Vimy Park in Outremont to be renamed Jacques Parizeau Park

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Unionist
Vimy Park in Outremont to be renamed Jacques Parizeau Park

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Unionist

[url=http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/vimy-park-jacques-parizeau-1.3637...'s Outremont borough moves to rename Vimy Park after Jacques Parizeau[/url]

Quote:

A move by the Montreal borough of Outremont to change the name of one of its neighbourhood parks from Vimy Park to Jacques-Parizeau Park is stirring controversy.

The borough received permission from the City of Montreal's executive committee Wednesday to change the park's name to honour former Quebec premier Jacques Parizeau, who died last year.

Parizeau had lived for years on a street adjoining the small park.

Montreal's municipal council is expected to vote on the name change at its meeting on June 20.

But Jeremy Diamond is among those saying the name Vimy should stay.

"I think it's disappointing and I think it is misguided," said Diamond, executive director of The Vimy Foundation, a Canadian charity group that promotes the legacy of the First World War.

French Quebecers are being presented (accurately) as having hated World War I, which they saw (accurately) as Canada simply following Britain into some colonial battle, costing more Canadian lives than World War II did. Quebecers rose up against conscription and several gave their lives in that struggle.

The other side of the MSM coin is that "Canadians" are being presented as in love with the "legacy" of WWI, with the mass slaughter of Vimy being the defining moment that somehow created Canada as a unified nation.

Yes, many people are the victims of propaganda, and we can't really blame them for that. But if there were ever a referendum question: "Should we rename Vimy Park and leave Canada, or keep the name and stay in Canada?" - I know how I'd vote.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
"I think what we risk doing when we replace events that have happened 100 years ago, or 500 years ago or 1,000 years ago, we risk erasing them from our memory altogether."

He thinks Parizeau should be honoured in another way.

"Is there another park? Is there a roadway? Is there a town square?"

Well, first of all our primary means of remembering and teaching history probably shouldn't be through the naming of small municipal parks.  Or else where is "Japanese Internment Park"?

Second, buddy will be pleased to know that the nation of France has named an entire TOWN after Vimy.  And joking aside, it's home to Canada's largest war monument.  I doubt we'll forget.

Unionist

Thanks for that, Magoo - I concur.

But there's a big question here. When and how are we going to deal with the glorification of World War I? It never ends. In Québec, it has no legs. But what does the "rest of Canada" really know or understand about what happened there and why? I'm not suggesting that Quebecers have figured it out. But we all need to.

 

Misfit Misfit's picture

So you think that some racist French politician should be honoured with a park in his name who insulted immigrants? Didn't he say that he lost the referendum due to money and the ethnic vote? I have no problem with French politicians being recognized for their contributions to society, but blatently racist ones...no. And in a multicultural community...no. I think there are better leaders who deserve better recognition than him. IMO.

bagkitty bagkitty's picture

When are they putting out a call for bids for a new monument to be placed in the park? I have plans for a giant stainless steel box of tissues - the working title is "Money and the Ethnic Vote".

On a slightly more serious note, I too am tired of whoever is responsible trying to slap a commemorative label glorifying militarism on every park and natural feature in the country. Then again, a few signs and a little bit of paint are a LOT cheaper than actually paying on promises made to veterans.

Left Turn Left Turn's picture

I'm not a fan of naming the park after either Vimy or Jaques Parizeau. I wish they would find a name that is neither a First World War battle or a former racist politician.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

"Capitalism Park"

See-saw: 50 cents.

Unionist

"Racist". You know nothing about Parizeau. You are the poster children for why someday Québec may declare its independence. What a shameful display.

 

Unionist

Misfit wrote:
I have no problem with French politicians being recognized for their contributions to society,

He's not "French". Are you serious??

Quote:
... but blatently racist ones...no. And in a multicultural community...no. I think there are better leaders who deserve better recognition than him. IMO.

Two ignorant comments. Absolutely amazing. You believe everything you read in MSM headlines? Have you ever considered doing your own investigation?

 

Misfit Misfit's picture

They are not ignorant comments. Your ignorant opinion. Left Turn nailed it, IMO.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

"Jane Goodall Park"

Please don't call them "monkey bars".

Unionist

Both of your comments are ignorant - copycat comments from the MSM, without any investigation whatsoever. Shame.

