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Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Wow, Ukraine is so full of nazis they took over the country.

NDPP

TRN: Popular Uprising, Foreign Manipulation and Rising Fascism in Ukraine (and vid)

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&I...

Political economist Aleksandr Bozgalin and international law professor John Quigley discuss the internal rivalries for power taking place within Ukraine and the history of its relations with Russia..."

 

NATO Chieftain Voices 'Concern' Over Crimea

http://rickrozoff.wordpress.com/2014/02/27/nato-chieftain-voices-concern...

"I'm concerned about developments in Crimea. I urge Russia not to take any action that can escalate tension or create misunderstanding,' Rasmussen said on Twitter."

 

The US Arrogance Stirs Me:   by Bruce Gagnon

http://rickrozoff.wordpress.com/2014/02/27/u-s-arrogance-stirs-me-bruce-...

"I was ready to throw my slippers at the TV when Obama and Kerry threatened Russia over any 'interference'. Who the hell are they to talk about interfering?

The now famous 'Fuck the EU' quote from Victoria Nuland (wife of Bush-Cheney era neocon Robert Kagan) was direct evidence of the deep involvement and interference of the US in Ukraine.

This whole story just reeks of hypocrisy and arrogance on the part of the US."

iyraste1313

The rally in the center of Simferopol under the slogan "Crimea , get up! " ( Video)
25.02.2014 Today , February 25 , at the building of the Supreme Soviet of Crimea Simferopol rally of residents disagree with the actions of the newly elected government.
Some 400 protesters , led by representatives of the " Crimean Front " requires an extraordinary session of the Crimean parliament , a return to the Constitution of Crimea in 1992 , and " ignore decrees, orders and laws adopted by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine and the Cabinet of Ministers on 20 February ."
Protesters say the change of power in Ukraine coup. In this regard, all the powers of leadership in the Crimea go to the Supreme Council of Crimea. New bills Verkhovna Rada go against the wishes of the Crimeans .
Participants of the meeting was read to the Chairman of the Supreme Council of Crimea Vladimir Konstantinov :
"We can not sit back and watch as the wave rolled on Crimea lawlessness and chaos that can absorb all that is dear to each krymchanina . In this situation, you and your headed the Supreme Council are obliged to take responsibility for ensuring peace and stability, lead the struggle for autonomy. Efforts of the conflicting parties destroyed the Ukrainian legislation . President disappeared , and its responsibilities are assigned to the impostor . New Cabinet of Ministers formed under conditions of legal tyranny . The Constitution changed the violation of procedures , it ceased to be a full-fledged legal document . Accepted BP solutions are illegitimate and can not be enforced . Thus the only authority whose legitimacy in the composition of the entire Crimean autonomy can not be doubted is the Sun ARC.
Crimean Parliament must seek the support of Crimeans , lead their resistance. Power structures must swear allegiance to autonomy. Build a relationship with Ukraine on the ARC Constitution in 1992 .
Since the events are put into question the appropriateness of Crimea stay within the State of Ukraine initiates all-Crimean referendum. On the question of the status of the country , there are three possible answers : Shall the Crimea as part of Ukraine's autonomy , did the Russian authorities to request entry into the Russian Federation declared independence . "
The protesters issued an ultimatum to the Chairman Sun Crimea V.Konstontinovu the need for their conditions up to 17 hours. Otherwise people present at the meeting plan to occupy the building of the Supreme Soviet .

 

.......Are these the people that just seized the Parliament buildings? The Crimean Front!

Interesting to see the nature of the politics of the Ukraine with its Party of (autonomous?) regions.....

A serious study of their 1992 constitution and the philosophy of the Party of Regions is important...

a somewhat similar decentralist approach for Canada with autonomous regions outside the control of the corporate fascists presently ruling us...is essential if we are to build a true peoples movement in Canada!

NorthReport

Ukraine protests: the roots of the political division

The map of Ukraine has changed numerous times, but just before the Cossak era it was largely under the control of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth - sowing the seeds of the political split evident today.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2014/feb/27/ukraine-protest...

NDPP

US, Europe Steps Up Threats Against Russia Over Ukraine  -  by Stefan Steinberg

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/02/28/ukra-f28.html

"...As for the 'moderate forces' in Ukraine referred to by the German Defense Minister, they are nowhere to be found in the new cabinet voted into office on Thursday by a large majority of the Ukrainian parliament. The new cabinet is reactionary to the core.

All the key positions have been taken by either veterans of previous governments, fascists or the representatives of oligarchic interests.

No less than three posts including that of deputy prime minister, have been given to the fascist Svoboda party..."

 

Cross Talk: Nuland's Newbies (and vid)

http://rt.com/shows/crosstalk/ukraine-egypt-syria-nato-122/

"How similar is the situation in Ukraine to Egypt or Syria? Should Russia worry about its neighbor? Does NATO want Ukraine in the alliance? And is the West ready to pay for Ukraine? CrossTalking with Daniel McAdams, James Carafano and Jacques Chemina.."

 

As Sun Sets on Beautiful Sochi, Jealous West Takes Center Stage  -  by Daniel Patrick Welsh

http://www.voltairenet.org/article182349.html

"The Regime Change Roadshow is getting old, and some of us were not fooled. Let's be clear, to use one of the US President's more meaningless and worn out catch-phrases: this is not about 'some fascists', or 'fringe elements' or 'unexpected fascists' within the ranks of a 'peaceful protest movement.' Sorry I'm running out of quotation marks.

