"Anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism" - Canada's immigration minister

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Unionist

Stockholm - in threads about freeing Omar Khadr, you rant about his family's attitude to homosexuality. In a thread about Harperite attacks on Arabs and attempts to suppress anti-Israel politics, you talk about Stalin and Mugabe. Is there a method behind this madness that I am missing?

I think what Jason Kenney did is dangerous and worthy of discussion. I don't want to single you out, because if one scans this thread, there's a lot of diversion that has gone on, much of it from certain people who have shown a lot of sympathy with the "anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism" libel. I'm still hoping that there are some babblers prepared to discuss the issue I raised in the OP, or if they find it too boring, then post their valuable contributions in other threads.

I suggest Kenney be held to account for this speech, and that we try to get political representatives to comment on this issue.

Stockholm

My first comment in this thread was to derisively scorn Kenney's comments. I'm not sure how many times you want me to jump up and down and flap wings repeating my scorn for his comments before you'll deem it sufficient. 

Unionist

Stockholm wrote:
My first comment in this thread was to derisively scorn Kenney's comments. I'm not sure how many times you want me to jump up and down and flap wings repeating my scorn for his comments before you'll deem it sufficient. 

I appreciated and supported your first comment - but what the hell happened to this thread after that? And I repeat, I don't mean to single you out. But look at all this diversionary crap.

Stockholm

I think we all got diverted because there was unanimity that Kenney's comments were stupid and so there was nothing else to say. How many times do you expect people to go back and forth and back and forth saying the same thing over and over again and expressing agreement with one another.

In case you haven't noticed, the threads that get 100 postings are the ones where people in babble express some disagreement with each other or where things digress. The threads that die after just a couple of posts are ones where virtually everyone is on the same page and there is nothing more to be said.

al-Qa'bong

Unionist wrote:
Star Spangled Canadian wrote:
Isn't the CAF the group that passed around literature at the last Liberal leadership convention imploring people not to vote for Bob Rae because his wife is a Jew?
That "blood libel" type big lie was amply refuted on this board at the time. Thanks for reviving this trash.

I'm glad you responded to this Star-Spangled crud before I had the chance to reply.

As a member of the CAF, I receive plenty of notices about activities of theirs in Toronto (I think I'm the only member in Saskatchewan), many of which are held in conjuction with Jewish groups.  Just today I received a bulletin from the CAF, forwarding a message from Abraham Weizfeld  of the Alliance of Concerned Jewish Canadians regarding B'nai Brith's statement in the National Post a few days ago:

Quote:

Peace will be possible when Israel recognizes that the Palestinians have the same reciprocal rights as any other people, such as the Jewish People. Israel does not act on behalf of the Jewish community when it substitutes war for diplomacy and so we say, “Not In Our Name”. Israel is not denounced for being predominantly Jewish but for its military aggression. The B'nai Brith public statement, National Post Feb. 15/09, is written as if it were an order; "They must come forward to prevent Israeli Apartheid Week." What could possibly warrant such a drastic statement that requires the suspension of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and its provision for the freedom of expression? There would have to be another Holocaust requiring the intervention of all concerned peoples - or is this a facade of inflated language? That assault of words criticizing some demonstrators’ slogans is tantamount to denying the massacre inflicted upon the Palestinian refugees that harbour themselves in the Gaza strip - by the sanctified State of Israel. The current closure of Gaza limits provisions to 125 trucks a day; a minimum of 400 trucks are necessary. Even such limited aid has only been achieved due to the pressure exerted by Israel’s own allies including the European Union, the United Nations Organization and the U.S.A.  Claiming to defend the Jewish People, the B'nai Brith organization ignores the Christian fundamentalist supporters of Israel who cheer on the internecine bloodshed between Jewish and Palestinian people. The demonstrations objected to by the B’nai Brith seek security for both peoples and yet are denounced for being motivated by hatred for all that is Jewish. The great majority of Jewish people do not live in Israel and many oppose what Israel has done to the Palestinians. One such Jewish dissident is the subject of the B'nai Brith call for censorship, Ronnie Kasrils, the Jewish Lithuanian descendent who became South Africa's Minister of Intelligence Services (2004-2008). He is scheduled to speak for the ‘Israeli Apartheid Week’ in Montréal, March 4th at McGill University. Many Jewish and Palestinian demonstrators now say in harmony; “Jews and Arabs are united - Israel's wrongs must be righted.”  

