Yay, NDP!!! Oh!! So sorry, Canada.

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ReeferMadness
Yay, NDP!!! Oh!! So sorry, Canada.

What a great day for the NDP.  You dippers must be positively orgasmic.  I've seen so much discussion over the years about how great it would be if the NDP could just knock the Liberals out of second place.  Well, you've done it!!  So, now what?

Well, first Jack  will have to introduce himself to his Quebec caucus, assuming they can all be found.  Then he'll have to figure out how he can be the voice of Quebec, from downtown Toronto.  What adventure!  What fun!

From now until 2015, we'll be treated to the spectacle of Harper monotoning his speeches in parliament while he dismantles federal institutions.  Goodbye, CBC.  Canada Health Act, what's that?  No more of those commie voter subsidies to put a dent in the Conservatives fund-raising advantage. But it's all good 'cause we'll get to watch smilin Jack squawk impotently from across the aisle.  The result will be more polarized politics which will turn off more voters.  And that will play back into Harper's hands.

The best part is that all those blind NDP partisans who've been swearing that Harper is no worse than the Liberals are now going to get to find out for sure. 

Regions: 
Malcolm Malcolm's picture

As opposed to you blind Liberal partisans who supported Harper on every reactionary initiative for the past five years.  Give it a freakin' rest.

Erik Redburn

Please stop blaming the NDP for the Harper majority.  It was obviously the rightwing of the Liberal Party that swung to Harper in the last minute to keep us 'commies' out that did it.  You know the ones that spent ten years of majority government following every move that Mulroney and Manning laid out, on the theory it would make them unstoppable.   A high percentage of SGI NDPers OTOH went Green to give May her long covetted seat.    I, as you can read here, even defended that tactic.  (in those few areas it could work)  Did the Liberals reciprocate in any way?   No, they just joined in the dishonest last minute attacks against Layton when they were hopelessly behind.   

Next time you want to talk strategic partnership you better think more carefully about who you approach, cuz Jack at least is now leader of the opposition.  That is the one thing we can now build on.  

Fidel

Liberal Party should be gung ho about electoral reform now. They won 11 percent of the seats with nearly 19 percent of the vote. They was robbed. 

And the ReformaTories won 45 more seats than they deserved percentage wise. The Harpers made out like bandits.

Erik Redburn

Ya, electoral reform may have won another sympathetic ear, but don't bet on the Bay Street 'moderates' accepting it. 

Fidel

I think the LPC is done as a national party. They stood for so little for too long and waited far too late to start promising a few good things in their platform.  I actually thought that it would take modernizing our electoral system before that party imploded. How wrong I was about that. 

Erik Redburn

Silver linings comrade.  We shall see what transpires next few years.   I just wanted a couple years away fom heavy politics but i guess that one aint gonna be.  

ghoris

Greg Weston's take: "How the Liberal meltdown gave Stephen Harper his majority"

Quote:
 So what went so horribly wrong?

The short answer is a series of strategic miscalculations, compounded by the simple reality that the vast majority of Canadians have never warmed to Michael Ignatieff.

...

A Liberal insider says "there was a sense that public perceptions were not going to change without an election."

They did that, all right. But the more Canadians came to know Ignatieff, the more public opinion turned against him.

The Tories won their majority because more people voted for them in Ontario in 2011 than in 2008. But if you want to point the finger of blame at someone, the Grits are a more apt target than the NDP.

Fidel

Conservatives kept mentioning the economy, the economy, they have to get down to what they were born to do, which is apparently to fix the economy that's been fragile and weaker by every election since Brian Mulroney's time in the sun. Their Bay Street puppetmasters and them have tied Canada'e economic wagon of fortunes to those of an empire in decline. There will be some percentage of Tory voters who think Harper has something up his sleeve to fix the broken ideology. Wait til they realize he doesn't have a clue the same as all other conservative politicians around the western world. I think it's a general rule that new cars and conservative politicians do not appreciate in value over time.

Malcolm Malcolm's picture

Pundit's Guide will be collating a list of constituencies where the "strategic" voting fraud artists recommended voting Liberal - and helped deliver the seats to the Conservatives.

