Why we need to remember our support in our critical support of the NDP

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Fidel

AS if he cares.

Michelle

I didn't compare labour unions to churches, remind.  As someone who would never be a member of a church again, and who is a proud and active union member, that is a ridiculous reading of my post.

I was simply saying that just because there are a number of people affiliated with an organization who run for the NDP, it doesn't mean that the organization they are affiliated with also supports the NDP as an organization.

But you knew that, didn't you?  Nice smear attempt.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Fidel wrote:

AS if he cares.

That is true. I only found out that she was queer at all over the last few days. I don't actually do a lot of research on people's personal lives.

Thanks for the head up Stockholm.

Michelle

BTW, I didn't say I agreed with Cueball that the NDP is distancing itself from labour.  In fact, I said in another post that I DON'T think that the NDP is divorced from its labour roots.

I just said that it is illogical to assume that because a number of NDP candidates are from the CAW that this means the CAW supports the NDP.  I don't know if things have changed since the big dust-up over Buzz Hargrove and jacket-gate, but I was under the impression that the CAW is no longer affiliated with the NDP organizationally.  If I'm wrong, please do correct me -- I'm no expert on the issue.

That certainly doesn't mean that there aren't lots of other unions who do support the NDP, which is why I don't agree with Cueball and said so.

Fidel

I've met many a Catholic priest who equate the NDP with the devil's socialism. Not all, mind, but far too many. So if anyone doesn't like the NDP, they are in good company. I'm beginning to think as logically as the best of them here. Just sayin'

Fidel

Cueball wrote:

Fidel wrote:

AS if he cares.

That is true. I only found out that she was queer at all over the last few days. I don't actually do a lot of research on people's personal lives.

No up there somewhere you were saying that the NDP has never taken principled stands on gay, lesbian or women's rights.

First of all, a party has to walk the walk and try to elect as many women as possible in order to be taken seriously wrt women's issues. Which party has the highest percentage of women MP's today and voting on women's issues and laws effecting women and their families?

Which party voted near unanimously for same sex marriage rights?

Which party has proposed time and time again to end poverty for the children of women everywhere in Canada?

If these are not principled stands when it actually counts for something, then what is?

No Yards No Yards's picture

remind wrote:

Michelle wrote:
That's stunningly illogical.

Just because there are people from the CAW running for the NDP doesn't mean the CAW as an organization supports the NDP.

That's like listing all the NDP candidates who are Catholic and then using that to claim that the Catholic Church supports the NDP.

What is a list of candidates associated with unions suppose to prove? Is it the same thing that listing the candidates on the Faith and Social Justice committee proves?

ottawaobserver

Michelle wrote:

Nice smear attempt.

Well, I guess you *can* take the Mod out of the grrl.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Fidel wrote:

Cueball wrote:

Fidel wrote:

AS if he cares.

That is true. I only found out that she was queer at all over the last few days. I don't actually do a lot of research on people's personal lives.

No up there somewhere you were saying that the NDP has never taken principled stands on gay, lesbian or women's rights.

Nope. Not what I said. What I said was that their was nothing particularly unusual about it.

Fact: this legislation would not have been passed were it not for the fact that the 67% of all Liberals in Parliament voted for it.

 

Stockholm

I believe that while the CAW as a whole at the national level is not formally affiliated with the NDP - many indvidual CAW locals are NDP affiliated including ones in Windsor and Oshawa.

Fidel

Cueball wrote:

Fidel wrote:

Cueball wrote:

Fidel wrote:

AS if he cares.

That is true. I only found out that she was queer at all over the last few days. I don't actually do a lot of research on people's personal lives.

No up there somewhere you were saying that the NDP has never taken principled stands on gay, lesbian or women's rights.

Nope. Not what I said. What I said was that their was nothing particularly unusual about it.

Fact: this legislation would not have been passed were it not for the fact that the 67% of all Liberals in Parliament voted for it.

Are you trying to tell me that the Liberal Party believes in equality for all Canadians? Is that why they shit-canned our national housing strategy?