Abraham Weizfeld
Administrative Secretary ACJC
Montréal
514.284.66.42            SaaLaHa@fokus. name 

 

It's interesting to note what SS Canadian didn't quote from that CTV article:

 

Quote:

Mouammar wrote on that website that the flyer had "nothing to do with Bob Rae's and his wife's religion and ethnicity but has a lot to do with their political views."

"It is well-known that Bob Rae himself is hostile to Palestinians and Arabs," Mouammar wrote.

He added that "his wife's leadership position in the Canadian Jewish Congress (CJC) should be a matter of concern to everyone" and went on to condemn the CJC as "an ardent supporter of Israel, lam basts (sic) anyone who dares to criticize Israel and resorts to undermining human rights and civil liberties to protect Israel's war crimes."

 

Quote:

But the flyer wasn't the only example of anti-Semitic attacks on Rae.

On another website, operated by a Montreal-based pro-Palestinian group, Liberals were urged about a week before the leadership vote: "Do not vote for Bob Rae, we're not looking or another Zionist PM."

The group recommended that delegates vote for Gerard Kennedy, the fourth-place contender whose dramatic decision to throw his support to Stephane Dion after the second ballot clinched the victory for Dion. It said that "voting for Bob Rae is a vote for the daily massacre in Palestine (and) . . . for a new Zionist PM in Canada."

The CTV article called these "anti-Semitic attacks," but then they would, wouldn't they?  Like Jason Kenney and so many others, anyone criticising Zionism, the State of Israel or even their supporters, is automatically labelled antisemitic. 

 

Stockholm

Well, I'm sorry but telling people not to elect Bob Rae as Liberal leader because we can't let Canada have a "Zionist Prime Minister" sounds awfully close to being a "coded" way of saying "Don't vote for Rae because his wife is a Jewess" or "Beware - Bob Rae is a secret agent of ZOG (Zionist Occupation Government)". What would people say if a Jewish group put out a leaflet saying "Don't vote for Gerard Kennedy - we can't let Canada have an Islamist Al-Qaeda supporting PM"??? We would all call it racist (and I agree)...ditto if someone said "Obama must be stopped because we can't let the next President of the US be a black power Mau-Mau (sic.)".

I think that if people actually want to advance the Palestinian cause at all - they should realize that shrieking the word "Zionist" as some sort of insulting epithet is totally counter-productive and will only make people dismiss the source of those comments.

Ironically, in December, Gerard Kennedy - the guy that the pro-Palestinian group was urging people to support - threw his support to..."Zionist (sic.)" Bob Rae. And, Ignatieff has now become leader and he seems to be even more pro-Israel than Rae is!

 

Lord Palmerston

Indeed, there is no difference between the Liberals and Tories on Israel anymore. 

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

Stockholm wrote:

What would people say if a Jewish group put out a leaflet saying "Don't vote for Gerard Kennedy - we can't let Canada have an Islamist Al-Qaeda supporting PM"??? We would all call it racist (and I agree)...ditto if someone said "Obama must be stopped because we can't let the next President of the US be a black power Mau-Mau (sic.)".

 

Yes we'd call it racist but who said something like that?  Do you have a link?

 

al-Qa'bong

Quote:
Well, I'm sorry but telling people not to elect Bob Rae as Liberal leader because we can't let Canada have a "Zionist Prime Minister" sounds awfully close to being a "coded" way of saying "Don't vote for Rae because his wife is a Jewess" or "Beware - Bob Rae is a secret agent of ZOG (Zionist Occupation Government)".

 

No it doesn't, except perhaps in your excited imagination. 

 

I know some like to equate Zionism with Paul Newman in Exodus, "making deserts bloom," or other such fairy tales, but for others, supporting Zionism equals supporting the continuing massacre, theft and dispossession of Palestinians.

