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NorthReport

Ukraine aligns with Moscow as EU summit failsAngela Merkel tells President Viktor Yanukovych 'we expected more' after he refuses to sign pact at summit in Lithuania

Viktor YanukovychViktor Yanukovych held secret talks with Vladimir a fortnight ago regarding the EU pact. Photograph: Mindaugas Kulbis/AP

 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/29/ukraine-yanukovych-moscow-e...

NorthReport

Yea, right!

 

 

Ukrainian President Yanukovych 'outraged' by violence

The BBC's David Stern says the Kiev protests attracted thousands despite the late hour

 

Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych says he is "deeply outraged" by events at opposition protests in Kiev.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25171534

NDPP

Ukraine Defends Is Sovereignty -  by Justin Raimondo

http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2013/12/01/ukraine-defends-its-sovere...

"Against the EU and the new coldwarriors..."

 

Ukraine: On The Edge - The Seven Minute Video Warning (and vid)

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-12-01/ukraine-edge-7-minute-video-sum...

"The following seven minutes of mayhem look eerily reminiscent of the violent preamble to the Middle East's recent coups or non-coups..."

NDPP

Putin: Kiev Protests Have Nothing To Do With Ukraine-EU Relations, Prepared Ahead of Elections

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-putin-riots-foreign-602/

"Russian President Vladimir Putin has said riots in Kiev have no direct relation to the Ukraine and EU deal, but rather an attempt by opposition to undermine the country's legitimate government.

'What is happening now is a little false start due to certain circumstances...This has all been prepared for the presidential election. And that these preparations, in my opinion, is an apparent fact for all objective observers,' Putin stressed."

 

CrossTalk: Winning Ukraine? (and vid)

http://rt.com/shows/crosstalk/ukraine-free-trade-eu-463/

"Why didn't Ukraine sign the free trade deal with the EU? Is this deal a recipe for economic suicide??

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Not RT news...

Protests show Putin the battle for Ukraine is not over

Quote:

Protests by hundreds of thousands of people in Ukraine against their leaders' U-turn over Europe have sent a warning to Vladimir Putin that the battle over the former Soviet republic's future is far from over.

For once, matters may be largely out of the Russian leader's hands: he appears to have little left in his political armory to woo Ukraine, especially if the protesters oust President Viktor Yanukovich or persuade him to change tack again.

There is no sign of Yanukovich quitting. But rallies by about 350,000 people this weekend, at times marred by clashes, have unleashed democratic forces which, for all his political calculations, Putin cannot control.

I went to a week long medieval event in Poland in 2012 where Russia and the Ukraine both had teams in the armored combat competition. I got to socalize with a bunch of them and you could tell there was allot of tension between the two sides. I got the impression they disliked each other for more than just team competitiveness reasons.

I’m pretty sure I now know why that was.      

NorthReport

Thank you.

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:

Not RT news...

 

NorthReport

Gwynne Dyer: Ukraine puts European Union deal on hold indefinitely

http://www.straight.com/news/540716/gwynne-dyer-ukraine-puts-european-un...

NDPP

Signs of Coup Attempt as Ukraine Protesters Besiege Government

http://nsnbc.me/2013/12/02/signs-of-coup-attempt-as-ukraine-protesters-b...

"...As the protests continue, it becomes increasingly evident that the hard core of those protesters who have stormed the government headquarters belong to the ultra nationalist and racist Svoboda (Freedom) party. The ultra nationalists have also been the main provocateurs behind the eruption of violent clashes between otherwise peaceful protesters and police, using among others bulldozers in attempts to break the police lines.

Political analyst and journalist Tony Cartalucci points out that western mainstream media carefully avoids reporting about the involvement of the ultra nationalists because doing so would lead the readers to websites like 'Unity of Nobility - De Kosherized News & Research Material,' which feature Svoboda in articles like, 'Ukrainian Nationalists have the Jewish rats shrieking..."

 

Globally Renowned Activist Collaborated with Stratfor

http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/12/03/globally-renowned-activist-collab...

"...OTPOR! was so successful that it was ushered into Ukraine to help manufacture regime change there in 2004, using the template applied originally in Serbia with $65 Million in cash from the US government.

'In much the same way as corporate front groups and astroturf groups recruit genuinely committed supporters, strategically useful social movements can politically dominate civil society when provided with the right resources (massive financial aid and professional backers)."

