Brexit 2

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josh

How easy it is to forget the history of the EU and its purpose.  How tragic it is to see supposed democratic leftists so disdainful of democracy. 

NorthReport

The Observer view on the European elections

Brexit is the most important question facing the UK for decades and at last voters have an opportunity, albeit imperfect, to deliver a verdict. Labour has backed its anti-Brexit voters into a corner. We urge them not to vote Labour on Thursday, but to use their ballot to make clear to Corbyn that if he does anything to facilitate Brexit in the coming months, it won’t be in their name.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/19/observer-view-on-the-european-elections-dont-trust-labour-vote-for-a-remain-candidate

NDPP

Eurozone Horror Story Continues...

https://braveneweurope.com/bill-mitchell-eurozone-horror-story-continues

"The Eurozone is crawling along the growth gutter, mass unemployment is still at grossly elevated levels, poverty rates have risen, local community services are degraded, essential public infrastructure is in a growing state of disrepair, the banking system is not far from zombie status and we celebrate government action that is deliberately creating this dystopia?"

NorthReport

 

 

We still haven’t acknowledged the overwhelming whiteness of Brexit

It isn’t just a moral issue – it would be a tactical mistake to exclude such a significant proportion of voters. A network of politically engaged Bame activists exists. We need to appeal to them

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-peoples-vote-diversity-white-march-bame-diversity-ofoc-politics-a8921581.html

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

NorthReport wrote:

Thank goodness!

How easy it is to forget Europe's history.

Of all the ideas that have come out of the UK in the last 50 years Brexit must be the dumbest one of all. How tragic for the people living in the UK to be going through this nonsense. The sooner Brexit is dead and buried the better off all Europeans will be, except for maybe the one percenters who came up with this idea in the first place. And to be allying with the likes of Farage is unbelievable. Supporters of this monstrosity need to give their heads a serious shake. 

Nobody is allying with Farage.  Stop repeating that despicable lie.

NorthReport

Farage wants Brexit. May wants Brexit. They are Brexit allies. Sorry, but anyone who supports Brexit is allied with these people in relation to Brexit.  

NorthReport

Brexit: Remainers are angry too

 

The level of anger among Remain voters over Brexit should not be under-estimated, Sir Vince Cable has said.

The Lib Dem leader told the BBC that young people felt their future had been "taken away from them by a very narrow majority" in the 2016 referendum.

He suggested the Lib Dems would be "snapping at the heels" of the Brexit Party in Thursday's European election.

He conceded austerity cuts imposed by the Lib Dem-Tory coalition after 2010 contributed to the Brexit result.

"It was painful and unpleasant and there were political consequences," he said of decisions by that coalition government to cut public spending.

The Lib Dems are one of several parties contesting Thursday's elections which want the UK to remain in the EU.

Sir Vince said, while it was unfortunate that pro-Remain parties were competing against each other for votes, he expected the total number of those votes to end up "roughly similar" to that won by the Brexit Party and UKIP.

He said he expected the Lib Dems to get more votes than either Labour or the Conservatives and run Nigel Farage's Brexit Party a close second.

'Bitterly divided'

Sir Vince said the country was "bitterly divided" and, while he acknowledged the frustration of those who voted to leave the EU, he said those who wanted to remain were also rightly dismayed about the current situation.

"I understand how angry people are on both sides. There are some angry Leavers and there are some very angry Remainers too, particularly young people who feel their future has been taken away from them on the basis of a very narrow majority, where a significant majority of the electorate did not vote and many young people did not get an opportunity to vote."

The way to resolve the current stalemate, he suggested, would be to ask the public to confirm whether they still wanted to leave in another public vote.

This would not be a rerun of the 2016 referendum, he insisted, because the country was in a "totally different place" to three years ago.

"I'm afraid the referendum resolved nothing and we do have to go back to the people and ask if what is now on offer is what they really voted for.

"We have got completely different views about what Brexit actually means. What has emerged over the last three years is that the prospectus on which the Leave vote was achieved was based on a tissue of lies to be frank."