Winnifred

I agree with Stockholm. While I may dislike what present day Zionism stands for, the CAF erred terribly in its demand that Rae not be elected leader because his wife was an officer of the Jewish Congress. I just think this is another way to say don't vote for Rae because he has a jewish wife who supports Israel. That is improper.

KenS

Winnifred and Stockholm, what you are saying is tautological.

"I just think this is another way to say don't vote for Rae because he has a jewish wife who supports Israel."

The CAF has said it is because Bob Rae and his wife are vocal Zionists.

Now I personally think that is not wise politics. But that isn't the point. The point is that the CAF said that they were oppossed to Bob Rae because he and his wife are vocal Zionists.

You say that really amounts to saying don't support him because his wife is a Jew. It would appear you buy into the equating of anti-zionism as anti-semitism.

Stockholm

If you choose to define "Zionist" as anyone who thinks Israel has a right to exist than I guess that makes about 95% of all Canadians "part of the global Zionist conspiracy". Gerard Kennedy was and is just as much a Zionist as Bob Rae is and for that matter I guess Jack Layton is also a Zionist. Oh and I guess anyone Palestinian who supports a two-state solution is also a Zionist - Mr. Abbas - step right up!!

 It just seems a little - shall we say - coincidental that you had 9 people running for the Liberal leadership and all with virtually identical policies on the Middle East, but the one candidate out of nine who has a family connection to Judaism is the only one that gets labelled a potential "Zionist Prime Minister"

Rae has also written a few articles about Sri Lanka that seem rather sympathetic to the Tamil cause. Oh my God he must be a TAMILIST or a "Hinduist" stop him before its too late!!!!  Just imagine if Rae's wife were a Tamil from Sri Lanka. Or better yet, imagine if his wife was Muslim and wore a hijab - I can bet you that people on the far right would be spreading vicious gossip that he was some sort of a Trojan horse for an Islamist takeover of Canada.

As has been explained a thousand times before, "Zionism" is a very specific ideology that came into existence in central and eastern Europe at the turn of the century in the wake of a series of bloody pogroms and in the wake of an out break of anti-semitism in France as a result of the Dreyfus case. It called for a Jewish homeland - period. To this day there are many Zionists who want either want to return every square inch of the occupied territories to the Palestinians including Jerusalem and there are Zionists who want a single bi-ethnic state exactly as some on this board advocate. The issue is not with "zionism" per se - its with the way that the far right in Israel has appropriated it to advance their own ends.

I don't spit out "Islamist" under my breath at anyone who supports a Palestinian state and I also wouldn't call people who supported the Catholic side in Northern Ireland "papists". 

Star Spangled C...

Well said, Stockholm. We can only imagine the outcry if anyone raised a candidate's wife being Muslim or Sikh as a reason not to vote for them.

KenS

Stockholm wrote:

If you choose to define "Zionist" as anyone who thinks Israel has a right to exist than I guess that makes about 95% of all Canadians "part of the global Zionist conspiracy". Gerard Kennedy was and is just as much a Zionist as Bob Rae is and for that matter I guess Jack Layton is also a Zionist. Oh and I guess anyone Palestinian who supports a two-state solution is also a Zionist - Mr. Abbas - step right up!!

 It just seems a little - shall we say - coincidental that you had 9 people running for the Liberal leadership and all with virtually identical policies on the Middle East, but the one candidate out of nine who has a family connection to Judaism is the only one that gets labelled a potential "Zionist Prime Minister"

I agree that the term Zionist is thrown around in a manner that is not helpful. I tend to use more descriptive terms like pro-Israeli, rabidly pro-Israeli or 'Israeli apologist' if we are specifically referring to someone who virtually always chooses to defend or rationalize whatever Israel is doing [which often takes the form of "I do not support _____ that Israel has done / everything Israel does, but....]

I also admitt that I have never read everytng that the CFA said around the Rae incident. I'm going on what has been said here.

And here it was pointed out that the CFA said that it was not because Rae's wife is Jewish, that it is because he and she are strong Zionists.

You are putting up a reductionist straw man saying that eveyone who supports Israel's right to exist gets called a Zionist, so isn't it supicious Bob Rae is singled out. Its only some people who call everyone even supportive of Israel's right to exist a Zionist.

