So why DO so many 'progressives' remain with the Liberals anyhow?

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KenS

quote:


I challenge your assertion that the "leftmost" 6 or 7 percent of the population, in its majority, consistently votes Liberal.

Those are your words, not mine. I said a high proportion vote Liberal.

I don't know about you- but even 20-30% who are identified as left voting Liberal tells us something... even if we don't know exactly what to chalk it up to.

Voter behaviour is much more complex than the models partisan junkies carry in their heads.

But it really isn't that hard to see why it would be true. A lot of left identified folks [and remember we're not just talking activists here] are pretty totally disengaged from electoral politics. When and if those folks vote its a pretty short term instrumentalist act.

And even those who have some degree of engagement often see the Liberal party as the best available vehicle for seeing something like what they want to happen move towards reality. IE, they aren't just voting for candidates more likley to win, they are giving their support to the Lberal Party, as institution, as the best vehicle for [eventually] seeing something happen they idenify with.

We're talking about what happens, not whether or how 'deluded' people are.

I'm not a political scientist or an academic, so I don't file away voter behaviour studies I have seen. I think I have a good track record for remembering and relaying. I remember the general thrust of studies. I don't remember how high a proportion of left identifieds usually vote Liberal. But even 50% of the [b]general population[/b] [not just activists in circulation and who talk in discussion forums] would not surprise me.

It isn't just politicians like Rae and Dosanjh who turn to the Liberal party. There is an endless historical stream of them running from Hazen Argue to Buzz Hargrove who were widely seen as left by anyone's measure. They are just the tip of the iceberg for the thousands of nameless folks who are part of the public space we call politics.

KenS

quote:


I challenge your assertion that the "leftmost" 6 or 7 percent of the population, in its majority, consistently votes Liberal.

Those are your words, not mine. I said a high proportion vote Liberal.

I don't know about you- but even 20-30% who are identified as left voting Liberal tells us something... even if we don't know exactly what to chalk it up to.

Voter behaviour is much more complex than the models partisan junkies carry in their heads.

But it really isn't that hard to see why it would be true. A lot of left identified folks [and remember we're not just talking activists here] are pretty totally disengaged from electoral politics. When and if those folks vote its a pretty short term instrumentalist act.

And even those who have some degree of engagement often see the Liberal party as the best available vehicle for seeing something like what they want to happen move towards reality. IE, they aren't just voting for candidates more likley to win, they are giving their support to the Lberal Party, as institution, as the best vehicle for [eventually] seeing something happen they idenify with.

We're talking about what happens, not whether or how 'deluded' people are.

I'm not a political scientist or an academic, so I don't file away voter behaviour studies I have seen. I think I have a good track record for remembering and relaying. I remember the general thrust of studies. I don't remember how high a proportion of left identifieds usually vote Liberal. But even 50% of the [b]general population[/b] [not just activists in circulation and who talk in discussion forums] would not surprise me.

It isn't just politicians like Rae and Dosanjh who turn to the Liberal party. There is an endless historical stream of them running from Hazen Argue to Buzz Hargrove who were widely seen as left by anyone's measure. They are just the tip of the iceberg for the thousands of nameless folks who are part of the public space we call politics.

KenS

Many lefties- particularly the activist ones- see all politics as what amounts to a game of pressure politics: you agitate in a certain direction to push things that way.

If that's the way you see politics working- and you are going to give your support, however qualified, to some particular political party... then [b]one option[/b] that makes sense is to give that support to the party that spends the most time governing.

KenS

Many lefties- particularly the activist ones- see all politics as what amounts to a game of pressure politics: you agitate in a certain direction to push things that way.

If that's the way you see politics working- and you are going to give your support, however qualified, to some particular political party... then [b]one option[/b] that makes sense is to give that support to the party that spends the most time governing.

KenS

Many lefties- particularly the activist ones- see all politics as what amounts to a game of pressure politics: you agitate in a certain direction to push things that way.

If that's the way you see politics working- and you are going to give your support, however qualified, to some particular political party... then [b]one option[/b] that makes sense is to give that support to the party that spends the most time governing.

KenS

Many lefties- particularly the activist ones- see all politics as what amounts to a game of pressure politics: you agitate in a certain direction to push things that way.

