Thomas Mulcair

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Unionist

Merci Ken!

Debater

Brachina wrote:
And no one acknowldges I was right about the Unity Bill baiting Trudeau into making an ass out of himself?

Brachina, you seem to be living in an alternate universe.  It is MULCAIR who was hurt by the 'Unity Bill'!  Not Trudeau.  Mulcair lost an MP over it and has faced a lot of heat, particularly outside Quebec in the English Canadian media.  Have you not been following what has been going on for the past few weeks?  Even the NDP Premiers are staying away from Mulcair, and the public disagrees with him on it.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/mulcairs-plan-to-replace-cl...

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/02/28/michael-den-tandt-ndp-def...

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/westview/mulcair-damaged-by-def...

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Debater, the more you post, the more I become convinced you are desperate to prove you are right. Were you like this as a kid. Do you have issues with insecurity.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Really Arthur? That sure sounds petty to me and I don't get it. He is not convincing anyone around here that the Liberals are progressive or deserve to win so why do you need to silence him.  Are you getting so deaf you need to live in an echo chamber?

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Really Arthur? That sure sounds petty to me and I don't get it. He is not convincing anyone around here that the Liberals are progressive or deserve to win so why do you need to silence him.  Are you getting so deaf you need to live in an echo chamber?

You know what K, for my money, I will start cutting him some slack when he learns to act like a G-d damn adult. Period.

Slumberjack

It's pretty bad when anarchists are encouraging Liberals and NDPers to play nice.

janfromthebruce

Slumberjack wrote:

It's pretty bad when anarchists are encouraging Liberals and NDPers to play nice.

1 +++

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Slumberjack wrote:

It's pretty bad when anarchists are encouraging Liberals and NDPers to play nice.

Laughing

clambake

Hey Kropotkin, what are your thoughts on anarchists engaging in electoral politics? I ask as someone with libertarian socialist leanings that has inner conflit while working for the government.

Apologies in advance for going off topic!

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

Babble is the new hotbed of anarchism? Who knew? Foot in mouth

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

I apologize to all of you, except you know who. Sorry, as I get older I find I am starting hold grudges. I will try to hold off and apologize for side tracking threads if and when I do. I do not mean to. I just do not like having my face ground in it. OK, that is enough. I will try, even with you know who.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

clambake wrote:

Hey Kropotkin, what are your thoughts on anarchists engaging in electoral politics? I ask as someone with libertarian socialist leanings that has inner conflit while working for the government.

Apologies in advance for going off topic!

For years I was of the opinion that even though I didn't believe in our system I would be damned if I would abandon the field and allow the right to run unopposed.  I have since gotten more cynical because the NDP drove my ethical and principled MP out of politics for voting his conscience on an issue of fundamental human rights.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Arthur Cramer wrote:

I apologize to all of you, except you know who. Sorry, as I get older I find I am starting hold grudges. I will try to hold off and apologize for side tracking threads if and when I do. I do not mean to. I just do not like having my face ground in it. OK, that is enough. I will try, even with you know who.

I have the same age related problem some days. The difference is that since this is an NDP board I get slammed for my cynicism about the NDP but you are allowed to vent your anger at the Liberals.

Slumberjack

clambake wrote:
Apologies in advance for going off topic!

Thank you is in order actually.

Slumberjack

kropotkin1951 wrote:
The difference is that since this is an NDP board I get slammed for my cynicism about the NDP but you are allowed to vent your anger at the Liberals.

There's certainly enough evidence to summon one's anger down upon both parties.

Slumberjack

Boom Boom wrote:
Babble is the new hotbed of anarchism? Who knew? Foot in mouth 

I don't know.  So far we've been quite successful in maintaining a front against mass appeal.

Brachina

I've seen plenty of slams against the NDP, both reasonable and not. I don't expect prefection from the NDP, so I'm sure they'll do something else slam worthy at some point. Still if I disagree with an attack on the NDP I'll speak up.

knownothing knownothing's picture

clambake wrote:

Hey Kropotkin, what are your thoughts on anarchists engaging in electoral politics? I ask as someone with libertarian socialist leanings that has inner conflit while working for the government.

Apologies in advance for going off topic!

Only advocate public ownership for services that are needed and do so in a decentralized structure like Canada's. Leave the rest to the market and uphold civil liberties.

Unionist

Brachina wrote:
Still if I disagree with an attack on the NDP I'll speak up.

And I'm sure if you ever agreed with an attack on the NDP, you'd speak up as well.

 

KenS

Dont know about that.