The plain fact is that fascists are now the power in Ukraine. Fascists maintain checkpoints across Kiev, fascists guard government buildings, fascists are taking control of military arsenals. Kiev City Hall has been decorated with an enormous banner of Svoboda's Nazi hero, Stepan Bandera.

In the flush of democracy, it is now known that the large majority votes in the parliament included such patriotic and populist tactics as detaining all the delegates from the Communist Party, among others, threatening and coercing still more delegates, and maintaining the gloves-off threat of violence throughout the ordeal.

Opponents were beaten, their families threatened, and warned that they would be hunted down for ten or fifteen years if they did not knuckle under.."

NDPP

'Shut the F**k Up B*tch! (and vid)

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-radical-attacks-prosecutor-080/

"Ukrainian radical nationalist leader Aleksandr Muzychko went on with the rampage against regional authorities, lashing out at a local prosecutor. Muzychko, who is a member of the Right Sector radical movement, arrived at Rovno Oblast prosecutor's office after he heard claims that a criminal investigation into a local murder is being delayed.

The controversial 'activist' known for taking part in the Chechen conflict against Russian troops, for his recent Kalashnikov brandishing in front of regional authorities and for making openly anti-semitic statements decided to take matters into his own hands..."

 

John Baird in Ukraine To Meet New Govt

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/02/27/john-baird-in-ukraine-to-meet-new-govt

"On Thursday, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, a protest leader was appointed the country's new prime minister. Baird said the change represents a 'fresh start'.

'We look forward to the next steps in Ukraine's regeneration,' Baird said in a statement. 'Meaningful economic reform must be supported by the international community, including through key international financial institutions..."

Yes, NATO and the IMF have already scheduled their meetings

NorthReport

Crimean coup is payback by Putin for Ukraine's revolution

After what Moscow regards as the western-backed takeover of Kiev, the Kremlin's choreography has been impressive

SimferopolRussian flags outside the Crimean parliament building in Simferopol. Photograph: David Mdzinarishvili/Reuters

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/28/vladimir-putin-crimean-coup...

3350

NDPP

http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_02_28/Yanukovych-says-West-helped-fas...

"...He emphasized once again that he remains the legitimately elected president of Ukraine. He said he doesn't recognize the presidential elections scheduled for May 25 and will not run in them.

Yanukovych urged Russia to take action 'to put an end to the chaos and terror that exist in Ukraine today. Yanukovych also said he believes Russia to be a strategic partner, adding he is surprised that Putin 'keeps silent'.

 

Russia FM Lavrov Insists on Implementing Feb 21 Ukraine Agreement

http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_02_28/Russian-PM-Lavrov-insists-on-im...

"The Russia side once again emphasized the urgent need for returning the situation in Kiev to the legal framework and implementing  the February 21 agreement, including primarily the curbing of radical extremists' actions..."

 

Ukraine Shows Russia on Washington's Criminal 'To Do' List For Regime Change

http://www.4thmedia.org/2014/02/28/ukraine-shows-russia-on-washingtons-t...

 

arielc

Here we go ...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/02/28/crimea-ukraine-airpo...

Ukraine accuses Russia of 'military invasion'

Ukraine's parliament sent an urgent plea to the U.N. Security Council for a meeting on the crisis and adopted a resolution demanding Russia halt actions it says are aimed at splitting Crimea from the rest of the country.

Unionist

If any of this is true - that the new thugs who have replaced the old thugs are calling on the U.S. and U.K. to intervene in their "defence" - then please join me in prayer that the bloodsoaked earth of Ukraine is swiftly partitioned and reduced to irrelevancy in world affairs:

[url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10667111/Ukrain... pleads for Britain and US to come to its rescue as Russia accused of 'invasion'[/url]

onlinediscountanvils

[url=http://pando.com/2014/02/28/pierre-omidyar-co-funded-ukraine-revolution-... Omidyar co-funded Ukraine revolution groups with US government, documents show[/url]

Pando has confirmed that the American government – in the form of the US Agency for International Development (USAID) – played a major role in funding opposition groups prior to the revolution. Moreover, a large percentage of the rest of the funding to those same groups came from a US billionaire who has previously worked closely with US government agencies to further his own business interests. This was by no means a US-backed “coup,” but clear evidence shows that US investment was a force multiplier for many of the groups involved in overthrowing Yanukovych.

But that’s not the shocking part.

What’s shocking is the name of the billionaire who co-invested with the US government (or as Wheeler put it: the “dark force” acting on behalf of “Pax Americana”).

Step out of the shadows…. Wheeler’s boss, Pierre Omidyar.

Yes, in the annals of independent media, this might be the strangest twist ever: According to financial disclosures and reports seen by Pando, the founder and publisher of Glenn Greenwald’s government-bashing blog,“The Intercept,” co-invested with the US government to help fund regime change in Ukraine.

 

Posting here, but discussion might be more suited to the media forum.

