Are there other sex workers/adult entertainers who enjoy their jobs?

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remind remind's picture

Quote:
yet imposing ones version of security upon those who do not require it is oppression in its own right, not to mention the characteristics that typically come with one size fits all morality.

 

Seems to me those who are pro-decrim no regulations want a one size fits all morality.

 

But I as I said I care little about those espousing a notion of morality dictates, not only is that not where I am coming from, but  it would be equivalent to others levelling charges against the decrim crowd that they want all society ascribing to their morals and poor health safety standards.

Neither are correct and neither are true across the board.

CookiesNScream

Woohoo! Sex workers rights! Kiss

To begin, I want to respect all perspectives on my first thread here. (As hard as it seems to be sometimes when people want my job abolished.) Love and respect are very important. I realize some people have had awful experiences in the sex industry. (To say the very least.) And to look for those who enjoy their job on here, is not to undermine people's diverse experiences or hardships.

I work in the sex industry, and I do not exchange bodily fluids out of personal choice and ability within my job description, just as exotic dancers, web cam performers, or peepshow performers. Although, obviously my job is a little more hands-on. The debate as to whether the dancers are sex industry workers or not, has been ongoing for some time. They can't even decide amongst themselves!  I respect that each individual can define their own work as they choose.

As a Dominatrix I get My submissives to do all sorts of ridiculous things and never copulate with them. It's a part of the power exchange that they seek. They are turned on by being denied, and feeling not worthy of such a thing. They are more aroused by a stronger dominant woman whom they worship, who would never deem them worthy of fucking. They get off on it!

But if a man gets excited from feet, and I show him my bare feet for an hour, and walk on him for a bit until he gets overwhelmed and has an orgasm? Oh Mylanta! Heaven forbid a man coming in to worship my feet rather than following women in the streets who are wearing sandals!

Or men who are cross dressers, and cannot come forth in their social groups or families to have someone, in this case a Dominatrix, to give them a healthy safe space in which to become feminized. I will teach them posture training, voice lessons, how to apply make-up or dance on the brass pole! This is a helping profession. These guys don't want anyone knowing they are wearing pantyhose under their suit pants, or that they pose sexy infront of the mirror in women's panties.

How many wives out there want to hear that their husband is an adult baby? But, these men can discreetly come to my dungeon and be diapered, and pampered and feel helpless and vulnerable...being spoonfed and bathed without prejudice. (By a woman head to toe in leather to boot.) I have a doctor who is an adult baby. He explained he is always catering to other people's needs and seeing me is his way to be on the recieving end of being nurtured. He has no other woman to do that for him within the context of 'adult babyhood'. Men are worried they will get served with divorce papers or will be ridiculed and humiliated.

As you can see, it is important for those who enjoy their work to be able to have a voice too. I was hoping this thread could open the door for us who enjoy our jobs to speak out. Not everyone can fit into the same category.

Maybe I have had a hard time understanding the abolishinist point of view, and came off the wrong way at the beginning. But as confused as I still am, I am learning by reading their remarks right here in the 'sex workers rights' forum.

I hope one day the clients won't all be seen as murdering rapists, and the workers won't all be depicted as cum dumpsters. Escorts do wear condoms which prevents the transmission of bodily fluids. Just like proctologists and estheticians wear gloves, or dentists wear face masks...everyone has to take precautions! When I read some of the body fluid comments I think people believe that escorts just sit around and are like, 'wow I really feel like catching full-blown AIDS today' Condoms are free these days at STI clinics and harm reduction services.

 

 

remind remind's picture

Oh tommy, that hit me a bit in the tummy....and got a pesky nose twitch...Embarassed

 

al-Qa'bong

CookiesNScream wrote:
As a Dominatrix I get My submissives to do all sorts of ridiculous things and never copulate with them. It's a part of the power exchange that they seek. They are turned on by being denied, and feeling not worthy of such a thing. They are more aroused by a stronger dominant woman whom they worship, who would never deem them worthy of fucking. They get off on it!

 

If ever a moderator job opens up here you have my nomination.

Stargazer

It is true remind. You have a giant heart and that shows. No one can deny that.

Tommy_Paine

"How many wives out there want to hear that their husband is an adult baby?"  "Men are worried they will get served with divorce papers or will be ridiculed and humiliated."

 

And women too.  Therein lies another tragedy in all this.  Puts me in mind of a Sue Johanson show I saw....geez, must be more than a decade ago.  Some guy from Sudbury phoned her, wanting to know about infantilism, because his wife told him she was into it.  Sue scared the bejesus out of the poor guy, going into details that maybe the woman wasn't even interested in-- but the guy was mortified and you could hear him mentally shut down.

And, I was thinking that while treating an adult as an infant isn't my thing, what a treasure that man had because his wife trusted him enough to confide in him this special thing.  Surely, things could be worked out.   Infant night on tuesdays,  Japanese bondage on thursdays, or whatever his special thing was.  

I'm all for people doing what they want, and I think it's ecstacy when they find it with the person they love.   Unfortunately, I think there are many vested interests making sure this is as difficult as possible. 

 

 

PeaceGuy PeaceGuy's picture

remind wrote:

Quote:
yet imposing ones version of security upon those who do not require it is oppression in its own right, not to mention the characteristics that typically come with one size fits all morality.

 Seems to me those who are pro-decrim no regulations want a one size fits all morality.