Is that why they stole $48 billion from the worker's fund?

Is it why they removed $5 billion from core post-secondary school funding?

Is it why they provided tens of billions of dollars in corporate tax cuts to corporations in order to insulate them from harsh free market forces while destroying the federal social transfer in 1995?

Is it why the Liberals rolled back decades of progress on the social front across Canada during twelve long years in federal government?

You can't be serious.

peterjcassidy peterjcassidy's picture

Relationship with the social democratic left

In the aftermath of the Second World War, various political trends played out within the Canadian labour movement as political parties and their supporters rallied for leadership control of the emerging labour movement.

The Trades and Labour Congress of Canada (TLC) held a policy of non-partisan activity right up until the formation of the CLC. However, within the TLC, efforts were made by Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (CCF) labour activists to attain a policy of CCF support. A significant measure of this support was the 133-133 tie vote at the TLC's 1954 Ontario convention on the matter of CCF support.

With the Canadian Congress of Labour (CCL), the situation was more complex. As a child of the Great Depression and the international romance with revolution in the decades immediately after 1917, Communist Party of Canada labour activists had taken leadership positions in several key unions and locals of CCL-affiliated unions. Indeed, the Workers Unity League (WUL) was a group of Communist-led unions in the 1930s with considerable organizational success. With adoption of the position of a United Front against fascism after 1939, the WUL merged with the CCL.

And even with the CCL there were many local unions with Communist leadership. In particular the United Auto Workers locals in Windsor, Ontario were Communist-led. The orientation of the Windsor UAW locals deeply affected the legislative and parliamentary elections in the Windsor area. In the 1943 elections, the CCF had won all three Windsor-area seats. But in 1945 the UAW locals endorsed three UAW activists who ran as "UAW-Liberal-Labour" candidates with the support of the Labour Progressive Party (LLP). As a result the CCF lost all three Windsor seats. Taking advantage of a mis-step by the leadership of UAW Local 200 in trying to rally a national one-day strike in sympathy of Ford workers, in 1946 CCF activists within the local 195 and 200 overturned their leadership. In addition, the UAW International Board elections of 1947 gave stronger support to Walter Reuther, the CCF-supporting International President. Between these two trends, the Canadian UAW leadership changed directions. In the 1948 provincial elections, the United Auto Workers supported CCF candidates.

Similarly, the International Woodworkers of America (IWA) in British Columbia was also Communist-lead. When, in 1948, CCF supporters gained control of the IWA's New Westminster local, other BC-based (and Communist-led) locals of the IWA withdrew in an attempt to form an independent union. However, this effort failed when the union members did not endorse the change.

Efforts to dislodge Communists from the United Electrical (UE) and the Mine Mill union did not succeed and these unions were expelled from the Canadian Congress of Labour. Hence by 1950, the Canadian Congress of Labour had become a federation of unions which, to a greater of lesser extent, all supported the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation.

With the Trades and Labour Congress of Canada-Canadian Congress of Labour merger complete in 1956, a further step was taken. Although political discussion was downplayed during the merger talks, in 1958 the Canadian Labour Congress and Co-operative Commonwealth Federation set up a 20 person joint committee to discuss the foundation of a new political party. These talks resulted in the founding of the New Democratic Party in 1962. the NDP has, in its constitution, an organic relationship with the labour movement. Many local union organizations directly affiliated with the NDP, giving these local union bodies the right to participate in the Party's conventions and councils. NDP constitution also recognizes the CLC's District Labour Councils—organizations of local unions in a single city or town—as delegating bodies to the conventions of the provincial and federal New Democratic Party sections. Hence, by embedding labour organizations in its structure, the NDP went beyond being simply the party for labour and became of the party of labour.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Labour_Congress

Cueball Cueball's picture

I guess this latest diversion is an admission that really there was nothing really extra special about the NDP position on same sex marriage in comparison to the Liberals, and that you were talking out of your ass.