As well, a strange sort of 'ultra nationalism' that seeks to join that sinking ship of international bankster mafiosi the EU..

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

 

LOL between 00:30 and 00:43 there's a guy wearing a slavic style medieval helmet like the ones the Ukrainan and Russian teams wore. WTF?

NDPP

The Gates of Hell Open in Ukraine

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-01-021213.html

"European politicians and Ukrainian opposition parties have gone into overdrive to attempt yet another color-coded revolution in Kiev.."

NDPP

CrossTalk: Dividing Ukraine (and vid)

http://rt.com/shows/crosstalk/ukraine-second-orange-revolution-680/

"Are we witnessing a second Orange Revolution in Ukraine? Is it a zero-sum game for all parties involved?"

NorthReport

Ukraine's future in peril under President Yanukovych

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ukraine-needs-europes-help-agains...

NDPP

Defeated By the Taliban, Washington Decides to Take on Russia and China   -  by Paul Craig Roberts

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37032.htm

"The EU wants Ukraine to join so that Ukraine can be looted, like Latvia, Greece, Spain, Italy, Ireland and Portugal. What are the Ukrainian protests about?

 

Ukraine and the Bigger Picture of US and European Assault On Russia's Sphere of Influence  -  by Finian Cunningham

http://nsnbc.me/2013/12/06/ukraine-and-the-bigger-picture-of-us-and-euro...

"Given the destabilizing, predatory, role played by the EU towards Russia's neighbouring countries - aided and abetted by Washington and given the steady encirclement by the NATO military alliance around Russia's borders, one has to understand the recent turmoil in the Ukraine as part of a bigger geopolitical process..."

 

 

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

1. There are very many neutral observers who say that going for the current deal with the EU would be suicide for Ukraine. Negotiate for a better deal? By all means. But the EU has made basket cases of other countries. For example,  Bulgaria ... 20 years ago provided the majority of fruits and vegetables to Eastern Europe .. and now? They import tomatoes from Turkey. ugh. The EU is a very questionable sponsor.

 

2. How can people not see that foreign officials participating in Kievan rallies are interfering in Ukrainian internal affairs? I mean, it's so obvious. They would be deported, or arrested, anywhere else. The Ukrainian authorities have shown remarkable restraint, too much maybe.

 

NDPP

Neil Clark: 'EU Double Standards in Ukraine Absolutely Outrageous'

http://rt.com/op-edge/ukraine-protest-eu-hypocrisy-944/

"So double standards are absolutely glaring, to riot on the streets and demonstrate in Kiev is absolutely fine by the European Union, they encourage you, they incite you, but if you would do it in Turkey or Spain - no they don't."

 

IMF Sponsored 'Democracy' in the Ukraine

http://nsnbc.me/2013/12/10/imf-sponsored-democracy-ukraine/

"There is an ongoing and deliberate attempt by foreign powers to spearhead the destabilization of the Ukraine - including its state structure.

The mechanisms of interference are in some regards different to those of 2004."

NDPP

'Muddling and Meddling'? US, EU Politicians Plunge Deeper into Kiev Protest

http://rt.com/news/us-eu-ukraine-protest-062/

"Pro-EU protests in Kiev have been marked by western politicians' regular visits to the protesters camp, and their emotional condemnation of Ukraine's authorities.."

NDPP

George Galloway MP: Ukraine's Political Crisis (and vid)

http://www.presstv.com/Program/339744.html

"Ukraine has been hit with a wave of political unrest since late November when President Viktor Yankovych refused to sign a trade pact with the European Union..."

 

Is NATO's Trojan Horse Riding Toward The 'Ukraine Spring'?  -  by Dennis Kucinich

http://readersupportednews.org/news-section2/355-europe/20954-focus-is-n...

"...while the draft of the EU 'Association Agreement' is being sold as an economic boom for Ukrainian citizens, in reality it appears to be NATO's Trojan Horse: a massive expansion of NATO's military position in the region.

What's more, the Agreement occurs under the cover of nebulous economic promises for a beset population hungering for better wages. For NATO, the goal is expansion. The prize is access to a country that shares a 1,426-mile border with Russia..."

 

McCain Meets With Ukrainian Opposition, Backs Pro-EU Protests

http://rt.com/news/mccain-kiev-visit-protests-266/

"We believe that the future of Ukraine lies in Europe. We've met with government officials and with members of the opposition,' McCain told reporters. 'I look forward to visiting the square tomorrow and I am proud of what the people of Ukraine are doing, so they can restore democracy to their country.'