 But I as I said I care little about those espousing a notion of morality dictates, not only is that not where I am coming from, but  it would be equivalent to others levelling charges against the decrim crowd that they want all society ascribing to their morals and poor health safety standards.

Neither are correct and neither are true across the board.

Clearly the present laws have abjectly failed to do some of what the politicians intended - protect vulnerable people.  Some vulnerable people have been prostituted - physically or psychologically coerced into the sex trade by others.  These people clearly need better protection than they are receiving.  Laws can be crafted that address this specific criminal activity.  They also need sufficient resources to be allocated to enforcement of the law, something governments are loath to do with the current legislation.  A more narrowly focused law would prevent scant resources being wasted harrassing workers who have freely chosen this line of work.

The rest have chosen to enter .this field of work.  Some, possibly a majority, have done so as the least bad of limited options due to poverty and / or addiction.  The pimps & the johns do not drive them into the trade & if we just magically elimonate the johns, these people then have to choose something they percieved as being worse than prostitution, if they see any other options at all, to meet their needs.  These people are where they are because of the abject failure of our governments' social justice policies.  If our governments properly dealt with issues of poverty and addiction with adequate funding and programs that are seen as a better option than prostitution, these people will not make that choice & the johns wishes would be irrelevant to them.

This would leave those people who have viable options but freely choose to work in the sex trade.  Proper regulation & zoning is all that is necessary.  Some folks here seem to be really fixated on the public health aspects of the sex trade but I'm more concerned about tattoo parlours & manicure / pedicure shops.  The percentage of the population that visit these establishments where instruments may or may not be sterilized between customers appears to be higher than participation in the sex trade.  If society can manage these businesses with minimal or no health regulation, the sex trade is no different.  At least both parties can clearly tell when reasonable safeguards are being used.

IngridNevin

RE: poor health safety standards and testing requirements

 

I've read the discussion and would like to address just this point right now: as far as I understand, a lot of escorts are against mandatory testing because what services they offer and how many clients they see varies widely. A mandatory testing procedure is usually assumed to be the kind Nevada brothels practice, designed for several clients a day and hence the need to be tested weekly or by-weekly. Personally, I've come across a number of participants who only see a handful of clients a month, and most of those are regulars. Do they really need a test more frequently than every 2-3 months? I come to the free clinic here, I tell them everything about my history, and they don't want to come back more often then every 2-3 months!

Some escorts practice "everything safely", which usually stands for covered oral sex. Others do oral sex uncovered. Intercourse is always covered - at least, I never came across anyone who would confess otherwise, even though rumours do fluctuate on boards... There is one escort in my city famous for her uncovered blowjobs and high volume - in private conversations she said she gets tested either every week or every two weeks, I am sorry I don't remember exactly. Once again, that makes sense - and that was a comletely voluntary action on her part.

I think the opponents of mandatory testing are holding this position because they believe in the right of every escort to design her own testing schedule depending on her practices - and because, like myself, they have seen that most reputable escorts take their testing routines very seriously already. I say "most" just to be cautious, because I personally don't know a single one who would be an exception from that rule but I understand that my selection is biased.

spanks

The pimps & the johns do not drive them into the trade & if we just magically elimonate the johns, these people then have to choose something they percieved as being worse than prostitution, if they see any other options at all, to meet their needs.

 

yes pimps and john's DO drive women into the trade. eliminate the pimps and johns & womyn  could live free from the constant harassement that drives them into the sex industry in whatever form of it they go into.

The lack of "prostituted people" participating here on babble is probably much more influenced by their typical economic status and technological access

your onto something there. as usual it is usally the sex workers who are "privilaged" that are on here. same ones who are arguing for legalization or decrim. the poor ones are not one here the ones who are most expolited are not on here. my girls who r in jail aint on here (some dont even no how to turn a computer on) and aint none of them yellin legalize. they yellin keep your hands off my daughter. we dont wanna go to jail but aint none of us wantin our kin to be doin this so we dont want it legal. and aint none of us raisin our boys to be tricks we raise our boys right (if they have not been snatched by MCFD) raise our boys to respect womyn not by them. 
 

remind remind's picture

Thanks for the social justice lesson....

Did not know tattoo parlours had no regulations go figure....funny that part of their regulation systems requires autoclaves,  hazard waste disposal,  and they are checked regularily by health inspectors.

 

Quote:
B.C.’s regulations set the highest standard of worker protection in Canada from blood-borne pathogens. As of Oct. 1, 2008, all medical devices used in workplaces must be safety-engineered where workers are performing activities that put them at risk for exposure to blood-borne pathogens.

This regulation applies to a wide variety of workplaces, including hospitals, long-term care facilities, ambulances, out-patient services, home care services and tattoo parlors, among others.

In addition, the safety devices used must present the “highest level of protection” which ensures workers will be using the best-available technology to protect themselves from potentially deadly injuries.

Below is an excerpt from the B.C. regulation:

6.36 (1.1) On and after January 1, 2008 a needleless device or safety engineered hollow bore needle must be used for the following procedures performed to care for or treat a person

  1. withdrawal of body fluids
  2. accessing a vein or artery
  3. administration of medications or fluids
  4. any other procedure involving the potential for an exposure to accidental parenteral contact for which a needleless system or safety-engineered hollow bore needle system is available

6.36 (1.2) On and after October 1, 2008 any medical sharp used to care for or treat a person must be a safety-engineered medical sharp

6.36 (1.4) If more than one type of safety engineered hollow bore needle or safety engineered medical sharp is available in commercial markets, the needle or sharp that provides the highest level of protection from accidental parenteral contact must be used.

