Ukraine - closed

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Unionist

Thanks, CF - and yes, W, please check your PMs. I've relented.

 

6079_Smith_W

I'll check them. Sorry for getting unnecessarily snarky, too.

 

cco

Neo-Nazis and far-right protesters in Ukraine

cco

Not all of us use Facebook, y'know.

6079_Smith_W

cco wrote:
Neo-Nazis and far-right protesters in Ukraine

Yup.

That would be the very same site I ran into on Facebook yesterday. Congratulations cco.

Here's another take on another part of the right wing from some newspaper:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/23/ukrainian-far-right-groups-...

Quote:

"For us,Europe is not an issue, in fact joining with Europe would be the death of Ukraine. Europe means the death of the nation state and the death of Christianity. We want a Ukraine for Ukrainians, run by Ukrainians, and not serving the interests of others."

... from a member of onw of the far right groups.

And this:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/22/ukraine-protests-eu...

 

NDPP

Kiev Protesters Siege Energy Ministry Building as Donetsk Holds (and vid)

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-ministry-building-siege-194/

"Meanwhile in eastern Ukraine, thousands of peeople took to the streets in support of President Yanukovich. RT's Paul Slier spoke to demonstrators in Donetsk, Ukraine's major industril economic and scientific center, where the city officials estimated 300,000 people were taking part in Saturday's rally.

According to Slier, the pro-government demonstators say that protesters in Kiev are small in numbers, do not represent the whole nation and are supported by foreign contingents in the West.

Watch RT's...Paula Slier on the split between Ukraine's regions..."

NDPP

Harper Concerned About Ukraine Violence

http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2014/01/25/harper-concerned-about-ukrai...

"The prime minister said the Conservative government is concerned by the 'growing political conflict and violence' in Ukraine. He added, however, that Canada understands why Ukrainians are resorting to violence given the actions of their current government 'very much remind them of their anti-democratic and Soviet past.'

Harper added the government shares the concern and supports an immediate emergency debate in the House of Commons on the Ukrainian situation.."

Bahrain as well? No, thought not..

NDPP

Militarization of Kiev Protesters

http://www.voltairenet.org/article181895.html

"The protesters supported by the leaders of the US administration, the European Union and NATO, who went to salute them personally - have escalated from simply protesting to using military techniques..."

 

Corbett Report: Who Is Behind The Ukraine Riots? (and vid)

http://www.corbettreport.com/interview-811-new-world-next-week-with-jame...

 

CrossTalk: Kiev Burning (and vid)

http://rt.com/shows/crosstalk/ukraine-kiev-burning-protests-116/

"Who are the groups on Independence Square? Are they protesters or rioters? What is Europe's reaction to the violence in Kiev?"

NDPP

US, European Diplomats Meet With Radicals in Kiev, See 'No Threat' From Them

http://rt.com/news/ambassadors-us-kiev-protesters-252/

"...American, CANADIAN, and European diplomats arrived in Independence Square - also known as Maidan - on Sunday. The foreign diplomats also reportedly met with the speaker of Right Sector - a movement uniting several nationalist organizations and one of Maidan's self-defense commanders.

They were 'convinced that these people posed no threat' and that the 'aggression' only comes from government forces..."

 

Pro-Western Ukrainian Opposition Stokes Up Civil War  -  by Stefan Steinberg

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/01/27/ukra-j27.html

"...According to a Channel 4 News report, The Right Sector group comprised of 'autonomous nationalists', which recruits from ultra-right football hooligan groups are in the front line of confrontations with police.  One Ukrainian source told Channel 4 News that Right Sector is the most violent force on the streets.

The direct intervention by leading representatives of [CANADA] the EU, Germany and the US in the Ukrainian protests threatens to split the country in two and provoke a civil war..."