Of the many problems that poses, none is more serious than the fact that Omidyar now has the only two people with exclusive access to the complete Snowden NSA cache, Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras. Somehow, the same billionaire who co-financed the “coup” in Ukraine with USAID, also has exclusive access to the NSA secrets—and very few in the independent media dare voice a skeptical word about it.

arielc

http://ww2.nationalpost.com/m/wp/blog.html?b=news.nationalpost.com/2014/... President Barack Obama is warning Russia there will be “costs” if Russia intervenes militarily in Ukraine.“The United States will stand with the international community in affirming that there will be costs for any military intervention in Ukraine,” Obama said in a short statement Thursday afternoon.

 

If a US government agency did intervene to support the Ukranian opposition in ousting the government, then it's pretty disingenuous of Obama to threaten Russia for intervening.

NorthReport

I suppose when you are the most powerful nation on planet Earth then to a certain extent you do what you want

Analysis: U.S. and Russia playing chess or blood sport?

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/22/world/analysis-russia-united-states/index....

sherpa-finn

I tend to agree with NorthReport's assessment that The Guardian is one of the few relaible sources of credible information on this (and other) crises.

But in response to earlier Bec.de.Corbin's observation (incredulity?) about the remarkable rise of Nazi power and influence over the past few weeks, let me suggest an article from this weeks NY Review of Books entitled Fascism, Russia and Ukraine.  

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/mar/20/fascism-russia-and-ukraine/?pagination=false

While the analysis  will not likely resonate with some Babblers, - amongst other points, the author connects the dots between those who "echo Kremlin propaganda, spreading the word in English that Ukrainian protesters have carried out a Nazi coup and started a civil war" and that old crowd of political wingnuts associated with Lyndon Larouche.

josh

Snyder's paen to the EU, which is responsible for the suffering of the Greek people, is only exceeded in its reprehensiveness by his minimizing of the role of Russia in the defeat of Hitler.  Who did the fighting at Stalingrad and Moscow?  

NDPP

onlinediscountanvils wrote:

 

Posting here, but discussion might be more suited to the media forum.

Of the many problems that poses, none is more serious than the fact that Omidyar now has the only two people with exclusive access to the complete Snowden NSA cache, Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras. Somehow, the same billionaire who co-financed the “coup” in Ukraine with USAID, also has exclusive access to the NSA secrets—and very few in the independent media dare voice a skeptical word about it.

One did. Arthur Silber. I posted it in the Greenwald thread:  The Doctrine of Exceptionalism Extends Its Reach

http://rabble.ca/comment/1428283#comment-1428283

As for Omidyar's helping hand in the Ukraine coup:

'The definition of fascism is the marriage of  corporation and state' - Mussolini

looks like we've arrived...

onlinediscountanvils

Ah, thanks, NDPP.

NDPP

Thank you o-l-d, a good catch on PANDO..

 

Yanukovich Denies Ouster, Says 'Ashamed and Guilty' For Not Preventing Chaos (and vid)

http://rt.com/news/yanukovich-ousted-president-russia-203/

"It is the current Ukrainian parliament parliament that is 'not legitimate', the Ukrainian leader said, adding that the people who took power in Kiev are 'spreading the propaganda of violence'.

'As you know, the power in Ukraine has been seized by nationalist-fascist-like fellows representing the absolute minority of Ukrainians. The only existing way out of the situation is fulfilling all that was stipulated in the [February 21] agreement between the president of the Ukraine and the opposition with participation of the foreign ministers of France, German and Poland, and a representative of the Russian Federation,' Yanukovich said.

He described the situation in Ukraine as 'complete lawlessness', 'terror' and 'chaos', saying that the politicians, including MPs have been threatened and are facing threats of violence.

US and other countries' representatives 'must take full responsibility' for the fact that the agreement between the president and the opposition leaders was not honored,' he said..."

 

Ukraine Turmoil: LIVE UPDATES

http://rt.com/news/kiev-clashes-rioters-police-571/

"...About 30 people who identified themselves as members of the Kiev Maidan defense squad have attacked the office of the father of the former Minister of Energy and Coal of Ukraine, Eduard Stavisky...When the men entered the property in the center of Kiev, they began to smash windows and looted the valuables. 

In particular they were trying to steal a plasma TV, documents and antique-looking souvenir objects..

The US State Department has warned Americans citizens against trips to Crimea, Donetsk and Kharkov due to 'instability following Yanukovich's ouster and the organization of the new government,' it said in a statement.

US President Barack Obama made his own address from the White House, expressing his nation's 'concerns' about 'reports' of 'military movements' inside Ukraine. 'The United States will stand with the international community in affirming that there will be costs for any military intervention in Ukraine,' he warned.."

 

 

 

NDPP

Ukrainian Democracy: A Barrier to Washington's Goals

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/02/28/ukrainian-democracy-a-barrier-to-...

"...a recent survey conducted by a center for economic and political research suggests that up to 40 percent of Ukrainians believe that relations with Russia should be a priority.' Meanwhile, '28 percent gave preference to the EU' and '2 percent said that relations with the US should be a foreign policy priority.'

Another survey suggested 'that almost two-thirds of the population would consider supporting a political union with Russia,' Bereuter concluded. 'So,' he went on, 'I think that United States policy must remain focused' on incorporating Ukraine ' into European and Euro-Atlantic structures.'