Safe work procedures and practices relating to the use of safety engineered hollow bore needles and safety engineered medical sharps must be developed and implemented before use of these devices.

 

http://www.bd.com/ca/safety/regulations/bc.asp

 

Public health aspects are part of the necessary and proper  regulations required,  which is why I indicated them.

spanks

Intercourse is always covered - at least, I never came across anyone who would confess otherwise, even though rumours do fluctuate on boards..

 

i did it uncovered. did it whatever way i had to to get the money for whatev i needed. know a lot who did, let us not kid ourselfes many do. why? becasue men want to, will pay more or just cause you need the score.l

spanks

susan davis wrote:

i have stated repeatedly ,i am a sex worker, call me a sex worker.

i did not defend the use of the word feminazi, i merely tried to explain it's origins....

so you do not care about the safety of adult consentaul sex industry workers....you state above that you do not give our voice as much weight as an abused or trafficked person. that's working well, let's pretend it isn't happening, and is sex workers choose this work they deserve what they get?nice.

it's clear to me that you have complete disdain for me, my work, my community. in a perfect world that would be considered discrimination and would be illegal.

how many sex workers lives must be disrupted in order to save the few? because they are the few as has been proven over and over. you simply choose to ignore us, the data, the numbers and chose to honor your own opinion instead.

we also care about abuses in our industry. we have described over and over the ways we could adress these issues without comprimising the safety of consentual sex workers.it is possible to meet both goals.

 

how many sex workers lives must be disrupted in order to save the few? 

 

as many as it takes to save the few. are you seriously suggesting we should not help the few?! we should beat down doors and look forever we need to.. i will not deny i saw girls who hated being there and told no one would say they were there against there will. please dont paint sex workes as so good they would repeort at risk womyn. your just said in your own words that at no time should the few come before you. 

 

PeaceGuy PeaceGuy's picture

remind wrote:

Thanks for the social justice lesson....

Did not know tattoo parlours had no regulations go figure....funny that part of their regulation systems requires autoclaves,  hazard waste disposal,  and they are checked regularily by health inspectors.

 

Quote:
B.C.’s regulations set the highest standard of worker protection in Canada from blood-borne pathogens. As of Oct. 1, 2008, all medical devices used in workplaces must be safety-engineered where workers are performing activities that put them at risk for exposure to blood-borne pathogens.

This regulation applies to a wide variety of workplaces, including hospitals, long-term care facilities, ambulances, out-patient services, home care services and tattoo parlors, among others.

In addition, the safety devices used must present the “highest level of protection” which ensures workers will be using the best-available technology to protect themselves from potentially deadly injuries.

Below is an excerpt from the B.C. regulation:

6.36 (1.1) On and after January 1, 2008 a needleless device or safety engineered hollow bore needle must be used for the following procedures performed to care for or treat a person

  1. withdrawal of body fluids
  2. accessing a vein or artery
  3. administration of medications or fluids
  4. any other procedure involving the potential for an exposure to accidental parenteral contact for which a needleless system or safety-engineered hollow bore needle system is available

6.36 (1.2) On and after October 1, 2008 any medical sharp used to care for or treat a person must be a safety-engineered medical sharp

6.36 (1.4) If more than one type of safety engineered hollow bore needle or safety engineered medical sharp is available in commercial markets, the needle or sharp that provides the highest level of protection from accidental parenteral contact must be used.

Safe work procedures and practices relating to the use of safety engineered hollow bore needles and safety engineered medical sharps must be developed and implemented before use of these devices.

 

http://www.bd.com/ca/safety/regulations/bc.asp

 

Public health aspects are part of the necessary and proper  regulations required,  which is why I indicated them.

I guess Canada starts and ends within the BC's borders for some people.  Such regulation is not universal across the country nor are all participants on this forum from the westernmost province.  We are talking about an issue of national scope involving federal law in addition to provincial legislation and municipal bylaws.

Health is a provincial responsibility under the constitutional division of powers.  Given that not all jurisdictions feel the need to enact regulations governing tattoo & manicure parlours, I suggest that those same jurisdictions might not feel the need to pass health regulations governing the less problematic sex industry.  They may choose to go with an industry code of practice instead.  or nothing at all.

Tommy_Paine

Just on tattoo's, I was kinda surprised when I found out that the Red Cross no longer wants my blood, because of my tattoo.

 

I think the opponents of mandatory testing are holding this position because they believe in the right of every escort to design her own testing schedule depending on her practices - and because, like myself, they have seen that most reputable escorts take their testing routines very seriously already. I say "most" just to be cautious, because I personally don't know a single one who would be an exception from that rule but I understand that my selection is biased.

 

Leaving testing to an individualized schedule makes sense for responsible and informed people, however, it's been the experience in other industries that business is not very good at self regulation, hence a mandatory schedule would probably be best.

Of course, the big concern is HIV/AIDS, and other STD's, but I wonder how much real emphasis there is on health and safety when it comes to BDSM practices?   One can pick up from informal sources on the net and in book stores what safe practices are, but it would be good to have a more formal and professional source of information.   Perhaps mandatory courses given by a trained health care professional... or ergonomist?

I often wonder how many injuries occurr through inexpert practices along these lines, however, whether it's in the sex trade or between couples, I doubt we could get hard data through emergency wards, G.P.'s or specialists, as people would be prone to not being candid on the cause of the injury.