If that's the way you see politics working- and you are going to give your support, however qualified, to some particular political party... then [b]one option[/b] that makes sense is to give that support to the party that spends the most time governing.

Uncle John

It's much simpler than that.

They aren't really progressives, but they want people to THINK they are. So they want a party which talks a good progressive game, but sells out to the vested interests when they get into government.

It's why they vote Democrat in the States and NuLabour in the UK, as well.

It's good old-fashioned Anglosphere Hypocrisy, of which there is an unending supply!

Uncle John

It's much simpler than that.

They aren't really progressives, but they want people to THINK they are. So they want a party which talks a good progressive game, but sells out to the vested interests when they get into government.

It's why they vote Democrat in the States and NuLabour in the UK, as well.

It's good old-fashioned Anglosphere Hypocrisy, of which there is an unending supply!

Uncle John

It's much simpler than that.

They aren't really progressives, but they want people to THINK they are. So they want a party which talks a good progressive game, but sells out to the vested interests when they get into government.

It's why they vote Democrat in the States and NuLabour in the UK, as well.

It's good old-fashioned Anglosphere Hypocrisy, of which there is an unending supply!

Uncle John

It's much simpler than that.

They aren't really progressives, but they want people to THINK they are. So they want a party which talks a good progressive game, but sells out to the vested interests when they get into government.

It's why they vote Democrat in the States and NuLabour in the UK, as well.

It's good old-fashioned Anglosphere Hypocrisy, of which there is an unending supply!

Caissa

Given the histories of the Progreesive Parties in Canada and the US, I've always considered the term progressive to be both problematic and relatively meaningless.

Caissa

Given the histories of the Progreesive Parties in Canada and the US, I've always considered the term progressive to be both problematic and relatively meaningless.

Caissa

Given the histories of the Progreesive Parties in Canada and the US, I've always considered the term progressive to be both problematic and relatively meaningless.

Caissa

Given the histories of the Progreesive Parties in Canada and the US, I've always considered the term progressive to be both problematic and relatively meaningless.

KenS

There are two different things being said here.

One is that the term 'progressive' is soft or boundless, or that people just want to look progressive, etc.

The other as I have argued is to define leftist / progressive by however rigorous you want, and you will find that in Canada a substantial number of those people consistently vote for the Liberal Party.

I haven't given any evidence that people can check. But even if it is counter-intuitive, do people really find it so unlikely? If so, why?

During the latter Nineties the large and recurring voter behaviour studies found that nationally people who identified themselves as closest to the NDP, were more likely to vote Liberal than NDP. While in BC the NDP-identifiers voted for the NDP second after Reform. [And the long term strength of that voter identification is behind the post-merger erosion of the Conservative vote in BC, expecially in hinterlands.]

Granted, that is a much braoder brush phenomena than the more discrimating questions that have to be asked to look at 'left-identifiers' for the purposes of seeing how they vote. But I brought up the example because it is one more people are familiar with- and how it challenges the simplistic notions left activists tend to have about what motivates voting and other engagement with the broader politics of the public space.

KenS

There are two different things being said here.

One is that the term 'progressive' is soft or boundless, or that people just want to look progressive, etc.

The other as I have argued is to define leftist / progressive by however rigorous you want, and you will find that in Canada a substantial number of those people consistently vote for the Liberal Party.

I haven't given any evidence that people can check. But even if it is counter-intuitive, do people really find it so unlikely? If so, why?

During the latter Nineties the large and recurring voter behaviour studies found that nationally people who identified themselves as closest to the NDP, were more likely to vote Liberal than NDP. While in BC the NDP-identifiers voted for the NDP second after Reform. [And the long term strength of that voter identification is behind the post-merger erosion of the Conservative vote in BC, expecially in hinterlands.]

Granted, that is a much braoder brush phenomena than the more discrimating questions that have to be asked to look at 'left-identifiers' for the purposes of seeing how they vote. But I brought up the example because it is one more people are familiar with- and how it challenges the simplistic notions left activists tend to have about what motivates voting and other engagement with the broader politics of the public space.

KenS

There are two different things being said here.

One is that the term 'progressive' is soft or boundless, or that people just want to look progressive, etc.

The other as I have argued is to define leftist / progressive by however rigorous you want, and you will find that in Canada a substantial number of those people consistently vote for the Liberal Party.