It is misleading to merely describe Bob Rae's wife as just another someone who supports the right of Israel to exist. She's a leading member of the CJC. We can quibble about whether Zionist is the right thing to call her [and its not the term I would choose], but the CJC is more than just another group supporting Israel's right to exist.

KenS

Star Spangled Canadian wrote:
We can only imagine the outcry if anyone raised a candidate's wife being Muslim or Sikh as a reason not to vote for them.

And that is you showing your colours. Maybe I missed something, but I don't remember the CFA criticizing Rae because his wife is Jewish. 

Star Spangled C...

Right. They just call her a "Zionist" because "kike" has become politically incorrect.

KenS

My first reaction is to ignore you because you seem to be deliberately assinine.

But just to be sure:

I just said that the CFA said the objection was because Rae's wife is a Zionist. That it was never said it was because she is Jewish.

You have not given any evidence to the contrary.

But you keep repeating this canard. So do I take it that for you calling someone a Zionist makes them in fact anti-semitic? Or, what is just as bad: that you reserve the right to say without any evidence that someone in particular who says Zionist is in fact anti-semitic?

 

Caissa

And, by its proper definition, I am a Zionist.

KenS

Star Spangled Canadian wrote:
Right. They just call her a "Zionist" because "kike" has become politically incorrect.

Calling someone a kike is clearly anti-semitic. So your intent here is clear.

While I may be careful about who I call a Zionist. I'm clearly anti-Zionist.

You going to call me an anti-semite while you are at it?

And while we are at it, where do anti-zionist Jews like unionist fit in?

 Which brings us back to the opening post: that equating anti-zionism as anti-semitism IS an attempt to marginalize and silence people.

Star Spangled C...

KenS wrote:

I just said that the CFA said the objection was because Rae's wife is a Zionist. That it was never said it was because she is Jewish.

You have not given any evidence to the contrary.

As Stockholm pointed out, EIGHT other candidates in that race were ALL zionists. I'd say that Joe Volpe was probably the most hawkish on Israel. So why single out the ONE "zionist" with a Jewish wife?

Star Spangled C...

His family should be off-limits in the first place!

Unionist

Star Spangled Canadian wrote:
Right. They just call her a "Zionist" because "kike" has become politically incorrect.

You and your scummy remarks do not belong here.

Unionist

KenS wrote:

And while we are at it, where do anti-zionist Jews like unionist fit in?

I, and the mushrooming numbers of Jews like me, are the worst nightmare of the Star Spangled Americans. We represent the best in Judaism, the traditions of enlightenment, progress, solidarity - the traditions of the "Diaspora", of living among the nations. We are an accusing presence against the ethnocentric anti-Arab "me, myself, mine" of the B'nai Brith, the Israeli government, and the provocateurs who show their face on this board. We have suffered for our stand of principle, but it's so frigging insignificant compared to the suffering of the victims of U.S. imperialism and its Zionist Israeli handservant. We are the world, and we shall overcome.

KenS, addressed to the Star Spangled American wrote:

My first reaction is to ignore you because you seem to be deliberately assinine.

Trust your first reaction, Ken.

 

KenS

What you have said in this thread SCC is blatant testimony to how pervasive has been this equating of anti-zionism with anti-semitism.

[Not that you have been alone.]

KenS

Star Spangled Canadian wrote:
KenS wrote:

I just said that the CFA said the objection was because Rae's wife is a Zionist. That it was never said it was because she is Jewish.

You have not given any evidence to the contrary.

As Stockholm pointed out, EIGHT other candidates in that race were ALL zionists. I'd say that Joe Volpe was probably the most hawkish on Israel. So why single out the ONE "zionist" with a Jewish wife?

Like Stockholm you are trying to softpeddle "zionist" by saying that is just anyone who supports the right of Israel to exist. I unequivocally support the right of Israel to exist.

I don't know about Joe Volpe, and you don't have the credibility for me to accept your say-so that he is the most hawkish on Israel. But even if he was, having the most reservations about the candidate whose wife is a leading member of a group that actively and vociferously promotes Israeli positions in Canada is not, as you keep trying to pretend, singling her out simply "because she is Jewish".

