What's the role of the federal NDP in Quebec if sovereignty remains a hot issue?

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Brachina

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/news/blog.html?b=news.nationalpost.com/...

 

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/news/blog.html?b=fullcomment.nationalpo...

 Anything could still happen, especially with the debate thursday, but my gut says Marios blew it, and the Liberals will get back in. 

 

 How that plays out federally is that all the talk about the PQ Majority damaging the NDP disappears, the Sovy movement goes into souls searching and the Bloc folds as a waste of time and money. With half thier vote refusing to particapate in federal elections and the other half voting NDP.

Pogo Pogo's picture

I think QS is a marvelous experiment and I wish it all the best.   My preferred scenario would be for it to gain enough success to close doors on rivals at its end of the spectrum.  Whether it will or not is the question of the election for me.

Brachina

Pogo wrote:

I think QS is a marvelous experiment and I wish it all the best.   My preferred scenario would be for it to gain enough success to close doors on rivals at its end of the spectrum.  Whether it will or not is the question of the election for me.

 

 Agreed, this is a major test to see if QS can be competitive.

Brachina

 Btw did Marios keep her promise to create a Bank of Quebec.

Winston

What a daft statement. The sky didn't fall when the Czech republic left Czechoslovakia. I doubt anyone would claim that India was better off when it was British. While the outright independence of Québec is not my preference, I have no reason to believe that it would result in calamity, economic, military or otherwise.

Brachina wrote:

 I use Seperatist because its easier to spell. That being said, it completely accurate, lets not play games here, they want seperate from Canada, I understand the fairy tale of what a Seperate Quebec would be like, and its just that a feel good Fairy Tale that levels out any pains, challenges, difficulties, emotional termoil, suffering, and Chaos that would result.

Winston

Brachina wrote:

 Anything could still happen, especially with the debate thursday, but my gut says Marios blew it, and the Liberals will get back in. 

My gut says the Liberals win the popular vote by getting massive supermajorities in their West Island strongholds and, with the QS and CAQ vote so anemic, the PQ wins a majority of the seats.

 

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..i deleted my post with apologies. it was a impulse on my part to comment in this thread.

Brachina

 This election has been fascinating, abit sickening at times as well.

 Just think Marios was pretty much headed for a Majority when a critical decision change the fate of this election. PKP.

 It back fired on her and instead of being Premier her career will likely soon be over if she can't recover in tomorrows debate. 

 One choose, one decision changes the fate of a whole province.

Or at least it appears it will, nothing is certain until after E-Day.

 And that is why people who are assuming Justin will be the next Prime Minister and that are certain that  the NDP are going back to third or fourth place and fools. Because in politics anything can happen, a moment, a single choice that seems harmless enough can change the world, where the butterfly effect isn't just a theory, its the nature of the business.

 And that is why I find politics exciting and why I never give up hope that a better world is possible and can happen, dispite life's disappointments.

Brachina

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/news/blog.html?b=fullcomment.nationalpo...

 

 The PQ is throwing Muslim students under the bus in the hopes of changing the channel. Its disgusting. Is there any low Marios will not drop to in order to win power.

 

 I hope David and Colliourd rip Marios apart in todays debates.

lagatta

There can be good reasons for a burkha ban (not a ban on hijab) in an educational institution. These have been banned in some institutions in Muslim countries - and I don't mean Tunisia or Turkey that used to enforce a hijab ban - for the simple reason that they can be used to cheat at exams. And they have been used in this way.

And please, I'm not defending Marois, but her name is Marois, not Marios. The pronunciation would be entirely different.

I really don't think this particular point is "throwing Muslim students under the bus". Alas, one can find far more egregious cases of xenophobia and a narrow-minded attitude among Charter supporters.

The National Pest also features Barbara Kay railing against PQ bigotry and "tribalism" - tribalism uttered here by a fanatical rightwing Zionist. Takes one to know one, I guess...

Unionist

I thought this thread was supposed to be about the NDP? Actually, looking at the thread title, I don't think it's about anything real at all (sorry DaveW, no clue why you opened this).