Webgear

Fidel wrote:

I run around with pamphlets for the NDP every election, and all of us agree that it's a waste of time to go to those houses with yellow ribbons displayed on homes and cars. Nope, they don't like the NDP none too much. One guy told me to get the hell off his property and slammed the door. I just don't understand it. How can the NDP project itself as any more pro-war and pro-US led military occupation of the Stan? I mean come on! Four more wars? I don't think they're buyin' it.

Fidel are you saying the NDP's pro-military stance was a failure, and it was only conducted to gain votes?

Stockholm

What about the pro-Russian bias in the Canadian labour movement that causes labour to turn a blind eye to Russian genocide in Chechnya?

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

What has been studiously avoided here in heaping claims of "organic" NDP-labour links is that those links go both ways and, importantly, the harmful effect of the NDP on the labour movement should be UNDERLINED rather than treated by silence. The milquetoast labour response (at least by higher labour bodies outside of Quebec) to recent Israeli atrocities and war crimes in the Meditteranean Sea being a case in point. It's probably fair to say that the NDP pollutes the labour movement with its Zionist bias.

Edited to add: I've made this point already in a different context. The Conservatives and other right wing political forces try to smear the NDP by treating links to the labour movement as virtually evidence of criminality when, as I'm claiming, the harm goes the other way. And the Conservatives know that, I think.

Other examples could, and should, be provided.

Having made the above observation, I have no problem giving the NDP critical support (in a strictly case-by-case basis). However, I suspect that that is NOT what's being asked for; a blank cheque would be preferred. 

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

6/10 for distraction effort. Your timing is off. Wait a bit longer and it's not so obvious what you're doing. lol, Stockholm.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Webgear wrote:

Fidel wrote:

I run around with pamphlets for the NDP every election, and all of us agree that it's a waste of time to go to those houses with yellow ribbons displayed on homes and cars. Nope, they don't like the NDP none too much. One guy told me to get the hell off his property and slammed the door. I just don't understand it. How can the NDP project itself as any more pro-war and pro-US led military occupation of the Stan? I mean come on! Four more wars? I don't think they're buyin' it.

Fidel are you saying the NDP's pro-military stance was a failure, and it was only conducted to gain votes?

Wink

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

The fact that many on the left place higher political expectations on the NDP is, in fact, evidence of a view not all that different to what i've outlined here on my own behalf. Critical support on a case by case basis.

Lord Palmerston

...and then there was this [url=http://www.jewishtoronto.net/page.aspx?id=118739]gem from Buzz Hargrove a few years ago[/url], which is worse than anything I've seen from the NDP:

Quote:
supporters of a two-state solution to the conflict must recognize the genuine progress that has been made — even, surprisingly, under the leadership of the old warhorse, Ariel Sharon. Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip and proposed relocating more than 80,000 settlers from the West Bank, sparking a huge controversy within Israel.

These were concrete efforts to help find a negotiated settlement with the PLO. Yet they are now all thrown into jeopardy by the extremism of Hamas.

Unfortunately, the situation has gone from bad to worse in the Middle East with the election of the terrorist organization Hamas.

The Hamas election was a major setback to efforts by the PLO and Israel to find a negotiated solution. How can Israel negotiate with Hamas, whose official policy is the annihilation of the Israeli people?

Moreover, Hamas has publicly supported suicide bombers and other acts of terrorism, with the goal of killing and maiming as many innocent Israeli women, children and men as possible.

All this coincides with the rise to power of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who publicly calls for the annihilation of Israel while he continues to develop the capability to build nuclear weapons.

One does not have to support the militarist rhetoric of U.S. President George Bush to recognize that Ahmadinejad's positions are a recipe for catastrophe, and he must be quickly opposed by the international community.

The Canadian labour movement and the left could play an important role in supporting a peaceful resolution to the Middle East conflict. To do this, however, we must get past simple rhetoric — like the claim that Israel is equivalent to the former South African apartheid regime.

As one of the many in the Canadian labour movement who for many years supported the struggle against apartheid, I am disappointed by this unfair depiction.