 

Neo-Nazis and Far-Right Protesters in Ukraine

http://libcom.org/news/neo-nazis-far-right-protesters-ukraine-23012014

"The far-right in Ukraine are acting as the vanguard of a protest movement that is being reported as pro-democracy."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a94mNfmZ1gc

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

NDPP wrote:

The powers that be behind the EU and the US and the banksters pushing this power-grab for Ukraine are every bit as monstrous and ill intentioned as any fascists or nazis. There continues to be lots of praise for the actions of butchers on this board especially when they're western, NATO, etc.

Wow, personell commentary from NDPP without a link to some web site. Quick someone take a picture. ;-D

 

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Oh and that sure is a alot of neo-nazis. Or are those just Ukranians that don't know any better...Undecided

mersh

I found this perspective useful: http://libcom.org/blog/ukraine-whats-going-what-does-it-mean-03122013

I particularly appreciated the distinction among elites at work here, as well as the description of the opportunity some activists are seeing to affect change (not talking about neo-Nazis or nationalists of course), as well as the (false) promises of the West.

Entrenched power-holders, filthily rich and well-connected with Russia, and with armefd force available, on the one hand; strong EU-oriented business and political interestst interests on the other. Modernized austerity as an alternative to traditional corrupt business as usial. Not much to choose there. This is an intra-business conflict, in which the pro-EU wing of the ruling class succeeds in raising an impressive stage army of protesters. There is no reason whatsoever for the taking of sides here.

But then the author notes this:

People assembled in mass protests day after day – for whatever reason - tend to gain in self-confidence, may start to develop ideas of their own, and may get into the habit of acting upon them.. And there is tension between these kind of protesters and the more traditional political opposition. “So far, most of the opposition leaders have refused to heed students' requests to get rid of party symbols.” One side demands, another side does not comply. This is a recipe for people taking a direction that opposition politicians do not like.

This is one perspective, of course, but it does offer a more complex view of the situation that doesn't demand we side with either "side".

NDPP

MPs Debated Ukraine Violence in House of Commons

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/mps-debated-ukraine-violence-in-house-of...

"The debate went until midnight with MPs from all parties essentially united in condemning the Ukrainian government's actions. The call for consideration of sanctions echoes language proposed by NDP MPs and in a statement made by Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau..."

Now that's what I call a 'loyal' opposition..

6079_Smith_W

Information and timeline from the opposition perspective:

http://www.slideshare.net/NazarBartosik/what-is-really-happening-in-ukraine

 

laine lowe laine lowe's picture

Is there an official position and/or united rebuke re: Thailand?

NDPP

Interview - Ukraine: The Authorities Vs Gangsters - Rick Rozoff

http://rickrozoff.wordpress.com/2014/01/27/interview-ukraine-the-authori...

"The scene currently playing out in Ukraine has all the signs of a foreign engineered regime change operation.."

NDPP

CrossTalk: Radical Ukraine (and vid)

http://rt.com/shows/crosstalk/radical-ukraine-violence-opposition-347/

"Who is responsible for the violence on the streets of Kiev? CrossTalking with John Loughland, Tony Halpin and Dmitry Babich.."

NDPP

'It Would Be Disastrous If The Ukrainian President Resigned'

http://rt.com/op-edge/yanukovich-west-civil-war-387/

"The US and the EU should support the Ukrainian president and urge the rebels to accept the amnesty agreement, otherwise it could lead to a civil war, global policy expert Martin Sieff told RT.."

Unionist

Reprinted by Canadian Dimension:

[url=http://canadiandimension.com/articles/5900/]Ukraine and the rebirth of fascism[/url]

Quote:

In Ukraine, the “Right Sector” has taken the fight from the negotiating table to the streets in an attempt to fulfill the dream of Stepan Bandera – a Ukraine free of Russia , Jews, and all other “undesirables” as they see it.

Buoyed by the continued support from the US and Europe , these fanatics represent a more serious threat to democracy than Yanukovich and the pro-Russian government ever could. If Europe and the United States don’t recognize this threat in its infancy, by the time they finally do, it might just be too late.

 

6079_Smith_W

A couple of other takes on it:

http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21595512-government-resigns-opposit...

http://www.radio.cz/en/section/in-focus/how-much-blame-should-the-eu-sha...