I haven't given any evidence that people can check. But even if it is counter-intuitive, do people really find it so unlikely? If so, why?

During the latter Nineties the large and recurring voter behaviour studies found that nationally people who identified themselves as closest to the NDP, were more likely to vote Liberal than NDP. While in BC the NDP-identifiers voted for the NDP second after Reform. [And the long term strength of that voter identification is behind the post-merger erosion of the Conservative vote in BC, expecially in hinterlands.]

Granted, that is a much braoder brush phenomena than the more discrimating questions that have to be asked to look at 'left-identifiers' for the purposes of seeing how they vote. But I brought up the example because it is one more people are familiar with- and how it challenges the simplistic notions left activists tend to have about what motivates voting and other engagement with the broader politics of the public space.

KenS

There are two different things being said here.

One is that the term 'progressive' is soft or boundless, or that people just want to look progressive, etc.

The other as I have argued is to define leftist / progressive by however rigorous you want, and you will find that in Canada a substantial number of those people consistently vote for the Liberal Party.

I haven't given any evidence that people can check. But even if it is counter-intuitive, do people really find it so unlikely? If so, why?

During the latter Nineties the large and recurring voter behaviour studies found that nationally people who identified themselves as closest to the NDP, were more likely to vote Liberal than NDP. While in BC the NDP-identifiers voted for the NDP second after Reform. [And the long term strength of that voter identification is behind the post-merger erosion of the Conservative vote in BC, expecially in hinterlands.]

Granted, that is a much braoder brush phenomena than the more discrimating questions that have to be asked to look at 'left-identifiers' for the purposes of seeing how they vote. But I brought up the example because it is one more people are familiar with- and how it challenges the simplistic notions left activists tend to have about what motivates voting and other engagement with the broader politics of the public space.

Uncle John

A Liberal Progressive is a person who drives their ethanol-burning SUV to buy fair-trade coffee beans.

"Look at me I'm wonderful, shoobie-doobie wah"

Uncle John

A Liberal Progressive is a person who drives their ethanol-burning SUV to buy fair-trade coffee beans.

"Look at me I'm wonderful, shoobie-doobie wah"

Uncle John

A Liberal Progressive is a person who drives their ethanol-burning SUV to buy fair-trade coffee beans.

"Look at me I'm wonderful, shoobie-doobie wah"

Uncle John

A Liberal Progressive is a person who drives their ethanol-burning SUV to buy fair-trade coffee beans.

"Look at me I'm wonderful, shoobie-doobie wah"

Trevormkidd

quote:


Originally posted by Uncle John:
A Liberal Progressive is a person who drives their ethanol-burning SUV to buy fair-trade coffee beans.

"Look at me I'm wonderful, shoobie-doobie wah"


Are you implying that NDP supporters are different? Real environmentalists? I remember the last local NDP meeting I went to about 5 years ago - at least 90% of the vehicles were SUVs and pickup trucks. Don't know about the coffee beans though.

There seems to be one great consistency that I have found among many NDP and Green Party supporters. The tendency to blame Liberal support on the ignorance of Liberal voters. I disagree. Many Liberal voters I have talked to are repulsed by the strong fringe elements found among many supporters in both parties - they don't mind the party platform, but the supporters drive them crazy. Just as I can be certain that if I talk to couple Conservative supporters at least one of them will go off about the evils of socialized education, health care, legal abortions and the liberal media conspiracy etc, it seems that if I talk to a couple NDP supporters or green supporters at least one of them will go off about some crazy conspiracy theory which will be an absolute certainty in their mind.

Trevormkidd

quote:


Originally posted by Uncle John:
A Liberal Progressive is a person who drives their ethanol-burning SUV to buy fair-trade coffee beans.

"Look at me I'm wonderful, shoobie-doobie wah"


Are you implying that NDP supporters are different? Real environmentalists? I remember the last local NDP meeting I went to about 5 years ago - at least 90% of the vehicles were SUVs and pickup trucks. Don't know about the coffee beans though.