He said he was confident the public would vote to stay in the EU in another referendum and he would not be joining calls, at this stage, to stop Brexit in its tracks by revoking Article 50, which he described as the "extreme, nuclear option".

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48339921

NorthReport

Boris Johnson in No 10 will be a fitting finale to this dark decade

He’s likely to be prime minister by autumn. To defeat him at the polls, Labour must unambiguously back remain

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/20/boris-johnson-no-10-labour-back-remain

NorthReport

Chaos abounds!

Michael Heseltine: Conservative peer has party whip suspended after saying he will vote for Liberal Democrats

‘Endorsing candidates of another party is not compatible with taking the Conservative whip in parliament,’ says Tory spokesperson

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/michael-heseltine-tory-lib-dem-conservative-party-whip-eu-election-vote-a8922751.html#comments

josh

NorthReport wrote:

Farage wants Brexit. May wants Brexit. They are Brexit allies. Sorry, but anyone who supports Brexit is allied with these people in relation to Brexit.  

On this issue, rather be allied with them than the bankers who run the EU.

NorthReport

Wow, no bankers in the UK after Brexit. Just amazin'.

What a joke, as if bankers don't run things everywhere.

Kinda sad though to see you allied with the elite of the right-wingers in British society.

josh

Kind of sad to see you allied with the foremost anti-democratic neoliberal institution in the world.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DTcPAInYsQ0

NorthReport

It rarely works to though the baby out with the bathwater. 

Democratic legitimacy of the European Union

Liberal Democrat (ALDEMEP Chris Davies, says he has far more influence as a member of the European Parliament than he did as an opposition MP in the House of Commons. "Here I started to have an impact on day one", "And there has not been a month since when words I tabled did not end up in legislation."[19]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_legitimacy_of_the_European_Union

josh

No doubt.  Considering the number of LibDems usually in parliament.

NorthReport

Elections to the European Parliament

Elections to the European Parliament take place every five years by universal adult suffrage, and with more than 400 million people eligible to vote, it is considered one of the largest democratic elections in the world.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_to_the_European_Parliament

JKR

Regardless of what happens, I think EU countries like Sweden, Denmark, Finland, The Netherlands, Belgium, France, Germany, and Austria, will continue to be much more socialist than the UK. I think the right in the UK wants to turn the UK into the U.S. and they need Brexit to accomplish that goal.

NorthReport

Precisely!

That is why Labour should be 100% Remain. 

josh

NorthReport wrote:

Elections to the European Parliament

Elections to the European Parliament take place every five years by universal adult suffrage, and with more than 400 million people eligible to vote, it is considered one of the largest democratic elections in the world.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_to_the_European_Parliament

LOL.  It is a toothless tiger. A student council in a school has more power.

NorthReport

Brexit supporters need to keep asking themselves why would they be allying with the right-wingers, and not just UK right-wingers, but right-wingers from all over, including Canadian right-wingers. Something is not right here. Look at the people Brexiters are allying with:

Boris Johnson

Elizabeth May

Nigel Farage

Tommy Robinson

Jason Kenney

[hide]

Remember when British voters chose 'hope over fear' with Brexit, according to Jason Kenney?

http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/alberta-diary/2018/07/remember-when-british-voters-chose-hope-over-fear-brexit

  •  

 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Look at the people Brexiters are allying with

If someone agrees with me, it doesn't actually mean we're allies.

Are you out of ways to support Brexit on its own terms, so all that's left is pointing out that if you support Brexit, some bad people agree?

Lord forbid that, say, Marine Le Pen ever come out in favour of green electricity.  Then what shall we all do?

NorthReport

Of course they are allies in promoting Brexit!

cco

NorthReport wrote:

Kinda sad though to see you allied with the elite of the right-wingers in British society.

Cross-posting with Mr. Magoo: This is abuse of the transitive property all over again. If the only way you can defend your position is to say to your opponent "Look at the nasty people who agree with you!", your argument isn't very strong. Pope Francis believes in climate change and in protecting priests who rape children. That doesn't make all other environmentalists child molesters.

