Ghomeshi Trial Begins

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Ward

Sorry don't know what mra means..I don't like seeing anyone get hurt. I also don't like seeing people afraid of losing their freedom...and having to deal with a future of being labeled a criminal due to their lack of wisdom. It's the justice system I have a problem  with...I believe ordinary folks can do a better job at making things right..not cops and lawyers and judges...That's  just me though.

6079_Smith_W

From a magical information source called google:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men%27s_rights_movement

 

Ward

No ...gosh no

Ward

Like woody Allen says...wouldn't  belong to a group that would have someone like me as member 

pookie

Oh boy.

 

Ward

?

voice of the damned

Ward wrote:

Like woody Allen says...wouldn't  belong to a group that would have someone like me as member 

That's usually attributed to Groucho Marx.

6079_Smith_W

Know what Ward?

You just apologized for not reading up.  And while most of us like to give the benefit of the doubt, this has not been a pleasant thread to be in given all the trolling that has been going on. Again, if you took the 20 minutes or so it would take to read it you'd be up to speed on that and a few other things.

I am fine with conversation and revisiting stuff for the benefit of new people. But it is a two-way street, and I am starting to not be so patient with this back-and-forth that is happening here.

I don't like being played for a fool. And speaking just for myself, I am a bit short of temper on this particular subject.

 

Ward

Ok..well I'm working off a phone with a bad connection...and I guess I've allowed myself to be caught up in a philosophical debate about sex,violence,crime and  the states role in all of this. I have essentially only an instinctive take on it all...guess I'm over my head..apologies to groucho.

Wish I was 20 again ..I'd be shaking my head at myself.

 

voice of the damned

Ward wrote:
apologies to groucho.

I'm sure he'd be cool with it. The guy gets quoted enough that he's likely able to sustain one sincere misattribution.

Rev Pesky

Misfit wrote:
...The fact that these women came foreword to testify means that something happened to them in a very negative way. I hate it how people are trivializing violence.

Actually the fact that they came forward means nothing in itself.

Devogenes

Rev Pesky wrote:

Misfit wrote:
...The fact that these women came foreword to testify means that something happened to them in a very negative way. I hate it how people are trivializing violence.

Actually the fact that they came forward means nothing in itself.

That's preposterous. Every woman knows that the public abuse suffered by these three witnesses is exactly the kind of bullshit that survivors who go to court have to face. Why do you think no one wanted to be named? De Coutere should be praised for having the courage to come forward and put her name to it. Every survivor knows that they will be revictimized. That is a big part of why rape and sexual assault are so dramatically under-reported. And yet still this bullshit myth about false reports. And yet still the always predictable accusation that the survivors are "making it up" for some mysterious personal gain.

Oh yes indeed! Just look how much better De Coutere's life is now that she's been involved in this case! I can't wait until I have an opportunity to reap those benefits myself, how bout you?

How many women have to come forward to match the word of one man? There were 7 women who made allegations against Ghomeshi. Seven! How often do you have 7 different allegations against someone? People get sent to prison all the time for crimes that had one witness. But not for sexual assault! Never for sexual assault, not even when you have 7 witnesses who were the actual victims! More than 50 women have accusesd Cosby and still he is proclaimed innocent.

Devogenes

-----

Oops, double post.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Rev Pesky wrote:

Misfit wrote:
...The fact that these women came foreword to testify means that something happened to them in a very negative way. I hate it how people are trivializing violence.

Actually the fact that they came forward means nothing in itself.

The fact that one person comes forward means very little. The fact that dozens of women have spoken out but only a few would subject themselves to our "justice" system says it all.

6079_Smith_W

Exactly.

The first witness made a statement afterwards pointing out that she didn't go to the police earlier because she "didn't want to deal with this", and urged victims to not stay silent.

It is a difficult and brave, and sadly, often a fruitless effort to make.

 

 

Pondering

Ward wrote:

I agree..

However had the experience of the victims in this case turned out to be a more positive one...would the state still have some say in the matter?

Yes. That is why police lay charges in cases of domestic abuse.

Ward wrote:

Apologies for not reading though the thread...I think this whole business is making me feel a little awkward...I had considered ghomeshi and Lucy to be canadian talents worthy of approval ..now it's all been thrown up in the air.

Why? What have you got against Lucy? Not virginal enough for you?

Ward wrote:

Sorry don't know what mra means..I don't like seeing anyone get hurt. I also don't like seeing people afraid of losing their freedom...and having to deal with a future of being labeled a criminal due to their lack of wisdom. It's the justice system I have a problem  with...I believe ordinary folks can do a better job at making things right..not cops and lawyers and judges...That's  just me though.

Sucker punching someone in the head while you are kissing them is criminal not just lack of wisdom.