There seems to be one great consistency that I have found among many NDP and Green Party supporters. The tendency to blame Liberal support on the ignorance of Liberal voters. I disagree. Many Liberal voters I have talked to are repulsed by the strong fringe elements found among many supporters in both parties - they don't mind the party platform, but the supporters drive them crazy. Just as I can be certain that if I talk to couple Conservative supporters at least one of them will go off about the evils of socialized education, health care, legal abortions and the liberal media conspiracy etc, it seems that if I talk to a couple NDP supporters or green supporters at least one of them will go off about some crazy conspiracy theory which will be an absolute certainty in their mind.

Trevormkidd

quote:


Originally posted by Uncle John:
A Liberal Progressive is a person who drives their ethanol-burning SUV to buy fair-trade coffee beans.

"Look at me I'm wonderful, shoobie-doobie wah"


Are you implying that NDP supporters are different? Real environmentalists? I remember the last local NDP meeting I went to about 5 years ago - at least 90% of the vehicles were SUVs and pickup trucks. Don't know about the coffee beans though.

There seems to be one great consistency that I have found among many NDP and Green Party supporters. The tendency to blame Liberal support on the ignorance of Liberal voters. I disagree. Many Liberal voters I have talked to are repulsed by the strong fringe elements found among many supporters in both parties - they don't mind the party platform, but the supporters drive them crazy. Just as I can be certain that if I talk to couple Conservative supporters at least one of them will go off about the evils of socialized education, health care, legal abortions and the liberal media conspiracy etc, it seems that if I talk to a couple NDP supporters or green supporters at least one of them will go off about some crazy conspiracy theory which will be an absolute certainty in their mind.

Trevormkidd

quote:


Originally posted by Uncle John:
A Liberal Progressive is a person who drives their ethanol-burning SUV to buy fair-trade coffee beans.

"Look at me I'm wonderful, shoobie-doobie wah"


Are you implying that NDP supporters are different? Real environmentalists? I remember the last local NDP meeting I went to about 5 years ago - at least 90% of the vehicles were SUVs and pickup trucks. Don't know about the coffee beans though.

There seems to be one great consistency that I have found among many NDP and Green Party supporters. The tendency to blame Liberal support on the ignorance of Liberal voters. I disagree. Many Liberal voters I have talked to are repulsed by the strong fringe elements found among many supporters in both parties - they don't mind the party platform, but the supporters drive them crazy. Just as I can be certain that if I talk to couple Conservative supporters at least one of them will go off about the evils of socialized education, health care, legal abortions and the liberal media conspiracy etc, it seems that if I talk to a couple NDP supporters or green supporters at least one of them will go off about some crazy conspiracy theory which will be an absolute certainty in their mind.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

quote:


Originally posted by Trevormkidd:
[b]

Are you implying that NDP supporters are different? Real environmentalists? I remember the last local NDP meeting I went to about 5 years ago - at least 90% of the vehicles were SUVs and pickup trucks. Don't know about the coffee beans though.

There seems to be one great consistency that I have found among many NDP and Green Party supporters. The tendency to blame Liberal support on the ignorance of Liberal voters. I disagree. Many Liberal voters I have talked to are repulsed by the strong fringe elements found among many supporters in both parties - they don't mind the party platform, but the supporters drive them crazy. Just as I can be certain that if I talk to couple Conservative supporters at least one of them will go off about the evils of socialized education, health care, legal abortions and the liberal media conspiracy etc, it seems that if I talk to a couple NDP supporters or green supporters at least one of them will go off about some crazy conspiracy theory which will be an absolute certainty in their mind.[/b]


Maybe that is the real difference. Liberals accept the pap spewed at them from the MSM as truth and when people talk as if the MSM is nuts they are scared of them. They just don't want to hear the truth because it is scary.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

quote:


Originally posted by Trevormkidd:
[b]

Are you implying that NDP supporters are different? Real environmentalists? I remember the last local NDP meeting I went to about 5 years ago - at least 90% of the vehicles were SUVs and pickup trucks. Don't know about the coffee beans though.

