Multiple injuries reported after pedestrians struck by van in Toronto

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Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Hurtin Albertan wrote:

Makes me wonder how he made it through initial screening at recruitment, I'm kind of surprised he made it as far as training. 

Everyone seemed to make a big deal out of the fact he is Armenian, and Armenians are Christian, so therefore there are no ties to islamic terror groups, because we all know once your parents pick a religion for you no one has ever converted to another religion or changed their veiws on organized religion ever.  And yes, I do realize he supposedly never claimed to be inspired by religious beliefs but one random facebook post about his quote-unquote motivation seems to be a little thin to claim this was really all about the Chads and Staceys, because no one ever shitposts in real life, right?  There has already been some speculation about whether he even made the facebook post but I'm speculating any of that talk is 4Chan trying to muddy the waters.

The line between "Terrorism for sure" and "Definitely not terrorism" has gotten a little blurry in recent years, I do find myself being nostalgic for the good old days of international terrorism when everybody knew what a terrorist attack was.  I blame the internet.

And I suppose I should give a grudging thumbs up to the Canadian gun laws that kept him from buying a gun.  For sure a huge thumbs up to the arresting officer from Toronto police, I'm guessing the office was able to identify that the attacker was holding a cell phone and not a gun and took the appropriate action to place him under arrest.

Sooner or later the interviews and/or interrogations will be released to the media and we will have a better understanding of the mottive behind theis attack.  I still believe it's the fame/infamy that motivates a lot of this.  It's one of the only ways I can think of for an unknown person to suddenly be talked about by people and media around the world, sadly.

Seriously?  You don't accept the fact that it has been clearly and absolutely established that this massacre has nothing whatsoever to do with any iteration of Islam?  

NorthReport

Violence rarely comes from nowhere

Short-term, precarious or unstable work feeds into social isolation. Researchers at McMaster University found correlations with precarious work and increased anxiety, increased mental health challenges, increased feelings of isolation and fewer opportunities to volunteer. And importantly, lower income, which is made worse by record-high tuition fee debt.

At the same time, a Statistics Canada report found that between 1974 and 2001, young people’s transition to adulthood was more and more delayed, especially among young men. While by their 30s, men and women catch up to each other, important life events are increasingly delayed for men during their 20s.

Less stability, fewer opportunities to meet people and more anxiety create the conditions where someone might turn to online subcultures for community and validation. Certainly, online communities help everyone expand their friend network, and this is borne out by other Statistics Canada research. When the community that someone finds is toxic or violent, it can serve to radicalize them.

In Minassian’s case, we know the end result, even if the portrait of how he ended up there isn’t yet clear.

At the second press conference given about the Toronto attack, one journalist asked if it’s reasonable to even try to stop these kinds of random acts of violence: they’re chosen specifically because they’re random, after all. It’s a fair question, but it personalizes the act in such a way that delivers no solution.

The reality is that violence rarely comes from nowhere and always depends on systemic forces to bear it to fruition. That’s true in the Bruce McArthur murders. That’s true for every domestic assault. It’s even true for violence that we call accidents: workplace accidents, road accidents or failures in the health system that take someone away from us too soon.

We need to reflect on the negative impacts of social inequality, a lack of public services and supports, widespread precarious employment, sky-high costs of living and, of course, intense sexism and gendered violence. Throwing our hands in the air in exasperation is the easy way out. I have the thousands of messages that tell me that the causes of this attack were systemic and way more widespread than many would like to believe.

There’s no question that the solutions to prevent a similar event must be systemic, too.

https://www.nationalobserver.com/2018/04/26/opinion/violence-rarely-come...

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

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Seriously?  You don't accept the fact that it has been clearly and absolutely established that this massacre has nothing whatsoever to do with any iteration of Islam?

Perhaps I'm a day late and a dollar short.  Or I'm not who you're arguing with.  But really, it hasn't been clearly and absolutely established that this massacre has nothing whatsoever to do with any iteration of Islam.

Personally, I don't give any meaningful weight to that possibility.  But until he tells us, it's just conjecture based on an online post.  I'd feel a bit more comfortable if it were based on hundreds of consistent online posts, or something he said at the time ("this is for my celibate brethren!") or something similar.

But the fact that it's probably about involuntary celibacy (and yes, that's my provisional theory right now) doesn't mean it's been conclusively proven that it couldn't be about something else.

6079_Smith_W

Leave it to Beaverton to cut through the crap:

https://www.thebeaverton.com/2018/04/motives-of-man-who-clearly-stated-h...