The Atlantic Council's Damon Wilson, speaking before the US Senate's Subcommittee on European Affairs - the topic was 'Ukraine at a Crossroads' in Feb 2012 explained that 'Ukraine's genuine European integration remained a major objective.'

Now Al Jazeera reports that the acting president, Oleksander Turchinov, has 'made clear that Kiev's European integration would be a priority,' thereby giving Ukrainians what we're told they want.

But British and US governmental studies reveal the Ukrainian public is ambivalent about European integration. This bleak situation called for a propaganda offensive or 'a national public awareness Campaign of Arguments' as the British dubbed it, which was to 'be aimed at the general public as its primary target audience.'

British advisers urged PR teams 'to formulate advertising slogans, global and targeted messages,' and to play up 'the European civilizational model and other benefits the AA allegedly would bring..."

 

 

The Massive PSYOP Employed Against Ukraine by GCH and NSA 

http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2014/02/28/massive-psyop-employed-...

"...President Viktor Yanukovich fell more quickly than either Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak or Libyan leader Muammar Qaddafi simply because the Western corporate media fully cooperated in FIVE EYES efforts to activate armies of sock puppets with aliases who disseminated anti-Yanukovych propaganda and, with the assistance of the global corporate news media, 'pushed stories'.

In the case of Ukraine, the 'pushed stories' were products of CIA, NSA, CGHQ, British MI6 and Communications Security Establishment Canada (CSEC) propaganda mills working in close collaboration with such intelligence agency fronts as Soros's Open Society Institute, Freedom House, Hudson Institute, Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), Heritage Foundation, and Demos of the UK.."

 

Dr Strangelove on the Ukraine

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/02/28/dr-strangelove-over-ukraine/

"...Viktor Yanukovych is a crook, yet the appearance of Yulia Tymeshenko merely represents the return of ethnic Ukrainian oligarchs. It also means nothing or little will change on economic policy. Yanukovych resisted the imposition of 'structural adjustment' designed to ensure foreign bondholders get paid.

The new Ukrainian government will ensure bondholders get paid through an IMF and/or ECB stabilization program. THe US/EU plan would continue loading down Ukraine with debt and through this means control over their economic policy..."

     *                                                                   -                                                                           *

"Today on the Maidan, the entire Canadian delegation paid our respects to the fallen. Their sacrifice in defence of democracy and freedom has brought change to this great country. They will not be forgotten.

Their sacrifices have put Ukraine squarely on a path which leads to stability, prosperity and a political and business culture that is free from corruption.'

Baird was leading a delegation of Conservative MPs and Ukrainian-Canadian community leaders on the visit."

Ukraine Crisis: NDP Questions $80,000 Arms Sales To Yanukovych Regime

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/02/28/ukraine-crisis-ndp-john-baird_n_...

NDPP

Gunmen From Kiev Attempted to Seize Crimea's Interior Ministry Overnight - Russia (and vid)

http://rt.com/news/russia-crimea-sieze-gunmen-344/

"Unknown armed men from Kiev have tried to seize the Crimean Interior Ministry overnight.

PM Aksyonov said he asked Russia's President Vladimir Putin to 'help ensure peace and calm on the territory of the autonomous region.'

A source in the Kremlin administration replied that 'Russia won't ignore that address,' Russia's major news agencies reported..."

cco

NDPP wrote:

Ukraine Crisis: NDP Questions $80,000 Arms Sales To Yanukovych Regime

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/02/28/ukraine-crisis-ndp-john-baird_n_...


Quote:

A senior government official, who was not authorized to speak on the record, said the exports went to "private entities and not to military and police."

An official in Baird's office in Ottawa later pointed to a section of the report that said: "Most firearms exports from Canada are intended for sporting or other recreational use and not for military use."

Are you fucking kidding me? That's their excuse? We sold 20mm autocannons to Ukrainian deer hunters?

Gosh, I wonder what other "private entities" in Ukraine might find a need for that kind of heavy artillery. Good thing that treaty didn't go through, or Canadian hunters might find it hard to buy the same kind of weaponry.

NDPP

Russian Senators Vote To Use Stabilizing Military Military Forces on UKrainian Territory (and vid)

http://rt.com/news/russia-ukraine-approve-miltary-371/

"Russia's Federation Council has unanimously approved President Vladimir Putin's request to use Russian military forces in Ukraine."

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

NDPP wrote:

Russian Senators Vote To Use Stabilizing Military Military Forces on UKrainian Territory (and vid)

http://rt.com/news/russia-ukraine-approve-miltary-371/

"Russia's Federation Council has unanimously approved President Vladimir Putin's request to use Russian military forces in Ukraine."

Wow, a double military military force! What could possably go wrong with that?

(and oh by the way, those uniformed unknown gunmen that keep showing up are Russian hired security contractors. Read into that whatever you want. You learned it first here.) 

cco

Calls in Kiev to ‘regain nuclear status in six months’

Quote:

"We’ll regain our status as a nuclear power and that’ll change the conversation. Ukraine has all the technological means needed to create a nuclear arsenal – which would take us about three to six months,” Svoboda party MP Mikhail Golovko said.

The rhetoric, which contradicts the international nuclear non-proliferation treaty Ukraine signed in 1994, is not new for the Svoboda party, one of the driving forces behind the Maidan uprising. Its leader, Oleg Tyagnibok, already promised that the country would go nuclear while he was running for the presidency in 2009.

