So why DO so many 'progressives' remain with the Liberals anyhow?

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kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

I didn't vote for Ujjal and urged all my fellow NDP'ers to not make him the leader. He was always a Liberal that's why I opposed him and that is what I called him. His views have always aligned with the federal liberals.

I think it has to do with the period when he entered provincial politics. There were only two parties in BC provincial politics; the Socreds and the NDP. There was no provincial Liberal party of any substance at that point in history and had not been for over a decade.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

I didn't vote for Ujjal and urged all my fellow NDP'ers to not make him the leader. He was always a Liberal that's why I opposed him and that is what I called him. His views have always aligned with the federal liberals.

I think it has to do with the period when he entered provincial politics. There were only two parties in BC provincial politics; the Socreds and the NDP. There was no provincial Liberal party of any substance at that point in history and had not been for over a decade.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

I didn't vote for Ujjal and urged all my fellow NDP'ers to not make him the leader. He was always a Liberal that's why I opposed him and that is what I called him. His views have always aligned with the federal liberals.

I think it has to do with the period when he entered provincial politics. There were only two parties in BC provincial politics; the Socreds and the NDP. There was no provincial Liberal party of any substance at that point in history and had not been for over a decade.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

I didn't vote for Ujjal and urged all my fellow NDP'ers to not make him the leader. He was always a Liberal that's why I opposed him and that is what I called him. His views have always aligned with the federal liberals.

I think it has to do with the period when he entered provincial politics. There were only two parties in BC provincial politics; the Socreds and the NDP. There was no provincial Liberal party of any substance at that point in history and had not been for over a decade.

Malcolm Malcolm's picture

quote:


Originally posted by wage zombie:
[b]

I don't think Maude Barlow deserves to be lumped in with those two and i don't think it's fair to call her a pretendy progressive.[/b]


Then let her withdraw from the "Don't Think - Vote Liberal" coalition. Until then, she is just another unprincipled pretendy progressive apologist for a right wing political party.

[ 25 April 2008: Message edited by: Malcolm French, APR ]

Malcolm Malcolm's picture

quote:


Originally posted by wage zombie:
[b]

I don't think Maude Barlow deserves to be lumped in with those two and i don't think it's fair to call her a pretendy progressive.[/b]


Then let her withdraw from the "Don't Think - Vote Liberal" coalition. Until then, she is just another unprincipled pretendy progressive apologist for a right wing political party.

[ 25 April 2008: Message edited by: Malcolm French, APR ]

Malcolm Malcolm's picture

quote:


Originally posted by wage zombie:
[b]

I don't think Maude Barlow deserves to be lumped in with those two and i don't think it's fair to call her a pretendy progressive.[/b]


Then let her withdraw from the "Don't Think - Vote Liberal" coalition. Until then, she is just another unprincipled pretendy progressive apologist for a right wing political party.

[ 25 April 2008: Message edited by: Malcolm French, APR ]

Malcolm Malcolm's picture

quote:


Originally posted by wage zombie:
[b]

I don't think Maude Barlow deserves to be lumped in with those two and i don't think it's fair to call her a pretendy progressive.[/b]


Then let her withdraw from the "Don't Think - Vote Liberal" coalition. Until then, she is just another unprincipled pretendy progressive apologist for a right wing political party.

[ 25 April 2008: Message edited by: Malcolm French, APR ]

Malcolm Malcolm's picture

The left can learn a lot from the North American right in the 1950s - 1980s.

In the US, the right wing Republicans were in decline and the leadership of the Republican Party was in the hands of Rockefeller Republican moderates. The Dixiecrats were increasingly marginalized in the Democratic Party. The right was marginalized and hit their nadir with the crushing defeat of Barry ("extremism in the defence of liberty is no vice") Goldwater in the 1964 Presidential election.

So the right set out to move themselves out of the margins and change people's minds. They used political and non-political movements to advance their agenda. They built up their own right wing alternatives to the establishment media.

The left could do that. The left should do that. The left must do that.