Aristotleded24

Malcolm wrote:
Pundit's Guide will be collating a list of constituencies where the "strategic" voting fraud artists recommended voting Liberal - and helped deliver the seats to the Conservatives.

Do you think that may partially explain why the NDP was not able to, on balance, take away seats from the Conservatives outside of Quebec?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

At least possibly.

The continued hangover of resentment about the Rae government in Ontario also did damage...And I wonder how long that will hang on?  I mean, Christ, the NDP lost power their fifteen years ago and Rae's a Liberal now.  Why do people STILL hold a grudge against an entire party for what was basically one leader's failure of nerve?

The other question is vote turnout...if it was lower than expected(btw, does anyone know what the turnout totals were yet?)WHY was that the case?

Did the massage parlour smear drive turnout down?  Did the young just decide voting wasn't cool after all(or get collectively threatened by large numbers of Tory parents with loss of tuition money if they voted or voted wrong)?

bekayne

Ken Burch wrote:

The other question is vote turnout...if it was lower than expected(btw, does anyone know what the turnout totals were yet?)WHY was that the case?

The Elections Canada site has it around 61% so far

Incorrect

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Malcolm wrote:
Pundit's Guide will be collating a list of constituencies where the "strategic" voting fraud artists recommended voting Liberal - and helped deliver the seats to the Conservatives.

Do you think that may partially explain why the NDP was not able to, on balance, take away seats from the Conservatives outside of Quebec?

Four years of "strong, stable, Conservative majority government" shock and awe will make people immune to such fraudulent enticements. Voters will gladly elect New Democrats, who by that time will probaby have moved to the center a little to prevent a Liberal resurrection. Once the Liberals are eliminated as a center-left option, the NDP can move back to the left again without fear of competition. Then the real struggle will begin against the NeoClowns. It will be take no prisoners class warfare, with a deeply dissatisfied Quebec on board to terrify the right wing federalists into submission.

Harper and his stupid cowboys had better get their heads around the fact that their right wing fantasy of turning Canada into an Ayn Rand inspired Hollywood disaster epic will destroy this country. Just because Quebec embraced a federalist party does not mean they have abandonned their culture and their identity. That includes their political culture, not just their artistic and culinary tastes. The NDP was elected because Quebecers share their left wing social vision, and wanted to see it implemented by a party with power in Ottawa, not because they now detest the idea of sovereignty. 

The NeoClowns had better understand this, and understand it soon. I expect they will realize it the next time Stephen harper shows his face in Montreal. He will probably be treated like the head of an occupying foreign army, rather than as Quebec's Prime Minister. 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Merci Beaucoup!/Hear, hear! 

Uncle John

I think Banana Republicans is much better than Reform-A-Tories.

:D

Incorrect

The Conservatives managed to garner a whopping 17% of the popular vote in Quebec. 83% of Quebecers rejected Stephen Harper's political vision. They did not reject Canada or even a particular federalist proposal or ideal. They rejected the particular political Conservatism of Stephen Harper. The Conservative party is now about as legitimate in Quebec as the Bloq Quebecois is in Alberta. I fail to see how much stability this will bring to Canada, either in the short or long term. The New Democratic party can probably be seen as Quebec's third and final federalist option.  It's three strikes and you're out Canada. If Quebec cannot have it's political priorities respected within Canada by a successful federalist party, one with power in Otttawa, then they will soon turn once again to a sovereignist option, this time perhaps for the last time. I think that many Quebecers really expected a coalition government, one without the Bloc Quebecois, but one that nevertheless carried their concerns to Ottawa. They voted to get back in from the separatist wilderness, to work within Canada, but on their terms. Now they are again on the outside, with their hopes entrusted to a strange new political vehicle, a new model with a catchy orange paint job, knowing that they have to endure a Canada that is unpalatable for another four or perhaps eight years(as do the 60% of Canadians who rejected Stephen Harper). But unlike English Canada, Quebec can just opt out of the whole f*cking program if it looks like they are going to have to wait forever for the right coalition alignment to come along once again. I doubt that they will be willing to do so 40 years after the quiet revolution. I doubt very much that Stephan Harper will give them reason to be patient while he remakes(destroys) Canada over the next four or perhaps even eight years.