Unionist

KenS wrote:

It would appear you buy into the equating of anti-zionism as anti-semitism.

Ken, you are debating with vocal supporters of Israel and vocal "critics" of the Palestinian people and their rights. Except that, being defenders of an unjust cause and knowing it, they play the anti-Semitic card.

Associating the Jewish people with the crimes of Israel is the height of anti-Semitism. And because some low-lifes around the world are bound to be influenced by such propaganda, Jewish lives are endangered, in Israel and elsewhere, by this blood libel.

The salvation of the Jewish people, now as in the past, is to identify with and be one with the struggles of people for liberation, wherever they are. For Jews in Canada, it means being one with all progressive causes here in Canada, and never accepting the neo-Nazi lies of a Jason Kenney that our "homeland" is somewhere else. It also means solidarity with the cause of people worldwide fighting for freedom - and, for the purpose of this subject, solidarity with the struggle of the Palestinian people.

KenS

Caissa wrote:
And, by its proper definition, I am a Zionist.
  

And you all have a perfect right to be Zionists. Further, your beliefs deserve respect that admittedly you don't always get around here.

But that does not excuse equating anti-zionism and anti-semitism. Let alone people here defending or rationalizing that.

Star Spangled C...

Not at all. I'd hardly call the Satmar hasidic sect "anti-Semitic" despite their being vehemently anti-Zionist since long before 1948.

At the same time, there's no doubt in my mind that some people do use "zionist" as a more socially acceptable substitute for "kike" just like I think some people use terms like "Islamist" as a more socially acceptable substitute for "raghead."

And i DO get suspicious when in a race between 8 people - ALL of whom could be labelled 'zionists" - the ONE guy who gets signled out for abuse is the same one guy who is married to a Jew. And i DO also get suspicious when, in a world overflowing with states that abuse human rights, certain people seem obsessed with singling out the ONE state with a majority Jewish citizenship.

KenS

I'm sure your suspicions are very convenient for you.

When people offer no evidence except their suspicions...

 

And no one said that you think every anti-zionist is an anti-semite, just that you are using the canard.

Pino

Im sure im not the only one that got confused reading your comments : zionism, judaism, pro-israeli, left, right...

What these words used to stand for and what the situation is today i presume is different.

Israeli govt is condemned as zionist and anti-judaic, anti-palestinian... but at the same time the govt members are religious, they celebrate shabbat and other judaic holidays. So don't we have here zinoists that are religious? or should we say zionist policies instead of zionist govt members ?

Pino

my question may sound naive, but imagine most of the voters that are miles away to make the difference... people here are only maybe 10% of voters

aka Mycroft

Pino wrote:

How do you know? did you know them in person? zinoist movement wasn't religious in its essence but individually they probably been religious..

Probably? You have no idea do you? I know because I've read the writings of early Zionist thinkers like Moses Hess, Borochov, Herzl, Gordon etc and also read books on them and yes, with few exceptions they were secular and either areligious or anti-religious. Conversely, most religious Jews, with very few exceptions such as Rabbi Kook, were anti-Zionist.

Star Spangled C...

Pino (or anyone else), if you want the single best resource in understanding the zionist movement, the best book I could recommend is an anthology called The Zionist Idea, which is edited by and features a great (lengthy and detailed) introduction by Arthur Hertzberg, one of the best scholars of contemporary Jewish thought of the last century.

Also, if you don't ahve the time or energy for that, jsut go to your local video store and pick up a copy of The Chosen, based on Chaim Potok's novel, as this dramatizes some of the conflict between religious and more secular Jews over the issue of zionism in the lead-up to the 1948 creation of Israel.

Stockholm

Why is it so difficult for people to label public figures who they deem to be "too uncritically pro-Israel" as "too uncritically pro-Israel" - instead of getting sidetracked with this red-herring of using the term Zionist as an ad hominem coded attack that smacks of calling people "communist fellow travelers" or "Islamists" or "papists"?

I'm sure that Tamils in Canada don't like politicians who they feel are too pro-Sinhalese. I don't here them calling such people "Sinhalists" or "Buddhist supremacists" etc...