But every time it is suggested (including on babble), the usual suspects come along to poo-poo the idea.

In no small part, this is a symptom of a cultural dysfunction among Canadian leftists who prefer the perverse comfort of marginalization.

After all, if we built a truly viable progressive political movement in Canada, it would take work. So much easier to sit on the sidelines, self-righteously sniping and sipping steamed soymilk.

Malcolm Malcolm's picture

The left can learn a lot from the North American right in the 1950s - 1980s.

In the US, the right wing Republicans were in decline and the leadership of the Republican Party was in the hands of Rockefeller Republican moderates. The Dixiecrats were increasingly marginalized in the Democratic Party. The right was marginalized and hit their nadir with the crushing defeat of Barry ("extremism in the defence of liberty is no vice") Goldwater in the 1964 Presidential election.

So the right set out to move themselves out of the margins and change people's minds. They used political and non-political movements to advance their agenda. They built up their own right wing alternatives to the establishment media.

The left could do that. The left should do that. The left must do that.

But every time it is suggested (including on babble), the usual suspects come along to poo-poo the idea.

In no small part, this is a symptom of a cultural dysfunction among Canadian leftists who prefer the perverse comfort of marginalization.

After all, if we built a truly viable progressive political movement in Canada, it would take work. So much easier to sit on the sidelines, self-righteously sniping and sipping steamed soymilk.

Malcolm Malcolm's picture

The left can learn a lot from the North American right in the 1950s - 1980s.

In the US, the right wing Republicans were in decline and the leadership of the Republican Party was in the hands of Rockefeller Republican moderates. The Dixiecrats were increasingly marginalized in the Democratic Party. The right was marginalized and hit their nadir with the crushing defeat of Barry ("extremism in the defence of liberty is no vice") Goldwater in the 1964 Presidential election.

So the right set out to move themselves out of the margins and change people's minds. They used political and non-political movements to advance their agenda. They built up their own right wing alternatives to the establishment media.

The left could do that. The left should do that. The left must do that.

But every time it is suggested (including on babble), the usual suspects come along to poo-poo the idea.

In no small part, this is a symptom of a cultural dysfunction among Canadian leftists who prefer the perverse comfort of marginalization.

After all, if we built a truly viable progressive political movement in Canada, it would take work. So much easier to sit on the sidelines, self-righteously sniping and sipping steamed soymilk.

Malcolm Malcolm's picture

The left can learn a lot from the North American right in the 1950s - 1980s.

In the US, the right wing Republicans were in decline and the leadership of the Republican Party was in the hands of Rockefeller Republican moderates. The Dixiecrats were increasingly marginalized in the Democratic Party. The right was marginalized and hit their nadir with the crushing defeat of Barry ("extremism in the defence of liberty is no vice") Goldwater in the 1964 Presidential election.

So the right set out to move themselves out of the margins and change people's minds. They used political and non-political movements to advance their agenda. They built up their own right wing alternatives to the establishment media.

The left could do that. The left should do that. The left must do that.

But every time it is suggested (including on babble), the usual suspects come along to poo-poo the idea.

In no small part, this is a symptom of a cultural dysfunction among Canadian leftists who prefer the perverse comfort of marginalization.

After all, if we built a truly viable progressive political movement in Canada, it would take work. So much easier to sit on the sidelines, self-righteously sniping and sipping steamed soymilk.

wage zombie

Don't get me wrong--we should argue against any suggestion that voting Liberal will bring about progressive changes.

But with her leadership on water rights and fighting the SPP i think that Maude Barlow's progressive credentials are beyond reproach. She is doing a lot more to promote awareness of these issues than the NDP.

As a dipper i want a strong and bold NDP, and i think if we the NDP were stronger and bolder then we would appeal more to people like Barlow. Say whatever you like about May and Hargrove, but attacking bona fide progressives--especially those like Barlow who have mass followings--will not get us where we want to be.

It's not like she was hugging Paul Martin on stage or anything, keep some perspective.

wage zombie

Don't get me wrong--we should argue against any suggestion that voting Liberal will bring about progressive changes.