Political Stability? Don't count on it. 

The Liberals had better get their shit together in a hurry, and jettison their right wing if they want to rebuild in Quebec, Toronto or any place else. No more of this "we're left but we're really right" smug, stealth conservative f*cking crap. The stakes are too high now, both for them and for the country. The time for playing games is over. It's time to shit or get off the pot Iggy, Bob, Justin, or whever is lined up next for the expected coronation that leadership of that party once guaranteed. Liberals, let Stephen Harper have his 905 416 ethnoburbia or whatever the hell he calls it. Even with that and all of the West, the best he could muster was less than 40% of the popular vote. The seat count went his way because of vote splitting, pure and simple. The Conservatives have won seats, but they have not gained political legitimacy. None whatsoever. They lost the popular vote, and they cannot blame it on Quebec nationalists this time around. They lost because most Canadians reject their ideology and their goals, and fear that they are arrogant enough to force it down our throats with less than a majority of popular support. And they will do it. Just watch them.

Again, stability? Don't count on it?   

As for the Liberals. They really showed their true colours, didn't they? They fractured under pressure. A house divided against itself cannot stand, and stand it did not. The Liberals will either have to merge with the NDP, dissolve, or form a pact with the NDP that includes not fielding candidates in certain ridings next time around. It's either that or crawl under a rock and die(the preferred option if you ask me). I guess they could get away with their bullsh*t when Canada's middle class was more secure and more optimistic, and the poor were a group that was shrinking not growing. Those days are gone, replaced by high tuition high debt, and low savings, and jobs that are Made in China. Canadians don't have time for that garbage anymore. They will be soon be gone like Ignatieff. Perhaps because, like Ignatieff, they were never really here.

I can't wait until the Conservatives start their little 'extreme makeover' of Canadian government and politics. We shall see just how stable this country really is under their "God blessed" guidance. 

KenS

I think Incorrect has it right: the cons have their majority, but they also have guaranteed pervasive political instability. One of the reasons lefties are chronically hysterical about Harper majority- long before it happened- is that they have a deluded static notion of the Cons issuing edicts from the Hill. As if winning every vote in the House would achieve that.

And ironically, political volatility that is ready to bite them- long before the next election they have to survive, let alone win- will effectively turn that power to win every vote into something very contingent in practice. A lot like what they already have. We and the NDP are solidly lodged in that contingency. And we are positioned to make a lot more of it than the pathetic charade we've beeen watching for 5 years, led by the witless navel gazing Liberal Party of Canada.

Incorrect wrote:

Harper and his stupid cowboys had better get their heads around the fact that their right wing fantasy of turning Canada into an Ayn Rand inspired Hollywood disaster epic will destroy this country.

But this fundamentally misunderstands the Cons. They certainly have this prediliction. And they are prone to overplaying their hand- but at times, not as a general rule. They have been changing the counry for 5 years. They have learned that slow but steady gets the jib done. Tom Flannagan's book expressed the plan that gave the somewhat democratic-bucolic version of the right wing fantasy they had when they came to power: change the collective mind and political culture of Canada; get majority[s]; then set about changing the country.

That plan went out the door by 2007. Replaced by manipilute shamelessly; make change while flying under the radar; boil the frog slowly and steadily.

Our opportunity is that they will see this as even easier now. They will not intend to engage in roll out of right fantasy agendas. But that whole model depends on the Canadian public in snooze mode.

Ant that has been definitively blown out of the water.

Our first job is to undertsand that we could let it just drift away from us.

Forty percent is traditioally enough for a majority. But the razor thin nature is a sword hanging over the Cons. And the dessert for them in Quebec is toxic to the rope that holds the sword off of them.

[Mind you, the inherent instability within the NDP Caucus is a work that has to be addressed quickly carefuly. Because that is the flip side: a potential gift of huge manouvering room for the Cons.]

