Q.Solidaire spltting our vote; Marois

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DaveW
Q.Solidaire spltting our vote; Marois

 

 Marois really is bad:

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Macpherson+effect/8377538/story.html

the sooner she is out, the better; fortunately, given PQ poll numbers, it seems inevitable

 

 

DaveW

 

The encouraging poll results for QS further reduce the already slight chance  that the Solidaires would form an electoral alliance with the PQ, in which each  party would concede certain ridings to the other.

Paradoxically, the PQ itself has given the Solidaires another reason for  refusing to concede ridings to it.

By increasing the subsidy to a party based on the number of votes it receives  in a general election, the Péquistes have given QS a financial  incentive to run a full slate of candidates.

Marois appears to have given up all hope of forming an alliance with the  Solidaires, who elected an anti-alliance candidate as their party president a  week ago.

At a PQ national council meeting on Saturday, the day the Léger poll results  were published, an apparently frustrated Marois attacked  the Solidaires as well as the front-running Liberals, while all but ignoring  the CAQ.

Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Macpherson+effect/8377538/story.html#ixzz2THUxQWIv

lagatta

Yes, indeed. Macpherson, of course, is anything but a progressive, but for once a decent commentary, if only because he is happy about the split in the sovereigntist vote. Also quotes several Le Devoir articles.

This ties in to my earlier posts about Andrés Fontecilla and the Québec solidaire Green Plan.

Brachina

Wrong section this should go in the Quebec section, as its Quebec Provincial Politics.

Anyway honestly Marios screwed herself, she pissed off the right when she tried to appease the left and then pissed off the left when backed out to appease the right.

Still she could ironically serve a full term if the Libs and CAQ continue to block one another. This will not help her in the long term because QS supporters and sympathizers will continue to get more and more pissed off.

Plus the longer she does nothing to support soveriegnty the more Option Nationale will have to attack her for it and the more her own hardliners will become upset.

DaveW

yes, Macpherson has veered into almost William Johnson territory, and he used to be sensible to some degree, way back in the '80s when I first read him; now, rarely

but a stopped clock is right twice a day, and here DM has hit the nail,

seeing the Marois PQ at 27 per cent and sinking makes it truly spring after a long winter ...

DaveW

a pretty good analysis by Lysiane;

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/quebecs-liberal-rebirth-is-just-a-pq-fade/article11918847/#dashboard/follows/

really, if a party wants to decline and decay, picking an old party warhorse whose message aims only to reinforce the party base and not reach out, is surely the way: vive La Marois!

 

Brachina

Payer wall dude. Anywhere else this article appears?

Brachina

After what happened in BC can we trust what the polls tell us. Even in the recent bielection polls were off.

lagatta

Gagnon is about as spent as Macpherson, or Marois for that matter. She is pretty much a francophone equivalent to Wente now, though as somewhat better writer and not as sloppy about attribution. But she is a smug defender of the status quo.

DaveW

Brachina, it is on the Globe site, not sure where else to access;

Gagnon describes the lack of any honeymoon period for the Marois PQ , elected as Govt just last fall, and its insularity, refusing to reach out beyond its own base:

result, getting nibbled away on both left and right sides, and pretty much doomed:

[...]

... the Quebec Liberals’ current clout is essentially due to the PQ’s appalling unpopularity. Interestingly, Pauline Marois’s government is going through the same kind of nightmare as the French Socialist government of François Hollande, which has disappointed so many voters that, given a choice, a majority would rather see former president Nicolas Sarkozy back in the Elysée Palace.

Neither the French Socialists nor the PQ enjoyed the honeymoon usually granted to newly elected governments. Both have been characterized by erratic leadership, broken promises, botched policies followed by humiliating retreats, and cabinets in which too many ministers have been gaffe-prone neophytes or just plain incompetent. Both have been plagued with harsh criticism from left and right.

The PQ is in a worse situation, though, since it’s a minority government and has very little time to revamp its image. The party’s “anti-business” rhetoric has eroded its middle-class support, and its many turnabouts and compromises on key issues have alienated left-leaning supporters and hard-line secessionists. The PQ finds itself bleeding from both left and right flanks, as some of its supporters flock toward small ideological parties such as Québec Solidaire and Option Nationale while others go back into the Liberal fold.

