Quebec politics: Room for one more party

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6079_Smith_W

@ cco

Actually all I find bizarre about that is that the fellow hasn't seen a French language program - I find it really bizarre. The political stance I completely disagree with, but I can understand it perfectly. Under ordinary circumstances I'd rather spoil a ballot than vote liberal, even if the party I prefer to vote for doesn't stand a chance.

His reasons are his own. That's why even though I agree with the sentiments expressed here, I think it is always goign to be a factor for some people, and there is no sense or reason in badgering them to do otherwise. If it is a switch they are ever to make it is something they will have to come to themselves.

 

 

cco

Aristotled24: Couillard didn't play up his nationalist credentials at all. Charest only made the slightest murmurings. I think the idea that even Québec Liberals have to act nationalist is a holdover from the Bourassa era.

wage zombie

Ken Burch wrote:

I don't agree that the stars were aligned for QS this time, though.  It seemed to me that QS was sandbagged during the campaign by the announcement, right after the writ was dropped that there'd be a QNDP in the next election...I'm pretty sure that announcement was made mainly to hold QS's vote down by telling left-feds "just vote for the bad party ONE MORE TIME, and then next time you'll get to vote for what you actually want-but for God's sakes, DON'T vote for the party you mostly agree with this year".  Saying this, btw, is NOT the same as saying that Quebec voters take cues from outsiders-it is, instead, an acknowledgment of the effects carefully timed announcements by one party can have on the fortunes of another party.

Can any Quebec-based babblers corroborate this idea?  It seems unlikely to me that the announcement of a future attempt at another QNDP would've had any effect on the election.

cco

Smith: I find it bizarre too, but it's not at all uncommon (after he told me, I went around asking other fluently bilingual young anglo-Québecers) -- and I think that fundamental divide is more significant in QC politics than the "fed/sov" divide. The Liberals have a base for whom voting anything other than Liberal would be akin to taking a cyanide pill. The PQ may have a few voters like that, but given Couillard got elected in Roberval, there aren't nearly as many. Certainly the CAQ and QS don't have that kind of base.

cco

Yeah, I don't see it. I don't think the prospect of an NPDQ surfaced on anyone's radar this election.

lagatta

I thought cco's post was utterly brilliant. It is simply hard to express how odd that attitude is. And most of the programmes these anglo-Québécois are watching aren't Canadian either. They are utterly colonised by American crap. Oh, even francophones are, and people all around the world, but not quite to that extent.

You get the Liberal reflex vote among allophones too, but I don't know any young Italians or Portuguese who have never watched a French TV programme. Greeks perhaps, because as non-Catholics they were more "separate".

The weird thing about the PQ Charter is how it alienated Maghrebi Québécois, who are devoted French speakers and care deeply about the quality of language (no doubt the impact of the earlier French colonisation, but a way many people colonised by France - or by Britain for that matter - have reacted, speaking the colonialists' language better than they did).

At a certain point in the Charter insanity, some hospital workers complained about Haitian colleagues speaking Creole!

Ken, thanks for starting the new post. The Peoples' Social Forum might provide some ideas as to what kind of unity and dialogue can be possible, and how.

felixr

lagatta wrote:

The weird thing about the PQ Charter is how it alienated Maghrebi Québécois, who are devoted French speakers and care deeply about the quality of language (no doubt the impact of the earlier French colonisation, but a way many people colonised by France - or by Britain for that matter - have reacted, speaking the colonialists' language better than they did).

+1

A great reflection of the mindless nature of the PQ charter.

NorthReport

Whither the Left in Quebec?

http://induecourse.ca/whither-the-left-in-quebec/

Is Quebec more left-wing than the rest of Canada?

http://induecourse.ca/is-quebec-more-left-wing-than-the-rest-of-canada/

lagatta

Actually, i think many Québecois, and certainly "urban intellectuals", know that Saskatchewan is the cradle of social democracy in Canada, and indeed in North America.

The second post completely negates the national question, which makes Québec very unlike Ontario.

Ken, I hadn't read the description of Boisclair has homophobic, but as a way of talking about how homophobes outside major centres might view someone so "effete". Sadly, Boisclair had to face homophobia, as did Manon Massé. But he also had a deep sense of entitlement, which had nothing to do with his sexual orientation, and which did much to annoy others in the PQ. He was once the MNA for Gouin; I don't remember him being particularly present for people in the riding, though I could be mistaken.

The red-baiter commenting at the first post was a blast from the past. If only he knew how tiny, and how "post-glasnost" the remains of the Communist party are here... He didn't think to attack the "degrowth" collective. QS accepts collectives and democratic debate, and so far at least, there has been remarkably little sectarian infighting.

swallow swallow's picture

cco wrote:

Yeah, I don't see it. I don't think the prospect of an NPDQ surfaced on anyone's radar this election.