KenS

These are definitely interesting times.

And it is appropriate and ironic that the discussion in the thread turned into another So.. what do we do now, despite the head between the legs bacward looking title and launch of the thread.

KenS

'Interesting times' always include and are even built around hazards.

But the hazards are no different than they were in the sleepwalking robo-march we were on up until a month ago- with no end in sight.... and a depressing smothering of hope when you let yourself think too much. 

Now we can breathe.

knownothing knownothing's picture

I think this is great news. The Libs were never gonna side with us anyway. Now the Tories have no excuses. Canada will be so sick of the Tories in another 4 years. Our job will be to act professionally as the Official Opposition and build towards the next election. There were many seats that we lost by small margins and with more of the Lib vote we could have won.

 

Cheer Up Folks!

Incorrect

KenS wrote:

That plan went out the door by 2007. Replaced by manipilute shamelessly; make change while flying under the radar; boil the frog slowly and steadily.

Don't kid yourself. They will turn up the burner to maximum now, boil the frog, then walk away as the water evaporates. They know that they may not be around forever, and they have to accomplish as much as they can in a limited time. They are not Canada's traditionally governing party, and never will be. They know this better than you or I. 

Would you describe their one hundred day time limit on scrapping the per vote subsisdy as a slow and incremental approach? The only reason it's being phased in is to avoid disrupting their own party finances, not out of any consideration for public opinion or good governance. The only reason they have been somewhat cautious thus far is because they were a minority in parliament. Even then, the disrespect for the public, it's elected representatives, and government officials was disturbing, to say the least. Now with an unrestrained majority they will be about as conciliatory as a pit bull off of it's leash. 

Slumberjack

The liberals were effective in opposition with their rat pack tactics during the late 80s and early 90s.  Something along those lines is now required of the new official opposition.  The NDP success can be attributed to several things.  Aside from having many dedicated and otherwise thoughtful and sincere shoulders applied to the wheel, the party itself was at least able to present to the public a facade of difference from the other two opponents.  A debatable point of contention here I'm sure.  The years ahead will undoubtedly be a tough slog against a government that brooks no compromise or reason, but for those who bring their honestly held leftist political leanings toward the center out of a desperate sense of hope, now would also be the time to begin digging in, to renew in the face of the oncoming storm a non-negotiable set of core values so that come four years down the road, when the public is once again called upon to take stock of their circumstances, instead of a facade they will be looking at something markedly different and refreshing, something of substance and depth.  The right can flatter themselves to their heart's content in the meantime, oblivious to the fact that every one of their actions going forward will render them ever the more despicable in the eyes of the 60 percent who voted against them.  For the left, now is not the time to lose ones nerve, when considering that the conservatives are set to return to their agenda in full force.  The situation is excellent because they've been provided with just enough rope.

knownothing knownothing's picture

I agree. If we start now we can actually win this one next time!

janfromthebruce

Morning all - yawn. I hope the liberal backroom "strategic voting sites" take a good hard look at themselves and "take responsibility" for their Conservative majority results. Funny, but I was wondering how they will spin it next time out because from what I saw in election night results, the number 2 to the Conservative winner was ORANGE. So by using their perverse strategy of backing the 2nd strongest in each riding should mean next time, that they recommend voting Orange, orange, orange.

 

However, we know that won't happen and they will try to rejig it to again vote Liberal. I really do hope that they go up in flames and eat humble pie - Alice Klein are you listening? Because, and make no mistake, in my riding in Huron-Bruce, Grant Robertson NDP came a strong 2nd place showing and if the dim minds in "project democracy" (aka votefortheenvironment, aka liberal hacks) had actually done some real ground work, they would have known as pundit's guide showed, it was a Con/NDP race. Too bad, because Grant was heads & tails above the Conservative Lobb & no name Liberal who could not win a municipal election and inside Liberals did not support. 

 

Now moving onto Bob Rae. Remember it was Liberal's who started the meme of Bob Rae govt as a disaster to keep the Liberals getting elected both provincially and federally. It didn't matter that Bob became a Liberal. But because he is there in the flesh, he is a most wonderful target and reminder. Bob needs to retire!