So if someone robs you you would just want to have a chat with them and not involve the police.

Ward

However...you could argue that the fact that that one didn't come forth immediately. ..10+ years ago ...in fact ended up subjecting others to unnecessary violence.

Pondering

Ward wrote:

However...you could argue that the fact that that one didn't come forth immediately. ..10+ years ago ...in fact ended up subjecting others to unnecessary violence.

No, the responsibility for a crime rests with the criminal, always, never with the victim.

It is true that sometimes if a victim comes forward they can protect others. In this very case the women that came forward have spared many more women who would have been Ghomeshi's victims however it is not their responsibility to do so. They didn't subject anyone to violence. Ghomeshi did that.

quizzical

you're wrong. you couldn't argue.

the only person subjecting anyone to violence is the perpetraitor of the acts of violence.

stop fking blaiming the victims ffs.

Ward

I disagree...it's every citizens responsibility to not provide coverage to criminals.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Ward wrote:

I disagree...it's every citizens responsibility to not provide coverage to criminals.

As a survivor of abuse who said nothing for decades your comments are very triggering. Yes I fell very fucking guilty that I didn't have the fucking courage to stand up immediately. So now if your done blaming me please fuck off.

Ward

Life is abusive...we are all victims...none of us get a free pass.

Ward

Or maybe we all should

6079_Smith_W

Thanks for outing yourself Ward. It means I can stop wasting time and energy on this.

Despite what you say, victims who are too scared to come forward are not responsible for the actions of perpetrators. And that goes double for sexual assault cases where accusers are raked over the coals, have their personal lives opened to the public, and are treated like they are the guilty ones.

On another note, You have been here since 2006, eh?

 

quizzical

so what are ya saying because life is abusive we should just let it keep happening when people want to assault us?

no one who has been victimized is providing coverage to anyone except themselves.

fuck off.

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Ward wrote:

Life is abusive...we are all victims...none of us get a free pass.

Sorry I think I was not clear enough in my last post. Fuck off asshole. Crawl back under the rock you crawled out from you lizard. One of the few places where an intelligent conversation about abuse can take place and you want to shit in it. I love how you refuse to read any articles and then spew venom.

Ward

I've been on this forum for years because I believe this is the place where difficult questions are talked about by intelligent and passionate folks such as yourself.... 

 

6079_Smith_W

It's our fault. Right.

at least you could do us the favour of cutting to the chase rather than being coy about it with this 20 questions bullshit.

you want passion? Well you will excuse me if I try to not be rude.

 

 

 

 

Ward

Sorry that's just my uneducated method of trying to be heard... and trying to listen....

quizzical

if you admit to being "uneducated" about this then why would you want to be heard?

listening = shutting the fuck up

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

If you're uneducated on the subject, Ward, I recommend reading the links in this thread. That should get you up to speed.

Ward

I need a recap of my offensive perspectives...I thought I was just forwarding the notion that sex  and criminality (in the adult context) is big trouble.

quizzical

well there's another wrong notion.

 

Ward

Sex and criminality is not big trouble?

Misfit Misfit's picture

To all the assholes on this thread, all I can say is that karma can be quite nasty and so unfortunate.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Ward wrote:

I've been on this forum for years because I believe this is the place where difficult questions are talked about by intelligent and passionate folks such as yourself.... 

You told me that I had an obligation to stand up to abuse so I was just taking your advice. When some one tells you your words are triggering in a thread on sexual abuse maybe you need to google the term and educate yourself. Although I suspect you are just being willfully blind and deliberately nasty.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Ward wrote:

I need a recap of my offensive perspectives...I thought I was just forwarding the notion that sex  and criminality (in the adult context) is big trouble.

Ward: If you READ THE LINKS in this thread, much of this will be clearer.

However, in short - suggesting that the victims of abuse responsible for bringing perpetrators to justice is deeply offensive. Don't do that. When the cost to the victim is such that they're not willing to come forward, then we need to look at the system. No one should be required to self-immolate for the greater good.

Also, Woody Allen had a sexual relationship with his partner's underaged daughter and has been accused of sexually assaulting another daughter. Quoting him in a sex abuse thread is inflammatory. For heaven's sake, use a little google fu if you aren't sure why people are getting offended.

Another tip: Instead of getting defensive, DROP THE TOPIC NOW. You will only dig yourself deeper. Just leave it.

Ward

I get it..I'm just anticipating that the courts are going to find him not guilty. ..so who am I to argue with that.

6079_Smith_W

Ward wrote:

I need a recap of my offensive perspectives..

No you don't. You know exactly what you are doing. 

"offensive perspectives" give me a fucking break.

 

Pondering

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Ward wrote:

I've been on this forum for years because I believe this is the place where difficult questions are talked about by intelligent and passionate folks such as yourself.... 