On Friday, US Democrats and Republican senators introduced a resolution that asks the US to consider the use of sanctions..."

 

NDP Calls For Protection of Democratic Rights in Ukraine

http://www.ndp.ca/news/ndp-calls-protection-democratic-rights-ukraine

"...The Canadian government should join our allies including the European Union and the United States in supporting efforts toward a political solution of the crisis."

ndp = no difference party

NDPP

Thousands of Ukrainians Stage Rival Rallies in Ukrainian Capital (and vid)

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/12/15/340142/pro-antigovt-demos-staged...

"The European Union has repeatedly made clear that the Association Agreement itself remains on the table, but that its terms cannot be renegotiated..."

 

Ukraine Protesters Continue To Press For EU Deal (and vid)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-protesters-continue-to-press-for-eu...

"America is with you, I am with you,' McCain to Ukraine protesters.

'We will become the slaves of Europe if we go into it,' said 43-year-old demonstrator Sergei Antonovich. 'Look at history'.

 

Canada To Send Election Monitors For Ukraine Byelection

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-to-send-election-monitors-for-ukr...

"We're committed to work with the people of Ukraine in its democratic development and that's a long-term commitment,' Baird told reporters Wednesday from Kyiv, the Ukraine capital, where violent protests were taking place.

Baird also met opposition officials and civil society representatives. Baird said he was asked to consider an international effort to impose sanctions..."

 

 

 

NDPP

West Targets Russia Via Ukraine  -  by Finian Cunningham

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/12/16/340344/west-targets-russia-via-...

"Wherever fruitcake US Senator John McCain turns up you can be sure that the agenda is regime change.

The unhinged, hawkish senator told the multitude: 'The destiny you seek lies in Europe. People of Ukraine, this is your moment. The Free World is with you; I am with you..."

and the government of Canada, the Libs and NDP too (see #17 above)

NDPP

Senator McCain, Interventionism's 'Energizer Bunny'  -   by Daniel McAdams

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37139.htm

"If there are US-backed groups anywhere seeking the overthrow of their government, you will find John McCain in their midst. He is the Energizer Bunny of interventionism.

Fresh off his trip to Libya, where he was granted an award by the military on the same day the Libyan parliament declared Sharia law, McCain was this weekend on the streets of Kiev..."

the Canadian political class is on the same page

NDPP

Mass Protests in Kiev: LIVE UPDATES (and vid)

http://rt.com/news/kiev-protests-integration-clashes-873/

"Ukrainian pro-EU rally has the nationalist Svoboda party as its major driving force and the loudest voice. RT's Aleksy Yaroshevsky has taken a closer look at the party's slogans to find out they are quite contrary to European values..."

NDPP

US NGO Uncovered in Ukraine Protests  - by F William Engdahl

http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2014/01/07/us-ngo-uncovered-in-ukraine-p...

"Ukrainians have found evidence of direct involvement of the Belgrade-US-financed training group CANVAS [OTPOR] behind the carefully orchestrated Kiev protests..."

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Yes NDPP, those huge crowds showed up only becouse the USA and Belgrade ordered them to do so and there's no chance people aren't happy with what's going on in thier country... Thats kind of like saying all the occupy protesters only showed up becouse the Canadian (outside) group Ad Busters ordered them to.

 

Slumberjack

All western NGO organizations that operate in other countries should be considered fronts for the respective intelligence services.

6079_Smith_W

I had the opportunity to be there briefly in the early 90s, bringing in medical supplies which were in terribly short supply. I guess that makes me one of your western agents too - even though it was a convoy organized by Humboldt University in East Berlin.

It was during one of the times when Russia had cut off natural gas, diesel and gasoline supplies, ostensibly for non-payment (odd since the majority of exports run through Ukraine) but really to starve them into submission. At that point it involved pressing them for control of the Black Sea fleet. I saw long lines for empty shops, and highways were filled with whole families hitchhiking with all their goods. The only people we saw enjoying the situation were mafia, with whom we had direct contact.

Yeah, good question. Why would anyone want to break up such a good relationship?

 

Slumberjack

I don't know.  Maybe Greek and Spanish citizens could shed some light on it from the perspective of their relationship with the European bloc.