 

DaveW

I opened it because the role of the FEDERAL NDP, headed by Mulcair, a party which might have to make policy decisions regarding a potential referendum and political decisions about how it stands (Clarity etc.), is important; it is in the National Politics forum.

those considerations do not belong in the discussion thread on the PROVINCIAL election campaign in a QC thread, featuring its parties, its debates, its voters and issues.

Two separate things.

If posters hijack the thread to talk about anything and everything, that is thread management, and an issue for mods eventually.

Brachina

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/mulroney-castigated-trudeau-o...

 

 The idea of the Liberals as Champions of national unity is such a bad joke. The consquences of the Trudeau selfish disgusting actions have been felt tbroughout Canada ever since.

Unionist

Brachina wrote:

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/mulroney-castigated-trudeau-o...

 

 The idea of the Liberals as Champions of national unity is such a bad joke. The consquences of the Trudeau selfish disgusting actions have been felt tbroughout Canada ever since.

Ah, thank goodness we're back to the thread topic of the NDP!

 

Brachina

 The NDP will have to deal with Trudeau attacking the NDP on federalism while acting like he's captain Canada. Its bullshit and we need to be ready with the truth that the Federal Liberals have done more damage to national unity then the PQ or Bloc.

Aristotleded24

Brachina wrote:
http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/mulroney-castigated-trudeau-o...

 

 The idea of the Liberals as Champions of national unity is such a bad joke. The consquences of the Trudeau selfish disgusting actions have been felt tbroughout Canada ever since.

Why does anybody care what Mulroney thinks about anything? He was the one who could not secure agreement on Meech Lake because he was an ineffective leader, not because the federal Liberals were trying to sabotage the deal. With or without Clyde Wells, I can assure you that Elijah Harper would have held out on his fillibuster, and the agreement would still have died.

Stockholm

I don't want to get into a long discussion about Meech Lake but that is not true. it took three long years for Meech to fail. At first everything was hunky-dorey and all ten premiers agreed to it - as did the NDP under Broadbent and the opposition Liberals under Turner were divided but grudgingly supportive...then Trudeau shot his mouth off at "La maison Egg Roll" in Montreal and that led to Frank McKenna stalling a vote in NB for over a year by which time Clyde Wells became premier and then Sharon Carstairs won 20 seats in the 1988 Manitoba election on an explicitly Trudeau-inspired anti-Meech platform...then things started to fall apart. Elijah Harper only had the power to kill Meech because it took until one day before the deadline for the accord to pass for the Manitoba government to finally be willing to bring it to a vote an d it needed unanimous consent to be voted on that very day - it it had been brought to a vote a week or more earlier Harper could have delayed the vote by a few days but never have stopped it altogether.

DaveW

unanimity is a damned high hurdle to clear, it always worried me

6079_Smith_W

*

Brachina

http://crystalgaze2.blogspot.ca/2014/03/stealing-democracy-part-xi-quebe...

 When the fuck did this country start turning into a banana republic?

 

 

Brachina
KenS

You didnt take the hint that talking about political affairs in Quebec is NOT what this thread is about.

And that is not only thread drift- which happens all the time. Your type of continual stoking of how bad the PQ is.... EXACTLY what the NDP does not need.

Do you need an explanation why? [Which I guess is relevant to the topic, given how sadly regressive a good deal of the NDP membership is when it comes to Quebec.]

Brachina

 If that's what you think my point was you missed it entirely. My critism wasn't confined to the PQ, the election official did not to my knowledge have any connection to the PQ and was in fact in violation of the rules as set out by the PQ. And this sort of violation or misunderstanding in not confined to Quebec either. But in fact things are going to get worse with Harper's unfair elections bill, far worse.

Unionist

Brachina wrote:

 If that's what you think my point was you missed it entirely. My critism wasn't confined to the PQ, the election official did not to my knowledge have any connection to the PQ and was in fact in violation of the rules as set out by the PQ. And this sort of violation or misunderstanding in not confined to Quebec either. But in fact things are going to get worse with Harper's unfair elections bill, far worse.