And of course you don't have to look far on the internet to find people calling the incel connection fake news.  And this:

https://thewitness.com.au/2018/04/25/toronto-attacked-by-incel-terrorist/

 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
Seriously?  You don't accept the fact that it has been clearly and absolutely established that this massacre has nothing whatsoever to do with any iteration of Islam?

Perhaps I'm a day late and a dollar short.  Or I'm not who you're arguing with.  But really, it hasn't been clearly and absolutely established that this massacre has nothing whatsoever to do with any iteration of Islam.

Personally, I don't give any meaningful weight to that possibility.  But until he tells us, it's just conjecture based on an online post.  I'd feel a bit more comfortable if it were based on hundreds of consistent online posts, or something he said at the time ("this is for my celibate brethren!") or something similar.

But the fact that it's probably about involuntary celibacy (and yes, that's my provisional theory right now) doesn't mean it's been conclusively proven that it couldn't be about something else.

You weren't the one I was responding to there.  The preponderance of evidence here is that this was about being an incel.  I can't think of anyone other than an Islamophobic reactionary or an apologist or post 9/11 U.S. foreign policy wanting to avoid ruling out the possibility, a possibility Minassian's lifelong Christianity and his ancestral ties to a Christian country which has been in a long-standing war with a neighboring Muslim country seem, to most people, to decisively discredit?  Is there any decent, honorable reason for anybody to be urging us NOT to dismiss the idea that Muslims could be responsible?

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

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Is there any decent, honorable reason for anybody to be urging us NOT to dismiss the idea that Muslims could be responsible?

I won't try to claim that it's decent or hono[u]able or or even true, but haven't there been people born "Robert McDonald" or somesuch who decide, late in life, to take the name "Mohammed Bin Headscarf"?  What does it prove to assert that his parents were Scots Canadians, and 0% of Scots Canadians are Muslim?

Again, this isn't the theory I'm going with.  I'm just saying that "most Armenians aren't Muslim" isn't proof that he wasn't Muslim.  He needs to tell us.  It's not ridiculous to imagine that he might be Muslim unless it's just as ridiculous to imagine that the former Cat Stevens is, or Cassius Clay, or lots of other people whose heritage isn't Muslim.

It's what all the really COOL kids are doing now! :)

And maybe I doth protest too much, but I want to be very clear here that I've provisionally dismissed the idea that he's Muslim, even as I suggest that it's too soon to pretend it's been disproven.

6079_Smith_W

Hey, no worries. Even Buzzfeed is going out of their way to be all  "open minded" about this.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/craigsilverman/rumors-toronto-van-attack-alek-m...

Though strangely not so open minded that they aren't mentioning the unverified fact that he isn't part of the International Jewish Conspiracy, or the Freemen, or neo-Nazis, or any number of other groups we can't rule out yet.

For some unfathomable reason it's just one group that is on everyone's mind, and about which we have to play this reverse onus game.

Even though the public safety minister has already declared that this was not a matter of state security. But what does he know?

 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

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Though strangely not so open minded that they aren't mentioning the unverified fact that he isn't part of the International Jewish Conspiracy, or the Freemen, or neo-Nazis, or any number of other groups we can't rule out yet.

Well, OK.  But is that their modus operandi?

If there have been other examples of "Freemen on the land" driving rental vans into innocent crowds, that would definitely seem wrong.  But if there are no examples of that, it would seem a bit less wrong.  Again, not suggesting "must be Muslim".  But I'm not shocked that Freemen on the land aren't getting equal consideration.  I thought they mostly just holed up in their primitive shack with their tens of thousands of dollars worth of automatic weapons.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
Is there any decent, honorable reason for anybody to be urging us NOT to dismiss the idea that Muslims could be responsible?

I won't try to claim that it's decent or hono[u]able or or even true, but haven't there been people born "Robert McDonald" or somesuch who decide, late in life, to take the name "Mohammed Bin Headscarf"?  What does it prove to assert that his parents were Scots Canadians, and 0% of Scots Canadians are Muslim?

Again, this isn't the theory I'm going with.  I'm just saying that "most Armenians aren't Muslim" isn't proof that he wasn't Muslim.  He needs to tell us.  It's not ridiculous to imagine that he might be Muslim unless it's just as ridiculous to imagine that the former Cat Stevens is, or Cassius Clay, or lots of other people whose heritage isn't Muslim.