Agreed. I really don't think the spectre of an NDPQ was there in the slightest for 99% of people. We're not all waiting for Tom Mulcair to descend from above and deliver us from evil....

cco, thanks for the post about your friend. I'm in what's very much an anglo minority region (5-10% of the population), but you have accurately described most of the anglos I know here the Eastern Townships. The Liberals are the party that you are expected to vote for, reflexively and while holding your nose, yes, but as the best representative of "us." (What the PQ always wanted to ahcheive among francophones, but never will.) Many francophones are also voting Liberal automatically of course - I was told all through the campaign to vote, with the speaker's assumptio0n always being that voting meant voting Liberal. 

Some will have seen a few French shows, but among younger people who watches TV these days anyway? I imagine many anglos have seen Les Boys and dubbed films with francophone school friends, and we all see the French ads before the English youtube clips, but actually turnign on the TV and watching a Quebec show? Pretty rare. 

Wilf Day

theleftyinvestor wrote:
M. Boulerice, qui a été nommé la semaine dernière coprésident de la campagne électorale nationale du NPD en prévision du scrutin de 2015, a souligné que l'incapacité de Québec solidaire d'augmenter ses appuis à l'extérieur de l'île de Montréal fait aussi partie de la problématique. «En région, la réalité et la sensibilité des gens sont extrêmement différentes. Ils appuient le NPD au niveau fédéral. Au provincial, ils se retrouvent un petit peu orphelins. Ils ne sont pas prêts à voter pour Québec solidaire et c'est difficile pour eux de voter pour le Parti libéral. Ils vont probablement le faire à contrecoeur devant l'absence de choix.»

Roughly: Mr. Boulerice, who was last week named co-president of the NDP's national campaign for the 2015 election, emphasized that the inability of Québec Solidaire to increase its support outside the Island of Montreal is also part of the problem. "In the regions, people's reality and sensitivity are extremely different. They support the NDP federally. Provincially, they find themselves a little bit orphaned. They are not prepared to vote for QS and it's difficult for them to vote for the PLQ. They will probably do it reluctantly for lack of choice."

I'm sure Boulerice knows it's mostly the winner-take-all system which makes QS look unable to attract support outside the Island of Montreal.

QS got 12.0% of the vote on the Island of Montreal, 7.4% in Estrie-Centre-du-Québec, 7.4% in Outaouais--Abitibi--Nord, 6.9% in Montérégie, 6.8% in Laurentides—Lanaudière, 6.2% in Capitale-Nationale, and so on.

None of those results normally win seats in winner-take-all systems, except for the clump of QS voters in a small section of Montreal.

With proportional representation, instead of the 323,124 Quebec Solidaire voters electing only three MNAs, and none from outside the island of Montreal, they would have elected seven more. Maybe Manon Blanchard and Carl Lévesque in Montérégie, Vincent Lemay-Thivierge in Laurentides—Lanaudière, Marie-Ève Duchesne in Capitale-Nationale—Mauricie, Benoit Renaud in Outaouais, Abitibi and North, Hélène Pigot in Estrie-Centre-du-Québec, and Marie-Neige Besner in Chaudière-Appalaches, Bas-Saint-Laurent, and Gaspésie-Îles-de-la-Madeleine?

But this projection assumes voters voted as they did in 2014. In fact, more would have voted. The main improvement proportional representation would make in Quebec politics is to give voters more choice. Many voters would have voted differently -- no more strategic voting. We would likely have seen different candidates -- more women, and more diversity of all kinds. We could have seen different parties. Who knows who might have won real democratic elections?

CanadaOrangeCat

I am not sure how much political organization through the party system is going to change anything in Quebec in the next 4 years. The corruption story has big legs. If and when this gets cleaned up it is going to mean an improvement in the economic life of Quebec. World statistics show that official corruption is strongly correlated to lower living standards.

The big push has to be for an increase in wages for working people across Quebec. More and more agree with the call for a 30 hour work week with no reduction in pay, which I have been pushing for years. This is the best way to bring wealth back to the 99% from the 1% without arguing about taxes and distribution.

We need to organize and strike. We have to make them stand and deliver.

Unionist

*bump*

So, anyone still yearning for a Québec NPD? After all, if they can be the salvation of Nova Scotia (whoops), Manitoba, Saskatchewan (whoops), Ontario (whoops), and Alberta (jury out), surely they can save Québec from the extreme leftist separatists, yes?