 

 

susan davis

wage zombie wrote:

The lack of "prostituted people" participating here on babble is probably much more influenced by their typical economic status and technological access.  This topic certainly demonstrates that there are sex workers who choose their profession--but watch what other conclusions you imply.  Suggesting that sex workers on babble is in any way a representative sample of sex workers as a whole is likely to make people less able to hear what you're saying.

nice, try to diminish our voices in any way you want, the fact remains. many sex workers choose this occupation and are happy in their jobs.

watch what other conclusions i draw....a few people here should heed those words......

Unionist

Tommy_Paine wrote:

Just on tattoo's, I was kinda surprised when I found out that the Red Cross no longer wants my blood, because of my tattoo.

1. It ain't the Red Cross any more - they lost the contract.

2. They only make you wait 6 months after a tattoo - then you can donate again.

3. This has been in place for at least a decade IIRC.

 

susan davis

spanks wrote:

susan davis wrote:

i have stated repeatedly ,i am a sex worker, call me a sex worker.

i did not defend the use of the word feminazi, i merely tried to explain it's origins....

so you do not care about the safety of adult consentaul sex industry workers....you state above that you do not give our voice as much weight as an abused or trafficked person. that's working well, let's pretend it isn't happening, and is sex workers choose this work they deserve what they get?nice.

it's clear to me that you have complete disdain for me, my work, my community. in a perfect world that would be considered discrimination and would be illegal.

how many sex workers lives must be disrupted in order to save the few? because they are the few as has been proven over and over. you simply choose to ignore us, the data, the numbers and chose to honor your own opinion instead.

we also care about abuses in our industry. we have described over and over the ways we could adress these issues without comprimising the safety of consentual sex workers.it is possible to meet both goals.

 

how many sex workers lives must be disrupted in order to save the few? 

 

as many as it takes to save the few. are you seriously suggesting we should not help the few?! we should beat down doors and look forever we need to.. i will not deny i saw girls who hated being there and told no one would say they were there against there will. please dont paint sex workes as so good they would repeort at risk womyn. your just said in your own words that at no time should the few come before you. 

 

that's nice. another person who feels we deserve what we get as sex workers who choose. i never have been against stabilizing the few but at what cost? i don't know about you but my friends are dead and workers call me everyday looking for adive, safe places to work and equal treatment under the law.

this is a workers issue, not a "womyns"issue or do you deny there are male sex workers?

i am a sex worker and i live with the current regime everyday.

beating down doors in england and in vancouver uncovered NO trafficked women but did completely disrupt the stability of those safe work environments. in engalnd-900 brothel raids found no trafficked women. 15 women were found when a worker asked for police assistance but none were found during the so called "kicking the doors down"

have you ever been in a raid? i have. it's terrifying.

 this sort of attitude is exactly why the situation has become as bad as it has. actions taken against us with understanding of sex industry stability causes harm. period.

i remember going as a delegation to the police board and an officer telling us the exact same thing. yes, he would destabilize the safety of an adult consentual sex worker in order to "protect" a youth and yes , he considered us a reasonalbe casualty in the war on organized crime.

well, no more. we have bleed enough. yes save the children and exploited people....but not at the expense of another persons safety.

we do not get what we deserve because we choose sex work. article one states that all people are equal and deserve equal treatment, or are we prepared to throw the human rights charter out the window too in order to "save people"?

susan davis

spanks, i also take exception to you refering to sex workers posting here as "priveleged". i am extremely poor and fighting for my rights as a human being.

casting us as a-list hookers or high end escorts is just adding to our oppression.making assumptions about our lives is exactly what is wrong with the situation now.

you can try to diminish our voices but in the end you do not know me so don't make assumptions about how i live.

fortunate

wage zombie wrote:

The lack of "prostituted people" participating here on babble is probably much more influenced by their typical economic status and technological access.  This topic certainly demonstrates that there are sex workers who choose their profession--but watch what other conclusions you imply.  Suggesting that sex workers on babble is in any way a representative sample of sex workers as a whole is likely to make people less able to hear what you're saying.

 

But denying that they are a representative sample of sex workers as a whole is equally wrong, no?   There is an assumption, because you have been inundated with one perspective for too long, that the words of IngridNevin, etc are not the majority.  Based on what, exactly?  We have seen over and over that non-streetworkers represent over 80% of all sex work.  And the majority of indoor workers are there through choice, not through "pimping".  Pimping is still virtually relegated to street work, and I have yet to see any significant change to this.  So in what way can someone, in the majority, then be "prostituted".   It sounds like a verb, something done to women by someone else. 

re: femi-nazi comment.  It was in "quotes" after all, and referred to no one in particular, simply as a reference point based on the original posters comments.   I certainly wouldn't want to offend others, in spite of the fact that I have read many posts that are personally offensive due to the insistence on using labels, and definitions, and so on. 

There are many stories, as many stories as there are women.  Herstories, if you will, are not dismissable simply because they come from working sex workers.  And even that label is not necessarily the one preferred by women who work in this industry in this area.  Service providers seem to be the more widely accepted term, for us specifically.  But sex workers allows us to include dancers, actors, webcammers, models, etc.   I do not think it is necessary to attach yet another label in front of sex worker, like front line, or prostituted, and so on.   I see no reason why actually active sex workers cannot define themselves, rather than allow ex-sex workers to do it for them?