...............

and Lagatta:

Gagnon has reported through all the eras of the PQ and was a compagnon de route way back, but yes, she is more interested often these days in the evolution of Ogilvy's than the evolution of Quebec society ...


 


lagatta

Here's a great little snippet about Lysiane Gagnon, from a few years back:http://www.ababord.org/spip.php?article668 not only disregarding people whose respiratory conditions are worsened by car emissions, but this classic line: « Encourager la marche ? Fort bien, mais les gens doivent pouvoir venir en auto au TNM ou à La Baie. Ils doivent pouvoir circuler en auto si le transport en commun ne leur convient pas. »

TNM (Théâtre du Nouveau Monde) is a few steps from the entrance to a métro station, and the métro is right in the basement of the Bay... And no, she isn't quadraplegic...

 

Unionist

Yeah, well, what about Richard Bergeron's unforgettable declaration: "Je fume parce que c'est bon pour ma santé"?

 

lagatta

Yes, that was utterly ridiculous. I think I'm not alone in sometimes wishing Projet had another chief. Alex Norris, perhaps?

DaveW

I would love Alex, but I cannot imagine him getting many anglo votes; I remember one set of online comments that called him a "Stockholm syndrome exemplar"" for answering an English question at a public meeting in French...

 

anyway, agreed, a new guard is needed. ...

lagatta

I think an anglo candidate who speaks beautiful French would be brilliant.

Angryphones wouldn't vote Projet Montréal anyway - they tend to be generally rightwing, and certainly fond of their cars.

Unionist

Alex is good.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Nice swipe at a group of people based on the language they speak.  Sort of reminds me of people in the West who talk about francophones  disparagingly.

lagatta

Kropotkin, do you know whom "angryphone" refers to here? It is a political reference, not a linguistic one. It means anglo hardliners (hell, all of them aren't anglos - one of the worst at McGill University was of Italian descent) such as William Johnson and Howard Galganov, who are always comparing their sad sort to peoples enduring persecution and genocide. They are definitely a rightwing rump group, our version of "Colonel Blimp". Most younger anglophones see them as utterly irrelevant. The francophone equivalent might be the "Nationaleux" (eux is a pejorative suffix, here for nationaliste) or "Blueshirts" (patterned after Black and Brown-shirted fascists, but wrapped in the fleurdelysé.

Lots of anglophones would vote for Alex. But not angryphones. As for Galganov, he has moved, in martyrdom, across the border to the Eastern tip of Ontario where he is spending his time attacking rights ... for Franco-Ontarians. He is an utter rightwing shit (was in the JDL too for a while). "Angryphone" is too kind.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

It is as stereotypical slur of a definable group. What else could it be. 

lagatta

Handslap to head. I don't understand at all why on earth you are accusing me of stereotyping anglophones when I was clearly referring to a very small, rightwing, virulently-anti-Québec subset thereof (that actually draws upon people of other ethnic and actual origins). I could say most of them are old codgers too, being not so far from codgerhood myself... Moreover, there is an antimatter-rumpgroup among francophones of the same vintage that young Québécois francophones see as hopelessly quétaine (tacky, corny), and I gave you a couple of common names for those.

Sort of like insinuating that all Jews are in the JDL, or all Muslims in Al Qaida. This refers to a specific group of retrograde extremists.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

lagatta wrote:

Sort of like insinuating that all Jews are in the JDL, or all Muslims in Al Qaida. This refers to a specific group of retrograde extremists.

That is exactly what I think the term conveys. It is an insult based on a bad play on words that implies a specific language group, anglophones.  Like all stereotypes it implies a slur on all people who fit into the category of anglophone. If I said Jews murder Palestinians or Muslims bomb public places it makes no difference if I then say no no it is only a subset I am talking about.

It is an insult to anglophones in general.  But don't take the word of an insulted anglophone.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

It is an insult to anglophones in general.  But don't take the word of an insulted anglophone.