Pogo Pogo's picture

I get that politics makes strange bedfellows. But if the left Brexit assumes more socialism and the right Brexit hhassumes more capitalism somebody is wrong.  It is not just enough to say that you don't hold the same views as Nigel Farange, you also have to say why he is wrong.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
It is not just enough to say that you don't hold the same views as Nigel Farange, you also have to say why he is wrong.

Wrong to support it, or wrong about why he supports it?

TBH, I've never heard of this rule.  If I support the Green New Deal because I care about Gaia Mother Earth, but my friend supports it because he wants a job in green tech, do I have to say why he's wrong as well?  Where did this come from?

NorthReport

Bad analogy as green electricity is not up for debate at least here, whereas with Brexit there is a difference of opinion about its pros and cons. 

 

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
Look at the people Brexiters are allying with

If someone agrees with me, it doesn't actually mean we're allies.

Are you out of ways to support Brexit on its own terms, so all that's left is pointing out that if you support Brexit, some bad people agree?

Lord forbid that, say, Marine Le Pen ever come out in favour of green electricity.  Then what shall we all do?

NorthReport

 

When all the right-wingers, racists, etc. support something I am supporting I would really question mydelf.   

The unity that has been created by the European Community, is far better than the wars we had before, and of course there are problems with any organization. Vance recently stated there were mistakes made about too much austerity so nothing is cast in stone. You work to improve them though as opposed to going back to bloodshed. And as well it is healthy to have another larger group to counterbalance the USA, China and Russia. The people that support Brexit remind me of the boy who brings his ball to the game and then wants to go home when his team is losing. The British were a superpower at one time, and some of them I suppose are missing the power they once had.  Times have changed, but the advantages of staying far outweigh the disadvantages.

cco wrote:
NorthReport wrote:

Kinda sad though to see you allied with the elite of the right-wingers in British society.

Cross-posting with Mr. Magoo: This is abuse of the transitive property all over again. If the only way you can defend your position is to say to your opponent "Look at the nasty people who agree with you!", your argument isn't very strong. Pope Francis believes in climate change and in protecting priests who rape children. That doesn't make all other environmentalists child molesters.

NorthReport

Very uplifting article

Brexit is a return to the 1930s politics of fear But Britain needs to face the future with bravery and curiosity 

British should be helping lead humanity into the future, not retreating into isolationism and suspicion

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/think/amp/ncna1003381

Pogo Pogo's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
It is not just enough to say that you don't hold the same views as Nigel Farange, you also have to say why he is wrong.

Wrong to support it, or wrong about why he supports it?

  Not why he supports it. But that his view of the result of Brexit is pretty starkly different than Josh's (using him as he has represented the left argument very clearly). I read Josh and Brexit is an opportunity for the working class to reclaim control of their country.  I then listen to a Gaslight Nation podcast and they say that there are plans to privatize the hospitals.  Two completely different takes on what Brexit is going to look like. Is it fair to ask Brexit supporters to state why their vision will win out?

josh

The unity that has been created by the European Community, is far better than the wars we had before

Oh FFS.  Talk about presenting a false choice.  And the common market was set up for economic reasons, not political.  The UK and Germany were each's largest trading partners before WWI and they still went to war.  Not to mention that the UK was not party of the common market for over a quarter of a century after WWII and guess what, there was no war.  It was another 20 years after that, and guess what, no war during that time.  The EU haa nothing to do with preventing war.  It's purpose is to prevent socialism and enshrine free market capitalism.

NDPP

"Superb interview with Costas Lapavitsas on the nonsensical remain and reform argument, shows left remainism is capitulation to capitalism and spells out the false capitalist 'internationalism' peddled by left remain is the opposite of workers internationalism."

https://twitter.com/EddieDempsey/status/1130753803219869696

 

'I'd Prefer Acid': Charity Boss Suspended After Vile Anti-Farage Tweet

https://twitter.com/labourleave/status/1130852952187367425

"The rising violence from Remain isn't surprising. Remain have spent three years whipping up hatred against Leavers. Calling for acid attacks now. Acid attacks..."