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Russian troops take over Ukraine's Crimea region

 

Quote:

 Russian troops took over Crimea as the parliament in Moscow gave President Vladimir Putin a green light Saturday to use the military to protect Russian interests in Ukraine. The newly installed government in Kiev was powerless to react to the action by Russian troops based in the strategic region and more flown in, aided by pro-Russian Ukrainian groups. 

That was fast.

NorthReport

THE UN's structure is kind of pathetic letting the so-called "big five" off the hook any time they wish.

Ukraine PM warns of war as Russian military seizes control in Crimea• Kiev puts armed forces on full combat alert
• Putin and Obama hold 90-minute call over crisis
• UN security council meets for emergency talks

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/01/ukraine-warns-russia-milita...

6079_Smith_W

cco wrote:
Calls in Kiev to ‘regain nuclear status in six months’
Quote:

"We’ll regain our status as a nuclear power and that’ll change the conversation. Ukraine has all the technological means needed to create a nuclear arsenal – which would take us about three to six months,” Svoboda party MP Mikhail Golovko said.

The rhetoric, which contradicts the international nuclear non-proliferation treaty Ukraine signed in 1994, is not new for the Svoboda party, one of the driving forces behind the Maidan uprising. Its leader, Oleg Tyagnibok, already promised that the country would go nuclear while he was running for the presidency in 2009.

Not that it justifies Golovko's rhetoric, but I think that treaty was just broken by one of the other signators.

Besides, Svoboda isn't really in a position to set government policy.

cco

Though ratification of the two went hand in hand, Ukraine's participation in the Non-Proliferation Treaty is not contingent upon the Budapest Memorandum being in force. (They could abrogate it, of course, with a six-month delay, just as North Korea did.)

Svoboda currently holds three ministries including the position of deputy prime minister, and also controls the prosecutor-general's office. That's not influencing government policy?

6079_Smith_W

Sure, but again, though one might see his outrage as being justified (since, as you say, the two agreements went hand in hand) he is in mo more position to influence the government of the day than John McCain is in the U.S.

I trust someone here at rabble will be johnny on the spot to let us know when the fascist usurpers make their inevitable power play for world nuclear domination.

 

 

 

cco

Smith, I think we cross-posted (well, cross-edited) above.

Do you think Ukraine should have nuclear weapons?

While we're on the subject of broken agreements from 20 years ago, it's interesting to note that the US has fairly blatantly violated the CFE treaty, reneged on its assurances that NATO would never expand east of the Oder-Neisse Line, and has had no compunction about interfering in Ukrainian politics in violation of the same Budapest Memorandum whenever it suits them. Two wrongs and all that, but surely Putin is taking this into account as he makes his decisions.

And see my above edit re: Svoboda.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Ukraine: "Go West, Young Man"

By Jeffrey Sommers & Michael Hudson

“Let them loot.” That is the demand of the West when its NGO subsidiaries firebomb government buildings, murder policemen and loot the arms depots of military forts. Kiev is the equivalent of Kosovo as a Slavic city-of-origin. Are we seeing a replay?

What would Dick Cheney (or President Obama for that matter) have done if Russian NGOs sponsored separatist movements in Texas, California or New England? How would US police have reacted against armed revolutionaries seizing the armory and throwing Molotov cocktails and bombs at public buildings, killing police, painting swastikas on Jewish houses and claiming vigilante justice? While this does not characterize all of the Ukrainian protesters, it does reflect a fair number of them. If this is Obama’s “reset” with Russia, he is resetting the Cold War by setting the neocons loose in the former Soviet republics. If there is one thing that the CIA has shown its competence in, it is in setting one ethnic group against the others – Sunni vs Shiite, Kurd against Arab, Persian against them all. When other countries seek to defend a multi-ethnic secular state, the US foreign office has backed the fundamentalists for nearly the past half-century in all cases. This should be the sub-text for reporting on the Ukrainian uprising that seems to have been carefully timed to coincide with Sochi.

Events in Ukraine are provided enough heat to overshadow the conclusion of the Sochi Olympics. Since the USSR’s collapse, the “reset” has been changed many times during our long-running Ukrainian “play,” but the underlying theme remains the same as it has been in the Near East: Play the ethnic card to break the country into pieces if you want to disable government regulatory power and investment. Co-opt a client oligarchy whose opportunities for the West lie in privatizing public resources and selling shares in the rent-extracting companies on Western stock exchanges. Keep your proceeds in the West and fritter it away on trophy real estate, ownership of sports clubs and London or Swiss bank accounts....

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/22131-ukraine-go-west-young-man-or...

6079_Smith_W

No I don't cco.

Do you honestly think they're going to get them? Or that if they tried they'd get the chance to get that far?

That is to say, if this is all it took for Russia to draw a line in the sand over Crimea (first being coy, and now no longer bothering) what do you think they'd do if their neighbour actually posed any sort o f threat?

 

 

 

cco

They'd invade, of course (which they very well may anyway). I think it's informative to compare Western reactions to Iran denying it wants nuclear weapons versus members of the Ukrainian governing coalition openly saying they want them, though. If so much as a city councillor in Iran said Iran should have nuclear weapons to protect it against Israel, you know it'd be front-page news for the next six weeks.

sherpa-finn

Ukraine: The Haze of Propaganda

http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/mar/01/ukraine-haze-propaganda/?insrc=hpss

Students, immigrants, Jews, feminists and gays ... out in the streets in their tens of thousand challenging a ruthless and violent dictator. and being shot down for their troubles.  Babblers salute you!

