"Stick a fork in the Liberals, they're done" by one of most prominent Liberals in Canada

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simonvallee

Arthur Cramer wrote:

simonvallee wrote:

I think those who think the Liberals are dead under Rae are gravely mistaking.

First, Rae is an excellent politician, he has consistantly outmaneuvered the NDP and focused media attention on him with his work as opposition leader. He has even been chosen by his peers as the best parliamentarian, which, considering how few Liberals there are, is quite a feat.

You know, I am really tired of being told about how Rae "consistently outmanouvered the NDP...". In actual fact, all that really happened is the MSM did what it ususally does. It ignored the NDP because it choose to; pure and simple, that is ALL that happened. And, by the way, he ISN'T nor ever was, the "Opposition Leader". Look, the MSM meme even makes it onto Rabble!

ETA: And 1 other thing. Where are the Libs in the polls? I don't see them tied with the Tories, or even running second, or even really coming back great guns in Qubec. Outside of Ontario, at least at the moment, they have their problems. I guess Nycole Turmel did pretty well after all if after all this time, we seemed to have held onto most of our  support. I have to admit some glee about their Prarire numbers, by the way.  It gives me  hope we'll finally be able to get rid once and for all of that scum bag Kevin Lamoureux and it won't be too soon!

Nope, this is a big weekend and as I posted somewhere else, "the times they are a-changin'"!

 

It may be true that the media doesn't like the NDP, but I think that blaming the media for all the problems of the NDP is pure denial. When the NDP does good, it can beat the barriers it meets in the media, look at what Jack achieved. The truth is that the media rarely lies outright... bias manifests itself mainly by exaggerating realities and preferring certain stories over others. If the NDP didn't provide ammo to the media, and if Bob Rae wasn't doing a good job, he would not have achieved what he achieved.

Historically, one problem of the NDP politicians is that they tend to prefer talking to each other than talking to voters in general.

"Opposition leader" is not a meme. Bob Rae is the leader of the Liberal party, which is an opposition party in Parliament, therefore he is an "opposition leader"... just not THE "opposition leader" nor the "leader of the official opposition". Back in 2005, Harper, Duceppe and Jack were all called "opposition leaders", go Google the term, you'll see.

The Liberals are also back above 20% in Québec, which is quite a bit of progress compared to the 14% they got last election. They aren't surging, but they are rebuilding.

Sean in Ottawa

In fairness to Kinsella, there is no evidence whatsoever that he hates Rae. I think he hates the Harper government and in that we have something in common with him. He is a Liberal loyalist who concluded that Rae being crowned would not be good for their party and that is a fair comment for him to make. I am not friends with Kinsella but I see no reason to dig for weird motivations when the obvious surface ones explain what he is saying and doing. He thinks Rae would hurt his party and he does not want that to happen; he also wants to see Harper removed from office by a party able to do that.

KenS

And he always overstates his case.

His agenda is that the Liberal Party has to change a LOT. Preferably merge with the NDP, but if not that, tinkering will just not do.

A coronation of Rae gets in the way of shaking things up. That is what he is against, not Bob Rae as leader per se. But he'll say most anything in service to that.

He means what he says. But he has more respect for Rae than a lot of people in the Liberal party, let alone the previous 2 leaders.

KenS

If the Liberal party was on a track that he was comfortable with, Kinsella would not bother himself with what Rae's history is going to do.

He's a Cassandra saying that the party is soon over- anyway. And Having Bob Rae as the 'pretty face' is just going to be the coup de grace.

NorthReport

It is over for the Liberals. And Harper is helping to ensure that by the new political party financing rules. It's about money, it's always about money unfortunately, but at least we realize this.

NDP leadership winner to sets sights on 24 Sussex

 

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1151254--ndp-leaders...

For the New Democrats, to be realistically plotting for 24 Sussex is heady stuff. One year ago, the party was in fourth place in Parliament.

Last May’s federal election brought historic change. The party broke through with a completely unforeseen 102 seats. (The previous NDP best was 43 seats in 1988.)

