Québec solidaire - the thread

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lagatta4

Yes, and there is no reason to cut and paste an entire article. Use the quote function.  I'd love to hear what Karl has to say now.

And will I ever stop sneezing or coughing? It seems like an endless winter.

Pondering

I think this was perfect:

Singh addressed the issue in a personal manner. After all, a person who dresses as he does will be a target of the CAQ's proposed new law. The NDP leader said, poignantly, that the Quebec initiative makes him sad. It reminds him, he told reporters, of his own sense of exclusion growing up.

That is why I am against the law. Not for any ideological reason. Ideologically I would support the law but I place people above ideology. The law does not serve to protect society it does the opposite. It encourages intolerance and even fear. 

Singh takes it out of the realm of ideology and into the realm of humanity. Everyone can relate to feeling alienated, excluded, sad, hurt. Most people don't want to make other people feel that way. Many people now know or have known a hijab-wearing woman at least casually. Legault knows that people would react with outrage if there were mass firings. Schoolboards are saying they will refuse to apply the law. How will it be enforced? Will there be a snitch line? 

Unenforcable laws are not good. Quebecers may support the idea of the law but in practice I don't believe that they will.

P.S. I too am done with winter. I've had two dry air nose bleeds and I'm tired of bundling up to go outside. I want to be able to think, "Oh, I think I will go pick up X" and not have it feel like such a chore. I want to sit on my balconey and get angry at the squirrels for messing with my plants. 

They have no fear, one was within two feet of me on the sidewalk  and didn't budge. 

NorthReport

At the behest of the RC church Duplessis arrested JW but they were bailed out by Frank Roncarelli, the owner of Quaff Café in Montreal. Duplessis revoked his liquor license and destroyed his business in Quebec so he moved across the line to the US and opened a restaurant there. 

A crucifix above the Speaker's chair in the Quebec National Assembly has been described by some politicians more as a symbol of Quebec's heritage, not an item representing Christian faith. The cross was installed in 1936 by the order of then Premier Maurice Duplessis. (Jacques Boissinot/Canadian Press)

Canada's Human Rights History

https://historyofrights.ca/encyclopaedia/main-events/jehovahs-witnesses/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roncarelli_v_Duplessis

https://www.osgoodesociety.ca/encyclopedia/when-law-met-politics-roncarelli-v-duplessis/

voice of the damned

NorthReport:

Basically correct history, but I'm pretty sure that Roncarelli himself was a JW. From the Osgoode link...

The Roncarelli case, which also ended in a Supreme Court judgement, differed from Boucher and Saumur and indeed most of the other cases involving Jehovah’s Witnesses in several respects. For one thing, it was a civil, or private suit (one citizen against another), and for another, the Jehovah’s Witness involved was the instigator (plaintiff) of the legal action.

There might be some assumption that Roncarelli couldn't have been a JW because he sold liquor, but in fact, booze is one vice permitted the JWs. I've read accounts of people getting pretty sloshed at some of their international meetings.

 

 

 

NorthReport

votd 

I stand corrected - you are right it appers.

Also F.R.Scott (the poet and co-founder of the CCF) sued Duplessis personally for a sum in excess of $100,000.00.

In a Hollywood moment right out of the movie A Few Good Men, Duplessis, flushed with rage, thundered: “When a superior officer gives an order, an inferior obeys.” He alone had called the code red. The court awarded damages of $8,123.55, an amount far short of the $119,000 originally claimed.

Years later in 1959, the Supreme Court of Canada increased the award to about $33,0000 in damages. It was hardly enough to cover the legal fees for all of those years. For Roncarelli, it was never about the money. His victory lay in the words of former justice Ivan Rand: “Discretion necessarily implies good faith in discharging public duty; there is always a perspective within which a statute is intended to operate; and any clear departure from its lines or objects is just as objectionable as fraud or corruption.”

Some say the fatal stroke Duplessis suffered later that year was due to the public rebuke by the Supreme Court. A year later, Jean Lesage’s Liberal party won its first election since 1936, an event that marked the beginning of the Quiet Revolution. Stein’s clients returned. Scott became dean of law at McGill and Roncarelli moved to the United States to find work.

