Why Won't the Opposition Topple the Government?

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Rexdale_Punjabi Rexdale_Punjabi's picture

yea that tru still basically every1 outside the hood is suppoed to be mid class esp with white ppl n they bein tricced thru many things race bein one of them into voting against their own interests

ottawaobserver

Hi again Infosaturated.

To give you a little background on perhaps why Stockholm and Peter3 were a bit harsh, here's what usually happens here on Babble:  an election gets close (or an election scare in this case), and suddenly a lot of new people show up on Babble claiming variations on "I used to be NDP but now I've seen the light" or "I think the NDP has some good points but they'll never win", and then proceed to spout all the talking points of the Liberal or Conservative campaign.

You can pretty much set your watch by it.  They often get called "trolls" here, because they are suspected to be people in the employ of the other parties who are sent here to stir things up a bit and get the spin out, and try to egg NDPers on to agree with them.  It gets tiresome for Babble regulars, who usually dispatch them with suitable disdain.

One of the canards usually trotted out is the assertion that Jack Layton killed daycare and Kelowna.  Unfortunately for you, the Liberals were reasonably successful at promulgating that one out through their friendly friends in the mainstream media, and so the perception is widely held amongst people who were not party to all the details.  Hence, Stockholm and Peter3 mistook you for a troll, rather than someone who was honestly trying to assess the various parties, their histories and contributions, and so forth.

It could just as easily have been me doing it, but since it wasn't, I guess I can be the one to say: don't take it personally, stick around for a bit, and give us another chance.  We're actually pretty nice and serious people.  Another couple of days and you'll start to notice the real trolls come out, and then you'll see what we mean ;-)

Infosaturated

ottawaobserver wrote:
One of the canards usually trotted out is the assertion that Jack Layton killed daycare and Kelowna.  Unfortunately for you, the Liberals were reasonably successful at promulgating that one out through their friendly friends in the mainstream media, and so the perception is widely held amongst people who were not party to all the details.  Hence, Stockholm and Peter3 mistook you for a troll, rather than someone who was honestly trying to assess the various parties, their histories and contributions, and so forth.

It could just as easily have been me doing it, but since it wasn't, I guess I can be the one to say: don't take it personally, stick around for a bit, and give us another chance.  We're actually pretty nice and serious people.  Another couple of days and you'll start to notice the real trolls come out, and then you'll see what we mean ;-)

Yeah I will, and I'll even apologize for getting snarky in return. Trolls aren't exactly a rarity on message boards so I shouldn't have taken offense so easily.  I will stick around because I am genuinely struggling with the pull between progressive values and self-interest, between idealism and pragmatism, and oftentimes with resignation, or fear of the future for my daughter. I'm 55. I'll suffer the effects of climate-change but my daughter and eventually her children are going to be the ones paying the price. 

Rexdale_Punjabi Rexdale_Punjabi's picture

aii info hope 2 learn from u n hope u can learn something from me.

 

Peter3

Infosaturated wrote:

You aren't going to achieve your goals by insulting people and talking down to them. You may make yourself feel superior so if that is your goal have at it. 

 

Whatever.

If you don't want to get barked at, don't recite fatuous partisan spin as the core of a lecture on what people are doing wrong. Otherwise, you might want to grow a thicker skin.

 ETA: Posted this before seeing your last comment.  Fair enough. Let's leave it at that.

Infosaturated

Rexdale_Punjabi wrote:

yea that tru still basically every1 outside the hood is suppoed to be mid class esp with white ppl n they bein tricced thru many things race bein one of them into voting against their own interests

Exactly.  The corporate army has been very clever in manipulating identity politics, getting the middle-class to identify with the wealthy and believe that if they do it there way they might even join them.  They have been clever about separating people by race and status and condemning "class warfare" when class warfare is exactly what they have been waging against everyone else. 

One angle that could work very well, because it's true and easy to support, is painting both Harper and Ignatieff as corporate puppets. Then the choice can be framed as "anybody but the corporate shills" instead of "anybody but the conservatives".