 There is a long, long history in the later part of the 20th century of people "talking in code" and using "dog whistles" when they want to appeal to racist sentiments (before that no one cared and would openly be racist) and whether you like it or not saying that someone's political ambitions need to stopped because their Jewish wife is a "Zionist" or because we can let Canada have a "Zionist PM" is clearly non-so-subtle dog whistle for "stop this guy because his wife is a kike".

I agree that being "anti-Zionist" doesnt necessarily make a person an anti-semite (Can someone explain what it means to be anti-zionist and yet to also support Israel's right to exist?) - I think the issue is the tone and the way in which the term is being used. When people start hissing "stop the guy with Zionist wife" there is not the slightest doubt in my mind that it is just coded anti-semitism. 

Similarly when rightwing freaks in the US would go out of their way to speak of Barack HUSSEIN Obama with the middle name being said at triple the volume of the first and last name - it was clearly a coded appeal to anti-Muslim prejudice. It doesn't matter that Hussein is Obama's legal middle name - its the way in which it is being manipulated. 

Unionist

Why this diversionary bullshit? Because Jason Kenney said the CAF is anti-Semitic and he will cut off their funds. So instead of saying "I agree with Kenney", the cowardly Israel fans here pile on the CAF. Support for Harper's politics, support for Israel - and calling themselves Jews. I guess it takes all types to make a world, but our people have survived far greater adversities than these.

Stockholm

I'm not sure who you're referring to. I oppose Harper's politics and I am very critical of a lot of policies of the current Israeli government. But I do think that ad hominem attacks on "Zionists" can and often are a code way of pandering to anti-semitism and does nothing to help the Palestinian cause. If anything it only helps people like Kenney to peddle their crap.

al-Qa'bong

Actually, by equating "anti-Zionism" with "antisemitism," you're helping Kenney peddle his crap.

This just in from the CAF:

Quote:

 

 Canadian Arab FederationLa Fédération Canado-Arabe NEWS RELEASE  

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE February 19, 2009  Response to Mr. Jason Kenney, M.P.

The Canadian Arab Federation (CAF) finds it deeply regrettable that Canada's Minister of Immigration, Jason Kenney, has threatened to cut funding to newcomer service agencies served by the CAF and has used the remarks made by CAF’s president, Khaled Mouammar while Israel was committing war crimes in Gaza, as an excuse to malign and intimidate Arab and Muslim communities who have suffered and continue to suffer from marginalization, threats and the muzzling of their voices.

 

We note with disappointment that this most recent attack on the CAF is part of a campaign waged by Mr. Kenney who has targeted and systematically vilified the CAF. In January 2008, Mr. Kenney smeared and stereotyped the Arab community during one of his exchanges with a Liberal MP in the House of Commons, and he described CAF as a racist organization in a speech in Bucharest Romania in June 2007. Mr. Kenney’s most recent attack on CAF came just 3 days ago at an anti-Semitism conference in London, England where he labeled the CAF and Canadian Islamic Congress (CIC) as groups that promote anti-Semitism. This characterization is slanderous and untrue on a number of levels. The CAF works with many Jewish anti-Zionist groups on a variety of projects. Furthermore, Arabs are a Semitic people, so Mr. Kenney's unfounded allegations and intimidating threats against the CAF misrepresent the organization and our community and work to inflame and divide Canadians.

Since 1992, CAF's settlement programs have demonstrated a solid record of success that is available for any interested party to examine and review. These programs are thoroughly audited and have been praised for the efficiency and dedication with which they are implemented. Threatening to cut funding for these programs is a form of indiscriminate and collective punishment upon people who require these services. We wonder what motivated the Minister to issue this threat. If it stems from a disagreement with our position on certain political issues, we strongly believe that this constitutes an infringement on our freedoms and rights as guaranteed by the Charter. We have consistently sought to empower our community to speak its mind and participate fully, openly and unabashedly in the Canadian democratic process. Mr. Kenney’s comments serve to set this endeavour back. Is the muting of our voices is now a condition for receiving funding and support from our government? This is a matter of grave concern to all agencies providing language and settlement services to immigrants and newcomers.