Though the actors have long passed, the case and its principle live on. As we watch municipal politicians today brought before the courts on corruption charges, insider real estate deals, and breaches of ethics; provincial leaders cancelling huge energy projects in the middle of elections; and federal representatives decrying the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, we should remember we walk in the footsteps of the Jew, the Jehovah’s Witness, the politician, and the poet who gave us the chutzpah to question our leaders.

https://www.lawtimesnews.com/author/na/speakers-corner-important-constitutional-case-lives-on-as-turning-point-for-challenging-politicians-10719/

NorthReport

This was a huge decision

See the charts on page 153 and 154

The Deep Structure of Roncarelli v Duplessis David Dyzenhau

https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/bitstream/1807/87910/1/Dyzenhaus%20Deep%20Structure.pdf

NorthReport

Thank goodness for Jean Lesage and the Quiet Revolution

“The Battle Is Not Yours, but God’s”

Pierre Elliott Trudeau, later prime minister of Canada, wrote that Jehovah’s Witnesses in Quebec had “been mocked, persecuted, and hated by our entire society; but they have managed by legal means to fight Church, government, nation, police, and public opinion.”

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102000287

NorthReport
Unionist

I'm sure there's a great reason for spamming the Québec Solidaire thread. I'm sure I can't imagine what it might be though. 

jerrym

NorthReport wrote:

votd 

I stand corrected - you are right it appers.

Some say the fatal stroke Duplessis suffered later that year was due to the public rebuke by the Supreme Court. A year later, Jean Lesage’s Liberal party won its first election since 1936, an event that marked the beginning of the Quiet Revolution. Stein’s clients returned. Scott became dean of law at McGill and Roncarelli moved to the United States to find work.

That statement is not quite true. The Liberals did win one election between 1936 and the election of Jean Lesage. In 1939, the Liberals under  Joseph-Adélard Godbout won the election (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1939_Quebec_general_election).

NorthReport

Duplessis era

During the period between elections a paint company say CIL would get a government paint contract Their regular price for a gallon of paint was say $5 but CIL would charge the government $7 a gallon CIL would sell millions of gallons of paint to the government

Come just before election time Duplessis would go to CIL and collect the extra $2 per gallon and then it would be turned into small money $5 bills

Duplessis’ henchmen would then go around the province and knock on residents doors asking do you want $5 cash from Duplessis or do you want a case of beer from him If they wanted beer the henchmen would go their cars and bring the family a case of beer from Duplessis At one time a case of beer cost about $5 That was one of the ways Duplessis keep getting  re-elected

Unionist

Why are you people spamming the QS thread? Lecturing us about Québec history? Cansplaining?

Take it somewhere else. You know, where there's less sunshine.

NorthReport

Hi Unionist

Take a pill for goodness sake

And what’s with the lecturing us bit? Didn’t you move relatively recently in the scheme of things to Quebec?

No one is lecturing you or anyone else for that matter 

Just wanted to discuss the Roncarelli Frank Scott Duplessis era as it relates to the proposed secularism law and share how pleasing it is that QS follows in the wonderful tradition of Quebecers fighting for human rights of all its citizens

Unionist wrote:

Why are you people spamming the QS thread? Lecturing us about Québec history? Cansplaining?

Take it somewhere else. You know, where there's less sunshine.

Pondering

I found the link and story about the JW in Quebec very interesting.  Unionist can't help himself. He's a curmudgeon.

lagatta4

Unionist has been here for as long as I remember on this site. I don't care whether he was born in Québec or elsewhere in Canada - I wouldn't care either if his parents came here from Europe as immigrants or refugees. It doesn't matter. He's been involved in the labour movement here for quite a while and speaks French. Fine if he also speaks English, perhaps Yiddish, perhaps other languages.

I'm interested in the Quiet Revolution too, but it would be more relevant to the secularism thread. QS was founded many decades later, uniting different currents of leftwing thought and action here. And since its inception, has greatly developed what one could call the green left or ecosocialist approach.

NorthReport

 I don’t have any diasagreement with any of that lagatta it was primarily unionist’s comments that I was lecturing Quebecers that were frustrating, nonsensical and inaccurate 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Cansplaining, I love it. I have decided that despite my long standing disdain for the use of the term ROC I will embrace it by changing its usual usage. ROC for me means anything on the other side of the Great Divide and I agree there is a lot of ROCsplaining in our federation.

I really like the QS policies and wish the people living around the Salish Sea could start its equivalent.

swallow swallow's picture

They could, though it takes an awful lot of willingness to compromise among ideological currents and an awful lot of work. I think the QS model is one that can work outside Quebec. And now I am off topic too. 