A more constructive approach for the labour movement would be to support the continuing peace efforts of PLO leader Mahmoud Abbas. We must all condemn Hamas for its support for terrorism and its refusal to recognize the right of Israelis to exist within secure borders, free of the threat of terrorism.

Finally, if a boycott is warranted, why not direct it at the extremist government in Iran for its continuing push to develop nuclear weapons and its official policy to annihilate the Israelis?

Indeed, workers are regularly jailed for any effort to form unions in Iran. If progressives remain silent about what is happening in Iran, we will cede all leadership on the issue to Bush and his allies, who have their own ignoble motives for an escalating conflict with Iran.

Good people on both sides of the Israeli-Palestinian divide have been trying for years to find ways to expand communication, exchange, and trust between them.

Brave leaders, like Abbas and Sharon, have taken enormous risks to bring their respective constituencies toward a peaceful and mutual resolution of the conflict. Recent events in the region, however, give rise to fear and despair.

 

Webgear

Fidel, you did not answer my questions. Try yes or no.

Fidel

Cueball wrote:
I guess this latest diversion is an admission that really there was nothing really extra special about the NDP position on same sex marriage in comparison to the Liberals, and that you were talking out of your ass.

Yes, and only one-third of the Liberal Party voted against gay marriage rights. How do you feel about that?

Or how do you feel about the fact that this gang of Liberals have propped up a ReformaTory government in power with more than 80 confidence votes? Apparently the Liberals and Reform Party retreads have a lot in common, too.

Webgear wrote:
Fidel are you saying the NDP's pro-military stance was a failure, and it was only conducted to gain votes?

What I'm saying is that the NDP could never get away with being the pro-USA stooges that Martin and Harper and Ignatieff are proven to be.

I can't imagine Jack Layton being the same vicious toady to US imperialism that our two colonial administrative party "leaders" have demonstrated themselves to be. Nobody does loyal lap poodle for Uncle Sam like the two same-same parties in Ottawa.

Nobody snivels and grovels to US power like our two designated Bay Street party heads. So I really don't think the NDP can cut their grass on this one, no. It's too much boot-licking for the NDP to steal that low ground.

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

Too much? I thought former Manitoba Premier Doer really tied a lovely yellow militarist ribbon round the Provincial Legislature. Of course, then the critical difference between Doer's "Team" and the Conservatives could focus on "important" things.

Like anti-scab legislation?

uh no. Water policy. Stuff like that.

Fidel

No, the NDP can't stoop lower than the two colonial administrativeship parties in Ottawa when it comes to snivelling, grovelling, and all around US boot-licking. Happy?

Webgear

Fidel, but they can sure try to.

I will give them  "A" for effort, "D-" for results.

 

Fidel

N.Beltov wrote:

Too much? I thought former Manitoba Premier Doer really tied a lovely yellow militarist ribbon round the Provincial Legislature. Of course, then the critical difference between Doer's "Team" and the Conservatives could focus on "important" things.

Like anti-scab legislation?

uh no. Water policy. Stuff like that.

And not only does Manitoba's provincial government have no say whatsoever in federal matters of war, they had nothing to do with the top-down Neoliberalization of Canada since Trudeau-Mulroney, Chretien and Martin. 

You chastized me for flubbing a description of Neoliberal ideology in another thread. I think youve been guilty of waxing a little thin on the Canadian intracacies for it yourself, N.B. Remember what you said, that Neoliberalism is not a scandalous plot but simply the way capitalism works nowadays. Well, it's not working, and the NDP has nothing to do with what the Liberals did in 1995, or what Mulroney and Liberals did before that. The NDP opposed the Neoliberalization of Canada since Trudeau's time.

Fidel

Webgear wrote:

Fidel, but they can sure try to.

I will give them  "A" for effort, "D-" for results.

And I'm glad they'll never have enough Hershey's chocolate on their mustaches enough for profiteering war pigs to want to support them. In the meantime, Canadian soldiers will just have to go wherever in the world Uncle Sam instructs our stooges of the day in Ottawa to send them on fools' errands.

Webgear

Fidel wrote:

Webgear wrote:

Fidel, but they can sure try to.