You told me that I had an obligation to stand up to abuse so I was just taking your advice. When some one tells you your words are triggering in a thread on sexual abuse maybe you need to google the term and educate yourself. Although I suspect you are just being willfully blind and deliberately nasty.

I need a like button.

6079_Smith_W

No Ward, I don't think anyone is expecting a miracle, and you aren't an idiot, so I think you know that isn't why you are pissing people off.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ghomeshi-trial-crown-police-1.3444776

Quote:

n the country, according to Statistics Canada, aside from attempted murder. The latest figures show that of the small number of cases that make it to trial, about 45 per cent result in a conviction. A 2012 study found that for every 1,000 sexual assaults, only about 33 are reported, 12 result in charges and six go to trial.

"The defence, like with every criminal case, has the best chance of winning," Lerner says. "But in the end, the witnesses were not contradicted that they were assaulted, they were not shaken [into saying] that they did consent. They tried to offer explanation for how they were acting afterwards."

Rosenthal, however, says that if the witness testimony was as "inconsistent as it's been reported, I think it's very difficult for any judge to be satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt."

 

Pondering

Edit - Sorry, I missed putting in the link. - here it is http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/svea-vikander/2016/02/day-12-jian-ghomes...

This is incident number fifteen.

It was 2003. I was 17 and at a show for some band at some Western Canada music festival. ..

I had always wanted to crowd surf. 

I imagined it as a quasi-spiritual experience. What could be better than hundreds of people supporting your weight as you float above them, buoyed by their collective will? What better hallmark of surrender than to throw oneself onto the crowd?

Somebody else threw themselves first. I went second.

It could have been worse. I didn't, for example, fall flat on the floor. But everybody grabbed my nether regions. Like, real grabs. Hard grabs, getting right in there. 

I wanted down right away but had to wait until the crowd passed me to the back of the concert venue.

After being groped by what felt like a hundred men I was deposited at the feet of Strombo himself. I was a bit shaken up but celebrity is celebrity and I can be awfully charming after I've been assaulted. I introduced myself and we shook hands. He is known for being very polite.

***

I assumed that this was just what happened when women crowdsurfed. I figured it was one of the many hard truths I was learning about life and the restrictions of being a woman. At least, having done it once, I figured, I knew not to do it again.

It wasn't until more than a decade later, on hearing about an incident in which Aaron Lewis, lead singer of Staind, stopped his live show to berate audience members for "molesting" a crowdsurfing teenaged girl that I realized that this experience wasn't...inevitable. Pre-ordained. Part of the great Chain of Being. That I wasn't just a dumb kid who had put herself at risk (I was!) but also that I should and perhaps someday could be able to trust men to do the crowd-surfing thing without trying to insert themselves into my body.

....

"Listen up you fucking assholes, that fucking girl over right there is like 15 fucking years old and you fucking pieces of shit are molesting her while she's on the fucking crowd....You should all be fucking beaten down by everyone around you for being fucking pieces of shit....If I fucking see that shit again I swear to God I will point you out in the crowd and have everyone around you beat your fucking ass."

And apparently (you can't see it in the video), he goes on to say, "Now, girls, feel free to crowd-surf safely."

I knew that I was unhappy with what had happened. I knew I regretted going on stage and regretted throwing myself onto the crowd. I didn't know that I had been molested until someone else told me.....

We're socialized to think that this kind of uncomfortable, difficult event is just the everyday cost of being female. That part of being a woman is knowing how to "handle yourself" in these situations: how to walk that fine line between exerting enough pressure on the man to stop his behavior but not so much that the situation gets worse. When someone waltzes in and says, "Nope, that's not only unnecessary and unethical, it's also illegal and it is described by words that you previously associated with the evening news" it can throw you for a tailspin. It's like having grown up with an undiagnosed medical disorder and suddenly meeting someone else with the same thing, and they have a name for it.

quizzical

Ward wrote:
I get it..I'm just anticipating that the courts are going to find him not guilty. ..so who am I to argue with that.

 

what you want is to try and get a last kick in.

and no you don't get it. even if the judge says acquited doesn't mean he's not guilty as fuck.

lagatta

Like Michael Bryant. Because being an entitled macho prick and being a rich guy indulging in vehicular homicide against a scruffy soul are acceptable behaviour.

Remember that Darcy was also not a "good victim". Media pundits said that cycling activists should have chosen another "poster boy". Nobody chose him; Bryant killed him.

Paladin1

6079_Smith_W wrote:

 

Applicable and accurate.

Ward
Ward
Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Go home, Ward, you're drunk.

MegB

Ward, you need to stay out of this thread. Failure to do so will result in your being suspended indefinitely.

mark_alfred

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