The once-mighty Liberals were reduced to a historic low of only 34 seats.

But the NDP celebration didn’t last long. Revered leader Jack Layton died of cancer less than four months later, sparking the leadership race that will be decided today.

In the interim, the NDP has struggled. Leading MPs such as Thomas Mulcair, Peggy Nash and Nathan Cullen were pursuing their leadership ambitions, leaving Nycole Turmel to lead the caucus in the House of Commons — at times shakily.

But none of that seems to have eroded public support, says pollster Frank Graves, president of Ekos Research Associates.

“The so-called floundering of a rudderless, leaderless NDP doesn’t seem to be evident in the polls,” he said.

“That broad disaffection with the government, coupled with a lack of confidence in the Liberals, seems to be leaving the NDP more or less where there are, which is frankly within striking distance of the government.”

Graves said New Democrats have strengthened in British Columbia and are doing “very well” in Atlantic Canada, which means the stunning election success wasn’t the work of Layton alone. It signals that the New Democrats have staying power.

“This wasn’t just Jack-o-mania. That was certainly a major component but there were other things driving this . . . a lot of that was deep frustration with both the Conservatives and Liberals, and in Quebec, the Bloc Québécois,” Graves said.

He said the NDP has taken ownership of an issue making headlines in the United States — income inequality. It promises to become an issue here, as well.

“Once they get an effective leader and begin to capitalize on that new outlook of Canadians on inequality, they could actually do very well,” Graves said.

But to get to 24 Sussex, Graves said the Liberals and New Democrats must take a page from the conservative playbook and somehow combine forces to avoid splitting the centre-left vote.

The Progressive Conservative and Canadian Alliance parties merged in 2003 and succeeded in overcoming the Liberals’ dominance less than three years later to take power.

“Any sure bet for the centre-left to regain power . . . would see those parties co-operating, if not merging, to remove this enormous advantage that the Conservatives have through their unification of the right wing,” Graves said.

“I think the path to success for the NDP and the Liberals and for those who are on the centre-left lies in some form of either explicit cooperation or formal integration.”

Graves doubts the NDP can do it on its own and sees no signals yet of a Liberal turnaround.

“I think the Liberals still delude themselves that they are just a leader away from getting on the other side. I see absolutely nothing in the political arithmetic of the polling,” he said.

Political science professor Henry Jacek agrees co-operation is the route to power but he doesn’t foresee any formal alliance.

“Either side can’t see working with the other right now and they both think they’re going to come out on top . . . I can’t see how you can have any kind of deal before the next election.”.

Jacek predicts a more informal shift in political alliances. In the event the Liberals don’t stage a convincing comeback before the 2015 election, he thinks many party supporters will turn to the NDP.

Jacek, who teaches at McMaster University, said the key battleground for those votes will be Ontario, where New Democrats will have to take seats from the Conservatives and the Liberals to build on their 2011 success.

“If it seeps into the Liberal base in Ontario that the Liberals are not coming back, the lion’s share of that will go over to the NDP. They’ve got to work on those federal Liberals and convince them they can’t stay with a party that is now the third party,” Jacek said.

Within the NDP’s Ottawa’s headquarters — soon to be named in honour of Layton — party staff are already plotting that strategy.

It’s worth remembering that the NDP’s election success on May 2 was no overnight surprise.

 

NorthReport

So now that Mulcair has categorically said there will be no deal-making as far as runniong joint-candidate meetings with the Liberals/Greens, how do we put these Liberal sleaze-balls out of their misery once and for all? 

Because if we don't, they surely will come back to bite us in the ass.

Is the best approach to just ignore the Liberals and focus instead on building our organization in all 338 ridings, and keeping out guns trained directly on the Harper Cons?

dacckon dacckon's picture

Never underestimate the liberals, and how far they are willing to bullshit like the Liberal Democrats in the UK by taking positions they never fulfill and how far to the right they are willing to go.

simonvallee

I'm not so quick to wish death upon the Liberal party. They are useful at attracting the fiscally center-right, socially center vote of the wealthy urban professionals that might otherwise go directly to the Conservatives. I would prefer them to continue to exist to split up the votes of the financial elite and other voter niches that are very resistant to the idea of voting for the NDP.

socialdemocrati...