It's what all the really COOL kids are doing now! :)

And maybe I doth protest too much, but I want to be very clear here that I've provisionally dismissed the idea that he's Muslim, even as I suggest that it's too soon to pretend it's been disproven.

It was originally Hurtin Albertan I was responding to.  But even if it were to turn out that the Minassian were to have an Arabic-sounding alternative name, there's a difference between that and the killing having any relation to Islam,  Marc Lepine's birth name, for example, clearly had nothing to do with what he did at the Polytechnique'.

laine lowe laine lowe's picture

Discussions of terrorism, misogyny and other violent behaviour based on belief systems should not be always conflated with mental illness. In fact, depending on who society deems to be a threat, some (namely ISIS and Al-Qaeda) were considered 100% terrorists others not so much. Racist and sexist perceptions do play a role in defining what we consider a terrorist. It seemed like it was far more clear cut when we recognized that terrorism was a political action. Striving to change the world to make women more compliant/subserviant to men's will or to erradicate or enslave distinctive groups of people because of presumed superiority - those are political acts and not necessarily the acts of individuals dealing with mental illness. Following and being involved in perpetrating those movements takes organized thinking.

 

6079_Smith_W

I'm not shocked they aren't getting equal consideration either, but it isn't because of M.O. It is because of racism, which is the reason many people do assume one thing.

And of course denial of what he very clearly indicated was his inspiration.

 

 

progressive17 progressive17's picture

Misogyny seems to be a problem which can have a multidisciplinary approach.

There is no question there is a toxic cultural environment, and millennia of history which built it up.

I also think that the propensity to exploit has something to do with it.

Getting into their heads using PET scanners is surely worth a shot...

Here's a CNN article from 2015: https://www.cnn.com/2015/11/04/health/why-people-are-sexist/index.html

Everything you say is true, however that may be as well. 

NorthReport
NorthReport

Regardless of what we discover about the suspect I agree that we must attempt to get these perpetrators of violence off the Internet 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-can-the-radicalization-of-incels-be-stopped/

NorthReport

Toronto’s van attack has revealed something very ugly

The deadly van attack in Toronto has revealed the existence of a sub-culture of women-hating, self-loathing young men convening online to wallow in self-pity and contemplate violent revenge.

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/2018/04/27/torontos-van-attac...

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

On the other hand, these "incels" are loosely organized, self-identified group that celebrated the action of driving that van into a bunch of people, who lionize Rodgers for his murders and hope that more of their number will follow in his footsteps. It's more than a group that doesn't disagree.

WWWTT

Ok I think enough time has passed for me to comment on this thread. I’m going to throw a bunch of stuff out there. 

First off, every one charged is innocent until proven guilty. But from what I’m hearing, it sounds like the trial is going to be fast and this guy will be in jail the rest of his life. 

I don’t understand what made this guy commit such horrible crimes? For me, this needs more time for more to come out. 

I keep thinking about how much violence has become acceptable in entertainment. Such as in movies and cartoons. Movies such as Star Wars and marvels avengers. Starting today I will not let my kids watch so many violent tv cartoons!

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

They're clearly pretty embittered, and I'm sure that they do wind each other up.  Clear incitements to violence should be legally actionable, and responsible web hosts like Reddit are free to (and should) deny them a microphone.

But I'm not expecting them to become a whole lot less embittered.  While it may seem like they're solely about misogyny -- angry at the women who don't sleep with them and have happy lives -- it really seems like they're just as angry at the "undeserving" men who sleep with women and also have happy lives.  It's the whole "women only like jerks and ignore gentlemen like me" trope, writ large.

Is it really all about "entitlement"?  Perhaps.  I wouldn't suggest that any man is "entitled" to sleep with any particular woman or women, nor, really, any at all.  It's not a human right, after all.  But when we talk about inequality, we note that even if you're fed and have a roof over your head and clothes on your back, if it looks like others have way, way more than you do, you'll probably end up resenting that.  Nobody's "entitled" to a luxury car, or a huge-screen TV, or a 3000 square foot house either, but when people realize that they'll just never have those things and will have to make do with an old Ford Taurus and a 40" television and an apartment, they're still going to feel a bit ripped off.

I'm not suggesting we all need to sympathize with these guys.  But I'm not convinced that they're just looking for someone to hate on.

WWWTT

I don’t agree with some of your points here Mr. Magoo. 

We all have the right to reproduction, to have children. 

Also you’re implying people have grades or levels of quality like cars or other material possessions. Now if you’re implying “types” of people instead then my apologies. 