But with her leadership on water rights and fighting the SPP i think that Maude Barlow's progressive credentials are beyond reproach. She is doing a lot more to promote awareness of these issues than the NDP.

As a dipper i want a strong and bold NDP, and i think if we the NDP were stronger and bolder then we would appeal more to people like Barlow. Say whatever you like about May and Hargrove, but attacking bona fide progressives--especially those like Barlow who have mass followings--will not get us where we want to be.

It's not like she was hugging Paul Martin on stage or anything, keep some perspective.

wage zombie

Don't get me wrong--we should argue against any suggestion that voting Liberal will bring about progressive changes.

But with her leadership on water rights and fighting the SPP i think that Maude Barlow's progressive credentials are beyond reproach. She is doing a lot more to promote awareness of these issues than the NDP.

As a dipper i want a strong and bold NDP, and i think if we the NDP were stronger and bolder then we would appeal more to people like Barlow. Say whatever you like about May and Hargrove, but attacking bona fide progressives--especially those like Barlow who have mass followings--will not get us where we want to be.

It's not like she was hugging Paul Martin on stage or anything, keep some perspective.

wage zombie

Don't get me wrong--we should argue against any suggestion that voting Liberal will bring about progressive changes.

But with her leadership on water rights and fighting the SPP i think that Maude Barlow's progressive credentials are beyond reproach. She is doing a lot more to promote awareness of these issues than the NDP.

As a dipper i want a strong and bold NDP, and i think if we the NDP were stronger and bolder then we would appeal more to people like Barlow. Say whatever you like about May and Hargrove, but attacking bona fide progressives--especially those like Barlow who have mass followings--will not get us where we want to be.

It's not like she was hugging Paul Martin on stage or anything, keep some perspective.

Malcolm Malcolm's picture

My perspective is that she has been actively undermining the NDP for at least 20 years now.

If it walks like an unprincipled Liberal apologist and it talks like an unprincipled Liberal apologist . . .

Malcolm Malcolm's picture

My perspective is that she has been actively undermining the NDP for at least 20 years now.

If it walks like an unprincipled Liberal apologist and it talks like an unprincipled Liberal apologist . . .

Malcolm Malcolm's picture

My perspective is that she has been actively undermining the NDP for at least 20 years now.

If it walks like an unprincipled Liberal apologist and it talks like an unprincipled Liberal apologist . . .

Malcolm Malcolm's picture

My perspective is that she has been actively undermining the NDP for at least 20 years now.

If it walks like an unprincipled Liberal apologist and it talks like an unprincipled Liberal apologist . . .

Erik Redburn

I agree with much of what you're saying Malcolm but I don't see it with Barlow. Maudey was consistently critical of the Chretien/Martin regimes too; she just tries to remain non-partisan in her role as an anti-integrationist lobbyist.

[ 25 April 2008: Message edited by: Erik Redburn ]

Erik Redburn

I agree with much of what you're saying Malcolm but I don't see it with Barlow. Maudey was consistently critical of the Chretien/Martin regimes too; she just tries to remain non-partisan in her role as an anti-integrationist lobbyist.

[ 25 April 2008: Message edited by: Erik Redburn ]

Erik Redburn

I agree with much of what you're saying Malcolm but I don't see it with Barlow. Maudey was consistently critical of the Chretien/Martin regimes too; she just tries to remain non-partisan in her role as an anti-integrationist lobbyist.

[ 25 April 2008: Message edited by: Erik Redburn ]

Erik Redburn

I agree with much of what you're saying Malcolm but I don't see it with Barlow. Maudey was consistently critical of the Chretien/Martin regimes too; she just tries to remain non-partisan in her role as an anti-integrationist lobbyist.

[ 25 April 2008: Message edited by: Erik Redburn ]

wage zombie

I don't think she walks and talks like an unprincipled Liberal apologist. If you want to try to convince me by substantiating your claim, be my guest. All you're doing is calling her names without backing anything up.