There seems to be one great consistency that I have found among many NDP and Green Party supporters. The tendency to blame Liberal support on the ignorance of Liberal voters. I disagree. Many Liberal voters I have talked to are repulsed by the strong fringe elements found among many supporters in both parties - they don't mind the party platform, but the supporters drive them crazy. Just as I can be certain that if I talk to couple Conservative supporters at least one of them will go off about the evils of socialized education, health care, legal abortions and the liberal media conspiracy etc, it seems that if I talk to a couple NDP supporters or green supporters at least one of them will go off about some crazy conspiracy theory which will be an absolute certainty in their mind.[/b]


Maybe that is the real difference. Liberals accept the pap spewed at them from the MSM as truth and when people talk as if the MSM is nuts they are scared of them. They just don't want to hear the truth because it is scary.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

quote:


Originally posted by Trevormkidd:
[b]

Are you implying that NDP supporters are different? Real environmentalists? I remember the last local NDP meeting I went to about 5 years ago - at least 90% of the vehicles were SUVs and pickup trucks. Don't know about the coffee beans though.

There seems to be one great consistency that I have found among many NDP and Green Party supporters. The tendency to blame Liberal support on the ignorance of Liberal voters. I disagree. Many Liberal voters I have talked to are repulsed by the strong fringe elements found among many supporters in both parties - they don't mind the party platform, but the supporters drive them crazy. Just as I can be certain that if I talk to couple Conservative supporters at least one of them will go off about the evils of socialized education, health care, legal abortions and the liberal media conspiracy etc, it seems that if I talk to a couple NDP supporters or green supporters at least one of them will go off about some crazy conspiracy theory which will be an absolute certainty in their mind.[/b]


Maybe that is the real difference. Liberals accept the pap spewed at them from the MSM as truth and when people talk as if the MSM is nuts they are scared of them. They just don't want to hear the truth because it is scary.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

quote:


Originally posted by Trevormkidd:
[b]

Are you implying that NDP supporters are different? Real environmentalists? I remember the last local NDP meeting I went to about 5 years ago - at least 90% of the vehicles were SUVs and pickup trucks. Don't know about the coffee beans though.

There seems to be one great consistency that I have found among many NDP and Green Party supporters. The tendency to blame Liberal support on the ignorance of Liberal voters. I disagree. Many Liberal voters I have talked to are repulsed by the strong fringe elements found among many supporters in both parties - they don't mind the party platform, but the supporters drive them crazy. Just as I can be certain that if I talk to couple Conservative supporters at least one of them will go off about the evils of socialized education, health care, legal abortions and the liberal media conspiracy etc, it seems that if I talk to a couple NDP supporters or green supporters at least one of them will go off about some crazy conspiracy theory which will be an absolute certainty in their mind.[/b]


Maybe that is the real difference. Liberals accept the pap spewed at them from the MSM as truth and when people talk as if the MSM is nuts they are scared of them. They just don't want to hear the truth because it is scary.

KenS

Hey Trevor- there is something else Green and NDP activists have in common: they are Better at absorbing Received Wisdom from The Waves... through our pores I guess.

KenS

Hey Trevor- there is something else Green and NDP activists have in common: they are Better at absorbing Received Wisdom from The Waves... through our pores I guess.

KenS

Hey Trevor- there is something else Green and NDP activists have in common: they are Better at absorbing Received Wisdom from The Waves... through our pores I guess.

KenS

Hey Trevor- there is something else Green and NDP activists have in common: they are Better at absorbing Received Wisdom from The Waves... through our pores I guess.

wage zombie

quote:


Originally posted by Malcolm French, APR:
[b]Aided, of course, by a few pretendy progressives who present themselves as leader while shamelessly attacking any truly progressive alternative. Basil Hargrove. Maude Barlow. Elizabeth May.[/b]

I don't think Maude Barlow deserves to be lumped in with those two and i don't think it's fair to call her a pretendy progressive.

wage zombie

quote:


Originally posted by Malcolm French, APR:
[b]Aided, of course, by a few pretendy progressives who present themselves as leader while shamelessly attacking any truly progressive alternative. Basil Hargrove. Maude Barlow. Elizabeth May.[/b]

I don't think Maude Barlow deserves to be lumped in with those two and i don't think it's fair to call her a pretendy progressive.

wage zombie

quote:


Originally posted by Malcolm French, APR:
[b]Aided, of course, by a few pretendy progressives who present themselves as leader while shamelessly attacking any truly progressive alternative. Basil Hargrove. Maude Barlow. Elizabeth May.[/b]

I don't think Maude Barlow deserves to be lumped in with those two and i don't think it's fair to call her a pretendy progressive.

wage zombie

quote:


Originally posted by Malcolm French, APR:
[b]Aided, of course, by a few pretendy progressives who present themselves as leader while shamelessly attacking any truly progressive alternative. Basil Hargrove. Maude Barlow. Elizabeth May.[/b]

I don't think Maude Barlow deserves to be lumped in with those two and i don't think it's fair to call her a pretendy progressive.