 

jjuares

Unionist wrote:

*bump*

So, anyone still yearning for a Québec NPD? After all, if they can be the salvation of Nova Scotia (whoops), Manitoba, Saskatchewan (whoops), Ontario (whoops), and Alberta (jury out), surely they can save Québec from the extreme leftist separatists, yes?

 


That's right. What have the NDP ever done for anyone. I lived in Sask during some of the NDP rule. If I recall in the early 60's they brought in some legislation concerning health care. But I am sure it never really went anywhere or had impact nationally. I am sure Quebec will be better off with that well known progressive and union friendly guy, PKP.

Unionist

I knew Tommy Douglas. Pierre Ducasse, sir, is no Tommy Douglas.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

I don't see why anyone is arguing against an NPD.Look at our options as things stand.And I still believe that QS will never be a contending force without a new,'voter-friendly' brand.

I say this in the interest of QS. As it stands,they are the only party that can promise change--progressive change.Without an alternative,2018 is going to be an absolute joke.How do you debate when you are all ideologically identical?What a charade,a joke and an embarrassment.

jjuares

Unionist wrote:
I knew Tommy Douglas. Pierre Ducasse, sir, is no Tommy Douglas.

TC used to ride in our family car, so yeah I have a connection there.also. Besides I thought you would love to have a Que. NDP. It would let you do more of what you love -attacking people on the left. During the AB campaign I met a woman who was working for the NDP. Her first campaign was in 1949. She was now in her mid eighties. But of course she has wasted her life working for a party that doesn't reach your lofty standards. After all it's not really important that people such as her have dedicated their lives to try to bring some improvement to other people's lives. It's all just gist for your little cynical mill. That's what makes your posts so nasty, pernicious, and reactionary. In the end, you 're one of the best friends Harper has- a supposed leftist who spends all his energy attacking other people on the left.

Brachina

 Unionists is just pissed that his pet QS is being challenged if there s a Quebec NDP and that none Quebecers get to have opinions on this issue.

lagatta

I'm mightily pissed. It is sectarianism and splittism. That doesn't just come from the farther left group.

Pondering

Brachina wrote:

 Unionists is just pissed that his pet QS is being challenged if there s a Quebec NDP and that none Quebecers get to have opinions on this issue.

I could be wrong but I think Unionist is in favor of a Quebec NDP as am I. I don't see it is a betrayal of the QS at all. The Liberals of Quebec are like the BC Liberals. We have no moderate left. Quebecers are very open to new parties. The NDP would have a shot at winning their first election. The only reason the Liberals won a majority was because Pauline Marois was so incompetent and abrasive voters were driven away. Those not willing to go as far left as QS went Liberal.

Brachina

 Quebec now has the opinions of rightwing (Liberals), rightwing (PQ), or rightwing (CAQ) (QS is not in contention nor will it be). For fuck sakes, the Alberta is starting to look more progressive at the provincial level in Quebec, if Quebec doesn't get a provincial NDP, then your looking at decades upon decades of rightwing rule, is this what you want for Quebec?

lagatta

Well, what will happen is that the Québec NDP will split again on the national question as it has twice before (Parti socialiste du Québec and Parti de la démocratie socialiste) and you'll unseat the QS MNAs we've worked so hard to get elected, rather than taking part in building QS. You do know that what is in our platform, including national question, depends on the membership (there are extremely democratic consultations on all of this). Actually many analysts think QS would tend to become more "moderate" as it grows, with pissed off left péquistes and others joining it.

You can do whatever the fuck you like, but it is an act of political aggression against the most progressive elected party in North America.

sherpa-finn

As a long-standing NDPer from Quebec, - I am so with lagatta on this one.

And this sword cuts very deep, both ways. Not only would it be bad for the left in Quebec, it would be terrible for the NDP across Canada. (If the NDP has people responsible for "National Brand Management" they might as well head out behind the barn and shoot themselves.) The last NPDQ meeting I attended, I got to meet Paul Rose, official party candidate. Just saying ..... 

Anyhow, - was there are any actual 'news' behind this flurry of opinion? Or was it just a slow day in May and Unionist chose to stir some sleeping dogs .....

Unionist

sherpa-finn wrote:

Anyhow, - was there are any actual 'news' behind this flurry of opinion? Or was it just a slow day in May and Unionist chose to stir some sleeping dogs .....

Actually, three things happened:

1. One individual decided to open a [url=http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/npd-qu%C3%A9bec-provincial-par... new thread[/url] on this very topic, without taking two seconds to search and find the existing thread. As you can see, I corrected their error and bumped this thread so that the individual (if they actually gave a damn) could pursue their apparent interest in the subject.