Ah - ok - so that's how your post fits with the thread title, "role of federal NDP if QC sovereignty issue remains hot". Harper's unfair elections act, which even though it has no application to a Québec election, will surely have an indirect chilling effect on voter registration... and by defeating this bill (even though Harper has a majority), the NDP will facilitate more open elections in Québec, which will ultimately cool down the QC sovereignty issue even if it remains hot!

Amirite? Hmmm?

 

KenS

Brachina wrote:

My critism wasn't confined to the PQ, the election official did not to my knowledge have any connection to the PQ and was in fact in violation of the rules as set out by the PQ.

Of course the Quebec elections official whose behaviour is being criticised in the blog, is not the PQ itself. Did you somehow miss that the blog poster- and the rest of us for that matter- understood that IF elections officials are doing any kind of systematic harrassing of anglophone students not from Quebec originally- a good part of the blame for that would lie in the PQ stoking and posturing.

And if you missed that connection... and are saying now that your point was all about voter harrasment everywhere.... it's just some kind of coincidence you posted that in a thread about how we approach sovereignty?  ??

Brachina

 I think the PQ is guilty of encouraging this behavoir, but I don't think they're unique in this, nor are they the worst offenders of voter suppression, Harper do a masterful job of it in 2011, and Marois has her work cut out for her if she wishes to catch up with Harper.

 

 Then there is Brad Wall who is also guilty of this. I would not be surprised if other rightwingers take up this idea.

 

 

 I will say leftwingers don't seem to behave like this, the NDP and QS do not seem to act like this, this is the byproduct of rightwing entitlement that the PQ, Tories, and some Liberals seem to have. They have a contempt cor democracy because in thier hearts they believe only the Elites, both the rich and thier advisors should really run things, not the people.

 

Brachina

 What are the implications for the federal NDP if the PQ come in third or even close to coming in third?

 

 Alot of pundits talked about how bad a PQ majority would have been for the NDP, I wonder if any of those same pundits will talk about how wonderful the PQ coming in third or a really bad second will be good for the NDP and Tom.

 Personally I think this put the NDP in a great position, it will be hard to accuse the NDP in the ROC of helping Soveriegntists by creating an QNDP and the stability will give the NDP time to build one.

 On a more direct level the pressure to dissolve the Bloc will increase and a large chunk of those votes will go NDP with others just staying home.

 Also we won't have to deal with that obnoxious asshole Trudeau pretending to be Captain Canada while rubbing his hands with glee that he has the PQ to act as a foil against. The Federal Liberals most be devasted at losing thier boogy woman.

 

 Lastly between a rightwing PLQ government and a right wing CAQ opposition Quebecers will be thirsty for a left wing alternative and fed up with the right. (Side note when the fuck did Quebec turn into Alberta?).

cco

Funnily enough, I remember it being right around the time Mulcair was in cabinet.

Brachina

No its a more recent development. The PQ was still pretending to lean left, and the LPQ still had a left wing (which when the QNDP happens it won't), and btw nice cheap shot at Mulcair.

 There is a huge gapping hole in Quebec for the NDP to fill, the opportunity is huge. Quebec dippers, but have to grasp it in thier hands.

Brachina

 Side note there is one PQ policy I can sort of support after some thought and that is Quebec being able to pick some to represent Quebec's interests on the Bank of Canada's board, but with the provision only if Quebec stays in Canada, and that other Provinces and territories get represention too and a representive. Provinces and municplablities should have access to the benifits of the BOC including borrowing and quantative easing like Banks.

KenS

posted March 18 in this thread:

KenS wrote:

Sovereignty is back on the table again.

That doesn't make it a hot issue.

In fact, it may drop back to the background in a heartbeat.

I seem to have been wrong. Sovereignty IS a hot issue. Hot enough to burn the PQ.

 

KenS

That would have no appeal to anyone. Except you, for reasons unknown.

Do you think this would appeal to anyone?

It had a purpose if an independent Quebec were to be using the Canadian dollar. For a province..... ?