Honestly I don't follow politics closely enough to say which ridings are in play but I do know that there are plenty of people very pissed off and feeling like they have no choice.

I was very upset when Dion was replaced by Ignatieff but at first I thought, well, he's very intelligent maybe he could work out if he has changed his mind about some of his past statements.  Then he let the January budget pass without making a single little tiny demand. Nothing. Never even mentioned pay equity for women.  That's when I knew it was over. They had won. The party leadership is in the hands of business and sabotaged Dion so they could drop in the guy they wanted in the first place.  Rae was just a distraction to give the party a bit of lefty veneer.

I pray that Layton takes the high-road and speaks directly to the public.  He shouldn't let himself be dragged into shouting matches and arguements with the other parties.  Right now the Liberals are riding high but that is the "anybody but Harper" factor. If Harper and Ignatieff can be exposed as two sides of the same coin I think the NDP could make some big gains.

That would actually make a pretty good clip, a penny with Harper's head on one side and Ignatieff's on the other. 

News on in the background recounting all the negative hits regular people have taken, job losses, savings gone, kids only able to get contract jobs,healthcare privatization etc.

Various obviously wealthy people could be flipping a coin saying heads you lose, and the penny always turning up one head or the other causing them to laugh hysterically. 

End with, "look around, there is an alternative"...not Layton because that could be seen as just another "head"...instead the NDP website address appears in a large font with an invitation to "come see our platform".

 

Stockholm

Incidentally, how come no one ever accuses Duceppe and the BQ of "killing child care and Kelowna"?? They never even tried to make a deal with the Liberals in '05 wanting to force an election at all cost and unlike the NDP - the BQ actually had enough seats to make a difference. I know a lot of self-styled progressives in English Canada have this inexplicable sentimental attachment to Duceppe that makes them very reluctant to criticize him for anything - while they take pot shots at the NDP.

ottawaobserver

Good point, Stockholm.  Duceppe is shrewd, but not at all sentimental himself (except for the time I saw him salute Broadbent in the House on his retirement).

Infosaturated

Because no one expects the Bloc to be cooperative because they are a "separatist" party. 

Just like right now if the government falls it will be on the head of Liberals, not the NDP or the Bloc.

Rexdale_Punjabi Rexdale_Punjabi's picture

Infosaturated wrote:

Rexdale_Punjabi wrote:

yea that tru still basically every1 outside the hood is suppoed to be mid class esp with white ppl n they bein tricced thru many things race bein one of them into voting against their own interests

Exactly.  The corporate army has been very clever in manipulating identity politics, getting the middle-class to identify with the wealthy and believe that if they do it there way they might even join them.  They have been clever about separating people by race and status and condemning "class warfare" when class warfare is exactly what they have been waging against everyone else. 

One angle that could work very well, because it's true and easy to support, is painting both Harper and Ignatieff as corporate puppets. Then the choice can be framed as "anybody but the corporate shills" instead of "anybody but the conservatives".

Honestly I don't follow politics closely enough to say which ridings are in play but I do know that there are plenty of people very pissed off and feeling like they have no choice.

I was very upset when Dion was replaced by Ignatieff but at first I thought, well, he's very intelligent maybe he could work out if he has changed his mind about some of his past statements.  Then he let the January budget pass without making a single little tiny demand. Nothing. Never even mentioned pay equity for women.  That's when I knew it was over. They had won. The party leadership is in the hands of business and sabotaged Dion so they could drop in the guy they wanted in the first place.  Rae was just a distraction to give the party a bit of lefty veneer.

I pray that Layton takes the high-road and speaks directly to the public.  He shouldn't let himself be dragged into shouting matches and arguements with the other parties.  Right now the Liberals are riding high but that is the "anybody but Harper" factor. If Harper and Ignatieff can be exposed as two sides of the same coin I think the NDP could make some big gains.

