand the heat, do not put your name up for election. And actually I think a candidates past is pertinent if you are electing them to political office.
People get pretty partisan over this. If you step back, and change the names of the party involved, does your opinion change? If it does, I would argue that you are being subjective and unfair in your judgement in both the real and the hypotethical cases.
Brian

janfromthebruce

quote:


Originally posted by Brian White:
[b]I will just point out again that nobody forced West to be a candidate and nobody forced him to withdraw either. It was free will all the way. I hope the NDP learns to screen their candidates a bit better. (For the candidates sakes too). It is a very real case of if you cannot stand the heat, do not put your name up for election. And actually I think a candidates past is pertinent if you are electing them to political office.
People get pretty partisan over this. If you step back, and change the names of the party involved, does your opinion change? If it does, I would argue that you are being subjective and unfair in your judgement in both the real and the hypotethical cases.
Brian[/b]

Brian, she lost, and she wasn't even close in beating Lunn, as she lost by 2,641 votes. There were lots more very close races with results alot closer which were heartbreakers, and which those candidates and their voters have moved on.
Often the NDP has to work really hard, and more than once, to possibly win a race.

So let's have a bet: my bet is that after a certain amount of time passing, West will be back in the Green fold in which he came, seeing how the overall Green plot ended up backfiring.

ottawaobserver

The Victoria Times-Colonist wrote a story about this whole matter this morning. So far it's focussing more on the robo-calls and third-party spending, but does acknowledge that there are theories being discussed as to how West came to pull out, but that so far no evidence has emerged to support them.

KenS

As noted, what happened around West is peripheral to that story.

There is the potential for Lunn to get seriously nailed on this.

quote:

The spending filings for Saanich-Gulf Islands will be watched closely. If Lunn spent to the limit, and several third-party groups with a common address [all staffed by the Cons riding assoc VP] spent heavily to support him, expect some tough questions.

I think its safe to say that it will be found that Lunn did spend the limit.

But even if Elections Canada filings support the suspicions voiced in the article, I suspect that unfortunately this is going to turn out to be one of those grey areas where clearly the spirit of the rules has been violated, AND there has been some degree of behaviour for which people can and will be charged....

...BUT, in practice, actual prosecution by EC has no clear precededent, which in turn allows the Cons to twist out of grasp.

One can hope that they will pay in public opinion for the sliminess, even if they manage to evade penalties... but they didn't pay a price for the blatant scam aroung national spending limits for the 2006 election.

Granted, this case would be more easily understood by the non-junkie public. But I despair of anything sticking on the Cons without criminal convictions.

The Cons are getting away with murder in systematically pushing on several fronts well beyond the limits of the election financing laws. Game the rules to hobble the Liberals, then deliberately go even to the lengths of obviously illegal acivity to end run the rules that limit themselves.

[ 30 October 2008: Message edited by: KenS ]

janfromthebruce

quote:


Originally posted by ottawaobserver:
[b]The Victoria Times-Colonist wrote a story about this whole matter this morning. So far it's focussing more on the robo-calls and third-party spending, but does acknowledge that there are theories being discussed as to how West came to pull out, but that so far no evidence has emerged to support them.[/b]

I read the article and it made no reference to West. Was there another article?

KenS

The link takes you to page 2 of the article.

The robo calls for West paid for by one of these 3rd party outfits, comes up I beleive in the first page.

ottawaobserver

Yup, you're right. Sorry about that, a slip of the finger. Here's the link to page one.

janfromthebruce

One thing I noted in the article is that the number of votes the NDP received most likely did not effect the outcome.

Maysie Maysie's picture

Closing for length.

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