Another thread on Duplessis and the like would be useful education, I’d think. 

voice of the damned

swallow wrote:

They could, though it takes an awful lot of willingness to compromise among ideological currents and an awful lot of work. I think the QS model is one that can work outside Quebec. And now I am off topic too. 

Another thread on Duplessis and the like would be useful education, I’d think. 

I'm on it.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Québec solidaire vows to fight CAQ government’s racist bill

National Council reaffirms party’s program on separation of church and state, rebuffs QS leaders’ attempts at ‘compromise’

quote:

The CAQ bill has provoked a growing wave of public opposition from civil liberties groups, school boards, and some unions. Meanwhile, many Québec solidaire members had expressed unease with statements by newly elected QS members of the National Assembly indicating support for a “compromise” that would adopt the Bouchard-Taylor report’s position. The party opened a discussion on the issue, which was placed on the agenda of a National Council (NC) meeting held March 29-31.

Three positions emerged from this debate. A relatively small “laicity collective” called for a complete ban on religious signs by public employees at all levels. Because this proposal conflicted with the party’s program, it was ineligible for debate at the CN meeting, which was confined to “interpreting” the program and had no authority to pre-empt a position adopted in a duly constituted membership congress.

A second position — endorsed by several internal QS commissions and ad hoc collectives — rejected the MNAs’ compromise and supported a position of “open laicity” that generally rejected any prohibition on display of religious beliefs by public employees.

The party executive then moved to put two options before the NC members, both of which began with the same “whereas” clause: “that in all cases restrictions on the wearing of religious signs are possible when these contravene one of the four criteria set out in article 7.5.2 of the Québec solidaire program (proselytism, duty of discretion, exercise of the occupation or safety standard).” Option A would ban such signs for persons in authority exercising “a coercive power,” as supported by the MNAs, while Option B stated that “Whereas the discretionary duty applies to the actions and decisions of persons and not to their appearance, no particular rule concerning religious signs should apply to certain professions instead of others, including those that exercise a coercive power.”

The National Council meeting voted overwhelmingly in favour of Option B.

However, this was followed by a second vote, also proposed by the party executive, which asked NC members to choose between two options: one that would bar those dispensing or receiving government services from wearing clothing that conformed to any of the four exceptions allowed by the party program; and another that would allow such services to persons wearing clothing that covers the face, “except for considerations of identification or safety.” The latter option was adopted. This position, which in practice would affect the tiny minority of Muslim women who wear a niqab or burqa, moves QS uncomfortably close to the discriminatory positions of the CAQ, Liberals and PQ on this aspect.

So in the end the party program on “open laicity” as it is often called, was reaffirmed, albeit with its explicit limitations, while the MNAs’ attempts to find some compromise with opposing positions were largely rebuffed. However, it remains for a party congress to amend the QS program to remove the caveats that have served as a pretext for the slippages of principle that have characterized the party’s public positions over the past decade.

In other decisions the 330 NC members voted to continue making the party’s program on climate change its main campaign for the coming year. That program, which presents many progressive concepts but within the framework of a general “green capitalism” approach, should also be the subject of critical analysis along with the position on laicity as the party prepares for its next convention, to be held toward year-end, and where it plans to complete and review its program as a whole.

swallow swallow's picture

The "Life on the Left" blogger appears to have forgotten to identify himself on his blog, though there is a picture. Anyone recognize him? 

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..richard fidler

swallow swallow's picture

Thanks!

Unionist

Richard Fidler has been doing valuable progressive socialist analysis for years. I just wish he had said something very complimentary about QS's courageous decision to reject the religious symbols part of Bill 21 in its entirety - knowing full well that francophone Quebecers were polling about 75% in favour of it. Instead, he focused on the face-covering thing, which really is irrelevant and minuscule in the scheme of things. It's not even noticeable in the public uproar. It's a diversion - but if QS had gone the other way on burkas and niqabs, it could turn into an easy target for crazy stuff. 

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..i appreciate the glimpse into the internal workings of qs. 

lagatta4

Yes, there are so many people accusing us of having a secret politburo, when actually QS is democratic to a nearly absurd degree...

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..yes. i especially found this interesting and hopeful.

while the MNAs’ attempts to find some compromise with opposing positions were largely rebuffed.

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