JKR

And why have two recent NDP premiers become members of Parliament for the Liberals? This is remarkable considering how few former NDP premiers there are. Why didn't Bob Rae and Ujjal Dosanj join the federal NDP?

JKR

And why have two recent NDP premiers become members of Parliament for the Liberals? This is remarkable considering how few former NDP premiers there are. Why didn't Bob Rae and Ujjal Dosanj join the federal NDP?

JKR

And why have two recent NDP premiers become members of Parliament for the Liberals? This is remarkable considering how few former NDP premiers there are. Why didn't Bob Rae and Ujjal Dosanj join the federal NDP?

JKR

And why have two recent NDP premiers become members of Parliament for the Liberals? This is remarkable considering how few former NDP premiers there are. Why didn't Bob Rae and Ujjal Dosanj join the federal NDP?

KenS

Bob Rae's career as an NDP politician was finished. If Dosanjh had run for MP as NDP he may or may not have been elected, with the Libs he was a shoo-in into Cabinet.

That's not a complete answer of course. What about little things like principles and integrity, and personal loyalty [with Ujjal at least]?

But you asked the question. And that's what starts them thinking. "I'm used to being a big profile politician. And I wasn't ready to pack it in. ...."

KenS

Bob Rae's career as an NDP politician was finished. If Dosanjh had run for MP as NDP he may or may not have been elected, with the Libs he was a shoo-in into Cabinet.

That's not a complete answer of course. What about little things like principles and integrity, and personal loyalty [with Ujjal at least]?

But you asked the question. And that's what starts them thinking. "I'm used to being a big profile politician. And I wasn't ready to pack it in. ...."

KenS

Bob Rae's career as an NDP politician was finished. If Dosanjh had run for MP as NDP he may or may not have been elected, with the Libs he was a shoo-in into Cabinet.

That's not a complete answer of course. What about little things like principles and integrity, and personal loyalty [with Ujjal at least]?

But you asked the question. And that's what starts them thinking. "I'm used to being a big profile politician. And I wasn't ready to pack it in. ...."

KenS

Bob Rae's career as an NDP politician was finished. If Dosanjh had run for MP as NDP he may or may not have been elected, with the Libs he was a shoo-in into Cabinet.

That's not a complete answer of course. What about little things like principles and integrity, and personal loyalty [with Ujjal at least]?

But you asked the question. And that's what starts them thinking. "I'm used to being a big profile politician. And I wasn't ready to pack it in. ...."

Wilf Day

quote:


Originally posted by Erik Redburn:
[b]Or is it mostly the scarey Harper scenario now, where they're still seen as the only other realistic but non-scarey alternative available?[/b]

Now you've got it, at least in this part of Ontario.

Provincially John Tory was doing so well with his Bill Davis imitation last year -- right up until he went off on his faith-based schools flyer -- that he was no scarier than Dalton McGuinty, and might well have won a minority government with a good contingent of New Democrats holding the balance of power. One of history's might-have-beens.

quote:

Originally posted by KenS:
[b]There have been studies where academics studying voting behaviour ask detailed questions to place people on something like a left/right political spectrum.

There are still a significant number of people clearly left who consistently vote for the Liberals. And that isn't all explained by 'strategic voting' [them voting for the candidate with the chance of winning for a particular election].[/b]


Are they mostly in Quebec, where the NDP's roots are shallow? Other than them, who? Those with a weak sense of Canada, who identify with US-style pressure-group politics (such as "Gompers-style" trade unionism), and identify the Liberal Party as the "Democratic Party (Canada) Inc."?

quote:

Originally posted by JKR:
[b]Why didn't Bob Rae and Ujjal Dosanj join the federal NDP?[/b]

Bob Rae got over his youthful rebellion against his Liberal family; and in hindsight he had gotten over it by 1990 (remember he had planned to resign as leader right after the election he never expected to win.)

Ujjal Dosanjh I don't know the explanation.