Edited to add: I missed the last part of what you said. Do you go out of your way to rub peoples noses in "Quebec is just another province. They can have anything that every other province gets, and no status that Quebec would be the only province to have. [I dont hear the words special status. Or, I hear them, but they are just supposed to be symbolic.]

 

cco

Just to prepare us all for Monday:

Sovereignty's dead! It's definitely deader than it was in 1960, 1970, 1980, 1985, 2003, 2007, or 2011. Everyone in Canada can return to your regularly scheduled Harper.

KenS

Yes, I liked my little joke or pun...

but I had misgivings of appealing to the folks who are delusional about Quebec "seeing the light," or whatever it is.

Thumbing their nose at Quebec, and sad thing is half the time not even realizing it.

Sigh.

By the way, one of the forms of that is "Quebec can do what it wants, I dont care, I'm tired of this, etc." 

Ever thought about what would happen to the "Rest of Canada"?

There would certainly still be a country called Canada. and we still it's citizens.

But the 'details' of confederation, how it works, would be thrown up in the air.... up for grabs what it would end up like. 

Make the Right and corporate power happy. And sadly, the overwhelming majority of Albertans.

 

Unionist

KenS wrote:

but I had misgivings of appealing to the folks who are delusional about Quebec "seeing the light," or whatever it is.

Aw, don't be so hasty, Ken.

I never knew there was a chance of Québec getting a seat on the Bank of Canada.

I'd personally be prepared to trade the Sherbrooke Declaration, the recognition of Québec as a nation by the House of Commons, Bill 101, consider signing off on the Constitution, and maybe a side deal on Churchill Falls...

This could be huge!

 

cco

KenS wrote:

I do not wish sovereignists well. Never do.

[Though I would if, and after, they made the leap.]

But I more than respect where it comes from.

But the PQ, that's different. The pending failure comes to a most deserving bunch.

Unfortunately, it comes at the expense of the success of a spectacularly undeserving bunch.

Edited to include the post that got edited away while I was typing. (And then edited back. Computers are hard.)

KenS

True.

 

KenS

[any more scrambling I can do?]

KenS

Huge. Yes.

His proposal was more than a seat. It's every province getting the powers of a central bank.

Way cool.

We'd have so much fun.

KenS

probably

 

KenS

Getting back to the thread topic, more or less...

Next up for the NDP's wish list:

Justin of Hubris embraces Couillard.

 

KenS

Dances With Harper Couillard- that is next year.

 

No problem.

Justin will have another Big Idea by then.

 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

KenS wrote:

Dances With Harper Couillard- that is next year.

 

No problem.

Justin will have another Big Idea by then.

 

Or at least another hairstyle.  
I'm thinking he'll go with dreads. 

Krago

Here's an interesting graphic from the recent EKOS poll.

 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

It's insane that the CAQ gets support from federal NDP supporters.  Why the hell would they vote for a party that is opposed to everything they stand for?  They don't even have "but we're federalist" as an excuse...since the Caquistes are ambiguous on that issue.

cco

Being "ambiguous" by promising "no referendum" is essentially being federalist. Of course, the PQ is also effectively federalist in this election.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

The question of a referendum is NOT more important than every other issue, for God's sakes.

Why obsess about a referendum to the exclusion of everything else?

cco

Because it works. One side will always vote for you to stop a referendum, no matter what else you do. The other side won't be drawn specifically to vote for a referendum, so it doesn't hurt you to bring it up. It can only help. I've lived here since I was 17 and in every campaign the Liberals have hammered "no referendum, no referendum, no referendum". It's all they have.

Brachina

 I going to guess that the NDP/CAQ voters are antiestablishment populists fed up with corruption. 

What I find far more strange is the 3% of QS voters that vote Harper federally?!? WTF?!?

 

I will also note that this graph does not cover NDP voter who will choose not to vote in this provincial election, but will vote NDP federally.

Brachina

 For the record I believe the NDP is higher in support, but that the Quebec election is squing things in favour oc the BQ and fed libs.

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