[url=http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/jacques-parizeau-former-pq-premie... Parizeau, former PQ premier, slams charter of values[/url]

Get back to me when (and if) you've looked into this.

ETA: By the way, did you get that Parizeau was not a "French politician" - or do you need that racist comment further deconstructed??

Misfit Misfit's picture

Not everybody agrees with you, Unionist. Now give it up.

Unionist

You call someone "racist", you have a responsibility to justify that. I really don't respect your "opinion" without a little bit of, like, evidence. If your entire proof is based on a comment he made on referendum night, which he explained later - then you really haven't got the foggiest clue. Don't go name-calling a progressive political figure who helped bring way more progressive measures to Québec than the rest of Canada has managed to swallow to this day.

Misfit Misfit's picture

Jane Goodall park sounds great. However I think she was into chimpanzees, not monkeys. Gee, mYbe I can be called a racist for that one too.

Unionist

Have you looked into the article I linked, and other resources as to what Jacques Parizeau said and meant and fought for? Or do you just feel comfortable calling someone a "racist" because it tickles your fancy? 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Jane Goodall park sounds great. However I think she was into chimpanzees, not monkeys. Gee, mYbe I can be called a racist for that one too.

Exactly.  Chimps aren't monkeys, so ... Please don't call them "monkey bars".  That was the (failed?) joke.

6079_Smith_W

Misfit wrote:
So you think that some racist French politician should be honoured with a park in his name who insulted immigrants?

Oh for heaven's sake. Maybe we should start with all the "Churchill"s and "Macdonalds" in Canada. And every "Garnet" and "Wolseley".

Then work our way down to the "McClungs" and "Douglas"s until we just give everything a number.

jjuares

I listened to Parizeau's explanation for his ethnic votes comment. I was totally underwhelmed by his justification. Indeed he seemed to be doubling down on it, pointing out that polls were overwhelming ' No' in some areas. So what? Here is a thought experiment. What if he determined that gay voters had voted no. Would it be alright if he had said that they were defeated by " gays". Sorry, a vote is a vote and I place no premium on certain voters nor do I discount other voters. It is undemocratic to do so.
He may have done many good things but this comment is inappropriate.

Left Turn Left Turn's picture

Unionist wrote:

"Racist". You know nothing about Parizeau. You are the poster children for why someday Québec may declare its independence. What a shameful display.

Ok, we can debate whether Parizeau's "money and the ethnic vote" comment was racist. I would contend that he was referring not only to white anglos, but also to poc immigrants, arguing that if we hadn't allowed them to come to Quebec the referendum would have passed. If he was only referring to white anglos, it may not be the racist comment I thought it was.

Regardless, I think that Pareizeau's "money and the ethnic vote" comment was in poor taste, and that he is therefore undeserving of having anything named after him.

Misfit Misfit's picture

I agree with jjuares and Left Turn. If I was a POC living in Outremont, I know that I would be offended. And yes, I think we need to examine the Nelly McClungs, the Tommy Douglas's, the Sir John A MacDonald's, etc., and look into their racist pasts. There are some who do, IMO, deserve to have their statues removed and honours taken away.

Misfit Misfit's picture

Duncan Campbell Scott is one Canadian who I feel does deserve to have all honorariums removed.

Badriya

Misfit wrote:
Not everybody agrees with you, Unionist. Now give it up.

I am not a big fan of Monsieur Parizeau, but let's look at the facts.  He was an economist during the Quiet Revolution and was responsible for nationalizing Hydro Quebec and establishing the QPP.  He was finance minister in René Lévesque's and a long-serving premier ministre of Québec.  it is true he made a deplorable comment after losing the referendum, but he made a positive contribution to Québec society.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_ParizeauAnd if you don't like parks and buildings named after racists, look 

 

Badriya

Misfit wrote:
Not everybody agrees with you, Unionist. Now give it up.

I am not a big fan of Monsieur Parizeau, but let's look at the facts.  He was an economist during the Quiet Revolution and was responsible for nationalizing Hydro Quebec and establishing the QPP.  He was finance minister in René Lévesque's and a long-serving premier ministre of Québec.  it is true he made a deplorable comment after losing the referendum, but he made a positive contribution to Québec society.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_ParizeauAnd if you don't like parks and buildings named after racists, look 

 

Badriya

Misfit wrote:
Not everybody agrees with you, Unionist. Now give it up.