And the NDP did their part in pushing back the Conservatives but from what I saw, it was the blue Liberals who handed the Cons their majority.

For now, this is what I am thinking

 

And thank you Jack Layton and the NDP TEAM!

josh

Talk about chutzpah.  Blue Liberals in Ontario going with the Cons gave Harper his majority, but it's the NDP's fault.  If the NDP had just gotten out of the way and let the party that won less than 19% have a clear shot, everything would have turned out rosy.

Incorrect

As I said earlier, the NDP has to prevent another vote splitting disaster as occured on May 2nd. The best way to do this is to occupy the center ground, if only as a temporary tactical move. This will probably not be too much of a challenge, as the Conservatives will be so far to the right that any point on the spectrum left of them will be comfortable for most Canadians. Once ensconced in the center, the NDP can shift positions for tactical reasons as required, closing the entrance door on the Liberals as they make their inevitable attempt to reoccupy the center.  The Liberals have to be killed off without mercy, and their survivors scattered to the left and right. It sounds harsh, but that is the only way to prevent the NDP from falling back to it's traditional "third party" status. 

George Victor

The NDP will have to have an economic strategy in the face of the "fiscally responsible" avalanche about to descend on us.

And slumberjack, I never thought the day would come, but I have to wholeheartedly agree with your summation of the situation. Bravo.

takeitslowly

Ontario is fucked, Toronto is fucked. I live in hell and it will stay that way for the next 4 years. This is what living with abuse and bullying looks like, "my friends".

JeffWells

Ontario Liberals voted strategically, for the Conservatives. Thank God there will be a real opposition to confront Harper with an authentic, alternative vision for the country.

edmundoconnor

Malcolm wrote:

Pundit's Guide will be collating a list of constituencies where the "strategic" voting fraud artists recommended voting Liberal - and helped deliver the seats to the Conservatives.

If you weren't in Saskatchewan, Malcolm, I'd suggest we both go down to NOW's offices, and hurl Alice Klein into Lake Ontario.

HumbleOne

I am not afraid of a Con majority.  We have seen the worst of Con policy during the minority years with the Lib support in the house.  Now Gun register is gone, Supply mangement is gone, and 2 dollar per vote policy is gone.  I support all 3 but its not the end of the world if Con get rid of those items.  The worst thing is that the Con will stuck up the senate with Con lackeys. The rest can be reversed in 4 years if people want it. 

Policywonk

Slumberjack wrote:

The liberals were effective in opposition with their rat pack tactics during the late 80s and early 90s.  Something along those lines is now required of the new official opposition.  The NDP success can be attributed to several things.  Aside from having many dedicated and otherwise thoughtful and sincere shoulders applied to the wheel, the party itself was at least able to present to the public a facade of difference from the other two opponents.  A debatable point of contention here I'm sure.  The years ahead will undoubtedly be a tough slog against a government that brooks no compromise or reason, but for those who bring their honestly held leftist political leanings toward the center out of a desperate sense of hope, now would also be the time to begin digging in, to renew in the face of the oncoming storm a non-negotiable set of core values so that come four years down the road, when the public is once again called upon to take stock of their circumstances, instead of a facade they will be looking at something markedly different and refreshing, something of substance and depth.  The right can flatter themselves to their heart's content in the meantime, oblivious to the fact that every one of their actions going forward will render them ever the more despicable in the eyes of the 60 percent who voted against them.  For the left, now is not the time to lose ones nerve, when considering that the conservatives are set to return to their agenda in full force.  The situation is excellent because they've been provided with just enough rope.

We have a much larger opposition than the Liberals in 1984-1988 and somewhat larger than that in 1988-1993, and for that reason should be even more effective.

Policywonk

HumbleOne wrote:

I am not afraid of a Con majority.  We have seen the worst of Con policy during the minority years with the Lib support in the house.  Now Gun register is gone, Supply mangement is gone, and 2 dollar per vote policy is gone.  I support all 3 but its not the end of the world if Con get rid of those items.  The worst thing is that the Con will stuck up the senate with Con lackeys. The rest can be reversed in 4 years if people want it. 