Not the only source I have read which says it's not that likely that the EU is going to offer much at all to Ukraine.

 

 

Unionist

[url=http://www.jta.org/2014/01/15/news-opinion/world/ukrainian-protest-movem... protest movement must shun anti-Semitic elements[/url]

Quote:
To salvage their remaining credibility, Yatsenyuk and Klitschko must immediately denounce the neo-fascist drift of recent weeks and break off their alliance with Svoboda. Then they should sit and negotiate with the Ukrainian government and leaders of the country’s vibrant civil society, including all the religious communities, to find a solution to the protracted standoff in Kiev that gives hope for a democratic future for Ukraine based on rule of law.

[by Oleksandr Feldman, president of the Ukraine Jewish Committee, member of the Ukrainian parliament, and wealthy businessman and philanthropist]

NDPP

Perhaps I missed the domestic media coverage of Canada's little walk-on as fascost cheerleader...?

Ukrainian Ultras: New Challenge to the West

http://rt.com/op-edge/ukrainian-violence-ultras-pravy-sektor-288/

"...What comes as a double surprise is the latest news that ambassadors of several EU-member states, the US and Canada have paid another visit to Maidan to meet Pravy Sektor activists and learn how 'the headquarters of national resistance' operates..."

NDPP

MPs Hold Emergency Debate on Crisis in Ukraine

http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/mps-hold-emergency-debate-on-crisis-in-uk...

"Canada should consider 'targeted sanctions' against leaders in the Ukrainian government, NDP foreign affairs critic Paul Dewar said Monday as MPs debated the growing crisis in the Eastern European country...

 

NDP Concerned About Situation in Ukraine

http://www.ndp.ca/news/ndp-concerned-about-situation-ukraine

"The proposed Agreement would have been one of the most significant accords ever reached between the EU and a partner country' said NDP Foreign Affairs Critic Paul Dewar. 'Far from being a simple free trade agreement, it would have represented an important commitment by the Ukraine government to protect human rights and democracy.."

NDP on the marvels of being screwed by an EU Free Trade deal

NDPP

Ukraine and the Rebirth of Fascism in Europe  -  by Eric Draitser

http://stopimperialism.org/ukraine-rebirth-fascism-europe/

"The violence on the streets of Ukraine is far more than an expression of anger against a government. Instead, it is merely the latest example of the rise of the most insidious form of fascism that Europe has seen since the fall of the Third Reich..."

 

Kerry To Hold Talks With Opposition Leaders (and vid)

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/01/31/348568/kerry-to-meet-ukraine-op...

shartal@rogers.com

Ukraine: far-right extremists at core of 'democracy' protest

As violent scenes play out on the streets of Kiev, we look at the major role extremist right-wing movements have played in Ukraine's "pro-democracy" movement.

Check out New 4 UK Jan 24, 2014

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..here's the link. includes video.

Ukraine: far-right extremists at core of 'democracy' protest

http://www.channel4.com/news/kiev-svoboda-far-right-protests-right-secto...

6079_Smith_W

So we don't trust the corporate media unless they are spouting OUR opinions.

I like to take my news sources at face value, and media like the guardian have also warned about the far right threat in these protests.

As for this "news" piece  (since it uses scare quotes in the headline, I'm free to do the same) the only actual direct source cited is buried at the bottom, and says this:

"These people are separate from Svoboda, though they will have many links through activists - but they are not controlled by any one group," he explained.

"At the core"? They don't actually get around to establishing that, though it would be a shame to kill such a great headline just because of that.

Call me elitist, but I'll take it a bit more seriously when it comes from a network that doesn't count "My *** *** Gypsy Wedding" among its flagship programs.

 

wage zombie

This is a week old, but I looked back and I don't think it was ever posted.  Lots of pictures, first hand account.

Revolution in Kiev, Ukraine

Quote:

In the last days I received multiple requests to translate my posts for foreign readers, as they have very limited information about the happenings in Ukraine. This material describes events which took place in Kyev on January 22 and 23. 
Sharing and distribution is appreciated.