I will give them  "A" for effort, "D-" for results.

And I'm glad they'll never have enough Hershey's chocolate on their mustaches enough for profiteering war pigs to want to support them.

 

I am glad that you agree that Jack Layton and the NDP has been conducting some serious ass licking in reference to Afghanistan. I am sure that Obama and the US war machine enjoyed it.

Fidel

Yep, and that's why Hillary had to come up here and try to save our stooge's bacon with pretending that Afghanistan is their choice. And their dumb-dumb supporters prolly fell for it, too.

mahmud

"I can't imagine Jack Layton being the same vicious toady to US imperialism that our two colonial administrative party "leaders" have demonstrated themselves to be. Nobody does loyal lap poodle for Uncle Sam like the two same-same parties in Ottawa.

Nobody snivels and grovels to US power like our two designated Bay Street party heads. So I really don't think the NDP can cut their grass on this one, no. It's too much boot-licking for the NDP to steal that low ground."  _Fidel

 

1. I think any comparison should be made between the NDP's stated principles and its actions/inactions, flip-flops included.

2. Yes Cueball did compare the NDP to the Liberals but that is in response to petercassidy's comment implying some NDP monopoly on support for LGTBQ, social justice etc..

3. Jack Layton may not snivel and grovel to US power, but it appears that he has no qualms with sniveling and groveling to Zionists' power.

remind remind's picture

Michelle wrote:
I didn't compare labour unions to churches, remind.  As someone who would never be a member of a church again, and who is a proud and active union member, that is a ridiculous reading of my post.

I was simply saying that just because there are a number of people affiliated with an organization who run for the NDP, it doesn't mean that the organization they are affiliated with also supports the NDP as an organization.

But you knew that, didn't you?  Nice smear attempt.

 

Now...I don't wanna go all wickedly wild here on one another, given we have been getting along so well recently, but my words were no more a smear attempt than yours were. Are you saying yours were?

So, how how about we move along from your unjustified personal attack on me, and just agree that we both made  broad juxtapositions about each others posts in order to get our points across?

 

Mine is:

 

People trying to minimize the labour component of the NDP, truly appear to be grasping at tenuous positioning. At best.

OO actually  gave evidence rebutting cue's, and then yours, empty(as in unsupported) assertions that labour, and  indeed organized labour were not a significant factor in the NDP.

Moreover, I do not believe unions are separate and apart from their composit memberships. And that belief has been garnered through a lifetime of union memebership in serveral unions.

 

No more than the NDP is sepatarate and apart from its members and supporters.  Those who say they hold their nose and vote NDP, all the while complaining, obviously have not gotten deeply involved  with the NDP and made them be the change they want. Pretty damn easy to sit on the perifery and moan and complain, while never thinking the NDP is representative of people who want them to be that way.

Furthermore, you all hold the NDP to higher standards than Libby does apparently, or she would be walking away, fearing to be tainted by association with the NDP.

 

So pardon me if I find the rhetoric hollow.

 

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..i've stopped voting ndp provincially. i do vote for libby which does not mean i support the ndp. i see the ndp membership as my allies in the greater struggle. i see the ndp aristocracy as part of the problem. i see the struggle within the ndp as the membership trying to get back control of the party. i support this difficult struggle.

Fidel

mahmud wrote:
1. I think any comparison should be made between the NDP's stated principles and its actions/inactions, flip-flops included.

2. Yes Cueball did compare the NDP to the Liberals but that is in response to petercassidy's comment implying some NDP monopoly on support for LGTBQ, social justice etc..

3. Jack Layton may not snivel and grovel to US power, but he surely snivels and grovels to Zionists' power.

 

1. ? It is the Liberals who flip-flop between their election campaign promises and when elected to phony-majority government. It's what they do.

2. The Liberals believe in funding equality for profitable and unprofitable corporations and rich friends of the party, but not for people in general, including LGTBQ in Canada. It's what they have done when elected to federal government.