The majority of sex workers are in a very comfortable economic position, but many have no interest in pursuing online discussions, I have found.  If susi had not mentioned this site, I would not have known about it.  No one, other than her, sought me out to include my POV on this topic, nor the majority of sex workers who have much more of an online presence, yet I am sure some of the anti's out there knew full well how to find us.

fortunate

susan davis wrote:

once again, diminishing my work as merely selling or renting my vagina, is completely insulting. it is no longer "only me" posting as a sex worker. fortunate and cookies are sex workers.....

annie is a sex industry worker and her experiences are just as relevant as the stability of our industry is defined by the different genres, work availible in those genres and is dependent on all genres being stabile. dancers and escorts safety is interdependent.

i don't know why you are always trying to dissmiss us as if we don't exist and tote the only relevant position as being yours.we exist, there are many of us. although with the way these discussions play out i can't imagine many more being willing to take part here.

For the most part, my vagina does not even get used in an appointment lol, so the "renting" of it doesn't actually take place.  Renting my feet, or hands, yes, but not necessarily just the vagina, for what its worth.  Kiss

wage zombie

susan davis wrote:

nice, try to diminish our voices in any way you want, the fact remains. many sex workers choose this occupation and are happy in their jobs.

watch what other conclusions i draw....a few people here should heed those words......

I'm not trying to diminish your voice Susan.  I'm trying to help you eliminate unnecessary noise from your valuable message so that you can more effectively deliver it.

I have no need for proof that there are sex workers choosing their profession.  I personally know women and men who have made that choice and the choice was made by comparing the pros and cons vs other available employment (seems to me like an appropriate way to choose a profession).  I think it's ridiculous that people would try to tell you, a sex worker by choice, that there are no sex workers in the industry by choice.  With all of your experience and all the people you've met i suspect it is an even more ridiculous assertion, especially coming from people not involved in the industry.

But you were a good sport about it, and you brought more sex workers here to speak out.  That's awesome!  The voices of sex workers are under-represented just about everywhere, IMO.  And now that 4 people have come on to this thread, volunteering that they are all sex workers who have freely chosen their trade, it would be prtty silly for anyone to continue claiming that there are no sex workers by choice.

But then you go and say something odd:

Quote:

still waiting for all the many numbers of "prostitutes persons" to contribute......since after all there are so many abused people in our industry...

It seems like you are a) implcitly disputing that there are so many abused people in your industry and b) suggesting that IF there were so many abused people in your industry then we should expect to see them represented here.  Now i have no interest in arguing with you over a), since your knowledge of the industry is doubtless better than mine.  What seemed odd was b).  To try to imply anything about the sex industry based on the absence of victimized prostitutes here on this babble thread seems like quite the jump.

The reason it seems like quite the jump, besides being a babble thread (babble having a very non representative sample population), is that those people are unlikely to be posting on message boards.  If someone is a prostitute against their will then likely they have more immediate concerns than posting to babble (with this crowd?  are you kidding?).

Now again, i'm not going to presume to tell you what things are like in your industry.  You know much more about that than i do (duh).  I just thought it was a dumb comment, and so i pointed it out because i don't think dumb comments serve your cause.

Arguments around convenience will probably not have much sway here.  It's with the plight of the women exploited by the sex industry that the abolitionists are concerned.  And so offhand comments about those exploited women that seem uninformed (why aren't they posting here on babble?) will push people's buttons.  I suggest focussing more on how decrim or legalization could help the women who don't choose prostitution rather than how it could help the women who do.  At least for this audience.

Or, if you can get hard numbers on how it breaks down (by choice vs "prostituted") probably that could be productive.  People are unlikely to be swayed by your personal experience, which they see as anecdotal, if it contradicts their already held view.  You are probably viewed as having a privileged status in the sex industry which makes it more difficult for some to take your experience as representative.

It's unfortunate that some here are making you jump through hoops in order to earn credibility.  Hope you can stay with it.

Kanada2America

My answer to that is: I don't have a problem with your occupation. But what I do have a problem with is sex workers, prostitutes and strippers painting themselves as victims.

I don't believe you are victims. It is a  business transaction, and if some people need to use your services then that is what is going to happen. You are offering, they are buying.

Let's look at the amount of money you can make doing this vs. working as a Home Depot Associate, or at Second Cup. I mean, you have alternatives. You choose to do this work in this part of our society. I will never make the amount of money you will make doing this. You chose it, you have to live with it.

Kanada2America

spanks

i don't know about you but my friends are dead

 

my neice is dead. my cousin is dead and my friends to are dead. im am completely indifferent to what i not here to debate what i do what i have a problem with is the constant pollyana attitude that somehow prostitutes are social workers who will seek out the lost, forced and beaten and report them and get them help. its a lie, at least admit it. 

there is not a prostitute/sex industry type alive who has not come in contact with someone who they knew was suckin cock against their will. 

im not on sue's side nor am i on baptie's side i just think we need to be fucking honest. i know my girls want us decriminalized but i can tell ya for my grandaughter/cousins/neices etc everyone better keep your fuckin hands off her or ill tear ya apart. but who are we kiddin in this day and age with their shade of brown skin/hair/eyes we know its almost inevitable. 

anyone on here got some girls they love that they want to have stand in the place of my girls? didnt think so we gotta think of who's gonna be taking sue & friends place. 

my and my girls are tight like go to jail with each other tight and that bonds ends the second it comes down to him choosing me or her i need the bank. dead honest. 

also wanted to add that you are privaliged in my gals SRO she ain't got internet hook up. when i say poor i mean your rez is 8 hours from fuckin anywhere and ya aint got shit there. when i say poor i mean poor. 

i aint seen poor in a while im doing good now im scared of poor the way a girl is scared of tellin her man she didnt make quota. ill never be there again. 

fortunate

wage zombie wrote:

susan davis wrote:

nice, try to diminish our voices in any way you want, the fact remains. many sex workers choose this occupation and are happy in their jobs.

watch what other conclusions i draw....a few people here should heed those words......