I am not a big fan of Monsieur Parizeau, but let's look at the facts.  He was an economist during the Quiet Revolution and was responsible for nationalizing Hydro Quebec and establishing the QPP.  He was finance minister in René Lévesque's and a long-serving premier ministre of Québec.  it is true he made a deplorable comment after losing the referendum, but he made a positive contribution to Québec society.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_ParizeauAnd if you don't like parks and buildings named after racists, look 

 

Badriya

Misfit wrote:
Not everybody agrees with you, Unionist. Now give it up.

I am not a big fan of Monsieur Parizeau, but let's look at the facts.  He was an economist during the Quiet Revolution and was responsible for nationalizing Hydro Quebec and establishing the QPP.  He was finance minister in René Lévesque's and a long-serving premier ministre of Québec.  it is true he made a deplorable comment after losing the referendum, but he made a positive contribution to Québec society.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Parizeau

 

Badriya

Misfit wrote:
Not everybody agrees with you, Unionist. Now give it up.

I am not a big fan of Monsieur Parizeau, but let's look at the facts.  He was an economist during the Quiet Revolution and was responsible for nationalizing Hydro Quebec and establishing the QPP.  He was finance minister in René Lévesque's and a long-serving premier ministre of Québec.  it is true he made a deplorable comment after losing the referendum, but he made a positive contribution to Québec society.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Parizeau

 

lagatta

"Ethnic votes" referred to a coalition of "ethnic élite" organizations supposedly representing the Italian, Jewish and Greek communities. Those organizations were and remain deeply undemocratic. I know the leftist Italo-Québécois who fought the Congresso, and we all know how any progressive Jewish people who were the slightest opposed to Israel's oppression of the Palestinian people were shut out of the Jewish Federation, which has re-emerged as a voice for "Israeli and Jewish" interests. There were similar challenges to the Greek organization.

"Money" referred to money flooding in illegally from the RoC to the No side. Some have insinuated that it was an anti-semitic dog whistle, but there was no evidence of this.

Parizeau was despressed and had more than a few wee drams in his throat at the time, and was made to step down from everything after the comment.

Alexandre Boulerice also caught flak for stating the obvious, that the "Great War" was crowned heads and capitlaists sending the sons of workers and farmers to massacre each other. Jean Jaurès and Rosa Luxemburg said the same, at a very sad socialist meeting against the war just before the guns of August. Both of them were murdered by militarists.

6079_Smith_W

Misfit wrote:
Duncan Campbell Scott is one Canadian who I feel does deserve to have all honorariums removed.

I think this is just fine. It is good to not forget:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/duncan-campbell-scott-plaque-update...

How is he any worse than the man on our 10 dollar  bill? Or the hundred? After all, Borden was PM when the government learned that the death rates in some of those institutions was 70 percent, and he did nothing.

And what are they going to do, chisel out the edifice of the Thomas Scott Memorial Hall in Winnipeg?

That is why this flap over Parizeau is ridiculous. I don't downplay what he said, but it isn't imposing the War Measures Act. He made an important contribution, and he deserves the honour.

Unionist

lagatta wrote:

"Ethnic votes" referred to a coalition of "ethnic élite" organizations supposedly representing the Italian, Jewish and Greek communities. Those organizations were and remain deeply undemocratic. I know the leftist Italo-Québécois who fought the Congresso, and we all know how any progressive Jewish people who were the slightest opposed to Israel's oppression of the Palestinian people were shut out of the Jewish Federation, which has re-emerged as a voice for "Israeli and Jewish" interests. There were similar challenges to the Greek organization.

"Money" referred to money flooding in illegally from the RoC to the No side. Some have insinuated that it was an anti-semitic dog whistle, but there was no evidence of this.

Parizeau was despressed and had more than a few wee drams in his throat at the time, and was made to step down from everything after the comment.

Alexandre Boulerice also caught flak for stating the obvious, that the "Great War" was crowned heads and capitlaists sending the sons of workers and farmers to massacre each other. Jean Jaurès and Rosa Luxemburg said the same, at a very sad socialist meeting against the war just before the guns of August. Both of them were murdered by militarists.