That would actually make a pretty good clip, a penny with Harper's head on one side and Ignatieff's on the other. 

News on in the background recounting all the negative hits regular people have taken, job losses, savings gone, kids only able to get contract jobs,healthcare privatization etc.

Various obviously wealthy people could be flipping a coin saying heads you lose, and the penny always turning up one head or the other causing them to laugh hysterically. 

End with, "look around, there is an alternative"...not Layton because that could be seen as just another "head"...instead the NDP website address appears in a large font with an invitation to "come see our platform".

 

exactly n if u wanna look at it in a big picture they been doing that since this shit started way bacc when they didnt deny forcin poor ppl period to come here. I dont say slavery because it continuing u know. N it been done since then. If only I could get the chance to lead one of those parties. Would be too greezy n too funny. im not votin age or w.e but actually not even I dont even want to lead I jus want my voice to be heard. Like they should do that instead of doin bullshit like this part of a real democracy is u know actually listening to the ppl ur supposed to be representing? Of course it never dawned on the follyticians to think of regular ppl as nothing but 1 vote. Ima start a new thread but I wanna say something still

Fidel
Frmrsldr

Yeah. Some of us 'squares' have trouble with the lingo.

Debater

Stockholm wrote:

Incidentally, how come no one ever accuses Duceppe and the BQ of "killing child care and Kelowna"?? They never even tried to make a deal with the Liberals in '05 wanting to force an election at all cost and unlike the NDP - the BQ actually had enough seats to make a difference. I know a lot of self-styled progressives in English Canada have this inexplicable sentimental attachment to Duceppe that makes them very reluctant to criticize him for anything - while they take pot shots at the NDP.

Yes on this board it often seems that there are some people who want the BQ to continue to win a lot of seats.  In fact, it sometimes appears that people want the BQ to do better than the Liberals in QC even though the Liberals are a federalist party and the BQ is not.  I think you are right that some of that comes from the fact that Duceppe has been progressive in areas such as gay rights where he has always been a genuine advocate of it throughout his career.

What will be interesting is whether there will be as much support for the BQ here when Duceppe retires and what will happen if he is replaced with someone who does not have the same amount of respect from left of centre voters.

Stockholm

Layton has a much longer and more impressive history than Duceppe of being progressive in such areas as gay rights - and yet that doesn't seem to make people cut him any slack the weay they do with Duceppe.

Rexdale_Punjabi Rexdale_Punjabi's picture

stoccholm remember a lot of ppl dont look  at the issues but how they feel about the leader. Duceppe from what I know hasnt thrown out his princicpls and the base he started for Jacc Layton is seen by the general public as being a 2-face who will make a deal with any party to gain power in parliament. Thats why

ottawaobserver

Stockholm, I'm certainly not one to sentimentalize Duceppe, especially in comparison with Layton.  I do give Duceppe credit for being shrewd and unsentimental himself.  But Layton has a much harder row to hoe, given that Duceppe can count on supportive to fawning media coverage in Québec while Jack has to work for every bit he gets, and it's all uphill; or that Duceppe has the support of the left in Québec who understand the point of tactics, while Layton (like all NDP leaders) is second-guessed at every turn.  It's miraculous what Layton has accomplished in that set of circumstances, and even more so (to me anyway) that he seems to do it all with boundless energy and optimism.  We're lucky he even wanted the job in 2003, in fact.

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

Quote:
Duceppe from what I know hasnt thrown out his princicpls and the base he started for Jacc Layton is seen by the general public as being a 2-face who will make a deal with any party to gain power in parliament.

This makes me curious: What principles has Jack supposedly thrown out, according to the general public? Why is his willingness to try to make a dysfunctional Parliament work seen as "being a 2-face"?

Rexdale_Punjabi Rexdale_Punjabi's picture

Lard Tunderin Jeezus wrote:

Quote:
Duceppe from what I know hasnt thrown out his princicpls and the base he started for Jacc Layton is seen by the general public as being a 2-face who will make a deal with any party to gain power in parliament.