I'm not trying to diminish your voice Susan.  I'm trying to help you eliminate unnecessary noise from your valuable message so that you can more effectively deliver it.

I have no need for proof that there are sex workers choosing their profession.  I personally know women and men who have made that choice and the choice was made by comparing the pros and cons vs other available employment (seems to me like an appropriate way to choose a profession).  I think it's ridiculous that people would try to tell you, a sex worker by choice, that there are no sex workers in the industry by choice.  With all of your experience and all the people you've met i suspect it is an even more ridiculous assertion, especially coming from people not involved in the industry.

But you were a good sport about it, and you brought more sex workers here to speak out.  That's awesome!  The voices of sex workers are under-represented just about everywhere, IMO.  And now that 4 people have come on to this thread, volunteering that they are all sex workers who have freely chosen their trade, it would be prtty silly for anyone to continue claiming that there are no sex workers by choice.

But then you go and say something odd:

Quote:

still waiting for all the many numbers of "prostitutes persons" to contribute......since after all there are so many abused people in our industry...

It seems like you are a) implcitly disputing that there are so many abused people in your industry and b) suggesting that IF there were so many abused people in your industry then we should expect to see them represented here.  Now i have no interest in arguing with you over a), since your knowledge of the industry is doubtless better than mine.  What seemed odd was b).  To try to imply anything about the sex industry based on the absence of victimized prostitutes here on this babble thread seems like quite the jump.

The reason it seems like quite the jump, besides being a babble thread (babble having a very non representative sample population), is that those people are unlikely to be posting on message boards.  If someone is a prostitute against their will then likely they have more immediate concerns than posting to babble (with this crowd?  are you kidding?).

Now again, i'm not going to presume to tell you what things are like in your industry.  You know much more about that than i do (duh).  I just thought it was a dumb comment, and so i pointed it out because i don't think dumb comments serve your cause.

Arguments around convenience will probably not have much sway here.  It's with the plight of the women exploited by the sex industry that the abolitionists are concerned.  And so offhand comments about those exploited women that seem uninformed (why aren't they posting here on babble?) will push people's buttons.  I suggest focussing more on how decrim or legalization could help the women who don't choose prostitution rather than how it could help the women who do.  At least for this audience.

Or, if you can get hard numbers on how it breaks down (by choice vs "prostituted") probably that could be productive.  People are unlikely to be swayed by your personal experience, which they see as anecdotal, if it contradicts their already held view.  You are probably viewed as having a privileged status in the sex industry which makes it more difficult for some to take your experience as representative.

It's unfortunate that some here are making you jump through hoops in order to earn credibility.  Hope you can stay with it.

I think the quote you quoted was meant as a rolling eye sarcastic comment, as susi has been inundated with some responses that focus on branding sex workers as "prostituted".  I may be wrong, but I do think she was trying to make a small joke there.

As for "hard" numbers, well I think that would be as difficult to do as it has been for those who come up with the "fact" that 80% of all sex workers have been abuse, started when young, forced into the trade, etc.  There are many stories, and to get a true idea of the real numbers, one would literally have to ask everyone currently working.  At the very least, any survey must include those some call "privilege".  Though I am concerned about the use of such a word, when an overwhelming majority of sex workers who engage in prostitution would be labelled as "privileged" simply because an overwhelming majority of them work in comfort, are not forced to work (at least not any more than anyone working in any job -- i.e. to pay the rent), make a decent amount of money, are educated or pursuing an education, and so on.   Susi is one of the few who have consistently worked in the same fireld for many years, at all levels, so speaks from actual experience.  I certainly do not have any concept of the realities of street work, nor do I care to experience it. 

But let us say one more thing.  This is what I do, it is not who I am.  To kanada2america, the hundreds of sps whose voices I have heard do not consider themselves victims.  If it is  offensive to be called a victim, in my personal opinion, I certainly would not choose to call myself one.   Nor do, I would guess, the majority of sex workers actually call themselves victims.   It is a convenient label, which then allows others to march in and "save" them all, I suppose, while ignoring what they themselves want or say they want.  I would also guess that many street workers want a safe place to work and to not be arrested in sting operations while they are working.  If they wanted to leave the business, there are options and places for them to go.  If they simply want to work, there are not.

susan davis

spanks wrote:

i don't know about you but my friends are dead

 

my neice is dead. my cousin is dead and my friends to are dead. im am completely indifferent to what i not here to debate what i do what i have a problem with is the constant pollyana attitude that somehow prostitutes are social workers who will seek out the lost, forced and beaten and report them and get them help. its a lie, at least admit it. 

there is not a prostitute/sex industry type alive who has not come in contact with someone who they knew was suckin cock against their will. 

im not on sue's side nor am i on baptie's side i just think we need to be fucking honest. i know my girls want us decriminalized but i can tell ya for my grandaughter/cousins/neices etc everyone better keep your fuckin hands off her or ill tear ya apart. but who are we kiddin in this day and age with their shade of brown skin/hair/eyes we know its almost inevitable. 