It will be interesting to see if the Conservatives proceed with Senate reform. Somehow I don't think they will reform it in a way we will like though.

Uncle John

It was the prospect of an NDP government that caused the Blue Liberals to vote Tory.

It was a strategic vote against the NDP.

I told one of my friends it was looking like an NDP government was possible and he went out to vote for the first time in his life.

He said he was voting out of fear.

He was yelling at everyone he could to vote Conservative.

Personally, I was not afraid of an NDP government and I was actually quite sanguine about it. Socialism simply would not be allowed in Canada. An NDP government would not be much different than the Liberals.

I also knew that voting Tory would send an NDP member to the HoC, as otherwise I would probably have gone Liberal. And B-EY went NDP.

If they don't get exactly what they want, Quebec will leave the NDP and the NDP will be crushed. Quebec will drop you like a hot potato if you are not serving their interests. All the time.

Eventually, Canada will get tired of the Conservatives. They will need a party to replace them. A strongly federalist and market-oriented party people can vote for.

And that party will be the Liberals.

Slumberjack

Quote:
We have a much larger opposition than the Liberals in 1984-1988 and somewhat larger than that in 1988-1993, and for that reason should be even more effective.

You won't be if the gains achieved amount to nothing more than a predominantly centrist reincarnation from a liberal stiff.  People appear to have grown weary of politics which stand for nothing and wind up satisifying no one.  Even the liberals might eventually figure that one out.

HumbleOne

The reforms in the Senate will not likely be in my taste.  But the Reform party policy of a triple e senate is not likely.  I cannot imagine that Ontario, Quebec will ever agree to equal anything that does that reflect the fact that they hold more than 50% of the population. No equal senate.

Uncle John

Senate Abolition is a reasonable compromise to EEE people. The NDP and the Cons may actually be able to bargain on this.

KenS

janfromthebruce wrote:

I hope the liberal backroom "strategic voting sites" take a good hard look at themselves and "take responsibility" for their Conservative majority results.

Are you kidding?

We're just too stubborn, partisan or whatever to see the truth.

Their answers fit all circumstances.

Sean in Ottawa

Consider this:

There are three important next questions.

1) If the NDP had not been out there, would those votes have gone all Liberal? Would those who voted for the Cons have voted Liberal had the NDP not scared them? Really? I think head-to-head the Liberals would have lost without the NDP. We would have a majority Con government anyway. The Cons would have beaten either of these parties.

2) Why do so many feel that way? Is it possible that this is not so much about political parties but the political culture and the monopoly of right wing ideology in mainstream thought? If that is the case, then not in the political parties but in the political culture we must find a strategy. It must be evidence-based, clear headed, accessible. There ought to be a plan that includes more than one opposition party. I spoke about the NDP, Liberals and BQ running ads about the Cons attacks on democracy together-- That should have happened and some cooperation should now be undertaken with them and the Greens to advance an opposition to the Cons. We disagree on the solutions but can agree on the opposition and there is more credibility where we find agreement.

3) The NDP should reevaluate opposition to a merger with the Liberals and Greens and come out and propose it. Before the NDP would have been eaten whole. Before it would have been a merger with a right wing party. Now things are very different. People need to recognize what has already happened-- the right wing of the Liberal party walked away and merged with the Cons. What is left now is no further right than the right of the NDP. A merger is the only sensible solution now. The party can merge with a specific more left caucus but it needs to become big enough to govern and will not if it is battling a rump of left Liberals with the remainder having moved to the Cons. The bulk of Green supporters already support most NDP policies and think their party is closer than it is. Elizabeth May should be approached to join. This does not have to be permanent. There will be room for three parties once there is a win by a merged entity and PR implemented. Not until then. The merger could be proposed as an eight-year commitment-- to provide opposition to the current government and create a replacement and govern for 4 years. If the people of Canada will not elect a merged coalition with a good plan that includes PR, over the Cons after another 4 years then we need to make another conclusion. Canada is a very right-wing country ideologically. For now I am not so sure and faced with that choice I think we could replace the Cons and implement a program. Split like this the Cons could govern for decades.