This makes me curious: What principles has Jack supposedly thrown out, according to the general public? Why is his willingness to try to make a dysfunctional Parliament work seen as "being a 2-face"?

honestly idk I see alot of shit bare ppl think the coalition with the liberals was 1 thing but I think it could just be u know propoganda that no1 really knows where it came from but it been planted. One huge problem is that the NDP never really gets any time on the air to refute it u never hear shit from them. Thinking about it u dont hear a lot about the Corporate Party generally either but it doesnt have BS spewed about it.

Well Dion had shit n it stucc. Honestly tho Dion may have been the 1st guy in politriccs I actually liked. And aint even issues n shit I didnt look into that a lot with a lot of this shit I go with my gut feeling and it ends up being right a lot. Dion seemed like sum1 who was str8 up n honest and he was attaced for it.

 

Proof that my gut feeling has been ok so far take Stephen Harper. I remember being younger and seein him on TV and I just wanted to punch him and guess what? lol still get that feeling. Jacc layton idk kinda neutral Ignatieff I dont like just dont hate as much as harper I guess cuz he aint had a chance to be in power yet. Duceppe seems ok but idk about him u know uneasy about it. Thats my honest ting n the Green Party leader idk so I cant say kinda uneasy about it too.

Thats my honest shit about it.

 

Jacc layton tho adding on cuz that what you asked it seems like he aint in the public eye enuff so ppl dont feel like they know him at all and along with shit spread about him it doesnt paint a bad image but not a good one either n ppl will vote for what they think is better. He needs more publicity real talk. I hope ppl know that follyticians dont act like themselves on stage but ppl are swayed by feelings and harper and ignatieff dont give no good feelings but, a lot of ppl wont even consider the NDP cuz they aint there at all. And a lot of ridings dont even have an ndp candidiate.

 

edit - But I really think it just has to do with the coalitions ppl who would vote for NDP just look at that like a deal with the devil and just choose not to vote. If the NDP actually got some real time not no like political speeches but just time to talk to ppl on a real basis n break down issues u know on a real tip like how shit works cuz a lot of ppl dont know but would like to it would help majorly. Agen a lot of shit just comes down to publicity and we have the MSM to blame for that.

RedRover

I just read in Le Devoir that Iggy won't topple the government before the summer.

Since he is well ahead in the polls, especially in Ontario which has one-third of the seats in the country, he must be a political idiot.  He is certainly a well known academic in foreign policy, but he is a dolt when it comes to understanding the ins-and-outs of electoral politics in Canada.

That's my contribution to this thread.  It would seem that both the Bloc and NDP would be vulnerable heading into an election where the Liberals are on the uptick with momentum.  The Conservatives are dead in the water during this recession.  It would've been Iggy's to lose, and he gave up before he started.  Unreal.

With the abandonment of the Coalition, this would be the second time Iggy had a chance to run things, and I'm starting to think he has more confidence in Harper's government than he'd have for one of his own.

Does that sound reasonable Liberaler?

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

The Libs don't have a clear enough lead in the polls to form a majority; Canadians generally hate summer elections; and it's debateable whether the Liberals can actually afford to contest an election right now - wouldn't it be the second in less than a year?  I think Iggy will wait until the fall to vote non-confidence in the government.

ottawaobserver

Yes, and I think that it was going to be a complicated sell to the public that a summer election just nine months after the last one was going to do anything to help them out, and Iggy doesn't have enough political experience to pull that one off yet I don't believe.

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

I think a summer election would only benefit the neoCons - might even give them a majority.Yell

ottawaobserver

Iggy just said that he was so worried about public finances that if the government was able to persuade him that EI changes were too expensive he's be prepared to listen to that.

johnpauljones

ottawaobserver wrote:

if the government was able to persuade him that EI changes were too expensive he's be prepared to listen to that.

 

Wow what great leadership from PM in waiting Iggy. You know the cons ads were off the mark . It does not matter that Iggy lived in the US for so long. The issue is that the man has no backbone.