Please, if she's so unprinicipled, tell me why, because right now i think she's pretty darn inspiring. If i'm wrong i want to know it. And if you can focus on the last couple years (rather than something from the 80s) you'll be more likely to persuade me.

wage zombie

I don't think she walks and talks like an unprincipled Liberal apologist. If you want to try to convince me by substantiating your claim, be my guest. All you're doing is calling her names without backing anything up.

Please, if she's so unprinicipled, tell me why, because right now i think she's pretty darn inspiring. If i'm wrong i want to know it. And if you can focus on the last couple years (rather than something from the 80s) you'll be more likely to persuade me.

wage zombie

I don't think she walks and talks like an unprincipled Liberal apologist. If you want to try to convince me by substantiating your claim, be my guest. All you're doing is calling her names without backing anything up.

Please, if she's so unprinicipled, tell me why, because right now i think she's pretty darn inspiring. If i'm wrong i want to know it. And if you can focus on the last couple years (rather than something from the 80s) you'll be more likely to persuade me.

wage zombie

I don't think she walks and talks like an unprincipled Liberal apologist. If you want to try to convince me by substantiating your claim, be my guest. All you're doing is calling her names without backing anything up.

Please, if she's so unprinicipled, tell me why, because right now i think she's pretty darn inspiring. If i'm wrong i want to know it. And if you can focus on the last couple years (rather than something from the 80s) you'll be more likely to persuade me.

remind remind's picture

I think it is time for a name change for the NDP. It has been something that I have been mulling over for awhile now, since it was initially discussed again a few months back.

In fact, I believe it should start with the word "progressive" as it is a label that is available again in the Canadian political arena and we should utilize it.

Like:

Progressive Coalition Party of Canada. PCPC

Progressive Democratic Party of Canada. PDPC

or just

Progressive Democratic Party. PDP

----------------------------
On anpother note:

Progressive Green Democratic Party of Canada PGDP

Or

Environmental Progressive Party. EPP [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]

remind remind's picture

I think it is time for a name change for the NDP. It has been something that I have been mulling over for awhile now, since it was initially discussed again a few months back.

In fact, I believe it should start with the word "progressive" as it is a label that is available again in the Canadian political arena and we should utilize it.

Like:

Progressive Coalition Party of Canada. PCPC

Progressive Democratic Party of Canada. PDPC

or just

Progressive Democratic Party. PDP

----------------------------
On anpother note:

Progressive Green Democratic Party of Canada PGDP

Or

Environmental Progressive Party. EPP [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]

remind remind's picture

I think it is time for a name change for the NDP. It has been something that I have been mulling over for awhile now, since it was initially discussed again a few months back.

In fact, I believe it should start with the word "progressive" as it is a label that is available again in the Canadian political arena and we should utilize it.

Like:

Progressive Coalition Party of Canada. PCPC

Progressive Democratic Party of Canada. PDPC

or just

Progressive Democratic Party. PDP

----------------------------
On anpother note:

Progressive Green Democratic Party of Canada PGDP

Or

Environmental Progressive Party. EPP [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]

remind remind's picture

I think it is time for a name change for the NDP. It has been something that I have been mulling over for awhile now, since it was initially discussed again a few months back.

In fact, I believe it should start with the word "progressive" as it is a label that is available again in the Canadian political arena and we should utilize it.

Like:

Progressive Coalition Party of Canada. PCPC

Progressive Democratic Party of Canada. PDPC

or just

Progressive Democratic Party. PDP

----------------------------
On anpother note:

Progressive Green Democratic Party of Canada PGDP

Or

Environmental Progressive Party. EPP [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Erik Redburn

Not bad. Not sure of Jake Epp would approve though. ...

I've been thinking along similar lines again actually -long as a name change signals some other meaningful changes. (some) Maybe it's time to resurrect the NPI again. (sound of eyes rolling in the background) HOw does the Progressive Federation of Canadians, the PFC, sound? The Federation word ought to ward off anti-union Tories and the Progressive part ought to motivate the Reds. [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Erik Redburn

Not bad. Not sure of Jake Epp would approve though. ...