Mr. Kenney's comments, whether intentionally or unintentionally, perpetuate negative sentiments towards Arab and Muslim Canadians. These come directly after the United Nations Human Rights Council (UNHRC) released a report stating that "Canada should strengthen its domestic violence laws and stop religious discrimination against Muslims…and do more to improve the welfare of its Aboriginal citizens".

 

We call upon the Harper government to adopt a zero tolerance approach to expressions of Islamophobia and Arabophobia (the latter of which is a form of anti-Semitism), in the public arena. The government must recognize Islamophobia and Arabophobia for what they are, pernicious evils that must be exposed, confronted and repudiated whenever and where ever they appear, evils so profound that they are ultimately a threat to us all.

 

The CAF will continue to provide its services to all Canadians and expects that funds will be unchanged for programs that we have implemented with excellence. The CAF will not be intimidated into silence and will defend the rights and freedoms of our communities as protected under the Charter. We will continue to combat racism and uphold the rights of racialized groups and human rights in Canada and abroad, as well as to vigorously expose the serious human rights violations perpetuated by Israel against the Palestinian people and its illegal occupation of Arab lands.

For more information, please contact:

Mohamed Boudjenane
CAF Executive Director
416-493-8635 x 23  ed@caf.ca


 

Stockholm

"Actually, by equating "anti-Zionism" with "antisemitism," you're helping Kenney peddle his crap."

If you would actually bother reading what I wrote you would see that I just said that I do NOT equate so-called anti-zionism with anti-semitism. (I'd still like to hear someone explain what you call someone who says they are anti-zionist, but who also thinks Israel has a right to exist). But I think that when people use the word "Zionist" as an ad hominem insult that they hiss at people who are Jewish or who are married to Jews then THAT is thinly veiled anti-semitism - and you can't deny it.

Do you equate "anti-Islamism" with "Islamaphobia" or do you think its A-OK to point fingers and shriek "Islamist" at anyone who is pro-Palestinian.

Let's have less name calling and more discussion of the ISSUES. 

al-Qa'bong

Quote:
If you would actually bother reading what I wrote ...
 

"Bother" is putting the experience rather lightly.

 

Quote:
Do you equate "anti-Islamism" with "Islamaphobia" or do you think its A-OK to point fingers and shriek "Islamist" at anyone who is pro-Palestinian.

 Your example makes no sense, since not all Palestinians are Muslims.

 Zionism is a hyper-Nationalist ideology that grew out of similar movements in 19th-century Europe.  It's basically a school of thought. 

 

One can be critical of Zionists and not be critical of Jews in the same manner that one can be critical of supply-side economists, Stalinists and Nazis without being critical of greedy white people, Russians and Germans.

Stockholm

That's true. But if Ignatieff had a German wife and people started hissing "Nazi" at her and started murmuring that we had to stop the "Nazi-lover" from being PM - I would call that anti-German bigotry.

As I have said before - there is a HUGE difference between being "critical of Zionism" and singling out someone who happens to have a Jewish wife and hissing "Zionist" at him as if believing that Israel should exist is to be equating with supporting child pornography.

The kinds of people who go around shrieking "Zionist" as an ad hominem insult are about as brain dead about what Zionism actually is as are people who call anyone who supports a Palestinian state an "Islamofascist".

Machjo
KenS

Stockholm wrote:

 (I'd still like to hear someone explain what you call someone who says they are anti-zionist, but who also thinks Israel has a right to exist).

Since I'm the one who said that I'll answer.

Labels are not timeless. There are a number of you who hold to a bygone view of Zionism- from its origins. You are enititled to do so. But you are not entitled in a discussion with others to treat the definition convenient to you as if it is the only one.

In todays world- and in practice for some decades now, more than half of Israel's exostence- real world Zionism is not a homeland for Jewish people. But a project that invites anyone who is Jewish to settle in a de facto ever expanding Israel, directly  and unequivocally at the expense of the land, resources, and livelihoods of Palestinians.

 You are entitled to the belief that is not what Zionism is about to you. But you are not entitled to act as if really living Zionism is not what it is about. [Let alone, please show me this Zionism of old today.]

 The fact that Zionism gets used as an all encompassing toss off epithet does not mean it does not richly deserve to be used in the critical way it is typically used on this board and many other places.