I am a lifelong anglophone, with very little French, and I took no offense at all. In fact, I thought the term "angryphone" was rather clever. Just one more data point.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Thank you for telling me I was not insulted because you aren't. If that is the criteria then not much is an insult because one can always find a member of the ethnicity targeted by the stereotype who says whats the problem it doesn't bother me. 

I was just talking to my brother the other day about growing up in Ontario and going to a Catholic school that was mostly English but had a smaller French side.  There were two different playgrounds and we were not allowed to socialize with each other at school. There were lots of school yard taunts thrown out in passing. I was hoping the discourse in this country had progressed beyond that but I guess that is not the case in Quebec. May I respectfully request that you leave your internal Quebec language insults to people who understand them and know the right insults to hurl back. In the context of the country as a whole they are insulting and divisive.

Unionist

Kropotkin, I appreciate and agree with almost all your posts on a variety of subjects. But your last few posts here have been stupid, ignorant, and anti-Québec. It's actually because you don't realize that "angryphone" is a very real phenomenon, namely Westmount Rhodesians and their avid representatives of various media and political parties who deeply resent the supremacy of the French language in Québec and dream of a return to the days when in workplaces that were 90% francophone, workers needed to speak and read English to survive or get ahead.

I'm an anglophone who (like many others) ardently supports the primacy of the French language throughout the Québec polity. "Angryphones" are a tiny angry and still powerful vengeful group of colonialists, dreaming of their lost paradise. I do not share any kind of identity or community with them.

Sorry for the adjectives my friend, but this thread doesn't belong in "Canadian politics". It is about Québec alone. So don't feel insulted. No one here is talking about you.

Could some mod PLEASE move this to the Québec forum where it belongs... Thank you.

lagatta

Yes, and in a certain sense there is nothing specifically "anglo" about the phenomenon. I've met Pieds noirs of French descent and Portuguese who grew up in Angola and Mozambique with similar attitudes.

As I repeat, most younger anglophones (and quite a few progressive older ones) think these people are silly and pathetic, just as young francophones think a certain kind of extreme ethnic Québécois nationalist called "Blueshirts" or "Nationaleux" are pathetic. And I'm really peeved at the insinuation that I'm perpetrating bigotry against any ethnocultural group, though I guess wanting poor Alex Norris to be mayor may be cruel and unusual punishment, given the state of our fair city!

autoworker autoworker's picture

Actually, hundreds of thousands of "angryphones" have exited Quebec over the last 35+ years, and continue to sow goodwill about Quebec's ethnic nationalism throughout the rest of Canada, and beyond.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

I am insulted by a language based slur so you double down and call me stupid, ignorant, and anti-Québec.  Your logic escapes me but I get the personal insults that you threw at me for daring to be insulted.

I have never told you not to post about BC so WTF is this STFU you stupid, ignorant anglo.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Thank you for telling me I was not insulted because you aren't. If that is the criteria then not much is an insult because one can always find a member of the ethnicity targeted by the stereotype who says whats the problem it doesn't bother me. 

I certainly had no intention of telling you whether you were insulted or not. I did intend to dispute your claim that the term "angryphone" was "an insult to anglophones in general." That was why I said "Just one more data point".

lagatta

The only political party I belong to in Québec has an Iranian MP (half of our parliamentary delegation) and a Chilean President. I had been pondering whether a promising young Haitian member thereof might want to stand for the NDP here, in his very multiethnic, working-class immigrant riding, and whether an eloquently trilingual (at least) English Montrealer (here I also mean of English descent, I believe) would be a better candidate for the progressive/environmentalist municipal party here. Must find more "pure-laine QuébécoisEs" to talk about so as not to be accused of anti-majority bigotry!

By the way, a story about a real bigot. Howard Galganov in Eastern Ontario: http://www.lapresse.ca/le-droit/actualites/ville-dottawa/201005/11/01-42...

Unionist

autoworker wrote:
Actually, hundreds of thousands of "angryphones" have exited Quebec over the last 35+ years, and continue to sow goodwill about Quebec's ethnic nationalism throughout the rest of Canada, and beyond.