 

NDPP

Ukraine Divides World Powers At Munich Security Conference (and vid)

http://www.dw.de/ukraine-divides-world-powers-at-munich-security-confere...

"No where is the fight for a democratic, European future more important today than in Ukraine,' Kerry said in Munich. 'The US and EU stand with the people of Ukraine.'

'Why are so many prominent EU politicians actually encouraging such actions although back home they are quick to severely punish any violations of the law?' Lavrov said. 'What does incitement of increasingly violent  street protests have to do with promoting democracy?'

On Friday, Ukraine's secret service announced it was opening an investigation into the opposition Fatherland Party for 'pre-planning the protests'..."

 

In Ukraine, Fascists, Oligarchs and Western Expansion Are At the Heart of the Crisis  -  by Seumas Milne

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/29/ukraine-fascists-ol...

"The story we're told about the protests gripping Kiev bears only the sketchiest relationship with reality..."

 

Ukraine Crisis: 'Trashy Play That Has Been Written Outside Ukraine'

http://rickrozoff.wordpress.com/2014/02/01/ukraine-crisis-trashy-play-th...

"Mass protest rallies in Kyiv were planned..."

6079_Smith_W

@ NDPP Your last piece points to conspiracy theory. The "trashy play" line was actually from a government figure.

The first piece, well there's the Russian foreign minister and the American foreign minister accusing each other of the same thing.

And it is hardly surprising that the current government would want to target the Fatherland party of former PM Yulia Tymoshenko with pre-planning the protests.

Though aside from spontaneous riots, I don't think there are too many protests which aren't pre-planned, and I'm not sure (if the charge is true) what is wrong with a Ukrainian political party organizing protests within Ukraine.

And at the time of her trial two years ago they weren't the only ones orchestrating protests:

http://rt.com/news/tymoshenko-prime-minister-arrest-ukraine/

http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2011/08/yulia-tymoshenk...

Your middle piece seems to get at the heart of things a bit better. Ukraine is unlikely to be offered anything like membership in the EU at all, and contrary to the notion that this is a big conspiracy, we actually see the furthest right political party being side-stepped by radical right groups, some of which are actually opposed to cooperation with the EU.

 

Slumberjack

6079_Smith_W wrote:
So we don't trust the corporate media unless they are spouting OUR opinions.

Western corporate media had long ago relinquished any right to trust, except for the fully earned trust of their parent, corporate HQs. To take them at face value is a fool's errand that involves the carrying of water.

6079_Smith_W

Well that was my point, SJ, never mind that the corporate media organization which ran that analysis piece is sketcher than most.

And more accurately, you can't entirely trust ANY media, as they all have their own biases and perspectives.

 

Slumberjack

It's usually the case that the agendas of western corporate interests are advanced in common cause with fascists, terrorists, and extremists of every stripe.  It seems that many are quick to entertain the choice between willful confusion or forgetful senility in this regard, while completely ignoring history.

6079_Smith_W

Ah... but when one of those western fascist terrorist media runs some sensationalist headline that backs our version of things (even though it is probably just to get viewers, and has nothing in the story to back it up) then they are automatically a reliable source?

Again, SJ. I'm not the one falling for it. Why are you trying to argue with me simply because I point it out?

 

 

Slumberjack

6079_Smith_W wrote:
And more accurately, you can't entirely trust ANY media, as they all have their own biases and perspectives.

No, this is true.  In the reckoning of our side of the ledger in that regard, we must at least take into account the mountains of victims bodies that have accrued from their lies, just in the last decade or so alone.  But I hope you do realize that the continuing encirclement of Russia and China by the Western economic powers, who brook no geo-political competition if they can help it, are steering the world toward another conflagration?

Slumberjack

6079_Smith_W wrote:
Why are you trying to argue with me simply because I point it out?

Didn't you just say you prefer to get your information from established western media sources?