Well, apart from those of us who find that your aspiration to be part of a liberal democratic Europe doesn't quite fit with our analysis of the world and what you should really want.  (And didnt anyone tell you that you are all being manipulated by neo-Nazis? And the IMF?)  

 

Unionist

Geez, sherpa-finn, you believe just about anything, don't you?

The soil of Ukraine is soaked in the blood of my family. The "students" and others whom you hail include the followers of Bandera. I don't wish upon them the same fate as the millions who perished at the hands of their heroes and parents and grandparents. Nor do I salute them.

Sound harsh? I had to sit down, relax, and dial it back before saying what I really feel.

But let's be a little more rational. Anyone who suggests taking sides in this dispute within the Ukraine should be condemned. Roundly. Let them settle their own problems without interference. Let them kill each other off, if that's what they really want. I won't shed a tear.

But to endanger the peace of Europe and the world over their fanatical and fratricidal stupidity? Not.

NDPP

US Seeks Nuclear War With Russia, China: Pundit (and vid)

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/03/01/352754/us-out-to-wage-nuclear-w...

"The US and its NATO allies are capitalizing on the crisis in Ukraine to justify a nuclear war against Russia and China, a political analyst tells Press TV. In a Friday interview, Mike Billington warned  that as a result of Washington's provocations regarding the Ukrainian crisis, the international community is 'on the brink of a global thermonuclear war..."

 

'West Uses Ukraine to Target Russia' (and vid)

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/03/01/352776/west-uses-ukraine-to-tar...

"Press TV has talked with Mahdi Darius Nezamroaya geopolitical analyst from Ottawa to discuss the political crisis in Ukraine."

 

Nazi Nationalist Leader Calls on 'Most Wanted' Nazi Umarov 'To Act Against Russia'

http://rt.com/news/yarosh-nationalist-address-umarov-380/

"Yarosh's outrageous plea to terrorist Doku Umarov exhibits the 'guts of the so-called new Ukrainian authorities', Chairman of the Presidium of the Russian Congress of Peoples of the Caucasus told Itar-Tass.

The Russian Foreign Minister's commissioner for human rights, Konstantin Dolgov said that Moscow awaits the West's reaction to Yarosh's appeal to Umarov:

'The Ukrainian neo-fascist Yarosh has appealed to terrorist Umarov,' Polgov wrote on Twitter. 'Does the West place their stake on such Ukrainian 'democrats'? Will they react to this?"

The Canadian ambassador reportedly met with Pravy Sektor in the Maidan and expressed approval..

 

 

Duma Says Possible Use of Russian Army in Ukraine Has Humanitarian Purpose

http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/721606

"...Chairman of the State Dumas Committee on CIS Affairs and Ties with Compatriots, Leonid Slutsky said the decision was timely. 'We are witnessing and participating in a civilizational clash 'for' and 'against' a one-polar world order. Russia has always been against this, but the West is trying to separate Ukraine from the Russian world, from Russia and from integration processes in the post -Soviet region in all possible ways,' the MP said.

He stressed that the current developments in Ukraine 'are an anti-constitutional coup that threatens the security and life of our compatriots, their fundamental rights and freedoms. We cannot remain indifferent to this. We must ensure security, primarily in Crimea and a region that is the bulwark of resistance to the coup and armed seizure of power in Kiev,' Stursky said.

He noted that Russia could and had a right to deploy a limited contingent of troops in Crimea for the purpose of preserving the Russian Black Sea Fleet and the lives of our compatriots in Crimea..."

 

NDPP

Ukraine Was A Playbook CIA Coup d'etat  -  by Prof Francis Boyle

http://www.countercurrents.org/boyle280214.htm

"The very first act of the western-backed insurrectionists which represent a small percentage of the population and have managed to overthrow the government was to attempt to rob Russian speakers in Ukraine of their language.

This denial by the Bandera nazi extremists and the illegitimate power in Kiev of a basic human right for a huge percentage of the population runs contrary to international law and the European Convention of Human Rights to which Ukraine is a signatory.

According to Professor Boyle what happened in Kiev was a playbook coup d'etat by CIA. Victoria Nuland, the Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs, working with the US Ambassador, were instrumental in carrying out the coup d'etat, as it has been proven they were working with 'the brown shirts': Svoboda, the Right Sector, the Bandera Nazis and skinheads..."

 

Ukraine Crisis: US Power Grab for Hegemony: Analyst (and vid)

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/03/01/352804/ukraine-crisis-us-power-...

"Press TV has conducted an interview with James Petras, political analyst, New York, about Ukraine's Presient Yanukovych saying he was stripped of his power by pro-fascist mobs and he will continue to fight.

'I think the Western media have done a disservice by publicizing the violent minority which seized power in that putsch'. A putsch is not an election, it's not a basis for a legitimate government.

I think Yanukovych has all the rights in the world to claim legitimacy and make an effort to return to the country. I think the Russian government in all sincerity thought it had negotiated a transitional agreement and made all sorts of concessions.