WWWTT

I forgot to add to my last comment that the right to reproduction doesn’t mean the right to reproduce with anyone one wants. 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

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We all have the right to reproduction, to have children.

Yes, in the sense that if we and a willing partner wish to have a child, the state (nor anyone else) should prevent us. 

But nobody is entitled to an infant.

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Also you’re implying people have grades or levels of quality like cars or other material possessions.

Can you flesh that out?  I don't follow.

Quote:
I forgot to add to my last comment that the right to reproduction doesn’t mean the right to reproduce with anyone one wants.

Then we probably agree, if you believe that our right to reproduction also doesn't mean the right to reproduce with "someone" even if the person we want to reproduce with wants no part of it.

Interestingly, I've read many times of people stealing, or trying to steal, infants from the maternity ward of a hospital.  And I've also read more than once in my life (and you would think once would be enough) of someone cutting a late-term infant out of a woman's uterus, to have as their own.  That's taking entitlement to a child a bit too far, yes?

 

WWWTT

Perhaps I should point something out to explain my position.  

The media puts a huge focus on specific looks and body types as being attractive. This is bullshit propaganda that many people actually believe!

this guy may have felt that if a woman wasn’t at least 170cm tall and weighed 55kg, than she wasn’t attractive or worthy to share and enjoy life together. Guaranteed the corporate media beat this standard into his head!

6079_Smith_W

Go to one of their sites and read what they say themselves, Magoo. Contrary to what was claimed upthread, it isn't just guys who can't get laid. There are plenty of unhappy singles who don't think this way or do these things.

If this group is anything like Gamergate and the Sad Puppies (and it is pretty much the same ideology in that it boils down to male privilege and hatred of women) I have no doubt they have the capacity to be very organized, and create even more havoc.

Those other groups even have women who for some reason are party to disruption and hijacking of events and other attacks. But then, you also have Ann Coulter saying that it would be better off if women didn't have the vote, so go figure.

 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

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this guy may have felt that if a woman wasn’t at least 170cm tall and weighed 55kg, than she wasn’t attractive or worthy to share and enjoy life together.

So a picky guy was willing to kill others because he felt they were too picky?

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Contrary to what was claimed upthread, it isn't just guys who can't get laid. There are plenty of unhappy singles who don't think this way or do these things.

I don't doubt that one bit.  But if they're not having sex with women just so they can have an excuse to hate women for not having sex with them, their commitment to inchoate hatred is beyond my comprehension.

I'm only suggesting that maybe they're angry because they see others having things they reasonably don't think they'll ever have, and see it as an injustice or an inequality.  I'm not saying we have to entertain everyone who feels that way just because their neighbour "Chad" has something they don't.

But sadly, preventing "terrorism" does, in fact, mean having to at least try to understand it, the way that preventing serial murder means having to at least try to understand why serial killers serially kill.  We surely don't have to agree with them, but we'll get nowhere trying to force our understanding of things on them in order to understand them.

 

6079_Smith_W

Yeah, I have gone and looked at their stuff, in order to see where they are coming from. I have been following MRAs for some time now. It also isnt' hard to find people who were involved in this movement and got themselves out.

It's based on that that I call bullshit on this facade. Sure they spin it like they are the victims, but we don't accept that as an excuse when it comes to racists and fascists who do the same thing, so why fall for it in this case?

(edit)

And to clarify, I do accept that maybe this was some guy who just got sucked in by it and for some reason would up committing mass murder and attempting suicide by cop. But movements like this don't happen without cooler heads that make it their business to push this hateful ideology. You know, the ones who write the articles, maintain the websites, and raise money.

 

WWWTT

 

So a picky guy was willing to kill others because he felt they were too picky?

thats pretty much it. I seen this a lot when I was younger. Now I’m not sure if this was this guys case. But I should point out that I never seen anyone wanting to actually kill another person over their frustrations. I have seen fist fights. I myself was even sucker punched in a bar once by a guy who was jealous and got into a fight with him. 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

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It's based on that that I call bullshit on this facade. Sure they spin it like they are the victims, but we don't accept that as an excuse when it comes to racists and fascists who do the same thing, so why fall for it in this case?

Personally, I don't think they're victims.  But they seem to feel they are, and so that's at least as interesting as how someone with everything they need to survive would also feel like a victim.  If your neighbour, who's a total jerk-bag, has TWO cars and a bigger house and money to blow on a Jet-Ski while you're renting and sometimes have to choose between paying the electric bill and paying the gas bill, isn't that "inequality" right there?