6079_Smith_W

Not surprising, considering the opinion that their governments signed them on under false pretenses. And seeing as they don't seem to be going anywhere, and there is no mechanism to kick them out, it's more likely (as in, not much) that Germany would leave the EU to escape their debt.

As for offering advice, I certainly don't have any objection to them doing that, SJ.

How do you glean from that that the people of Ukraine should NOT have the same option to leave a bad deal?

Slumberjack

I don't think we should fail to analyze the intent of the western corporate media when it highlights internal opposition to the elected government's decision to take the Russian deal over that offered by the EU.  You probably didn't notice, but the anti-government protests that have rocked the EU in recent years has received very little coverage and analysis in the western media.  It doesn't fit with in as well with the narrative as other protests do.  On the other hand, it's true that no one needs to get bent out of shape when two capitalist entities, Russia and the EU, vie for the affections of a third Capitalist entity.  But there's the suggestion upthread that western sponsored NGO outfits are present in these countries merely to perform good deeds, which is simply not the case anymore, if it ever was.

6079_Smith_W

Really? I've actually heard a lot more about the unrest and financial trouble in Europe. This situation in Ukraine is hardly new, after all. It has been going on and off since independence. But what coverage and pointing out that things are also difficult elsewhere has to do with this I'm not sure.

As for western NGO's being spies, let me know when they poison any Ukrainian presidential candidates.

Not sure where this is going, and why? You do know that Russia hasn't been anti-capitalist for about 20 years now, right? In that sense there's not much difference than with Europe, except that things in Europe, while not perfect,  don't happen at the whim of one person to quite the same degree.

 

 

Slumberjack

6079_Smith_W wrote:
Not sure where this is going, and why? You do know that Russia hasn't been anti-capitalist for about 20 years now, right? In that sense there's not much difference than with Europe, except that things in Europe, while not perfect,  don't happen at the whim of one person to quite the same degree.

You've misread what I was saying.  I referred to Russia as Capitalistic.

6079_Smith_W

No, I got it, which is why I wonder at the assumptions about NGOs, and the contrast since, as I said, neither is anti capitalist. The most I suppose you could say is that one is more the enemy of the  presumed enemy (the U.S.) than the other. That doesn't mean it's the wisest choice.

And given the past relationship between Russia and Ukraine, ranging from Imperialist to occupation, there are plenty of reasons they might want to do something than put all their pysanky in one basket.

 

 

 

NDPP

Orange Revolution Redux in Ukraine? The US Should Stay Out Of This Fight  -  by Doug Bandow

http://www.forbes.com/sites/dougbandow/2014/01/13/orange-revolution-redu...

"After all, complained Nicolai Petro of the University of Rhode Island, the EU was 'attempting to force Ukraine to choose Europe over Russia rather than adopting a strategy that sould have allowed Ukraine to capitalize on its close cultural, religious and economic ties with Russia.'

In particular Brussels insisted that Kiev choose Europe's AA over Russia's CU, treating the fomer as 'a loyalty test' in Petro's words. Along with way the EU expected Kiev to make political changes and overturn what the government claimed was an independent court verdict.

Steinmeier criticized his European colleagues for not offering more, complaining that 'we presented a financial and economic aid package that lay far behind what was necessary to keep Ukraine competitive and permanently tie it economically to Europe.'

Of course, Washington goes not one hour, let along one day, without attempting to bribe or coerce another government to do something.

Western hypocrisy is breathtaking..."

NDPP

Teargas, Fire Smoke as Clashes Erupt Between Police and Protesters in Kiev (and vid)

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-clashes-protest-law-858/

"...Washington has threatened to impose sanctions against Ukraine as the White House calls on the authorities to 'de-escalate the situation by withdrawing riot police and beginning a dialogue with the opposition.

'The increasing tension in Ukraine is a direct consequence of the government failing to acknowledge the legitimate grievances of its people', National Security Council spokeswoman Caitlin Hayden said in a statement.

'The US will continue to consider additional steps - including sanctions - in response to the use of violence' Hayden added..."

 

A Tale of Two Protests  - by Tony Cartalucci

http://landdestroyer.blogspot.ca/2014/01/a-tale-of-two-protests-ukraine-...

"Ukraine and Thailand"

 

NDP Demands Conservatives Condemn Repressive Ukrainian Law

http://www.ndp.ca/news/ndp-demands-conservatives-condemn-repressive-ukra...

"The Conservatives must join New Democrats in supporting the democratic aspirations of the Ukrainian people..."