Instead, the opposition took advantage of these concessions to grab power and impose authoritarian rule, which is undermining the legitimacy of the political class. I think we're heading for a violent period of confrontation and I'm fearful that this will spread throughout the Caucasus.

I think Washington is operating with a double agenda. I don't think their diplomatic discourse has anything to do with their political practice. At the time they signed the agreement with the Russian mediator, they were also channeling close to five billion dollars to finance the 'demonstrators'.

You've got a case here of professional demonstrators that draw a salary for each Molotov cocktail they throw. It's an appalling situation but it's part of a power grab by the US..."

 

Ukraine Crisis: Canada, US Tell Russia To Withdraw Forces - Canada Recalls Ambassador (and vid)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-crisis-canada-u-s-tell-russia-to-wi...

"Canada recalled its ambassador from Moscow Saturday and suspended its engagement in preparations for the G8 Summit, currently planned for Sochi, in a move condemning Russian President Vladimir Putin's military intervention in Ukraine.

'Canada recognizes the legitimacy of the Government of Ukraine.' Harper said in a statement. 'Ukraine's sovereign territory must be respected and the Ukrainian people must be free to determine their own future. We call on President Putin to immediately withdraw his forces to their bases and refrain from further provocative and dangerous actions.'

The request from Obama and Harper appeared to go unheeded as the Kremlin said Putin, in turn, emphasized the existence of real threats to the life and health of Russian citizens living in Ukraine and that Russia has the right to protect its interests there.

Ukraine has accused Russia of 'a military intervention and occupation'..."

6079_Smith_W

Unionist wrote:

The "students" and others whom you hail include the followers of Bandera. I don't wish upon them the same fate as the millions who perished at the hands of their heroes and parents and grandparents. Nor do I salute them.

And you think it's not also soaked in the blood of the people you lump in with the "followers of Bandera"?

The best thing you say there is warning about taking sides. So why do you say nothing about all this rhetoric about fascists and coups? And while I understand your feelings, how can you reasonably lump together anti-semites with others who have nothing to do with it, or who oppose them?

I think you 're right about Canadian politicians not knowing what is going on over there, That goes double for armchair cheerleaders. I don't know how anyone here can claim to identify absolute villains and heroes in this; In a region soaked in as much blood and genocide as you say (and it truly was; I have friends who lost family; thing is, they weren't only Jewish, but also Ukrainian, Tartar, and Volga German) I wouldn't claim to pass judgment like that.

I sympathize with your outrage, but going that way does nothing but perpetuate the cycle of misery that has been going on there for centuries.

But I can say that what matters most isn't a deal with Europe, the U.S. picking a winner  or Russia retaining its  "living room", it's what the Ukrainian people - in all regions of that divided nation - want.

abnormal

I can't resist

 

So, back in 2008, then VP-candidate Sarah Palin said of Obama's response to the Russian invasion of Georgia that "After the Russian army invaded the nation of Georgia, Senator Obama's reaction was one of indecision and moral equivalence – the kind of response that would only encourage Russia's Putin to invade Ukraine next".

Needless to say, all the left-wing elites had a fine time making fun of her comment, e.g. Foreign Policy magazine called it "an extremely far-fetched scenario". Given that that's what that august publication called it, one can image what the less tasteful and tactful commentators on the left were saying of her.

Well, guess who's having the last laugh now...

Palin's recent Tweet on the subject? "I could see this one [coming] from Alaska."

Over to you, Tina Fey.

josh

You mean he waited 6 years and a semi-coup to take advantage Obama's "weakness"? Hardly Hitler marching through the lowlands. Under Palin's "reasoning," Russia should have been up to the gates of Berlin 4 years ago. And, as I recall, Georgia was when Bush was president. Was that Obama's fault too?

Next time, resist the urge.

6079_Smith_W

Actually josh, I took abnomral's example of Palin's political insight to be on the order of this public affairs program's spot-on analysis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYCvOmQLgS0

And the comment about "left wing elites making fun"? Well if you're going to take is so seriously that you have to point out how Putin isn't Hitler (I mean, do you honesly think that fluke changes Palin's reputation?), clearly there is still a place for jibes like that.

I saw an article on it yesterday; I laughed.

Back to you, Amy.

 

(edit)

And another perspective on it:

http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/mar/01/ukraine-haze-propaganda/

 

 

josh

The third time Snyder's faulty piece has been cited on this thread.

6079_Smith_W

The second time, I think you mean. Sherpa-finn posted it yesterday (the day it was published), so thanks for the correction.

As for faulty, perhaps you can point to an article in this thread which is without omission or fault. I said it was another perspective. I think one has to be pretty foolish, especially in a situation like this, to think they are going to get the whole truth and no spin from any one source.

 

 

cco

John Kerry on Face the Nation this morning:

Quote:
You just don’t in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped up pre-text.

Offered without comment.

6079_Smith_W

What's the message there, cco?

That outside obervers sometimes read their own, often hypocritical biases into things, rather than looking at what is actually happening?

I'd agree with that.

 

sherpa-finn

Unionist said: Geez, sherpa-finn, you believe just about anything, don't you?

Hey, Unionist - I am aware of your family history and I am sorry for that. (That doesn't quite cover the horror - I do appreciate.)

