Why ARE Green Party supporters so unquestioningly loyal to their leaders?

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Interested Observer Interested Observer's picture

pcml wrote:

elley may must be gone before the Greens ever get any help from us this next time

And you can pretend I am who ever you like it changes nothing as our group has its own internal boards

 

 

You might want to refrain from calling her "elley may" then Shavluk, as that is your signature name for her. Wink

Your desire to show her "as garbage," is both telling and offensive. I would urge you to remove that from your post. 

 

Lens Solution wrote:
May is a spolier - she shouldn't even be running in Saanich - Gulf Islands. [...] The reason she is a spoiler is because wherever she shows up it prevents parties like the NDP from winning the seat.

In Central Nova, the election before last was the ndps best shot at the riding and came second with a star candidate. That candidate was no longer running again when May ran and came second herself. The ndp does not own the votes of progressive swing voters anymore than the liberals or the greens. It is upto the voters to decide who are deserving of their vote, and the ndp and liberals have already had their shots trying to defeat Lunn and failed the past two times. If voters then try to defeat him by voting green, that is their prerogative. There is no evidence to suggest that the ndp could win either seat, so your point is moot. On the other hand, the swing whenever May runs in a riding is quite large, and the base voter support indicates that she would have a decent chance. 

2dawall

Uh what does blather about biomass mean?

The failure here is that the Green Party and its leader did not already address the energy issue earlier, after the BP blowout, after the Tunisian uprising. The GPC should have been front and centre on this but instead they are wasting money and resources for an advertising campaign about a 'more civil' politics. What a complete misdirection!

Our problems with energy are social/political in nature, not purely technical.

 

http://www.isreview.org/issues/64/feat-hothouse2.shtml

Lens Solution

Interested Observer wrote:

 

Lens Solution wrote:
May is a spolier - she shouldn't even be running in Saanich - Gulf Islands. [...] The reason she is a spoiler is because wherever she shows up it prevents parties like the NDP from winning the seat.

In Central Nova, the election before last was the ndps best shot at the riding and came second with a star candidate. That candidate was no longer running again when May ran and came second herself. The ndp does not own the votes of progressive swing voters anymore than the liberals or the greens. It is upto the voters to decide who are deserving of their vote, and the ndp and liberals have already had their shots trying to defeat Lunn and failed the past two times. If voters then try to defeat him by voting green, that is their prerogative. There is no evidence to suggest that the ndp could win either seat, so your point is moot. On the other hand, the swing whenever May runs in a riding is quite large, and the base voter support indicates that she would have a decent chance. 

I'm not saying that any particular party is owed the votes of the people in a riding.  I am saying that Elizabeth May does not have a connection to the riding or even the province where she is running this time.  A candidate is supposed to have lived in a riding, or at least the province, for several years before they run there.  And it is almost unprecedented to run in so many different ridings and provinces across the country.  People have the right to challenge her on that issue.

JKR

May's situation is unlike other candidates. She's the leader of a party that was supported by 1 million people and didn't come close to winning a seat. The Greens could double their vote and still fail to win a seat if their vote continues to be evenly spread out. Under FPTP, they have to concentrate on a couple of seats to get a toehold within the process.

May and the Greens might be best served explaining this FPTP conundrum to the voters in SGI. They could tell voters in SGI that eventhough almost 1 million Canadians vote for the Greens they have no representation at all in Parliament. They could add that it would be good for all of Canada if the leader of a pro-environmental party that has the votes of 1 million Canadians had a seat in Parliament to express a large body of opinion that should be heard, especially after the catastrophe in Japan.

pcml

@Interested Observer

Sorry but thats just a well known way of saying it and its also  from the Beverly Hill Billies
And yes I use it on purpose and yes as I said I am familer with Mr Shavluk
Its no secret
I and others will  be working hard to see our common goals completed but all of us are individuals just  joined by a common cause

My style is a problem I take it?
Its funny that it always come down to attacks about some ones writting eh?

And I have heard much worse names for other so called political leaders here
And to further confuse you I had just read this link

http://saskboy.wordpress.com/2011/02/23/conservatives-feeling-green-heat-in-sgi/comment-page-1/

Even hard core Green members are now waking up
How about I promise not to refer to Mr shavluk and you maybe do the same?

Now that we know what power that name seems to have over some here needlessly yes?

I am here simply because of the thread and because politics is very important  and not here to be belittled and labled no matter who I remind some of.

Shavluk is no ax murderer
Far from it
In fact to some of us he has done a lot
My opinion is just that
Thank you

Brian White

I checked  and Adriane Carr is still a member and is going to run somewhere in BC.  This is galling for me because she blew electoral reform in BC.

She personally made the difference.  Traitors to green values should not be candidates. 