I think we keep doing what we've always done.

Liberals have spent so much time convincing people to "vote strategically".We shouldn't play that game. If Liberals want to vote for a party that's broken every progressive promise they've made in the past 25 years, that's their prerogative. What we offer is something different: a principled progressive party that will expand pensions, deliver on child care, improve quality of life for seniors, fight climate change, and reform the electoral system that's held this country back for generations.

The only chance for the Liberal party is to admit that they became a center-right coalition the moment they courted all those former PCs and Social Crediters. They should run on Chretien/Martin's record of eliminating the minimum wage, and slashing the social safety net to pay for corporate tax cuts. Maybe they'll be able to hold the Jean Charest / Belinda Stronach types.

As long as the NDP stays committed to working people, they'll eventually see they've been let down by the other parties. It's happening already.

David Young

Let's let Mulcair put the final nails in the coffin of the Bloc Quebecois before the next election first.

Once Canada sees that the NDP has removed the seperatists from the federal scene, they'll look a lot more favourable at the NDP as the only real alternative to stop Stephen 'Der Fuhrer' Harper in Ottawa.

The Liberals will be the next political party to be exiled to the back row of the House of Commons after 2015.

 

NorthReport

Mulcair’s NDP will be different — how different, no one knows
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/opinion/Mulcair+will+different+different+kn...

One potential route to power lies in marginalizing the Liberals, in convincing those who see elections as binary choices and who are determined to defeat the Conservatives, that the larger and official opposition NDP is their only viable choice. Another potential route in light of the Conservatives’ minority, but solid, core of support is to seek common cause with the Liberals before the next election. Mulcair may point which way he would like to go. However, he cannot determine the reaction of NDP and Liberal partisans
.

josh

simonvallee wrote:

I'm not so quick to wish death upon the Liberal party. They are useful at attracting the fiscally center-right, socially center vote of the wealthy urban professionals that might otherwise go directly to the Conservatives. I would prefer them to continue to exist to split up the votes of the financial elite and other voter niches that are very resistant to the idea of voting for the NDP.

That's certainly one school of thought. I would venture, however, that there's a better chance of beating Harper in a one on one, than in a three way.

adma

josh wrote:
simonvallee wrote:
That's certainly one school of thought. I would venture, however, that there's a better chance of beating Harper in a one on one, than in a three way.

In a banal sense, true.  However, it could instead be an opportunity to recalibrate strategy; after all, it's better to carve away at the Con vote than to leave it more or less alone and attempt a pile-on. 

Avoiding another 40-30-20 Con win needn't be a matter of turning it into a 48-43 anti-Con win; after all, the Cons still gained share in such a scenario, indicating that maybe the opposition's ducking the issue...

Ottawa Centre-Left

adma wrote:

Avoiding another 40-30-20 Con win needn't be a matter of turning it into a 48-43 anti-Con win; after all, the Cons still gained share in such a scenario, indicating that maybe the opposition's ducking the issue...

 

I'm eagerly awaiting the next few polls, to see if we get the large 'Mulcair bump', especially in Quebec. A few of the leadership polls had the NDP overtaking the Conservatives in such a scenario, now to see if it materializes.

bekayne

David Young wrote:

Let's let Mulcair put the final nails in the coffin of the Bloc Quebecois before the next election first.

Once Canada sees that the NDP has removed the seperatists from the federal scene, they'll look a lot more favourable at the NDP as the only real alternative to stop Stephen 'Der Fuhrer' Harper in Ottawa.

If there's a majority PQ government in Quebec, how much will the Bloc matter?

Ippurigakko

bekayne wrote:

David Young wrote:

Let's let Mulcair put the final nails in the coffin of the Bloc Quebecois before the next election first.

Once Canada sees that the NDP has removed the seperatists from the federal scene, they'll look a lot more favourable at the NDP as the only real alternative to stop Stephen 'Der Fuhrer' Harper in Ottawa.