Wilf Day

quote:


Originally posted by Erik Redburn:
[b]Or is it mostly the scarey Harper scenario now, where they're still seen as the only other realistic but non-scarey alternative available?[/b]

Now you've got it, at least in this part of Ontario.

Provincially John Tory was doing so well with his Bill Davis imitation last year -- right up until he went off on his faith-based schools flyer -- that he was no scarier than Dalton McGuinty, and might well have won a minority government with a good contingent of New Democrats holding the balance of power. One of history's might-have-beens.

quote:

Originally posted by KenS:
[b]There have been studies where academics studying voting behaviour ask detailed questions to place people on something like a left/right political spectrum.

There are still a significant number of people clearly left who consistently vote for the Liberals. And that isn't all explained by 'strategic voting' [them voting for the candidate with the chance of winning for a particular election].[/b]


Are they mostly in Quebec, where the NDP's roots are shallow? Other than them, who? Those with a weak sense of Canada, who identify with US-style pressure-group politics (such as "Gompers-style" trade unionism), and identify the Liberal Party as the "Democratic Party (Canada) Inc."?

quote:

Originally posted by JKR:
[b]Why didn't Bob Rae and Ujjal Dosanj join the federal NDP?[/b]

Bob Rae got over his youthful rebellion against his Liberal family; and in hindsight he had gotten over it by 1990 (remember he had planned to resign as leader right after the election he never expected to win.)

Ujjal Dosanjh I don't know the explanation.

Wilf Day

quote:


Originally posted by Erik Redburn:
[b]Or is it mostly the scarey Harper scenario now, where they're still seen as the only other realistic but non-scarey alternative available?[/b]

Now you've got it, at least in this part of Ontario.

Provincially John Tory was doing so well with his Bill Davis imitation last year -- right up until he went off on his faith-based schools flyer -- that he was no scarier than Dalton McGuinty, and might well have won a minority government with a good contingent of New Democrats holding the balance of power. One of history's might-have-beens.

quote:

Originally posted by KenS:
[b]There have been studies where academics studying voting behaviour ask detailed questions to place people on something like a left/right political spectrum.

There are still a significant number of people clearly left who consistently vote for the Liberals. And that isn't all explained by 'strategic voting' [them voting for the candidate with the chance of winning for a particular election].[/b]


Are they mostly in Quebec, where the NDP's roots are shallow? Other than them, who? Those with a weak sense of Canada, who identify with US-style pressure-group politics (such as "Gompers-style" trade unionism), and identify the Liberal Party as the "Democratic Party (Canada) Inc."?

quote:

Originally posted by JKR:
[b]Why didn't Bob Rae and Ujjal Dosanj join the federal NDP?[/b]

Bob Rae got over his youthful rebellion against his Liberal family; and in hindsight he had gotten over it by 1990 (remember he had planned to resign as leader right after the election he never expected to win.)

Ujjal Dosanjh I don't know the explanation.

Wilf Day

quote:


Originally posted by Erik Redburn:
[b]Or is it mostly the scarey Harper scenario now, where they're still seen as the only other realistic but non-scarey alternative available?[/b]

Now you've got it, at least in this part of Ontario.

Provincially John Tory was doing so well with his Bill Davis imitation last year -- right up until he went off on his faith-based schools flyer -- that he was no scarier than Dalton McGuinty, and might well have won a minority government with a good contingent of New Democrats holding the balance of power. One of history's might-have-beens.

quote:

Originally posted by KenS:
[b]There have been studies where academics studying voting behaviour ask detailed questions to place people on something like a left/right political spectrum.

There are still a significant number of people clearly left who consistently vote for the Liberals. And that isn't all explained by 'strategic voting' [them voting for the candidate with the chance of winning for a particular election].[/b]


Are they mostly in Quebec, where the NDP's roots are shallow? Other than them, who? Those with a weak sense of Canada, who identify with US-style pressure-group politics (such as "Gompers-style" trade unionism), and identify the Liberal Party as the "Democratic Party (Canada) Inc."?

quote:

Originally posted by JKR:
[b]Why didn't Bob Rae and Ujjal Dosanj join the federal NDP?[/b]

Bob Rae got over his youthful rebellion against his Liberal family; and in hindsight he had gotten over it by 1990 (remember he had planned to resign as leader right after the election he never expected to win.)

Ujjal Dosanjh I don't know the explanation.

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