2. Another individual decided to make a snarky personal comment about me, without taking two seconds to actually notice the reason why I had bumped the thread. Apparently it provides some gratification in an otherwise frustrating universe.

3. Two other individuals managed to make snarky or false statements about my personal political preferences (preceding your snarky comment), because it apparently provides them some gratification to do so in an otherwise frustrating universe.

Aside from that, I'm happy see some knowledgeable individuals (like you and lagatta - and there are others here) who actually know the history and understand that the demand for a NPDQ is merely the cheap and showy mirage entertained by some individuals who seek instant though fleeting gratification in an otherwise frustrating universe.

Other questions may be referred to Pierre Ducasse - although I heard a rumour that he had joined Wild Rose, unconfirmed as yet.

lagatta

We really don't want bad blood between the NDP and QS where I live - the riding offices of Alexandre Boulerice and of Françoise David are in the same little building, atop an Intermarché, at 1453 Beaubien East.

And in practice, the riding staffs work closely together - not on "parliamentary politics" but on services to people in the area, whether their problems are to be addressed on the provincial or federal levels, or both (and of course in touch with the borough council, which is Projet Montréal).

lagatta

Yes, the two largest ridings in Québec (both larger than a great many sovereign countries) are now both represented by Aboriginal NDP MPs. Obviously being Aboriginal (or racialised) doesn't excuse being a corrupt, ineffective or absent MP, but I've never heard anything dire about either of those, and Ducasse's behaviour does seem strange. I don't know him at all so I can't judge him; just saying.

Sherpa-finn, I suppose Nycole Turmel just won't stand for more than one new term? She is 72 years old after all, and while she seems to be in fine shape (she is very athletic), people often want a bit of a life of their own before they are too old and decrepit.

sherpa-finn

Apologies for the snark, Unionist! My intent was wholly light-hearted.  This time, at least.

FWIW, I did see Pierre Ducasse at our constituency AGM in March. But he did not stay until the break, so unable to check in with him on The Plan. I have seen nothing on the QNDP idea on any meeting agendas locally or provincially. And would have thought Pierre would of necessity be rather subdued / low profile after his failed effort to challenge a sitting NDP MP (aboriginal, no less) for the nomination in Manicouagan. He may simply be positioning himself medium-term to succeed Nycole Turmel as MP here in Hull-Aylmer in 2019.  

sherpa-finn

That is my assumption about Nycole, lagatta. I have no special info or insight. She had stepped down from PSAC in 2006, but was then pretty engaged municipally here for a number of years before Jack prevailed upon her to run for Parliament in 2011. 

So yes, its my assumption that at the age of 77, she may be inclined to distractions other than a second term as Minister of Public Works in a Mulcair Gov't. Smile

lagatta

Actually, Françoise David, who is a few years younger, is also reminding people that she doesn't want to be an MNA until she is too old and feeble to do anything else. Françoise is also athletic and fit - she and Nycole are old friends, which annoys some people in the RoC to no end as they see what they call "separatists" as some kind of alien beings. I suspect both have much more nuanced outlooks about the future of Québec, Canada and the First Nations. Many of us have been on the Bread and Roses and first World March of Women... I'm several years younger than either, but still, far from young. I confess I'd love to be eligible for a pension. Not because I don't want to work - I love the work I do, but the labour market for overeducated hippies has been very meagre, and I don't want some idiot bureaucrat to force me to work standing still all day in some horrible job and not even be able to walk to the bus stop home due to arthritis... (walking and cycling are fine; standing still for hours mortal).

jjuares

Unionist wrote:

sherpa-finn wrote:

Anyhow, - was there are any actual 'news' behind this flurry of opinion? Or was it just a slow day in May and Unionist chose to stir some sleeping dogs .....

Actually, three things happened:

1. One individual decided to open a [url=http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/npd-qu%C3%A9bec-provincial-par... new thread[/url] on this very topic, without taking two seconds to search and find the existing thread. As you can see, I corrected their error and bumped this thread so that the individual (if they actually gave a damn) could pursue their apparent interest in the subject.

2. Another individual decided to make a snarky personal comment about me, without taking two seconds to actually notice the reason why I had bumped the thread. Apparently it provides some gratification in an otherwise frustrating universe.

3. Two other individuals managed to make snarky or false statements about my personal political preferences (preceding your snarky comment), because it apparently provides them some gratification to do so in an otherwise frustrating universe.

Aside from that, I'm happy see some knowledgeable individuals (like you and lagatta - and there are others here) who actually know the history and understand that the demand for a NPDQ is merely the cheap and showy mirage entertained by some individuals who seek instant though fleeting gratification in an otherwise frustrating universe.