3. The truth is that all parties have denounced anti-semitism and equated IAW with that term. Only the NDP is divided with respect to IAW as being anti-semitic. Not all NDP members supported Tory and Bloc motions to denounce IAW as anti-semitic. Federal Liberals are pathological liars. It's what they are.

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

Fidel wrote:
You chastized me for flubbing a description of Neoliberal ideology in another thread. I think youve been guilty of waxing a little thin on the Canadian intracacies for it yourself, N.B. Remember what you said, that Neoliberalism is not a scandalous plot but simply the way capitalism works nowadays. Well, it's not working, and the NDP has nothing to do with what the Liberals did in 1995, or what Mulroney and Liberals did before that. The NDP opposed the Neoliberalization of Canada since Trudeau's time.

 

At least I understand that it is an ideology. It's not clear to me that you've understood this.

Granted, we can expect something new to come along, once this package of ideas loses its credibility. Personally, I expect a more barefaced Canadian imperialism. And we both know that some NDPers, having long forgotten stories of cats and mice,  will lap this up like a thirsty cat laps milk.

remind remind's picture

Webgear wrote:
Fidel wrote:
Webgear wrote:

Fidel, but they can sure try to.

I will give them  "A" for effort, "D-" for results.

And I'm glad they'll never have enough Hershey's chocolate on their mustaches enough for profiteering war pigs to want to support them.

 

I am glad that you agree that Jack Layton and the NDP has been conducting some serious ass licking in reference to Afghanistan. I am sure that Obama and the US war machine enjoyed it.

 

Really?

 

That is pretty fucking offensive, as I don't quite see Libby and  Bill, nor Alex, nor Joe, doing all that much ass licking, in fact it is slander.

Fidel

epaulo13 wrote:

..i've stopped voting ndp provincially. i do vote for libby which does not mean i support the ndp. i see the ndp membership as my allies in the greater struggle. i see the ndp aristocracy as part of the problem. i see the struggle within the ndp as the membership trying to get back control of the party. i support this difficult struggle.

Provincial NDPs aren't going to be able to make publicly owned and controlled again those valuable utilities and public assets the other two parties sell to their rich friends and making tidy commissions on the side. But provincial NDP governments will generally refuse to pawn off the family jewels and silverware to rich friends of the Liberal and Conservative parties. That and the NDP's opposition to Liberal & Tory parties' whacky deregulation policies that have failed around the world where tried is mainly why I vote NDP provincially.

Fidel

I think Webgear loves the image of the Tories and Liberals in US bondage and boot-licking their way to personal wealth and gain. There's nothing in it for him, he just prefers lap poodles and black, made in USA combat boots is all. A little shoe polish for the tongue maybe I dunno, it's so weird I can't figure it out.

Cueball Cueball's picture

That ass licking portfolio isn't in the hands of Libby or Bill, nor Alex or Joe, now is it? So they wouldn't be doing the ass licking. That would be Dawn and Paul. Notice how Libby's latest foray into the realm of foreign policy got her a good smack down. Indeed, Hack Layton went on to ass lick the Israeli ambassador on her behalf and made her apologize.

Webgear

 

Fidel, I do prefer a bit of bondage myself. You should real open yourself up to new sexual experiences, it might help you some.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Fidel wrote:

Provincial NDPs aren't going to be able to make publicly owned and controlled again those valuable utilities and public assets the other two parties sell to their rich friends and making tidy commissions on the side. But provincial NDP governments will generally refuse to pawn off the family jewels and silverware to rich friends of the Liberal and Conservative parties. That and the NDP's opposition to Liberal & Tory parties' whacky deregulation policies that have failed around the world where tried is mainly why I vote NDP provincially.

..txs fidel. maybe your correct in what you say. for me the party is just not radical enough for me when they are in power. there's some serious shit going on in the world and the ndp in power offers no solutions other than a diminishing defence.

remind remind's picture

Then if they were/are such great pople that you admire,  they would be leaving the NDP, lest they be contaminated and credentials lost, eh cue.....

 

Are you all going to start condemning them shortly too, as how can they stay in such a terrible evil party?