As leader, I guess it is fine for Carr to run in Saanich. But I do not think she will do as well as the last green to run there. Briony Penn (who ran as a liberal and lost because of dirty tricks from the conservative campaign and gullible ndp voters who voted for a withdrawn candidate).

Penn and Lewis (who ran as a green years earlier) are probably at least as well known in sgi as Carr and Penn is probably seen as greener too.

I think the Chretien vote splitting measure, money for partys based on votes garnered (as well as seats for votes for the larger partys), will mean that the greens are here to stay.  Harper would actually lose if the money for partys based on votes garnered was ended, because the greens would quickly run out of cash and without cash they would have no campaign.  If the party subsidy was ended, the greens would still have strong local candidates in sgi, Carr could be kicked out and May would stay on the other side of Canada and the spoiler candidates (necessary to get the cash) would end in many ridings.  I think that the spoiler candidates are worthwhile because they give someone to vote for for disaffected people who would not othewise turn up at the polls. Hopefully the ndp will have a strategy to convert spoilers voters at the next  election?  Something like, "give me your vote, and if I get elected, I will donate x amount to the green party after the election".

Because honestly, voting green is a catch 22 unless new thinking comes along.

Lens Solution

Brian White wrote:

I checked  and Adriane Carr is still a member and is going to run somewhere in BC.  This is galling for me because she blew electoral reform in BC.

She's running in Vancouver Centre again.

KenS

Of course she is running. She doesnt rival May's insane level of draw on party coffers... but she is pretty far up there by any other measure.

Not to mention being the succesor in waiting. Not that she is just waiting. Such lovely prospects.

Lens Solution

Adrianne Carr performed reasonably well for a Green candidate in the last election and managed to get 18% of the vote in Vancouver Centre, but she still finished 4th.

Will she be able to move up this time?

KenS

Right. Carr placed 4th, and might be in a position to do better this time.

Not bad for someone the Greens put over $100,000 per year into supporting.

And good enough to make her the favourite for succeeding May when she falls.

Brian White

KenS wrote:

Right. Carr placed 4th, and might be in a position to do better this time.

Not bad for someone the Greens put over $100,000 per year into supporting.

And good enough to make her the favourite for succeeding May when she falls.

I doubt that they would let her back but stranger things have happened. When she became head of the provincial greens many people left.

She is on a bit of an ego trip, like May, I guess. (Though in fairness, May has some big achievements in the past and Carr has none).

I didn't know they were sinking $100 000 into her vanity candidature.   There will probably be $1000 left for the campaigns in the rest of BC.

KenS

That is $100K per year they "invest" in Carr, outside of elections.

Brian White

Pretty disgusting. I am glad I am not a gp member. Carr has not been heard of provincially since she left (would have been forced out) the provincial gp leadership. 

Stockholm

Lens Solution wrote:

Adrianne Carr performed reasonably well for a Green candidate in the last election and managed to get 18% of the vote in Vancouver Centre, but she still finished 4th.

Will she be able to move up this time?

I think that was her high water mark and she will be lucky to get over 10% and save her deposit this time around...still waiting to see who the NDP runs in can Centre. Will Byers try again?

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

I predict that May will lose and that the main reason will be that voters in the riding will have no desire to send a political operative back to her old stomping grounds in the capital.  They will vote for people who they think will represent their riding not the three million voters in other parts of the country.  That is the nature of our representative democracy system. Why should the people of Saanich elect an MP to represent the party first and all its country wide voters?  At the end of the day the voter in the booth will chose someone who they think might represent their riding even if they like the Green message.  What astounds me is how a party that has put so much energy into grass roots forms of democracy doesn't see that what May is doing is an insult to the LOCAL community.  

D V

Re SGI, if there is an election soon & things keep going as badly as they are in Japan now, May would do well to remind electors about who was the centre of the Linda Keen affair -- her opponent Lunn, of course -- and what they were so nonchalant about, possibility (even "remote") of failed safety pumping, very much at the heart of the disaster in Japan now. Greens were the only ones who questioned the strange goings on -- NDP easily capitulated in the end as well -- in the outrageous emergency recall of Parl. I did some blogging on it back then for GPC (eg full page at http://greenparty.ca/node/3644), which was used to differentiate the GPC from the rest, a paradigmaticc example of why such a party is needed, if only it could conduct itself better.

contrarianna

Snert wrote:

One might expect that if a nuclear accident were to occupy the electorate's imagination then all of the parties would have a response to it, and that that response would include homilies about safety and testing and exploring new ways and all of that.  Why would the Cons or the Libs or the NDP sit that one out?