Other questions may be referred to Pierre Ducasse - although I heard a rumour that he had joined Wild Rose, unconfirmed as yet.


I believe you are referring to me in category three. Thank you. This is quite an honour. Gosh, first the AB election and now Unionist is upset with me. What a great month. And yes, it is gratifying but no I don't find the universe frustrating. In fact I find it very satisfying lately. Thanks for making my day.

Unionist

jjuares wrote:
I believe you are referring to me in category three.

Wrong. I was referring to Brachina (snarky) and Pondering (mistaken). Hadn't even noticed your obsession with me. I'm available Saturday night, though, if you want to do something about it. I like Italian.

If, on the other hand, you have anything of substance to say on the topic (you know, like, for a change), maybe we could skip dinner and go straight to the main course?

 

jjuares

Unionist wrote:

jjuares wrote:
I believe you are referring to me in category three.

Wrong. I was referring to Brachina (snarky) and Pondering (mistaken).

 


Darn! Obsession? No I just really really dislike nasty people. Nothing personal.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

jjuares wrote:
Besides I thought you would love to have a Que. NDP. It would let you do more of what you love -attacking people on the left. During the AB campaign I met a woman who was working for the NDP. Her first campaign was in 1949. She was now in her mid eighties. But of course she has wasted her life working for a party that doesn't reach your lofty standards. After all it's not really important that people such as her have dedicated their lives to try to bring some improvement to other people's lives. It's all just gist for your little cynical mill. That's what makes your posts so nasty, pernicious, and reactionary. In the end, you 're one of the best friends Harper has- a supposed leftist who spends all his energy attacking other people on the left.

What the hell? This post is wholly useless, except to attack another babbler. For the umpteenth time, people are allowed to dislike the NDP and still post here. That's the mod comment. So no attacking people you think dislike the NDP.

The personal comment is that this is just about as wrongheaded an interpretation of events as you could get in so short a space on so meaningless a topic (no offence, Unionist).

The other personal comment is that if the NDP try to railroad QS and start their own provincial party, it will backfire, and they will get found out. Not just in Quebec, but across the country.

sherpa-finn

Sometimes it really does just take the single piercing intervention of a moderator to bring order to the confusion and light to the darknesss.

At such moments, we are truly blessed.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

jjuares

Catchfire wrote:

jjuares wrote:
Besides I thought you would love to have a Que. NDP. It would let you do more of what you love -attacking people on the left. During the AB campaign I met a woman who was working for the NDP. Her first campaign was in 1949. She was now in her mid eighties. But of course she has wasted her life working for a party that doesn't reach your lofty standards. After all it's not really important that people such as her have dedicated their lives to try to bring some improvement to other people's lives. It's all just gist for your little cynical mill. That's what makes your posts so nasty, pernicious, and reactionary. In the end, you 're one of the best friends Harper has- a supposed leftist who spends all his energy attacking other people on the left.

What the hell? This post is wholly useless, except to attack another babbler. For the umpteenth time, people are allowed to dislike the NDP and still post here. That's the mod comment. So no attacking people you think dislike the NDP.

The personal comment is that this is just about as wrongheaded an interpretation of events as you could get in so short a space on so meaningless a topic (no offence, Unionist).

The other personal comment is that if the NDP try to railroad QS and start their own provincial party, it will backfire, and they will get found out. Not just in Quebec, but across the country.


Well you badly misinterpret much of what I said and then attack me for the little piece of fiction you concocted. First nowhere did I say people who dislike the NDP should not be allowed to post here. Nor did I say that at anytime on any other thread. For you to imply that , makes your comment worthy of contempt. I brought the NDP up as an example of people on the left he likes to attack. I started the post that way and ended it the same way-people on the left. If I meant the NDP I would have said the NDP. He characterizes people as being snarky. I defended the NDP in earlier posts but in another thread I criticized other pro-NDP posters for their hubris. Ever read some of his posts where he comments on people who live outside of Quebec and dare to comment on politics in that province? But of course he feels no compunction about commenting on other provinces. His posts rarely rise above snark. Oh the irony. It is amazing about the double standards that exist on this board. You have the power to ban me and I notice you have been rather promiscuous with that power. But the point is moot as I will now end my association with this site and not bother to post or to read it again.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

:'(

lombardimax@hot...

Where, if anyplace, do the federalist progressives of the Union citoyenne du Québec(UCQ/QCU) fit into the possible reformulation of the Quebec provincial NDP?

sherpa-finn

The UCQ got a total of 58 votes in the 2014 provincial election. And a little over 2,000 votes in 2012.

So, - where do they fit? In a phone booth. 

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