Thanks for setting the record straight, lagatta! And you might have added that Parizeau publicly told the PQ to drop their "Charter of Values" - which he said was really just an attack on female Muslims.

jjuares

lagatta wrote:

"Ethnic votes" referred to a coalition of "ethnic élite" organizations supposedly representing the Italian, Jewish and Greek communities. Those organizations were and remain deeply undemocratic. I know the leftist Italo-Québécois who fought the Congresso, and we all know how any progressive Jewish people who were the slightest opposed to Israel's oppression of the Palestinian people were shut out of the Jewish Federation, which has re-emerged as a voice for "Israeli and Jewish" interests. There were similar challenges to the Greek organization.

"Money" referred to money flooding in illegally from the RoC to the No side. Some have insinuated that it was an anti-semitic dog whistle, but there was no evidence of this.

Parizeau was despressed and had more than a few wee drams in his throat at the time, and was made to step down from everything after the comment.

Alexandre Boulerice also caught flak for stating the obvious, that the "Great War" was crowned heads and capitlaists sending the sons of workers and farmers to massacre each other. Jean Jaurès and Rosa Luxemburg said the same, at a very sad socialist meeting against the war just before the guns of August. Both of them were murdered by militarists.


Yes, the Great War was a great tragedy. Idiocy, greed, imperialism all played a hand in this. As for Juares he was unable to organize the general strikes in Ge many and France. Parizeau? When you listen to the broadcast he does talk about ethnic organizations and also though results in polls. So, there is an argument that it does smack of racism. I believe we should be careful with thiis though. Tommy Douglas once promoted eugenics. So like Parizeau he was responsible for progressive legislation and made this country a better place buthad some negative aspects as well. Edmonton' main square was renamed after Churchill ( I assume after the war). Churchill was a guy who was right about one thing and wrong about everything else. I am basically against renaming existening structures though. This is our history, good and bad and even the naming of these places tells us something of our attitudes at a certain time.

lagatta

Yes, but it seemed to me that someone else - you, if I recall - had already said that.

jjuares

lagatta wrote:

Yes, but it seemed to me that someone else - you, if I recall - had already said that.


Nope, not me. I had mentioned his comment was inappropriate but not racist earlier nor did I say he should be honoured. Now I am saying it does smack of racism but quite clearly he is a historical figure who should be honoured. It is tough to live with contradictions but to paraphrase Emerson, consistency is the hobglobbin of little minds.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

I don't think any politician who promotes intolerance should be honoured with anything more than a giant mountain of shit.

I think many statues.parks,streets and/or metro station names should be renamed on those grounds alone.

This 'French' politician crap is very MSM quality commentary.

I didn't care for Parizeau and can't think of anything positive he initiated or put into legislation,unlike René Levésque, who deserved his honour.

But it could have been worse.. They were originally contemplating changing Sherbrooke street in honour of Jacques Parizeau.

 

Misfit Misfit's picture

And I agree with Smithee. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Levesque. Levesque, yes, definitely. Parizeau, no.

montrealer58 montrealer58's picture

In Quebec they have named streets after people who have said and done much worse than Parizeau. Quebec would not be what it is today were it not for Parizeau, and I think he deserves some respect. He worked very hard. 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

The rewriting of history around WWI is ongoing. When conscription was introduced the vast majority of those who received papers merely ignored them. Of the minority who responded to the draft notice over 90% of them asked for exemptions. The main historic figure of the town I live in was a union organizer who was murdered by a Special Constable supposedly for being a draft dodger.

I would suggest that the park be named after the citizens who died in the anti-conscription troubles in Quebec City over Easter in 1918.

6079_Smith_W

Why do people keep calling him French? Seen it twice now in this thread.

He is not French; he was born in Montreal. He is Canadian if you want to be technical, Québécois if you want to be respectful. Francophone if you want to talk about his language and culture.

It has been awhile since I have heard the "go back to France" smear against sovereignty, I don't know if that is the intent, but that is the first thing it makes me think of.

 

Misfit Misfit's picture

You are the only one who has said "go back to France", Smith. Your assumptions are just speculative assumptions and nothing more. Give it up.

6079_Smith_W

I just realized I was reading wrong and that alan smithee had a similar reaction to the term as I did.

No assumption Misfit. Just telling you the first thing it made me think of, and how I would feel had I been in his shoes and called that.