 

Well, of the parties you mention, the Con's Lunn, I suspect  would like nothing better to sit that one out

Quote:
Chalk River reactor shutdown

Lunn fired Linda Keen, the head of the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission, on January 15, 2008. Keen, who was due to appear before a parliamentary committee the next day, had ordered a shutdown of the NRU reactor at Chalk River, Ontario, which is operated by Atomic Energy of Canada Limited, in November, 2007, over AECL's failure to perform safety upgrades.

Appearing before a parliamentary committee January 16, 2008 Lunn refused to cite one example of what Linda Keen had done wrong in her job, only that she had lost the confidence of the government.


wikipedia

contrarianna

Northern Shoveler wrote:

I predict that May will lose and that the main reason will be that voters in the riding will have no desire to send a political operative back to her old stomping grounds in the capital.  They will vote for people who they think will represent their riding not the three million voters in other parts of the country.  That is the nature of our representative democracy system. Why should the people of Saanich elect an MP to represent the party first and all its country wide voters?  At the end of the day the voter in the booth will chose someone who they think might represent their riding even if they like the Green message.  What astounds me is how a party that has put so much energy into grass roots forms of democracy doesn't see that what May is doing is an insult to the LOCAL community.  

Not Likely. May will likely lose to Gary Lunn with the Liberals and NDP 3rd and 4rth--not necessarily in that order.

You actually believe the slight plurality that Lunn might win by will be because because people here believe he is attentive to local issues?

People will mainly vote for him because they are living the Reform-Con dream supplied to them by the media.

And from the amount of time NDP boosters spend slagging May, I'd suspect many would prefer Lunn to win than have another elected also-ran party to vie for crumbs from the right-wing media.

 

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

Sorry for stating an opinion.  I ACTUALLY thought I was allowed to have one.  Boy am I ever naive.  Carry on explaining your incredible insight into all things political.  I kneel at the feet of your superiority.   Cool   

contrarianna

Northern Shoveler wrote:

Sorry for stating an opinion.  I ACTUALLY thought I was allowed to have one.  Boy am I ever naive.  Carry on explaining your incredible insight into all things political.  I kneel at the feet of your superiority.   Cool   

And I'm sorry I didn't realize I was being disrespectful simply by disagreeing with you, without irony or abuse.

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

I actually think the use of the term "you actually believe" is disrespectful.  Is incredulity a type of irony or sarcasm?  I can't believe you have the believes you have how could any reasonable person hold such believes is the obvious sub text to your innocent language.  In the meantime I do believe people in my province are very aware about sending politicians to Ottawa with little or no connection to their community and I do believe that it will be a factor in many peoples minds.  Whether you find that incredible or not.

West Coast Greeny

I dunno. The Greens raised and spent $30,000 in my riding last election. We only have so much money. Why spend it on candidates struggling to break 10%, and not on the Carrs, Mays and Nagys (who spent $70,000. And yes, I know Nagy isn't running...).

West Coast Greeny

I think at worst May is running second. There's a base of Green voters in Saanicn-GI of around 20%, and I'm quite sure she can siphon away a big, big chunk of Briony Penns' votes from last election. I mean, if she can take 30% in rural Nova Scotia...

KenS

Too bad that leap from 32% to 40%+ needed is so big when you are in a 4 party universe.

Which is why if you are serious you try to make that leap in THE riding where you have the best chance and are closest to the national media.... not the one that is best among those where you are willing to live, willing to reach out and court the local riding association, etc.

@WCG:

The question isnt raisng and spending money on the strongest candidates the GPC has.

Its draining the treasury all year round and year after year to feed the maw for May, and even Adrian Carr, regardless of whther she is actually in a posiion to be the most or almost as winnable.

Which is leaving how much money to spread around to those other stronger candidates? And how many of them are there as compared to the number there were in 2008?

janfromthebruce

I haven't posted in a while but if I saw a leader of a party hopping around the country - now on the 3rd province - I'd be parking my vote else where. As to the comment of the ability of siphoning off votes, say from those who normally vote NDP, well May's continual bashing of Jack Layton was such as turn off in the last election that many may be of the opinion that they don't want her anywhere near parliament. Further, if she pulls the same stunts again, make no mistake, someone who normally votes NDP, will vote NDP - full stop rather than have someone bashing their leader.

 

Finally, I read a comment above that stated "gullible ndp voters who voted for a withdrawn candidate", and thought about the assumptions underpinning that belief. Perhaps, some/many/most  but who knows voted for the withdrawn candidate because they were making sure the NDP got their vote and subsidy rather than another party. And thus they were not gulible at all but thoughtful! Surprised

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

IMO  May would be poised to win a seat in the H of C if she had run in the right Ottawa seat twice already.  She would be at home and there is at least as much potential in a couple of the Ottawa ridings.  Until we change our electoral system someone like her running around the country from one end to another just looks like an unseemly carpet bagger looking for voters to propel her career not people who want her as a representative of their RIDING.