If there's a majority PQ government in Quebec, how much will the Bloc matter?

 

I think there will be new parties gaining in Quebec - CAQ / QS, who knows. will see next quebec general elections

mark_alfred

Interesting article on the CBC website entitled Mulcair, Harper allies in plotting Liberals' demise.  Mulcair has said that he feels the Liberals are unreliable and would never work with them again, and instead wants progressives to unite under the NDP banner (similar to how Liberals used to try to sideline the NDP by inviting progressives to unite under the "big red tent").  From the article:

Quote:
But beyond all the partisan rhetoric, Harper and Mulcair are more allies than enemies in their pursuit of one key political goal — the decimation of the federal Liberal party.

Should be interesting.  I think it's a more risky position to take than what either Topp, Nash, or Cullen were advocating (that being differentiating ourselves from Liberals rather than attempting to sideline them.)  But, if Mulcair's successful, I certainly will not be sad to see the Liberals go.  I just hope we don't become a clone of them in terms of policy.

janfromthebruce

ditto Mark - that said, we need to run on PP and thus there would be a "good reason" for progressives to unite to elect new dems. And that is a position that Topp took I know.

quizzical

picked up our local small town community newspaper yesterday to find a letter to the Editor from Bob Rae of all people speaking about how nasty the Conservatives are and he mentioned MP Bob Zimmer. And curiously it was followed by a MP's report from Bob Zimmer who is NOT our MP.

anyone else see a letter to the editor from Bob Rae in their community newspaper?

Brachina

http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/04/13/the-liberals-smartest-party-in-the-un...

If you read the comments sectian several liberals admit to donating towards a fund that is for an ad campaign to defend against Harpers ads, which went puff. The Liberals can make any excuse it wants, but they're money went straight to patronage pork. I mean holy crap on a cracker, they could at least defend thier brand or go on the offensive against Harper if they don't want to defend Bob Ray, instead they look weak and defenceless again.

NorthReport

Actually Trudeau may well be the one to finish them off  Laughing

The ‘horrible’ week that was for the Liberal Party

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/canada-politics/horrible-week-liberal-par...

Debater

That was SO last week, man.  

We're in a new week now, and it's been a good one so far.  The story tomorrow will be how the Liberals had their best result in modern times in Calgary Centre and how the Green Party almost upset the NDP in Victoria.

Meanwhile it turns out that the McGuinty/Trudeau comments were a storm in a teacup that had no effect on the Alberta by-election.

jjuares

Debater wrote:

That was SO last week, man.  

We're in a new week now, and it's been a good one so far.  The story tomorrow will be how the Liberals had their best result in modern times in Calgary Centre and how the Green Party almost upset the NDP in Victoria.

Meanwhile it turns out that the McGuinty/Trudeau comments were a storm in a teacup that had no effect on the Alberta by-election.

Well they remian off the map in two of three ridings tonight. One they showed a slight decline and the other they stayed the same but fell back because the NDP increased its advantage. In Calgary local conditions helped thm as did the pitiful turnout. This may be the only riding where they are even relevant in AB.

 

As for the comments, they will take time to seep into the public consciousness. The NEP is a bigger drag on their support now than ever. That may seem counterituitive but consider that in the 90's they almost won gov. here. Sorry, but the long decline of the natural governiing party will continue although the odd uptick will give Liberals hope, only to see these aspirations cruelly dashed later

Debater

NDP support dropped significantly in VICTORIA tonight, and fell to the bottom in CALGARY CENTRE to the near historical low of 3.8%.  Meanwhile, it only marginally increased in DURHAM, despite having a much stronger candidate than in 2011.

But in any event, this tit for tat is silly.

Why don't we just agree that all the parties had mixed results tonight?  I think that's what most of the objective commentators are going to say tomorrow.

socialdemocrati...

The Liberals, who didn't win anything even in a by-election of historic low turnout, are winners in their own way. Right?