Have to be a massive voltage in that thunderbolt.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

knownothing wrote:

Only advocate public ownership for services that are needed and do so in a decentralized structure like Canada's. Leave the rest to the market and uphold civil liberties.

The market is the root of the evil unless the corporate veil is removed. It shields the individual capitalist from the sins of their alter ego corporations and has resulted in planetary degradation and human misery.  Both the planet and its people are being sacrificed on the altar of the free market.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Slumberjack wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:
The difference is that since this is an NDP board I get slammed for my cynicism about the NDP but you are allowed to vent your anger at the Liberals.

There's certainly enough evidence to summon one's anger down upon both parties.

That is very valid. I posted in another thread that moving the center to the NDP appears to mean becoming Liberals. As my wife often says, who knew.

NorthReport

Tom Mulcair goes to Washington, tells Americans that Harper is ‘playing people for fools’ on environment amid Keystone assessment

In a whirlwind visit to Washington this week, Opposition leader Tom Mulcair is bearing an entirely different message from that brought by the parade of Conservative leaders who recently invaded the U.S. to sell the Keystone XL pipeline.

In meetings with U.S. lawmakers and business executives, Mulcair is telling Americans the Canadian government is “playing people for fools” by claiming that its environmental record is world class and that it cares about climate change.

Mulcair’s message is that the Canadian government’s environmental record is terrible, that it has “gutted” environmental assessments for energy projects and that climate change is not at all among its priorities.

“In the U.S. people know how to read,” he said in an interview. “They know that Canada is the only country that has withdrawn from Kyoto. They know that the Conservatives can’t possibly meet their Copenhagen targets (on greenhouse gas emissions) precisely because of the oilsands. They have to stop playing people for fools.”

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/03/12/tom-mulcair-goes-to-washington-t...

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

Did you Joe Oliver followed by Peter Julian on P&P tonight?  Julian said Mulcair is in Washington to introduce the NDP as Canada's Official Opposition and potentially the next government here.

Which was weird, because I faintly recall that I posted Mulcair's earlier visit to Washington for this pupose some time ago.

NorthReport

Mulcair warns Americans of Chinese energy takeovers in Canada

Federal Opposition leader Tom Mulcair stirred American fears of Chinese intrusion into the North American energy market Wednesday by accusing  the Harper government of negotiating a secret treaty with China that will give that country unfettered access to Canadian oil and gas reserves.

The American government has been concerned about Chinese entry into North America since 2005 when it refused to approve the takeover of energy giant Unocal by the Chinese National Offshore Oil Corporation.

Mulcair indicated in a speech at the Wilson Center’s Canada Institute that Americans should be concerned about China’s growing influence in Canada’s energy sector after Canada last year approved the $15.1-billion CNOOC’s takeover of Calgary-based oilsands giant Nexen Inc.

Because Nexen has U.S. interests, the deal also had to be approved by the Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States. The committee’s approval was given last month.

Mulcair said CNOOC and PetroChina have invested more than $25 billion in the Canadian oil and gas sector. Citing a report by the Conference Board of Canada, he added that by 2020, “China will be Canada’s second-largest investor largely in oil and gas.”

He warned Americans that a treaty called the Canada-China Foreign Investment Promotion and Protection Agreement, which he said has been “negotiated by the federal government in total secrecy,” gives Chinese companies the right to sue the federal government if they don’t get the same access to Canada’s resources as Canadian companies.

“Under the terms of FIPA, these lawsuits would be launched in secret — in front of a binding international tribunal — and outside of the rule of Canadian law,” he said.

“Taken together, FIPA and CNOOC’s takeover of Nexen effectively limit the ability of Canadian governments to independently control our own natural resource policy, while ceding enormous control over our resources to a foreign power.”

---------------

Mulcair is essentially raining on the parade of Tory cabinet ministers and provincial premiers from Alberta and Saskatchewan who have recently visited the U.S. to promote Keystone as a secure, environmentally responsible energy supply.

In his speech, Mulcair accused the Harper government of failing to impose existing environmental regulations to assure that resource development is environmentally sustainable.

Under an NDP government, Canada would impose a policy of sustainable resource development based on the principle that polluters pay the full cost of environmental damage, he said.

The principles of sustainable development will “shape the world community’s global trade relationships more than any other … and those who fail to recognize that reality will fail to thrive,” he said.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/world/Mulcair+warns+Americans+Chinese+e...

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Quote:

Mulcair indicated in a speech at the Wilson Center’s Canada Institute that Americans should be concerned about China’s growing influence in Canada’s energy sector after Canada last year approved the $15.1-billion CNOOC’s takeover of Calgary-based oilsands giant Nexen Inc.