Well, thankfully they left some empty space for immigrants like me, who didn't arrive with the dream of dictating to 90% of the population what foreign language they should be speaking at work and in political and social spheres.

 

Kaitlin McNabb Kaitlin McNabb's picture

Hi everyone, this thread has been moved to the Quebec forum due to relevancy of the topic.

Also, if we could please refrain from insulting one another and using any language that may teeter on the line or be over the line and taken as a dig or swipe at a group of people or person that would be great. 

Please keep in mind babble is an area to promote discussion among everyone with respect to everyone.

DaveW

Unionist wrote:

autoworker wrote:
Actually, hundreds of thousands of "angryphones" have exited Quebec over the last 35+ years, and continue to sow goodwill about Quebec's ethnic nationalism throughout the rest of Canada, and beyond.

Well, thankfully they left some empty space for immigrants like me, who didn't arrive with the dream of dictating to 90% of the population what foreign language they should be speaking at work and in political and social spheres.

 

Autoworker: some people move, a trend with peaks and valleys, and it is normal in any living space to have demographic turnover;

 but the Anglo ** exodus** starting mid 70s was pretty much a surface phenomenon: Quebec has bounced up from 5.9 million people to 8.1 million people over the last 4 census periods that cover those infamous "35 years" which -- for international comparison --, is twice the rate of population growth of the most comparable U.S. state, Massachusetts.

As for anglos, I recently moved back here after 20 years abroad, and cannot help noticing there is now a 3rd private English local TV station, compared to the 2 when I left, and Concordia U. has sprouted hugely, covering much of western downtown with new buildings and faculties -- so some Anglos are still here,Tongue out happily or not, studying and watching local TV news (now, that takes guts) ...

 The promotion of French over the last 4 decades has been largely positive, and I always encouraged the pro-minority PQ members -- my one-time MNA Gerald Godin was especially close to the Greek community -- to help make the Anglo commmunity feel more welcome through more symbolic gestures at minimum, and a bigger place at the table for the active community. Whining and evoking the past solves nothing.

 

 

 

 

lagatta

I don't have the figures on hand, but I'd think even more people from the Atlantic provinces have moved westwards, in particular before the recent boom in Newfoundland and Labrador.

Interestingly, a great many young, "creative" anglo people (who are certainly not "angryphones" - once again, that is a POLITICAL category) have flocked here in recent years.

DaveW

 Parizeau makes some good points here about not "dramatizing" State  debt loads, and making unwarranted cuts:

http://www.ledevoir.com/politique/quebec/378283/ne-surdramatisons-pas-notre-endettement

funny that the PQ, in trying to look responsible and governmental, has become tighter with spending than needed, and hence cuts off its left wing, and with it, any chance of re-election...

bye bye Pauline, happily so, I think

 

Mr_R

Don Donderi is that Italian Angryphone. What a name. Say it again and again, Don Donderi, Dondon Derry, Dondon Derry...

Mr_R

Lucien Bouchard bequeathed that poisoned chalice onto the PQ. Despite repudiating the PQ and becoming a de-facto CAQ man, Bouchard's zero deficit obsession as a Winning Condition for sovereignty has not been expurgated from the party. It continues to haunt it. Politically, the PQ appears to be betting that it can encroach on the CAQ and that the CAQ in turn ends up fearing the end of a minority situation in the next parliament and thus essentially having it prop up Marois' government indefinitely. A de-facto PQ-CAQ government.

Mr_R

Oh, as for Angryphones, there's one hilarious phrase of theirs that they used back in the day; "Lamb lobby". Remember the Lamb Lobby? The ones who were not like them in the Anglophone community were in the Lamb Lobby.

lagatta

Yes, Marco Micone and others always had a laugh at Don Donderi, at the meetings of the Québec-Italie cultural association. "Defending English Quebec to the last Italian!"

Che stronzo, questo DonDon!

Mr_R

Don Donderi was last in the news for saying he believe in the existence of extraterrestials. Well, why not?

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Mr_R wrote:

Don Donderi was last in the news for saying he believe in the existence of extraterrestials. Well, why not?

Was he a Raëlian?