 

He has just ensured that we have a cons gov't till hell freezes over. Only to be replaced by a cons government in a suit with a red tied rather than a blue one.

 

Stockholm

"Duceppe from what I know hasnt thrown out his princicpls and the base"

Actually, I think that there are ton of examples of Duceppe betraying all his principles and his base over and over and over again. He had the BQ vote for two consecutive Tory budgets both of which were heavily larded with rightwing policies that the BQ supposedly opposes. He had the BQ vote AGAINST an NDP motion to raise the federal minimum wage to $10/hour for areas under federal jurisdiction. and the ultimate betrayal of principles (If I were a soevereignist) was how he was prepared to make Stephane Dion - a man who is HATED (and I mean HATED) in nationalist circles in Quebec because of his hardball tactics against sovereignty and the Clarity Act - PM in the coalition and the BQ extracted vortually no concessions for Quebec at all.

 

Need i say more?

remind remind's picture

ottawaobserver wrote:
Iggy just said that he was so worried about public finances that if the government was able to persuade him that EI changes were too expensive he's be prepared to listen to that.

Exactly as Ihave maintained all along, this was all smoke and mirrors in order to increase EI threshhold levels, and to be able to sell it as EI reform.

The Cons and the Libs are exactly the same, controlled by the same people, with the same motives. People dellude themselves into believing in differences between them.

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

Not exactly the same, because there is still a rank & file that believes that the Liberals are still the party of Pearson and Trudeau.

This rank & file are the people who elected Dion as party leader - the leader that has since been systematically humiliated and deposed in a coup. The power elite have regained absolute control of the Liberal Party - just as they had under their completely incompetent puppet, Paul Martin.

remind remind's picture

Excellent point LTJ, when are the rank and file going to wake up though? Surely it must be sometime soon that they stop being beguiled by the operant conditioning fed to them. I know that portraying a sentiment of "they are all the same" is part of this conditioning, but one would hope that at some point,  people shrug this off, and start acting for their own best interests..

Fidel

I forget which reporter was speaking last night on CBC News, I have closed-captioning on my TV and missed who was speaking. But I thought he said something about Iggy being afraid of a coalition with the NDP and would want to avoid it by all means. And at some point later, Iggy and Jack and Gilles all said that Canadians probably dont want another election so soon. And I thought to myself, hmmm?

Uncle John

60 MPs will lose their pensions if there is an election and they lose.

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

Is that your argument against an election???

ottawaobserver

Uncle John wrote:

60 MPs will lose their pensions if there is an election and they lose.

Over half of them Conservatives.  So what?

remind remind's picture

Ya seriously so what? if they are afraid they are going to lose and thus do not want an election over loss of pensions, which need to be actually reformed anyway, then they are are piss poor MP in the first place, and should be the hell outta there.

Fidel

Uncle John wrote:

60 MPs will lose their pensions if there is an election and they lose.

How can they collect pensions and work in Ottawa at the same time?

Unless you mean MP's who havent served enough time in Ottawa to qualify for federal pensions. In that case, they wouldnt be losing anything if they dont have it in the first place.

And besides, a few of the old line party faves in the Liberal and Tory parties will likely be kicked-up to the senate where theyll enjoy gold-plated pensions and taxpayer funded perks for life.

RedRover

Uncle John wrote:

60 MPs will lose their pensions if there is an election and they lose.

L. Ian MacDonald first made this argument last week about the Bloc MPs and wished people a happy people a summer.

Frankly, the argument is bullshit since many MPs would lose their salary if they pissed around on this issue and let Harper destroy the country.  Their salary outweighs their pensions...always.

The Bloc proved this point true by saying they would vote against the budget, risking their pensions, within about 48 hours of MacDonald's idiotic comments.

BTW - MacDonald's next column called those who would challenge the government at this point "fools" so I think the asshole some expensive travel plans or something is trying his best to stop an election - how many other journos are in the same situation...?

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