 

NorthReport

That's the problem with electing rich folks. They are usually pigs at the trough and their class is in their ass. How much money do rich people need? Whatever they get it is never enough apparently. He should have been working on House of Commons business doing the job that he was elected to do. What a rip-off!

Trudeau missed House business while earning thousands on speakers circuit

 

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/02/15/trudeau-missed-house-business-while...

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2454

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

NR, how dare you question "Le Dauphin". A thousand lashes with a wet noodle for you!

NorthReport
NorthReport

Does the Liberal party have a future in Canada? NO 

Today's Liberals are now the party of the mushy centre, writes Michael Bliss, the party of bourgeois confusion.

 

http://www.canada.com/news/Does+Liberal+party+have+future+Canada/8134920...

 

Brachina

NorthReport wrote:

That's the problem with electing rich folks. They are usually pigs at the trough and their class is in their ass. How much money do rich people need? Whatever they get it is never enough apparently. He should have been working on House of Commons business doing the job that he was elected to do. What a rip-off!

Trudeau missed House business while earning thousands on speakers circuit

 

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/02/15/trudeau-missed-house-business-while...

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2454

He took 20,000 dollars from literacy for life. So its not just schools and school boards, he's pillaging Charities too.I wonder if the people who donated and thought they were fighting for greater literacy knew that they cash was going to fund Trudeau's playboy lifestyle. Problably not.

That is one Charity I'll never give to.

So the guy skips parliament and other responsiblities to extract money from morons, something he has a knack for.

The more I find out about Trudeau I more I hate him and what he symbolizes.

Jacob Two-Two

Of course you do. He's a privileged arrogant ass with no accomplishments to his credit. But Canadians will come to the same conclusion eventually. 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Brachina wrote:

 So the guy skips parliament and other responsiblities to extract money from morons, something he has a knack for.

Nice way to describe people. I think your comment is nasty and vile and not very progressive. 

janfromthebruce

I did so like this paragraph and the last sentence was funny

What’s left today is a skeleton party, dominated by Liberals bred in the bone, genetic Liberals — Trudeaus, McGuintys, Daveys, Raes. About all that glues the skeleton together these days is dislike of Conservatives. This is mainly useful in masking Liberals’ intense dislike of one another.

So the Rae bros get implanted but so funny the last - the strong dislike of each other - hence the lib wars.

And the hate for Cons is why they want to replace them - not the ideology.

Brachina

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Brachina wrote:

 So the guy skips parliament and other responsiblities to extract money from morons, something he has a knack for.

Nice way to describe people. I think your comment is nasty and vile and not very progressive. 

Its accurate, honest, and truthful.

What nasty, vile, and unprogressive is a millionaire MP pillaging the education system and charities to feather his own nest. And the people who enabled this spoiled rich kid so they could play fanboy to this unqualified con artist should be held to account for abusing thier positions. That straight up honesty, I sorry if that makes you uncomfortable.

mark_alfred

I agree with Brachina on this one.  It's not very smart of the charities or the organizations in question to spend oodles of cash on a speech by J. Trudeau.  Likely their cash could have gone to better use.

janfromthebruce

Brachina wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Brachina wrote:

 So the guy skips parliament and other responsiblities to extract money from morons, something he has a knack for.

Nice way to describe people. I think your comment is nasty and vile and not very progressive. 

Its accurate, honest, and truthful. What nasty, vile, and unprogressive is a millionaire MP pillaging the education system and charities to feather his own nest. And the people who enabled this spoiled rich kid so they could play fanboy to this unqualified con artist should be held to account for abusing thier positions. That straight up honesty, I sorry if that makes you uncomfortable.

Brachina, there would be situations where they didn't really think about this nor realize that as an MP, he shouldn't charge for this. Just saying and to suggest they are "morins" doesn't serve the purpose of helping those to think about this critically.

Brachina

Honestly that money should not be going to guess speakers period. Perhaps Morons was harsh, I'll concede that, but its a major laps in judgement that invovle large sums of money being misspent and I think these people need to be held to account, there in positions of responsiblity. I have seen people stop giving to charity because of stuff like this. And Trudeau's the cause.