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

In Canada voters keep rejecting PR but then you look at an EU ballot in the Nederlands and it has 16 parties and 306 candidates and some people there think the complexity decreases the voter turn out.

NorthReport

I'm sure Farage is being bankrolled by millionaires to protect workers' rights. 

Brexit Party: EU opens investigation into Nigel Farage's lavish gifts from millionaire tycoon

European Parliament quaestor had urged investigation into £450,000 gifts

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-brexit-party-investigation-aaron-banks-eu-gifts-donations-funding-a8923961.html

NorthReport

Who is next, eh?

The future looks rosy in the UK's Brexit doesn't it!

British Steel on the brink with thousands of jobs at risk

https://www.ft.com/content/e11c8bee-7b94-11e9-81d2-f785092ab560

NorthReport

Not altogether a bad day, as even the Cons are beginning to see the light, and finally now the Prime Minister is discussing a Second Refendum.

May’s final effort to win backing falls flat as MPs reject ‘new' Brexit deal

Politicians from across the House shoot down repackaged offer in major blow to PM

But, after a stormy cabinet meeting in which a more generous proposed offer on a second referendum

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/21/may-offers-mps-vote-on-second-referendum-in-new-brexit-deal

NorthReport

But Sean O'Grady is not yet convinced.

Theresa May’s offer of a vote in parliament on a second Brexit referendum is a trap

This is in fact another one of her attempts to kill off a Final Say – and it won’t work

The point about a second referendum decision is that the moment has not yet come for one. Parliament, and especially the Conservative Party, is not yet ready to capitulate to reality – the realisation that parliament cannot make Brexit work, and will in the end have to return the issue to the people. The Tory Party is instead determined to stay in denial and waste yet more time on a leadership election, and packing Boris Johnson off to Brussels to “renegotiate” a deal that the EU say cannot and will not be rewritten. Mr Johnson may threaten to take the UK out of the EU with no deal, on WTO (World Trade Organisation) terms but everyone knows, including him, that parliament will not agree to such a thing.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/theresa-may-brexit-vote-withdrawal-agreement-second-referendum-a8924136.html

NorthReport

 

It is time for Mr Farage to come clean and rule out a coalition of hate with Mr Salvini and his gang of pro–Russian puppets. They are a threat to our security & our traditional values.

--------------------

 

https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1130933492970344449

https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

 

NorthReport
NDPP

"May now offering MPs second referendum if they vote for her colony against his government is just shameless. This whole stitch-up really is deplorable to watch unfold and will only increase resentment and alienation among Leave voters."

https://twitter.com/labourleave/status/1130857332747919360

For the real truth about the EU and Brexit, WATCH the excellent interview with former Syriza MP Costas Lapavitsas @ 81. 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Two completely different takes on what Brexit is going to look like. Is it fair to ask Brexit supporters to state why their vision will win out?

Not really.  Which version "wins" will be entirely dependent on what kind of government(s) the UK elects going forward.  If they want the privatized hospitals, vote for the right.  If they want fiscal and monetary freedoms, vote left.

To continue to use Josh's comments as the example, he doesn't seem to be promising the moon if Brexit goes through, so much as saying that some things people might wish for are simply impossible without Brexit.  So, maybe the government won't use its independence to change monetary policy, but while an EU member, it also won't because it cannot.

FWIW, by the way, while I read and nod a bit at what babblers like Josh or NDPP say re: Brexit, my own interest in it doesn't necessarily overlap theirs.  Had I been a UK voter at the time of the referendum, I'd have voted "Remain".  I support Brexit because that's what got voted for, and because I don't believe that a government should try to nullify the results of such a referendum except in the most extreme of circumstances -- and certainly not because "lots of you seem to want a do-over".