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But movements like this don't happen without cooler heads that make it their business to push this hateful ideology. You know, the ones who write the articles, maintain the websites, and raise money.

I doubt that catering to incels is any kind of "get rich" scheme.  And I doubt that web hosts are somehow pulling strings behind the curtain to raise more money.  If you're looking to follow the scent-trail of money on this, I don't know that you'll find a rabbit.

I think they're mad because lots of others seem to have things they don't, and that they know they won't, and they don't understand why.  I'm not saying there aren't lots of reasonable reasons why.  But if they don't understand those reasons, they're going to be resentful.  That's how it works every other time people want what others have and don't know why they don't.

progressive17 progressive17's picture

It depends. I might have the apartment and no debts, and the other with all the physical things might be up to his neck in credit card debts, mortgages, lines of credit, car loans etc. Being parsimonious I might even have bank shares, so he is making me richer while I refuse to spend the money, and he gets further and further towards bankruptcy.

I once met a guy who was working for $11.50 an hour and had a BMW. I asked him how he paid for it, and he said it was because he took a full time shift at Popeye's after his day job. So he worked for 16 hrs a day to maintain appearances. Many people in flash cars are on these kind of leases.

The more crap you have, the more sorry I am for you. Maybe there are other family members who consider the crap more important than they consider you. Sometimes, you just have to walk away.

Rev Pesky

From WWWTT:

The media puts a huge focus on specific looks and body types as being attractive. This is bullshit propaganda that many people actually believe!

A person may believe that other people are attracted by certain features. That doesn't change what the specific person finds attractive.

Pondering

Mr. Magoo wrote:

So a picky guy was willing to kill others because he felt they were too picky?......

I'm only suggesting that maybe they're angry because they see others having things they reasonably don't think they'll ever have, and see it as an injustice or an inequality.  I'm not saying we have to entertain everyone who feels that way just because their neighbour "Chad" has something they don't.

But sadly, preventing "terrorism" does, in fact, mean having to at least try to understand it, the way that preventing serial murder means having to at least try to understand why serial killers serially kill.  We surely don't have to agree with them, but we'll get nowhere trying to force our understanding of things on them in order to understand them.

You are right. Inequality is the root cause of the anger, but it is directed at women. They want to be Chads and have the BMWs of women. It isn't just appearance. A gorgeous prostitute won't do. They don't just want sex. They want a trophy.

The objectification of women is why they direct their anger at us, not the men they are competing with.  That same anger is expressed as racism and resentment against the poor. 

oldgoat

"Everybody has the right to reproduction"? WTF!  Did I understand that correctly?  Sounds like everybody has a right to sex.  That entitled bullshit attitude is part of the problem. 

Also.  There are certain socially undesirable elements, ie: the sort I used to routinely ban from here who are so massivly invested in thier narrative of this being an act of Islamist terrorism they'll twist themselves in knots trying to maintain that hope for themselves in this particular case. Lets not be one of those people.

On a completely seperate note, and to bring the real human element back into this, on Friday I happened to be talking to the director of Accessability and Couselling at Seneca College on another matter.  I expresed my condolences to thier community, they had two students killed, two injured, and of course the perp (alleged) was a Seneca student.  Thier counselling dept. has been as you can imagine a pretty surreal place this week, with a lot of secondary traumatization among the cousellors.  A friend of mine is a student counsellor at Centennial, and the ripple effect is reaching there. In talking about this with friends and colleagues I've even found myself having anxiety attacks to the point of having to do breathing and mindfulness exercises.

 

NorthReport

Very sorry to hear that oldgoat

We need to drastically alter how we deal with violence particularly in the media

6079_Smith_W

Yeah, and on a more local level, our tendency to reduce real tragedy that affects real people, into theoretical balls to toss around.

Thanks for the reminder, and condolences, oldgoat.

 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

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Yeah, and on a more local level, our tendency to reduce real tragedy that affects real people, into theoretical balls to toss around.

And yet isn't that pretty much why we're all eager to know why he did it (and others as well)? 

I get that "he did it because he's probably a closet ISIS operative" counts as trying to make a li'l hay.

But so does saying "he did it because he spent nearly two whole weeks in the Army before quitting".

We seem to expect the guy to carry dozens of hobby horses.

NDPP

On Target: Canada Too Reluctant To Use 'Terrorist' Description

http://thechronicleherald.ca/opinion/1566537-on-target-canada-too-reluct...

"...Then there is the curious reluctance to label Minassian's rampage of death in Toronto as a 'terrorist attack'."

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