I used to oppose Trudeau because it was embarrassing for people to support a man of so little substance, because of his last name, or boxing for goodness sakes. Now I despise the man for his corruption as well.

janfromthebruce

Brachina wrote:
Honestly that money should not be going to guess speakers period. Perhaps Morons was harsh, I'll concede that, but its a major laps in judgement that invovle large sums of money being misspent and I think these people need to be held to account, there in positions of responsiblity. I have seen people stop giving to charity because of stuff like this. And Trudeau's the cause. I used to oppose Trudeau because it was embarrassing for people to support a man of so little substance, because of his last name, or boxing for goodness sakes. Now I despise the man for his corruption as well.

Well it for sure cheapened his brand. Once he becomes leader he'll return to those he all charged money and offer "free" speech - cough because he feels so badly about ripping them off last time, and coming back to use them for photo-ops and media.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Trudeau should not have taken any cash but that is a different issue than charities spending money to make money.   No fundraiser is free and ones where you intend to charge lots per plate for rubber chicken always have overhead including speakers fees.  Unless you have looked at their books to see how much of a return they made on his speech you are just attacking people who are doing fundraising because you don't like their choice of speaker.

Please feel free to attack Trudeau but stop with the gratuitous insults against people who seem to be doing good work because you think they should not spend money to make money. It is not progressive it is a personal insult against those people. I've gone to lots of fundraisers where they paid for speakers. The only question is did the charity make money on their fundraiser.

mark_alfred

Thanks kropotkin1951.  Yes, of course, they were fundraisers.  That makes sense.

janfromthebruce

So school boards and schools would not be included.

So glad kropotkin1951 is on all boards and taking control - and policing everybody's thoughts and ideas.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Yup this place would be far better with only current NDP supporters on it. Thanks for proving once again that NDP supporters on this board can't stand any critic of their ideas no matter how "moronic" they are in their condemnations of potential allies like the people who fund raise for literacy.

I have helped run lots of fund raisers for the NDP and various other organizations and in my experience you have to spend money to make the big bucks. I would not have asked someone like Trudeau to speak at a fund raiser but I know for a fact that the list of good speakers who can fill a room and don't charge a fee is a very, very short list and they get requests by the dozens.

Brachina

Perhaps for fundraising I guess, but charging to speak at a fundraiser still feels wrong to me. I'm will to back off on the originizers although higher standards would be wise for them in the future. But no letting Justin off the hook, the guy should have been in parliment not milking schools and charities. He's corrupt to the core.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

I don't disagree with your dislike of the silver spooned Trudeau and agree that his charging organizations to speak is selfish and displays a distinct lack of character. I wonder how well this profile fits the man.

Quote:

Symptoms of this disorder, as defined by the DSM-IV-TR include:[1]

  • Reacting to criticism with anger, shame, or humiliation
  • Taking advantage of others to reach own goals
  • Exaggerating own importance, achievements, and talents
  • Imagining unrealistic fantasies of success, beauty, power, intelligence, or romance
  • Requiring constant attention and positive reinforcement from others
  • Becoming jealous easily
  • Lacking empathy and disregarding the feelings of others
  • Being obsessed with self
  • Pursuing mainly selfish goals
  • Trouble keeping healthy relationships
  • Becoming easily hurt and rejected
  • Setting goals that are unrealistic
  • Wanting "the best" of everything
  • Appearing unemotional

In addition to these symptoms, the person may also display dominance, arrogance, show superiority, and seek power.[6] The symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder can be similar to the traits of individuals with strong self-esteem and confidence; differentiation occurs when the underlying psychological structures of these traits are considered pathological. Narcissists have such an elevated sense of self-worth that they value themselves as inherently better than others. However, they have a fragile self-esteem and cannot handle criticism, and will often try to compensate for this inner fragility by belittling or disparaging others in an attempt to validate their own self-worth. It is this sadistic tendency that is characteristic of narcissism as opposed to other psychological conditions affecting level of self-worth.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

That description fits Obama as well. These guys are cut from the same cloth.

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