I love this picture of Mulcair pandering to the ethnic vote in BC.

 

socialdemocrati...

I don't love how you took a legitimate complaint about foreign ownership, and quoted it as you segued to Canadian citizens. That's the kind of ugly stuff you see on Conservative message boards. Canadian voters aren't foreign, and the comparison is ugly and discriminatory.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

He was in America, the country that owns most of the oil sands, speaking out against CHINESE ownership not foreign ownership.  I resisted calling it racist because I was being polite.  The fact that he would dress in traditional Chinese costume is right out of the playbook of people like Harry Bloy.

 

Lord Palmerston

I agree with you about going to the US warning against "Chinese ownership", but this "pandering to the ethnic vote" stuff is really distasteful.  

Stockholm

FYI, This did not get any play in English Canada but a couple of weeks ago Leger released a poll on federal politics in Quebec. Not only did they have the NDP firmly in first place, but they asked 1,000 Quebecers who would make a better PM - Tom Mulcair or Justin Trudeau and Mulcair beats Trudeau almost two to one 47% to 29%

http://www.legermarketing.com/admin/upload/publi_pdf/FRCA20130211_2.pdf

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Lord Palmerston wrote:

I agree with you about going to the US warning against "Chinese ownership", but this "pandering to the ethnic vote" stuff is really distasteful.  

I have walked in that very parade with NDP MP's from BC and helped them hand out red envelopes. Not a single one of them ever dressed up like Mulcair.  Celebrating Chinese New Year is great, dressing in costume is just wrong and used to be the purview of BC Liberal MLA's.  That is why I called it pandering because it is an insincere gesture and the BC NDP has been using that term in reference to the BC Liberals.

ETA  Here is a photo link of three MLA's celebrating Chinese New Year. See if you can pick out the two BC Liberals.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/flungingpictures/2266700606/lightbox/

Fidel

kropotkin1951 wrote:
Celebrating Chinese New Year is great, dressing in costume is just wrong and used to be the purview of BC Liberal MLA's.  That is why I called it pandering because it is an insincere gesture and the BC NDP has been using that term in reference to the BC Liberals.

Except that the federal Liberals have typically stopped pandering to ethnic minorities after they were elected to federal power. 

The Liberals didn't pander when drafting up the Chinese Immigration/Exclusion Act in 1923. 

And Liberals didn't pander to ethnic minorities when leaving hundreds of thousands of unprocessed immigration visas after their most recent dynastic stranglehold on power in Ottawa. 

I wouldn't vote Liberal and especially not if I was ethnic Chinese.

Mulcair looks good in that shirt. It should bring good luck. Wink

nicky

Another interesting feature of the Leger poll mentioned above by Stockholm is that Bloq voters prefer Mulcair over Trudeau by 52% to 19% .

I think the NDP stands to mine a great number of Bloq supporters in the next election and maintain its dominace in Quebec, perhaps even gaining seats.

Stockholm

PS, Jack Layton used to wear Chinese style outfits to Chinese New Years events all the time...I don't recall anyone having a problem with that

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Jack Layton married into the community and spoke some Cantonese.  Respecting peoples culture is not the same as appropriating it.  Mulcair is an outsider trying to score cheap political points by dressing up as the "other."  Like I said I can hardly wait for him to go to a FN's event in full powwow regalia.

KenS

Where you do it means everything.

What is not acceptable behaviour among FN, really has nothing to do with what is acceptable among ethinic Chinese, or anyone else for that matter.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Tom is getting advice from people like you and Stockholm.  The people of Chinese descent on my NDP executive thought it was tacky politics.  I take my lead from them not advisers from Ottawa and NS. The Chinese business community in this part of the world has deep ties in China itself and I know many people who regularly fly in and out of China for business.  Wearing a costume one day and telling the world that Canada prefers American capitalists to Chinese capitalists is two faced racist bullshit. 

As well this trip to Washington highlights that there is less and less difference between the NDP and the Liberals.  The Liberals have always been the party that promoted economic integration into the continental market and have had a "special" relationship with Democrats for decades.  Welcome to the new party, the same as the old.

6079_Smith_W

kropotkin1951 wrote:

The Chinese business community in this part of the world has deep ties in China itself and I know many people who regularly fly in and out of China for business. 

Though as was said above, equating Canadian residents and their cultures with other countries and their policies can get kind of messy. In the first place, not everyone might share the views of those on your executive. Secondly, if a politician were to advocate a critical line toward China (and I suspect Mulcair was refering to the nation, not the culture) and give the cold shoulder to the Chinese Canadian community (including Taiwanese, no?), what would that say? Some might think it consistent. I think it would be something else entirely.