But I have my own lived experience to bring to these conversations: over the years, my work has taken me to many different global 'hot spots' for shorter and longer periods of time. And I have seen 'on the ground' both how the masses of ordinary people are victimised in such conflicts - and how different media and political interests spin their interpretations for their different audiences. So while I have a particular take on international issues, I will humbly suggest that it is rooted in a political analysis (that may well differ from yours) but that is not unduly naive.

As to Snyder's article that you dismiss so lightly: I have no doubt whatsoever that the marchers in Kiev included followers of diverse - and perhaps repugnant - political movements.  Just as we have had blackshirts, trotskyites, nationalists and others on the streets in the assorted anti-globalization marches here closer to home. Popular protest movements are by definition a very big tent and assorted political interests (legitimate and otherwise) do their best to use and manipulate them for their own purposes. That's a simple reality of political life.

But on your suggestion to stand back and "Let them kill each other off, if that's what they really want. I won't shed a tear."  well I personally feel quite differently.   

My experience of civil conflicts is that most tend to comprise 5% of angry / crazy / delusional guys with guns, greed and ambition, and 95% of regular ordinary folks just wanting to go about their lives, raise their kids, etc.  And the 95% deserve better.

What, when and how people, states and institutions act in response will no doubt depend on circumstances and perceived interests. So no naivety there, either. I understand the dynamics of the global chess game. But unless one is a believer in "pie in the sky when you die" (and my sense is you don't) - it should all be about keeping the 95% safe, alive and in control of their own destinies as much as any of us can claim in this world. 

PS. Unionist, I appreciate that you "dialed it back" before saying what you did. Your perspective and passion still come through loud and clear.  I have tried to reciprocate. 

Unionist

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Unionist wrote:

The "students" and others whom you hail include the followers of Bandera. I don't wish upon them the same fate as the millions who perished at the hands of their heroes and parents and grandparents. Nor do I salute them.

And you think it's not also soaked in the blood of the people you lump in with the "followers of Bandera"?

I don't give a fuck about murderers, my friend. You want me to weep over the dead Wehrmacht and SS collaborators, over the Waffen SS, over the pogromists? Do you have a single clue about what happened in Western Ukraine from 1941 to 1944? No, I didn't think so, otherwise you wouldn't make such an offensive comment. When I see Bandera's name and image paraded in the streets of Kyiv, it's all I can do to remember that I don't give a damn what the different sides there do to each other. But I manage to maintain my ineffable calm. Breathing deeply, eyes closed, lotus position.

Quote:
The best thing you say there is warning about taking sides. So why do you say nothing about all this rhetoric about fascists and coups?

Whoops. In the first sentence, you appear to agree about not taking sides. That only lasted one sentence.

Quote:
And while I understand your feelings, how can you reasonably lump together anti-semites with others who have nothing to do with it, or who oppose them?

I never once did so. You think I'm referring to all the opposition forces in Ukraine as followers of Bandera or anti-semites? I apologize for not having written clearly. I have no such opinion. I'm sure there are good, kind, progressive souls on all sides of the dispute there. What I'm saying is, we should not interfere, intervene, interest ourselves unduly. Harper and his newfound sympathizers Cheri DiNovo and Peggy Nash should be locked in their homes until they get over themselves.

Quote:
I don't know how anyone here can claim to identify absolute villains and heroes in this; In a region soaked in as much blood and genocide as you say (and it truly was; I have friends who lost family; thing is, they weren't only Jewish, but also Ukrainian, Tartar, and Volga German) I wouldn't claim to pass judgment like that.

Then stop doing it. Stop passing judgment. But if you praise Bandera, you will be called appropriate names. I haven't heard you do that.

Quote:
But I can say that what matters most isn't a deal with Europe, the U.S. picking a winner  or Russia retaining its  "living room", it's what the Ukrainian people - in all regions of that divided nation - want.

At last, we agree.

sherpa-finn

This is what will happen in Ukraine ... remember, you heard it from Mother Jones first. Now Babblers, everyone can go out and enjoy the Canadian winter.

If you do want to fret about Ukraine, I have just the thing for you. I'm going to tell you how this will all unfold...

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2014/03/wee-prediction-about-ukraine

quizzical

sherpa-finn wrote:
Unionist said: Geez, sherpa-finn, you believe just about anything, don't you?

But on your suggestion to stand back and "Let them kill each other off, if that's what they really want. I won't shed a tear."  well I personally feel quite differently.   

My experience of civil conflicts is that most tend to comprise 5% of angry / crazy / delusional guys with guns, greed and ambition, and 95% of regular ordinary folks just wanting to go about their lives, raise their kids, etc.  And the 95% deserve better.

 

i don't know family history as you seem to...but i found the comment way beyond belief and unacceptable.

not sure about the 95% seeing as how followers always follow the people they think are in control or will be.

 

cco

6079_Smith_W wrote:

What's the message there, cco?

That outside obervers sometimes read their own, often hypocritical biases into things, rather than looking at what is actually happening?

I'd agree with that.

 

My only message was that John Kerry is a shameless clown whose chutzpah knows no bounds and that I'm deeply ashamed of ever voting for the little soldier boy. If he wants to lecture someone about wars launched on false pretenses, I'm sure one of his six 23-room homes has a mirror somewhere.

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