 

Misfit Misfit's picture

I didn't say French Canadian but that is what I meant. French Canadians are a very valuable visible minority in this country who have contributed so much and helped to make this country the diverse wonderful nation we are. In Quebec, French Canadians are the dominant culture. The PQ is a dominant political party which promotes French Canadian interests well, one of which is Quebec separation. Sometimes, though, francophone interests do clash with allophone interests. In the case of the Quebec referendum, this very thing happened and henceforth the ethnic vote comment. At that time, Jacques Parizeau was the leader of the PQ party, a dominant political party that was governing at the time. My reference to his ethnicity was to highlight the position of power he was in at the time he made the slur. The allophone community was in a minority and vulnerable position and they voted in large part against Parizeau's wishes and interests. I actually think the allophone community should have a say in whether the park be named after him. And if there are people upset about it because of what he said, then these people need to be listened to. If they are ok with it, then so am I. If they are upset by it, then I support their disapproval.

Unionist

"The allophone community"? Wow. What's that - a community of people whose first language is not English or French? That's a "community" - really??? And they have some community leaders or representatives who should be "consulted"??

And the "French Canadians". They're a "community" too? Double wow.

Oh wait, sorry - you called them "a very valuable visible minority". Jesus H. Christ.

I thought we are all Quebecers here.

At least Parizeau sort of regretted his stupid momentary (and likely tipsy) comment. You've turned his foolish statement into a theory of Québec society, and you're pushing it 20 years later? One more wow.

 

jjuares

I don't know if it's fair to let one drunken comment define a life devoted to public service.

Misfit Misfit's picture

Most politicians regret what they did after they have said it. Wow! So profound. Trump would be the exception. There were a lot of a French speaking Quebecers who voted against the referendum but Parizeau singled out the ethnic vote. I think it means something.

jjuares

Misfit wrote:
Most politicians regret what they did after they have said it. Wow! So profound. Trump would be the exception. There were a lot of a French speaking Quebecers who voted against the referendum but Parizeau singled out the ethnic vote. I think it means something.

I didn't say he regretted it after he said it. If you are going to be sarcastic and nasty you might want to be a at least accurate. Hey, that's not profound either but it seems to be beyond your reach.

Misfit Misfit's picture

So I'm racist and I'm stupid. Wow! So he did not apologize. Wow! I'm racist and I'm stupid!

Misfit Misfit's picture

No, don't listen to the ethnic minorities living in Quebec. Their say means shit.

lagatta

"French Canadians" is at the least a rather old fashioned way of referring to francophone Québécois, Acadians and other French-speakers within the Canadian state, and many see it as slightly derogatory. And I fail to see how francophone people in Québec (who are the majority) and elsewhere in Canada (where they are a minority except in the heart of the Acadian region in New Brunswick and perhaps some villages in Northern and Eastern Ontario) are "visible". I don't believe Franco-Manitobains are the majority in St-Boniface or other places in the area, but they remain an important presence. 

You are associating people of many origins who live here with some very reactionary, self-appointed spokespersons. The organizations Parizeau was denouncing all faced strong challenges from progressives within those communities at the time. And some important communities here now had a very small presence over 20 years ago, in particular people from North and West Africa. There is also the new presence of a large number of actual people from France!

I don't think you are stupid, but you are commenting about something about which you seem to know very little.

By the way, despite a long history of insults to Francophones here, Mordechai Richler has earned the honour of having the library in the Mile-End neighbourhood where he lived bearing his name. And while that would have been too insensitive at the time, the quality of his writing deserved recognition despite his CONTINUED racist insults against francophone Québécois people (and no, not just "sovereignists"). Parizeau had no such history, he made one stupid, and probably drunken, comment after what for him was a terrible loss.

lagatta

There may be veterans' groups legitimately concerned about renaming a park honouring those who died in a horrific WW1 battle, but I've discovered that the organizers of the demo are a far-right angryphone group:

http://unitygroup.ca/

https://www.facebook.com/The-Unity-Group-Quebec-civil-rights-619408914752897/

And that is very interesting about Franco-Manitobans. Yes, I suspected that most of them were Métis.

 

Misfit Misfit's picture

Lagatta, you didn't imply that I was stupid. JJuares did. Thanks for butting in though. And thanks for assuming what I do and do not know about Canadian history. Rather presumptuous indeed.

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