I've been thinking along similar lines again actually -long as a name change signals some other meaningful changes. (some) Maybe it's time to resurrect the NPI again. (sound of eyes rolling in the background) HOw does the Progressive Federation of Canadians, the PFC, sound? The Federation word ought to ward off anti-union Tories and the Progressive part ought to motivate the Reds. [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Erik Redburn

Not bad. Not sure of Jake Epp would approve though. ...

I've been thinking along similar lines again actually -long as a name change signals some other meaningful changes. (some) Maybe it's time to resurrect the NPI again. (sound of eyes rolling in the background) HOw does the Progressive Federation of Canadians, the PFC, sound? The Federation word ought to ward off anti-union Tories and the Progressive part ought to motivate the Reds. [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Erik Redburn

Not bad. Not sure of Jake Epp would approve though. ...

I've been thinking along similar lines again actually -long as a name change signals some other meaningful changes. (some) Maybe it's time to resurrect the NPI again. (sound of eyes rolling in the background) HOw does the Progressive Federation of Canadians, the PFC, sound? The Federation word ought to ward off anti-union Tories and the Progressive part ought to motivate the Reds. [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Erik Redburn

Something with the word "citizen" in it would be good too IMO. And I always liked the coalition word. But I digress.

Erik Redburn

Something with the word "citizen" in it would be good too IMO. And I always liked the coalition word. But I digress.

Erik Redburn

Something with the word "citizen" in it would be good too IMO. And I always liked the coalition word. But I digress.

Erik Redburn

Something with the word "citizen" in it would be good too IMO. And I always liked the coalition word. But I digress.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

I think retro would be good. How about Cooperative Commonwealth Federation. I would also be in favour of reinstating the Regina Manifesto.

But I actually also think we need to rename the party and it should include the word cooperative. Maybe Cooperative Green Party

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

I think retro would be good. How about Cooperative Commonwealth Federation. I would also be in favour of reinstating the Regina Manifesto.

But I actually also think we need to rename the party and it should include the word cooperative. Maybe Cooperative Green Party

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

I think retro would be good. How about Cooperative Commonwealth Federation. I would also be in favour of reinstating the Regina Manifesto.

But I actually also think we need to rename the party and it should include the word cooperative. Maybe Cooperative Green Party

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

I think retro would be good. How about Cooperative Commonwealth Federation. I would also be in favour of reinstating the Regina Manifesto.

But I actually also think we need to rename the party and it should include the word cooperative. Maybe Cooperative Green Party

remind remind's picture

Well, the time is now to discuss this as the convention is coming up ya know, or we will hgave to wait another 2 years.

remind remind's picture

Well, the time is now to discuss this as the convention is coming up ya know, or we will hgave to wait another 2 years.

remind remind's picture

Well, the time is now to discuss this as the convention is coming up ya know, or we will hgave to wait another 2 years.

remind remind's picture

Well, the time is now to discuss this as the convention is coming up ya know, or we will hgave to wait another 2 years.

Erik Redburn

I'm afraid that might be seen as little too retro to most potential members now. Matter of opinion but I think any "new" NDp would need to be seen as looking forward. OTOH Cooperative or Commonwealth could fit into any new name by themselves, and more updated and meaningful constitution could be healthy invitation for more serious debate over new direction. Post-Fordist corporatism will be an even harder beast to get a handle on IMO than pre-Fordist capitalism. Kind of straying from the Liberal topic here though.

Erik Redburn

I'm afraid that might be seen as little too retro to most potential members now. Matter of opinion but I think any "new" NDp would need to be seen as looking forward. OTOH Cooperative or Commonwealth could fit into any new name by themselves, and more updated and meaningful constitution could be healthy invitation for more serious debate over new direction. Post-Fordist corporatism will be an even harder beast to get a handle on IMO than pre-Fordist capitalism. Kind of straying from the Liberal topic here though.

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