anyone on here got some girls they love that they want to have stand in the place of my girls? didnt think so we gotta think of who's gonna be taking sue & friends place. 

my and my girls are tight like go to jail with each other tight and that bonds ends the second it comes down to him choosing me or her i need the bank. dead honest. 

also wanted to add that you are privaliged in my gals SRO she ain't got internet hook up. when i say poor i mean your rez is 8 hours from fuckin anywhere and ya aint got shit there. when i say poor i mean poor. 

i aint seen poor in a while im doing good now im scared of poor the way a girl is scared of tellin her man she didnt make quota. ill never be there again. 

i remember being on the street and living in the SRO's after i got out of prison.at least we share some experiences in common. the workers who own and created canada's first sex worker coop included many workers form the street. the same as the history project, labor on the margins, ptsd project....in fact all our projects....

my primary concern has always been to support safety fow my sisters and brothers on street. please read my posts to understand what we are doing.

just because i have internet doesn't make me priveleged. i pay for it and everything else on my back.month to month i am one step away from being homeless again.seperating out sex workers on street from indoor workers in false. many of us migrate between venues as our capacityies and emotional stability fluctuate. we are all sisters and brothers.

i have made adult films, i have worked on street i have worked indoors.

and yes, i remeber once i was forced by my pimp family to watch another girl who's hair had been cut off and prevent her from running. no i didn't call police or let her go, i would have been punished. i did tell her please, they will let us out for work tomorrow, you can run then. i eventually ran too and was cuaght and beaten for my trouble....did i call police....no? did i call a gangster?yes....was he a heavy hitter? yes....was i ever bothered again by anyone?....no .....is this typical? no....i am extermemly lucky....they say 1% of women survive the DTES once on street. either OD, suicide, death by disease or murder ....i am a 1%er.

we have always maintained conditions on the street are dismal. we want safety and dignity for workers no matter their location in the industry. a toilette to use, a place to clean up after seeing a client...is that so much to ask? panic buttons and security....

of the founding coop members, 2 are dead and 2 more are diagnosed with fatal diseases. it sucks that we didn't give these workers what they asked for before they died, i hope to see some movement forward before these 2 or any others die.

 

martin dufresne

Thanks for these reality checks about enjoying one's job. I and the women of CLES are committed to creating - for the many women and youths who want them, indeed demand them - real jobs,  sorely needed detox facilities, affordable housing alternatives, child care and other support mechanisms. And having assaulters, kidnappers and pimps held accountable, along with the men to whom women without real choices are litterally delivered.

susan davis

wage zombie wrote:

susan davis wrote:

nice, try to diminish our voices in any way you want, the fact remains. many sex workers choose this occupation and are happy in their jobs.

watch what other conclusions i draw....a few people here should heed those words......

I'm not trying to diminish your voice Susan.  I'm trying to help you eliminate unnecessary noise from your valuable message so that you can more effectively deliver it.

I have no need for proof that there are sex workers choosing their profession.  I personally know women and men who have made that choice and the choice was made by comparing the pros and cons vs other available employment (seems to me like an appropriate way to choose a profession).  I think it's ridiculous that people would try to tell you, a sex worker by choice, that there are no sex workers in the industry by choice.  With all of your experience and all the people you've met i suspect it is an even more ridiculous assertion, especially coming from people not involved in the industry.

But you were a good sport about it, and you brought more sex workers here to speak out.  That's awesome!  The voices of sex workers are under-represented just about everywhere, IMO.  And now that 4 people have come on to this thread, volunteering that they are all sex workers who have freely chosen their trade, it would be prtty silly for anyone to continue claiming that there are no sex workers by choice.

But then you go and say something odd:

Quote:

still waiting for all the many numbers of "prostitutes persons" to contribute......since after all there are so many abused people in our industry...

It seems like you are a) implcitly disputing that there are so many abused people in your industry and b) suggesting that IF there were so many abused people in your industry then we should expect to see them represented here.  Now i have no interest in arguing with you over a), since your knowledge of the industry is doubtless better than mine.  What seemed odd was b).  To try to imply anything about the sex industry based on the absence of victimized prostitutes here on this babble thread seems like quite the jump.

The reason it seems like quite the jump, besides being a babble thread (babble having a very non representative sample population), is that those people are unlikely to be posting on message boards.  If someone is a prostitute against their will then likely they have more immediate concerns than posting to babble (with this crowd?  are you kidding?).

Now again, i'm not going to presume to tell you what things are like in your industry.  You know much more about that than i do (duh).  I just thought it was a dumb comment, and so i pointed it out because i don't think dumb comments serve your cause.

Arguments around convenience will probably not have much sway here.  It's with the plight of the women exploited by the sex industry that the abolitionists are concerned.  And so offhand comments about those exploited women that seem uninformed (why aren't they posting here on babble?) will push people's buttons.  I suggest focussing more on how decrim or legalization could help the women who don't choose prostitution rather than how it could help the women who do.  At least for this audience.

Or, if you can get hard numbers on how it breaks down (by choice vs "prostituted") probably that could be productive.  People are unlikely to be swayed by your personal experience, which they see as anecdotal, if it contradicts their already held view.  You are probably viewed as having a privileged status in the sex industry which makes it more difficult for some to take your experience as representative.