Of course what any of us think of Leaving or Remaining or a second referendum means even less than it did two years ago because at this point, if the UK doesn't leave the EU then for the next decade or two the betrayed Leavers will be electing far-right Euroskeptics who make Nigel Farage look like Tommy Douglas.  The price of Remaining, after all this, will be whatever trust and faith voters still have in government.

NorthReport

Have you ever heard right-wingers not complain?

—————-

‘No Brexit at all’

Music to my ears

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-politics-48357017

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
Two completely different takes on what Brexit is going to look like. Is it fair to ask Brexit supporters to state why their vision will win out?

Not really.  Which version "wins" will be entirely dependent on what kind of government(s) the UK elects going forward.  If they want the privatized hospitals, vote for the right.  If they want fiscal and monetary freedoms, vote left.

To continue to use Josh's comments as the example, he doesn't seem to be promising the moon if Brexit goes through, so much as saying that some things people might wish for are simply impossible without Brexit.  So, maybe the government won't use its independence to change monetary policy, but while an EU member, it also won't because it cannot.

FWIW, by the way, while I read and nod a bit at what babblers like Josh or NDPP say re: Brexit, my own interest in it doesn't necessarily overlap theirs.  Had I been a UK voter at the time of the referendum, I'd have voted "Remain".  I support Brexit because that's what got voted for, and because I don't believe that a government should try to nullify the results of such a referendum except in the most extreme of circumstances -- and certainly not because "lots of you seem to want a do-over".

Of course what any of us think of Leaving or Remaining or a second referendum means even less than it did two years ago because at this point, if the UK doesn't leave the EU then for the next decade or two the betrayed Leavers will be electing far-right Euroskeptics who make Nigel Farage look like Tommy Douglas.  The price of Remaining, after all this, will be whatever trust and faith voters still have in government.

I've never agreed more with Magoo.  IN fact, I'm not sure I've EVER agreed with Magoo before this.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

You need to check out some foodie threads!  Always some non-contentious stuff going on there.

"You like butter on corn?!?  I, too, like butter on corn!!"

Pogo Pogo's picture

I don't believe that referendums are the holy grail of democracy. What is more important is getting it right. Brexit as a campaign was a dry run for the 2016 US election complete with dirty money (Tony Banks), fake news and social media manipulation (Cambridge Analytica). Anything coming out of this obsenity cannot be good.

josh

You might have a point if it were not for the fact that the British public had been well acquainted with the pros and cons of the EU/common market for decades.

NDPP

"It must be an ongoing mystery to Remain how Japan, the US, China, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, India and many more survive at all outside the economic wasteland that is the EU with its low growth, extreme youth unemployment, disastrous currency..."

https://twitter.com/labourleave/status/1131138940952616960

JKR

NDPP wrote:

"It must be an ongoing mystery to Remain how Japan, the US, China, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, India and many more survive at all outside the economic wasteland that is the EU with its low growth, extreme youth unemployment, disastrous currency..."

https://twitter.com/labourleave/status/1131138940952616960

Is it a mystery that those countries are not European? Maybe the UK should move there island close to Manhattan? I’m sure Farage would love that.

NorthReport

If rumours alone for Brexit is disasterous for the pound, it's scary to think what would happen should Brexit actually occur, eh!

https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=USD&view=10Y

Pogo Pogo's picture

Of course in addition to Tony Banks and his dark money, hedge funds were some of the big financiers of Brexit only to make a bundle selling short on the British Pound.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-06-25/brexit-big-short-how-pollsters-helped-hedge-funds-beat-the-crash

NorthReport

Thanks for reminding us Pogo that Farage was a commodities trader. As you have said nothing good will come of this mess and I agree.

Brexit Party: EU opens investigation into Nigel Farage's lavish gifts from millionaire tycoon

European Parliament quaestor had urged investigation into £450,000 gifts

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-brexit-party-investigation-aaron-banks-eu-gifts-donations-funding-a8923961.html

NorthReport

When asked what the greatest thing about the EU was, he replied simply: "One word, peace.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/22/europe/jean-claude-juncker-interview-european-elections-intl/index.html

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