Dief ran I think it was four times before getting elected in what was considered a Liberal stronghold.  He never left home and by the tine he had refined his message enough to appeal to voters in his home riding he was ready to take his message onto a national stage.  May is in such a hurry she is going nowhere. 

contrarianna

janfromthebruce wrote:

....

Finally, I read a comment above that stated "gullible ndp voters who voted for a withdrawn candidate", and thought about the assumptions underpinning that belief. Perhaps, some/many/most  but who knows voted for the withdrawn candidate because they were making sure the NDP got their vote and subsidy rather than another party. And thus they were not gulible at all but thoughtful! Surprised

It is also a mistake to presume that it was mostly loyal NDPers who voted for the non-candidate, or who were the "gullible" ones.

The very professional sounding phone election fraud (recieved by me, and blanketing the riding) glossed over the NDPness of the non-candidate and passed itself off as an non-partisan "Environmental Coalition" tricking those with environmental concerns to ruin their vote --to the obvious planned benifit of the Reform-Con candidate.

The investigation of this striking election fraud was dropped by both Elections Canada and the RCMP (for the most specious of reasons).

The fact that none of the parties much pursued this subversion of democracy as a serious issue is equally disturbing.

Lens Solution

Northern Shoveler wrote:

IMO  May would be poised to win a seat in the H of C if she had run in the right Ottawa seat twice already.  She would be at home and there is at least as much potential in a couple of the Ottawa ridings.  Until we change our electoral system someone like her running around the country from one end to another just looks like an unseemly carpet bagger looking for voters to propel her career not people who want her as a representative of their RIDING.

Dief ran I think it was four times before getting elected in what was considered a Liberal stronghold.  He never left home and by the tine he had refined his message enough to appeal to voters in his home riding he was ready to take his message onto a national stage.  May is in such a hurry she is going nowhere. 

I think you make an interesting point.  It's hard to gain much momentum and impact in a riding (not to mention credibility) when you are constantly running around the country looking for a different riding in each election to plunk yourself down in.

If May had stayed in the same riding and run in the same place more than once, perhaps she would be farther ahead.  Most candidates for office who make more than one attempt at getting elected know that you need to build up a standing in one district/region.  You risk losing all the gains you have made when you switch to another riding.

Brian White

I said gullible for a reason. The police invistagated the last minute calls to voters urging them to vote for the withdrawn candidate and couldn't prove where they were coming from. They did NOT come from the NDP organization.  The finger of suspicion most heavily pointed at the conservative campaign. Some people DID change their vote based on these calls and they were NOT happy to find out they were duped.

janfromthebruce wrote:

"Finally, I read a comment above that stated "gullible ndp voters who voted for a withdrawn candidate", and thought about the assumptions underpinning that belief. Perhaps, some/many/most  but who knows voted for the withdrawn candidate because they were making sure the NDP got their vote and subsidy rather than another party. And thus they were not gulible at all but thoughtful! Surprised"

contrarianna

Brian White wrote:

I said gullible for a reason. The police invistagated the last minute calls to voters urging them to vote for the withdrawn candidate and couldn't prove where they were coming from. They did NOT come from the NDP organization. ...

 

The only source to make that rdiculous suggestion, that the NDP would commit the election fraud and then spoof (fake) the caller ID to make it seem it came from their own NDP riding president!--is of course the Reform-Cons:

Quote:
The most obvious suspects would be Conservative Gary Lunn's campaign, who with no NDP candidate in the race face a united progressive vote and a tough challenge from Liberal Briony Penn.

“We didn't do it,” said Lunn's campaign co-manager Byng Giraud. “I hope nobody's thinking it's us. If they were, I'd be quite upset.”

It could be NDP people who didn't like how West was bounced from the race, NDP people who want to get the $1.95 per vote in annual funding for the party or the Green Party, he said.

http://thetyee.ca/Blogs/TheHook/Federal-Politics/2008/10/14/SuspiciousCall/

For the completely implausable reasons Election Canada gave for dropping the election fraud probe, see:

http://thetyee.ca/News/2009/03/20/PhoneFraudCharge/

2dawall

Interesting that the law-and-order party is the most likely to break the laws. Here in Manitoba we had a Tory Taras Sokolyk

who was involved in at least two vote rigging scandals and yet he was still invited back to work for the provinical Tories and the mayor, Sam

Katz and not-so-closeted Tory.

 

And then there was the time that the Reform Alliance hired a former Hell's Angel to spy on Chretien. And then there was ...

 

very law-and-order party indeed

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