They may well do so - and John McCain too...

 

6079_Smith_W
NDPP

Kiev Mass Riots Timeline

http://rt.com/news/kiev-protest-clashes-updates-862/

"Unrest in Kiev has entered its fifth day as protesters pelt police cordons with stones and Molotov cocktails.."

 

Ukrainian Protests (and vid)

http://rt.com/shows/why-care-summary/ukrainian-protests-movement-eu-597/

"Apathybot's cause of the week is the Ukrainian protest movement.."

6079_Smith_W

I saw a claim on another forum that "the vanguard" of all the protests are neoNazis.

NDPP

Ukraine: The Untold Story  -  by Brian Denny

http://rtuc.wordpress.com/2014/01/23/ukraine/

"Brian Denny examines the far-right connections of Ukraine's pro-EU faction...Bluntly, it is an unholy alliance of conservatives, fascists and revanchist groups promoting a cult around former nazi collaborators."

 

As well, this excellent piece posted by epaulo to the Police State thread indicates what's in store if this dragooning of Ukraine into the EU is successful..

The European Periphery As A Political Laboratory

http://roarmag.org/2014/01/austerity-europe-neoliberal-laboratory/

"There is nothing specifically European going on here: capitalism is winning and we are losing.."

 

And Canada is set to open the door to the very same via the EU-Canada Free Trade Agreement...

6079_Smith_W

Even this RT article points out that Nazi sympathizers are a small minority.

http://rt.com/op-edge/ukrainian-nationalists-attacked-police-888/

As for the Nazi collaborators, you might want to read their biographies:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Shukhevych

Hardly innocent, but somehow both of them wound up on stamps, coins and monuments.

Though speaking of innocence,  Id say Moscow played the Nazis at least as much as the Ukrainian Nationalist movement did, and shed far more blood... something conveniently forgotten after Barbarossa.

 

NDPP

more here:

'West Targets Russia By Ukraine Unrest' (and vid)

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/01/24/347411/west-targets-russia-by-u...

"..If Ukraine leaves the cooperation with Russia, joins the EU, takes the suffering, what will be entailed with that decision? Russia will see this as an existential threat and I think that they will start to take other measures. We are really on the brink of a very dangerous situation..."

6079_Smith_W

One could make exactly the same argument that Canada should capitulate to U.S. wishes so that they don't get angry.

And when have they ever NOT taken measures against Ukraine when it was in their interest? They have crossed that bridge already.

 

 

 

 

Unionist

6079_Smith_W wrote:

As for the Nazi collaborators, you might want to read their biographies:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Shukhevych

Hardly innocent, but somehow both of them wound up on stamps, coins and monuments.

They wound up on stamps and monuments. And coins.

My family was betrayed, hunted down, and murdered by their followers, working with the German invaders.

These are fascist, racist, anti-Semitic murderers. "Hardly innocent". That's about right.

[url=http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2010/feb/24/a-fascist-hero-in-democ... fascist hero in democratic Kiev[/url]

 

6079_Smith_W

My point is, Unionist, if we are having a history lesson, there is more than enough cooperation with Nazis, more than enough slaughter and more then enough anti-semitism on all sides. If we want to talk about the territory where these people committed murders, who was it who turned that territory over to the Nazis in the first place?

I don't think anyone is excusing crimes that were committed, but when you consider the role Russia played in driving people to desparate and horrible acts (and the many they committed themselves) this interpretation, and the notion that they are a natural ally of Ukraine, is kind of ironic.

And more importantly, the notion that neo-Nazis are the driving force behind the opposition movement is unfounded. Their country needs to come to terms with honoured historical figures? Sure. But let's not pretend that it is just neo-Nazis we are talking about. You could make exactly the same accusation about our own country, and the boy on our 10 dollar bill, at the very least.

 

 

 

 

Unionist

What are you talking about?

I objected to your whitewashing of these bloodthirsty thugs and murderers. I'm talking about Bandera and his gang (OUN and other such groups of the time). Why are you on about Russia and the protests? Where exactly did you see me mention anything whatsoever about them? I have no inside information about who these people in the streets are in 2014 or what their real demands and issues are and who's behind them.

You want to portray Bandera as some hero of the Ukrainian people? You will hear some very un-babble-like language from me. Of course, luckily, you seem to know nothing about Bandera other than what has been written in Wikipedia, so I can't really blame you for your utter ignorance on the subject. I can, however, respectfully request that you listen to those who know, and who have suffered, much more than you at the hands of these fascist butchers.