 

6079_Smith_W

No, I didn't say that. I actually said I like to take news reports at face value, which means the opposite: that I like to give it a fair read regardless of the source. Whether I trust it or not depends on how reliable they seem to be, and whether they are corroborated by other sources.

That piece didn't pass the sniff test. If for no other reason than that the headline was not backed up by the story.

Can we move on now, please?

 

Slumberjack

Well, I was just going to suggest, from what you've been saying, that we can in fact acquire a fairly accurate picture of what is going on in Ukraine by the pattern in which the corporate media reports on it.  No other source is required, although certainly other accounts may be of interest.

NDPP

Slumberjack wrote:

But I hope you do realize that the continuing encirclement of Russia and China by the Western economic powers, who brook no geo-political competition if they can help it, are steering the world toward another conflagration?

And Canada once again plays satan's little helper in this.

As well, you will be hard pressed to find the  cheerleading visitation to the nazi-like Pravy Sektor by the nazi-like Canadian diplomatic types reported in Canadian media. (see #62). All of this supported by all the poxy pro-nazi parties in the evil talk-shop parliament of course..

NDPP

US Supporting 'Fascists, Neo-Nazis' in Ukraine: analyst (and vid)

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/02/02/348946/us-aids-fascists-neonazi...

"The United States is supporting the anti-government protests in Ukraine, which is being led by 'fascists and neo-Nazis' who have no interest in human rights and seek to 'divide' the country, a geopolitical analyst in New York says..."

6079_Smith_W

I guess someone forgot to send the propaganda directive to the Washington Post.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/radicals-a-wild-card-in-ukrai...

They do identify Vitaly Klitschko (supposedly the European favourite) as opposition leader, even though Arseniy Yatsenyuk's Fatherland Party holds more than double the number of seats. The two opposition parties agreed to not field candidates in some of each others' ridings in order to maximize opposition.

Even though the Washington Post is part of the western media Hydra it doesn't paint such a flattering picture of the neo-Nazi gangs that are apparently being orchestrated by its puppet masters.

As well, the article quotes a Pravy Sektor source as saying they have 300 people in Kiev, and 150,000 supporters in all.

Yatsenyuk blames a different foreign power for dividing the country, and says one possible goal may be civil war, and carving off the country's east.

http://www.lucorg.com/news.php/news/7197

6079_Smith_W

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/01/30/9-questions...

The comments are worth reading, as there is lots of reaction, and some rebuttal.

NDPP

Blood on the Maidan

http://souloftheeast.org/2014/02/01/blood-on-the-maidan/

"....choreography of a revolution in Ukraine is a rather cheap method of destabilizing Russia's southern periphery.

 

 'Great Gamester' Zbigniew Brzezinski Salutes EuroMaidan

http://youtu.be/CbELpDfPmz0

6079_Smith_W

This also happened yesterday. Some of course credited western pressure for the victim's freedom, and being allowed to leave the country. Maybe if he just hadn't been tortured, crucified and had his ear cut off (and at that he's luckier than those who have been murdered) then the opposition wouldn't be able to spin the situation like that.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/02/ukraine-president-viktor-ya...

And the U.N. High Commission has called for a probe into torture and kidnapping in Ukraine.

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/1/31/ukraine-protestortorture...

For that matter, if Russia hadn't been using oil as a weapon for decades now (not to mention many other forms of suppression) perhaps none of this would be happening at all, and there would be no opportunity for "the west" to take advantage of.

 

Unionist

The Yanukovych government was democratically elected in 2010. If some Ukrainians can't wait till 2015 - and if they want to use Molotov cocktails and other means to lobby (or replace) the government - then surely that's their right. We have no right to interfere. But asking me to feel sorry for some poor soul who was crucified and had his ear cut off? I'm sure it was painful. Stephen Harper will be sure to speak out on behalf of those poor folks suffering under fascist Russian dictatorship (copyright: Stockholm).