So it is very easy for me, and many other people, to be anti-Zionist and to unequivocally affirm the right of Israel to exist.

 It is bad faith reductionism to reduce Zionism simply to an affirmation of Israel's right to exist.

 

Stockholm wrote:

 But I think that when people use the word "Zionist" as an ad hominem insult that they hiss at people who are Jewish or who are married to Jews then THAT is thinly veiled anti-semitism - and you can't deny it.

 You "think". Star Spangled Canadian "suspects". Convenient  'evidence'.

And once again, sufficiently on the basis alone that she is a leading member of the CJC, I am calling Bob Rae's wife a Zionist. So are you calling me a 'thinly veiled anti-semite'?

I do agree with you that it is better not to use labels like Zionist and to use more unambiguously descriptive terms such as you suggested. And this is what I do.

But I'm also going to defend people from the smearing because they 'dare' to use the term.

 

al-Qa'bong

Quote:
That's true. But if Ignatieff had a German wife and people started hissing "Nazi" at her and started murmuring that we had to stop the "Nazi-lover" from being PM - I would call that anti-German bigotry.

So would pretty well anyone.

 

But if Ignatieff's wife was a prominent member of the Bund and Iggy was actively promoting lebensraum, you might become suspicious about their political sympathies.

 

And you'd hissssssss, Sssstockholm, you'd hisssssss. 

Winnifred

Star Spangled Canadian wrote:
Well said, Stockholm. We can only imagine the outcry if anyone raised a candidate's wife being Muslim or Sikh as a reason not to vote for them.

 From KenS

It is misleading to merely describe Bob Rae's wife as just another someone who supports the right of Israel to exist. She's a leading member of the CJC. We can quibble about whether Zionist is the right thing to call her [and its not the term I would choose], but the CJC is more than just another group supporting Israel's right to exist.

I don't understand this. what "more" is CJC? I have known it to fight hate-mongers and racists. Is that what you mean?

Unionist

Winnifred wrote:

I don't understand this. what "more" is CJC? I have known it to fight hate-mongers and racists. Is that what you mean?

Oh yes, the CJC also kisses children, they're so sweet. Just like you.

Stockholm

If being active in the CJC means you can be denounced as a "Zionist", I guess that means that anyone who's a member of the Canadian Arab Federation should also be denounced as an "Islamofascist".

"But you are not entitled in a discussion with others to treat the definition (of Zionism) convenient to you as if it is the only one."

Yeah, well I think we also have to say that the anti-Israel freaks are also not entitled to treat the definition of Zionism convenient to them as if it is the only one either.

The issue is the policies of the Israeli government - not what Herzl stood for a hundred years ago. The only way that Israeli government policies are ever going to change is when the current rightwing nationalist perversion of Zionism is ended and Zionism goes back to the socialist humanistic values that it had in its first phase.  

Unionist

Stockholm wrote:

If being active in the CJC means you can be denounced as a "Zionist", I guess that means that anyone who's a member of the Canadian Arab Federation should also be denounced as an "Islamofascist".

Can you actually be so ignorant as to believe that the CAF is a Muslim organization - or that Arabs are Muslims? Or are you just ranting?

Winnifred

Unionist wrote:
Winnifred wrote:

I don't understand this. what "more" is CJC? I have known it to fight hate-mongers and racists. Is that what you mean?

Oh yes, the CJC also kisses children, they're so sweet. Just like you.

That kind of sarcasm is really uncalled for. Its boorish.

Unionist

Winnifred wrote:
Unionist wrote:
Winnifred wrote:

I don't understand this. what "more" is CJC? I have known it to fight hate-mongers and racists. Is that what you mean?

Oh yes, the CJC also kisses children, they're so sweet. Just like you.

That kind of sarcasm is really uncalled for. Its boorish.

Excuse me, oh well-mannered and deeply sensitive friend of Israel, for my boorishness. But you said the CJC fights racists -- and you're calling ME sarcastic!!??

LaughingLaughingYell

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

Winnifred wrote:
That kind of sarcasm is really uncalled for. Its boorish.

 

I like boorish.  Might even look it up.

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