Thanks for reading my posts in the future and responding to what I have said, rather than to what you imagine.

NDPP

'Very Irresponsible to Hold Early Elections in Ukraine' (and vid)

http://rt.com/op-edge/ukraine-early-elections-protests-131/

"...We do not see peaceful protests in Ukraine. We see highly organized violent protesters being encouraged by very irresponsible actions primarily of many European Union nations. It's extremely dangeous,'

Daniel McAdam agrees, saying that, 'The protesters have become more radicalized because they have been encouraged all along by EU and American politicians, who have been on the ground in the middle of the protests encouraging them.

Talking about the anti-protest law enacted by the Ukrainian government on Jan16, which is believed to be a reason for the renewed unrest, Martin Sieff says that ' The constraints under the new Ukrainian law are virtually identical to the laws of the US and many European countries have harsher laws."

6079_Smith_W

Did you read that article you posted, Unionist? I'm not whitewashing a damned thing.

I'm criticizing that article by Brian Denny upthread which, aside from the fact that it paints Ukraine as just pawn in a battle between the EU and Russia, implies that the only people who consider these people heroes to the Ukrainian cause are fascists. And further, that it is fascists who are driving the whole of the opposition movement.

None of these things are true; the most that can be said is that they are gross distortions.

Now I don't like the fact that old drunk is on our 10 dollar bill any more than you, but here's a newsflash: I don't think everyone who considers him an important statesman and needs to come to terms with our history is automatically a fascist.

Again, read that article you posted; I did. The view of Bandera in Ukraine is also mixed, and controversial, but rightly or wrongly, he is hardly a symbol for fascists alone. Coins and stamps might seem mundane, but can you think of more solid evidence of some mainstream appeal?

Unless these fascists cults have some sort of covert control of the mint, that is.

 

Unionist

Ok, Smith, I have taken the unusual (first-time I think) step of flagging a post of yours as offensive. Here's what I wrote:

Quote:
Bandera was a fascist, racist and anti-Semite. His gang were murderers. Excusing his crimes can't be in accordance with babble policy. This is not a complex matter. I'm asking for a ruling on this issue.

Just for full disclosure.

I don't give a flying fuck what Ukrainians think of Bandera. Nor do I give a flying fuck what Germans think of Hitler. These butchers cannot be praised on babble. This is a matter of policy, not opinion and debate. I'd be happy to leave this place if I'm wrong. I do have some dead relatives (and millions of their co-religionists) whose memory needs honouring, after all.

6079_Smith_W

Yes.

I recognize that it is a very sensitive subject. All the more reason to ask questions when people start throwing it around as an accusation.

Have I said one word in defense of Bandera and Shukhevych?

If anything perhaps I failed to condemn them in terms strong enough, but seeing as my point was not about them, and all I did was print their record (which should speak for itself) I hardly think I need to tell anyone here what to think.

But if in failing to do that I muddied the waters here, excuse me. My point, again, is that not everyone who admires them is a fascist. Like it or not.

Again... the fact that this is such a highly charged issue is part of the reason why these charges of fascism should be examined - not just taken for granted.

 

 

 

NDPP

The powers that be behind the EU and the US and the banksters pushing this power-grab for Ukraine are every bit as monstrous and ill intentioned as any fascists or nazis. There continues to be lots of praise for the actions of butchers on this board especially when they're western, NATO, etc.

6079_Smith_W

Speaking of conflating the issue...

Again, Unionist, I know you have a far better appreciation for this issue than I do. I suspect you might also have a stronger reaction than I did to a photo montage propaganda book I used to have which had Anne Frank personally accusing the western capitalists of her murder. As much as it contained bits of truth, and some fair accusations, its ultimate purpose and methods made my blood boil.

The Soviets might have hammered against fascism, but by denying the root causes and using it to brand anyone they saw as an enemy they undermined a lot of the good they did.

While i think it is important to note that these groups exist, and be wary of alliances with them, using the charge of fascism in the hamhanded and exploitative way it is here doesn't help this situation at all either.

 

 

 

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

I hope we've reached more or less a settling point on this issue through discussion -- I don't know anything about Bandera or the history at work here, but I'm sure that no one here is a friend of fascists. Thanks for your note Unionist, and thanks to both W & U for working this out.

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