 

6079_Smith_W

Perhaps we should apply that same analysis to the Toronto G20, Unionist; that whole thing was just a violent mob that didn't understand democracy, right? But then, we can't even figure out how to keep a parliamentary page from calling for the overthrow of a freshly-elected government that hadn't even done anything yet.

It seems you're reading from Harper's playbook as well: I recall his gang saying the only consultation required is that which happens on election day.

(edit)

Reading that over U, I'm not sure what you're saying. People have a right to protest, as you say; painting it all as violent and bent on overthrow kind of undermines that recognition, though. And I think people are less concerned about sympathy than they are about stopping the disappearances and murders.

 

 

 

 

NDPP

Ukraine Unrest Timeline (Updates)

http://rt.com/news/kiev-protest-clashes-updates-862/

"The Ukrainian opposition is ready to form a new government and take full responsibility for the situation in the country, leader of the Batkivshchina (Fatherland) opposition party Arseny Yatsenyuk told local broadcaster Channel 5.

He added that Ukraine would require loans from the IMF, the EU and the US to help finance the new government..."

 

'Ukrainian Opposition is Morally and Politically Bankrupt' (and vid)

http://rt.com/op-edge/ukraine-opposition-politically-bankrupt-459/

"The European Union wants to see a client regime in Kiev. I think they want to see a government that would obey them in every respect like what they have in Serbia currently.

Unionist

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Perhaps we should apply that same analysis to the Toronto G20, Unionist; that whole thing was just a violent mob that didn't understand democracy, right?

You're confused. Toronto is in our country. It's not interference for us to say what should happen in our country. And in the case of the G20, I like others condemned the police repression. I also condemned the provocateurs who torched cars and smashed windows in an obvious attempt to: (a) serve the interests of the state; or (b) give vent to some peculiar ideology far removed from the wishes of the vast majority of Canadians; or (c) finish growing up.

So please don't twist and distort my words for some weird purpose. If you haven't absorbed my point about how Canada must not interfere in the internal affairs of Ukraine - just go look at the thread I opened to make precisely that point.

Quote:
Reading that over U, I'm not sure what you're saying. People have a right to protest, as you say; painting it all as violent and bent on overthrow kind of undermines that recognition, though. And I think people are less concerned about sympathy than they are about stopping the disappearances and murders.

The more I read about the protests in Ukraine, the less sympathy I have for their "cause". The fact that unregenerate nazis, fascists, Banderists, and anti-Semites are part of that movement has, I'll admit, prejudiced me against them. I certainly hope they stay safe and don't suffer the same bloody end as my family did - you know, the victims of their forebears. That would be so sad. Losing an ear. Tragic.

 

 

 

 

 

NDPP

Interior Ministry: Opposition Activist Bulatov, Friends Refuse to Cooperate With Investigations

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/interior-ministry-opposition-act...

"Oleh Tatarov, deputy head of the Main Investigations Department of the Ukrainian Interior Ministry, told a press conference in Kyiv on Friday that people close to Bulatov, including his acquaintances, relatives and politicians who had contact with him, did not want to work with investigators.

Tatarov reiterated the fact that the investigators worked on several theories of Bulatov's missing person case, including motives of financial gain and the possibility of a provocation to draw a negative public response."

 

Activist Dmytro Bulatov Gives Gruesome Details of His Kidnapping (and vid)

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/activist-dmytro-bulatov-gives-gr...

"...Speaking from a hospital bed to Wall Street Journal's Alan Cullison on Feb 1, Bulatov gave some gruesome details about the eight days he spent in captivity.

Petro Poroshenko, one of the opposition leaders, said evacuation to Vilnius was assisted by high-ranking western officials..."

NDPP

US Warships, Marines Enter Black Sea

http://rickrozoff.wordpress.com/2014/02/03/u-s-warships-marines-enter-bl...

"The guided missile frigate USS Ramage (DDG-61) and the command ship USS Mt Whitney with 600 marines deployed aboard have come to the Black Sea, a military diplomat told the Russian news agency on Monday.

Judging by the vector of their movement, one may presume the US warships are headed towards the Ukrainian Black Sea coast..."

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