Remember this -- the bulk of the right wing Liberals, the MPs, the candidates and their supporters are all gone. Time to recognize what this means and the challenges and opportunities that are before us.

Hunky_Monkey

Erase the Liberal Party from the map last night and we'd still have a Conservative majority.  Pretty simplistic to assume the "60%" of people who didn't vote for the Conservatives would automatically do the same if given two choices between the centre-right and centre-left.

Basement Dweller

We should keep the HoC as is, but make the Senate proportional rep.

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

Sean in Ottawa - While I agree with much of what you have said, I don't think you've taken a close look at which Liberal MPs were re-elected. Many are from the rightwing of the party.

ghoris

I dunno, LTJ. Most of the socially-conservative, pro-life Liberals in Scarborough and Mississauga went down in flames yesterday (John McKay and Jim Karygiannis being the only survivors).

I will agree with you that there aren't too many obvious lefties left (Hedy Fry and Carolyn Bennett are the only ones that really spring to mind), and there are still lots of right-wingers around (McCallum, Brison, etc), but I wouldn't necessarily associate, for example, most of the remaining MPs (particularly the Atlantic MPs) with the "right-wing" of the party. I stand to be corrected, however.

gyor

There is not that many big names left in liberal party so it is hard to tell. Rae is not a progressive but he likes to tell himself he is. He might even believe it. Justin I believe is a lefty. His dad used to be a dipper once upon a time. Dominic Leblanc I don't really know, but he appears to be to open to the possiblity of a merger. Remember that if merger talks happen, even if it some type of temperary merger happens I expect the Scott Brisons to flee to harper.

Of course if the liberal leadership race invovles such a discussion and the Liberals rejected it could be the final nail in the liberal coffin.

ghoris

gyor wrote:
Remember that if merger talks happen, even if it some type of temperary merger happens I expect the Scott Brisons to flee to harper. 

Possible, but I think the Ontario results demonstrate that a good chunk of them have already left.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

I say get rid of the Senate. We never needed it.

We commoners can decide things for ourselves without the help of the aristocracy.

@knownothing:

Your comment is right on!

knownothing knownothing's picture

The National just had a great special on the NDP. I think they are finally coming around. Brian Topp is good on TV.

 

Arthur Cramer: We should be able to pressure Harper enough on the Senate to make it at least elected so that he will have to do it or look bad to his base

Wat Tyler

gyor wrote:
There is not that many big names left in liberal party so it is hard to tell. Rae is not a progressive but he likes to tell himself he is. He might even believe it. Justin I believe is a lefty. His dad used to be a dipper once upon a time. Dominic Leblanc I don't really know, but he appears to be to open to the possiblity of a merger. Remember that if merger talks happen, even if it some type of temperary merger happens I expect the Scott Brisons to flee to harper. Of course if the liberal leadership race invovles such a discussion and the Liberals rejected it could be the final nail in the liberal coffin.

We have to remember that the Alliance and PC's were only merged through dirty tricks i.e. McKay going back on his promise not to merge.

Would someone in the Liberals be that two-faced?  And if there was such a quisling, would the NDP want to deal with them?

Merging on the left may just be a case of the Liberals gradually withering away.

 

adma

One thing a lot of people (esp. unite-the-lefters) may be forgetting: the NDP in and of themselves might have gotten more votes still, even from Tory-vote-parking Liberals, had the Orange Wave not emerged as a mid-campaign fluke.  At least outside of Quebec, there was still a lot of uncertainty because of the NDP being persistently framed by the media as third/fourth-party marginalia--it wasn't a fear of the Socialist Hordes so much as it was a vestigial fear of underprepared incompetence that led to voters' cold feet...

klexo

adma wrote:

a vestigial fear of underprepared incompetence that led to voters' cold feet...

well put. 4 years in opposition should help with this. 

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