 

Especially Libby, as she is deputy leader of said evil party.  You all should be demanding she resign, so you can keep on supporting her, before you too become tarnished,  as being an ass licker.

 

It is amazing to me the discontinuity ya'll have to hold in order to  have and hold  said negative reality. Libby is NDP aristocracy, epaulo, for a good example of irrational discontinuity..though perhaps hypocrisy is more like it.

anyway... no point in saying more, as to many back flips have to made by you pure people, in truth, for you to be able hold such a  discontinuity in perceptions.

 

 

Cueball Cueball's picture

Who said it was evil? What was said was that it was the party of Labour, LGBQ rights, social justice, and the party of "peace". It was said that this justified "critical support". I said that there is nothing in the recent past that really suggests that any of that is true.

In the case of Davies, the recent crap over her statements, which anywhere else in the world, in any "left" party, would be considered mild exhibits once again just how far through the looking glass the NDP has gone. It was a nice try by Libby to get some actual discussion going around Palestine, but the smack down has surely put the lid on any critical analysis of the facts in that situation for quite some time. Davies, is in damage control mode in the party, and has to look sharp in order to avoid the fate of McDonough and Robinson before her.

Ergo: Silence will have been achieved. That is good enough for the powers that be.

The NDP is not a party of the left, it is a party where some leftist try and eek out political survival. In order to do so, they basically have to strive for the mediocrity that is now the NDP's trade mark.

Evil? Only if you think irrelevance is evil. Maybe in that sense it could be.

remind remind's picture

Sealed

 

backflips........

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Quote

Libby is NDP aristocracy, epaulo, for a good example of irrational discontinuity..though perhaps hypocrisy is more like it.

..i gauge aristocracy by what is produced and not by individual positions. is this so farfetched?

remind remind's picture

yup

 

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

remind wrote:

yup

 

 

..it's true my reality has flaws. i even know then sometimes but to be honest this isn'tone of them.

Fidel

epaulo13 wrote:

Fidel wrote:

Provincial NDPs aren't going to be able to make publicly owned and controlled again those valuable utilities and public assets the other two parties sell to their rich friends and making tidy commissions on the side. But provincial NDP governments will generally refuse to pawn off the family jewels and silverware to rich friends of the Liberal and Conservative parties. That and the NDP's opposition to Liberal & Tory parties' whacky deregulation policies that have failed around the world where tried is mainly why I vote NDP provincially.

..txs fidel. maybe your correct in what you say. for me the party is just not radical enough for me when they are in power. there's some serious shit going on in the world and the ndp in power offers no solutions other than a diminishing defence.

The other two parties will be glad to pawn off your hydro and water and telephone utils and profitable liquor and beer stores to their rich friends. Easy come easy go. And you'll end up paying through the nose to live in the end. Mark my words, epaulo, mark my words. And the two old line parties in Ottawa will make it harder and harder for provinces to deliver public programs to the point where big business will be scooping up everything that matters for a song. And then the real fun begins. Neoliberalism is failing all around the world where tried. It's failed in Ontario, and it will fail everywhere else in Canada. You can bank on it.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Fidel wrote:

The other two parties will be glad to pawn off your hydro and water and telephone utils and profitable liquor and beer stores to their rich friends. Easy come easy go. And you'll end up paying through the nose to live in the end. Mark my words, epaulo, mark my words. And the two old line parties in Ottawa will make it harder and harder for provinces to deliver public programs to the point where big business will be scooping up everything that matters for a song. And then the real fun begins. Neoliberalism is failing all around the world where tried. It's failed in Ontario, and it will fail everywhere else in Canada. You can bank on it.

..i do have an understanding of what the lib and cons do fidel. what i need from you is to address my concerns which i believe to be every bit as valid as yours. i'll do the same for you.

Cueball Cueball's picture

He isn't interested in addressing any concerns, He is just running flak.

Fidel

The stooges are losing us jobs and prosperity everywhere, and they don't know how to fix their false, neoliberalized economy. I guess they'll just have to face the music come next election.

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