 

 

Fidel

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Jack Layton married into the community and spoke some Cantonese.  Respecting peoples culture is not the same as appropriating it.  Mulcair is an outsider trying to score cheap political points by dressing up as the "other."  Like I said I can hardly wait for him to go to a FN's event in full powwow regalia.

So Tom should stick to his white caucasian roots and stop trying to appeal to ethnic minorities and new Canadians, is that what you're trying to tell us? 

I think that if the two old line party leaders don't have the guts to do the same because their political record in power for mistreatment of immigrants and ethnic minorities stinks as bad as it does, then Liberals and Tories should definitely spare Chinese and other Canadians their hypocritical baby kissing and other attempts to familiarize themselves with minorities whose parents and grandparents were treated so poorly by federal Liberal and Tory governments past and present.

But the NDP has no similar infamous record in federal power and so should definitely try to score FPTP votes in this way. Why? Because they can! Wink

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Fidel wrote:

So Tom should stick to his white caucasian roots and stop trying to appeal to ethnic minorities and new Canadians, is that what you're trying to tell us? 

Nope that is not what I am saying.

Laughing

Unionist

1. "White Caucasian" is redundant, no?

2. I find it spiritually satisfying how once the white smoke rises, the new Holy Father is transformed from abrasive to infallible.

 

Fidel

Unionist wrote:

1. "White Caucasian" is redundant, no?

2. I find it spiritually satisfying how once the white smoke rises, the new Holy Father is transformed from abrasive to infallible.

 

1. Yes, it is.

2. If you are trying to say that because two old line parties are notorious for their mistreatment of minorities, so, too, shall the NDP do the same in federal power, then your argument would be a fallaceous one.

Doug

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Jack Layton married into the community and spoke some Cantonese.  Respecting peoples culture is not the same as appropriating it.  Mulcair is an outsider trying to score cheap political points by dressing up as the "other."  Like I said I can hardly wait for him to go to a FN's event in full powwow regalia.

Are you sure that someone from the community didn't give him the outfit? In that case, I'd think it would be impolite not to wear it.

Fidel

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Fidel wrote:

So Tom should stick to his white caucasian roots and stop trying to appeal to ethnic minorities and new Canadians, is that what you're trying to tell us? 

Nope that is not what I am saying.

Laughing

So, then, what is it you're trying to tell us about Mulcair? Are white politicians supposed to dress like white people 24/7 to suit you?

What kind of footwear is appropriate in your opinion? We want to know.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Fidel you make a really lousy Inquisitor. I refuse to answer your ridiculous questions so I guess you'll just have to burn me at the stake.

You are also wrong on the answer to question one above.  It is not redundant because the stupid term Caucasian can include many people from India and the Middle East.   Many of whom are not as white in skin pigmentation as most of the people on this board.

I don't believe the Liberals when they run from the centre left because I know they will govern from the centre right but you would have me believe that the NDP will run from the centre and govern from the left.  I don't have that much faith in a retread Liberal politician who served as a Minister in a neo-con government like the one the Liberals have saddled us with in BC for over a decade. He likely will prove more centrist than the others but frankly that is not good enough for me.  If it was I would have joined the Liberals all those decades ago instead of working to promote a socialist discourse in Canadian politics.

Slumberjack

Unionist wrote:
 I find it spiritually satisfying how once the white smoke rises, the new Holy Father is transformed from abrasive to infallible. 

Works for me, but I wouldn't describe it as infallible....enhanced perception certainly.

Stockholm

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Jack Layton married into the community and spoke some Cantonese.  Respecting peoples culture is not the same as appropriating it.  Mulcair is an outsider trying to score cheap political points by dressing up as the "other."  Like I said I can hardly wait for him to go to a FN's event in full powwow regalia.

I confess...I CONFESS! I am a Caucuasian Canadian and do not have a drop of Chinese blood nor have i married into a Chinese family, AND YET I happen to have a couple of Chinese style jackets I have bought in my travels to the far East and I typically wear them to Chinese themed events such as Chinese New Year's banquets or parties. I now hang my head in shame and await my punishment. 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Are you doing it for political advantage? If not then I have no problem with your dress code.

Stockholm

I take the view that in life "when in Rome do as the Romans do"...of course I also believe in a variation on that "when in Rome do as many Romans as you can!!" :-)Cool

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Stockholm this thread is not about the Vatican and your exploits there.

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