It's unfortunate that some here are making you jump through hoops in order to earn credibility.  Hope you can stay with it.

i am implicitley contesting numbers of people abused in our industry as put forth by our opposition here on babble.

i have tried to focus the discussion but to no avail, many people derail or hijack threads promoting their own ideas and preventing any movement forward, just look at the proposed actions threads in this forum.....zero response.

i do appreciate your wisdom though and it relfects my origional intentions for being on this board. it has proved to be somewhat difficult however i will try to continue.

susan davis

martin dufresne wrote:

Thanks for these reality checks about enjoying one's job. I and the women of CLES are committed to creating - for the many women and youths who want them, indeed demand them - real jobs,  sorely needed detox facilities, affordable housing alternatives, child care and other support mechanisms. And having assaulters, kidnappers and pimps held accountable, along with the men to whom women without real choices are litterally delivered.

while i appreciate that you are glad to hear i have experienced the same conditions experienced by other workers, it changes nothing. all customers are not evil pervert rapists, all business owners are not traffickers and pimps. to assume so is just as ludicris as saying all feminist women are lesbian man haters...clearly that is not true, you are a feminist and a man.

it's this middle ground i am trying reach. can we not admit that painting everyone witht the same brush doesn't work and is causing harm?

martin dufresne

Absolutely. I don't think you are doing it and I think you can admit I am not doing it either.

susan davis

but martin, by supporting the swedish model-the criminalization of all business owners and consumers you are painting them all with the same brush. the assumptio is that all cutomers are bad, all business owners are bad....this simply isn't true....how can you support a model that would completely criminalize all of these people and leave us no customers or places to work?

Slumberjack

There's certainly much to admire in what both of you have put forward as part of your passionate beliefs, both with Susan having joined recently, and Martin having been around here much longer.  With harm reduction or its outright elimination being a  visible common element, a middle ground of sorts shoudn't be inaccessible.

remind remind's picture

susan davis wrote:
it sucks that we didn't give these workers what they asked for before they died, i hope to see some movement forward before these 2 or any others die.

 

What did they ask for?

 

Because if 2 are sick from fatal diseases, they only thing that would have protected them was stringent health regulations, which most of you seem to think is unnecessary.

 

 

Stargazer

No remind, that is not true. "Most of you" as referred to in your post above (I guess we are the "you") just do not follow your line of stringent testing. Not one person has said testing doesn't need to be done. What people have stated, and what is obvious, is that you cannot force anyone to get tested (johns here). In fact susan has already discussed, in many many posts, the need for health and safety regulations. Just because what we have discussed doesn't meet your criteria does not mean anyone thinks testing is unnecessary. If I am wrong I would like some direct quotes from any sex worker on here who has stated health regulations are unnecessary.

Can we all try to stop inflaming these threads because as Slumberjack pointed out, there is a lot of common ground. If we could step back from our positions then maybe we can actually, you know, help people who chose to do sex work, and help assist those who have no choice.

susan davis

remind wrote:

susan davis wrote:
it sucks that we didn't give these workers what they asked for before they died, i hope to see some movement forward before these 2 or any others die.

 

What did they ask for?

 

Because if 2 are sick from fatal diseases, they only thing that would have protected them was stringent health regulations, which most of you seem to think is unnecessary.

 

 

they asked for a brothel, alternative income sources......what part of the coop are you missing....

yes,yes stringent health regulations.....has nothing to do with it.

fortunate

susan davis wrote:

they asked for a brothel, alternative income sources......what part of the coop are you missing....

yes,yes stringent health regulations.....has nothing to do with it.

Not sure if this is the best place for this.  susi is not the only voice out there, but sometimes you do have to poke around a bit to find them.  This article references other articles on the issue of decriminalization in the US as well as other things.   It may give some perspective.   I hope it leads the reader to click on other articles, blogs, links and so on and hear that there are many faces and many different voices, with one common goal.

www.realprincessdiaries.com/2009/10/donna-hughes-advocates-the-abuse-of-sex-workers/

This is a quote from a comment about the article I have linked here:.

"I would like to see some more solid statistics about the extent to which legalizing adult prostitution cuts down on child prostitution. The best I can do are things like this someone said on the internet, “I am quite sure that, while child sex workers would still exist, [if adult prostitution was legalized] they would exist in lower numbers. I mean, right now, how many child strippers are there? is stripping legal? Why do you think more interactive sex work would be different? At least if prostitution was legal child prostitutes would have to be able to get a good fake ID, as it is now, all they have to do is step outside.”"

I do hope some of you can open your already formed opinions to see another POV.   One of the comments refers to how certain laws and decisions about prostitution are made without any input whatsoever from sex workers.  Here is another quote, which I hope illustrates my opinion about that sort of thing:

"It takes a considerable amount of intracranial density, and great big set of brass ones to stand before a body of people and assert that a law that would make criminals out of sex workers, leading to their inability to get other jobs, losing their children, losing any job they currently held, possibly resulting in the loss of homes, divorces, etc., is going to “help them.”  Think about the sheer lunacy of such an assertion for a few minutes.

If we made such a claim about any other proposed law that did something similar, yet didn’t involve people who sell sex, we’d be laughed out of the room.  That politicians buy into this kind of shit speaks volumes about them as well, though.  No one’s ever accused politicians of being the brightest bulbs in the box, have they?  I’d call them whores to the likes of Hughes and her ilk, but I’ll not disparage the fine sex workers who use that term legitimately to describe themselves.  I’d not dare to denigrate true whores by associating them with politicians."

"So, in the face of overwhelming, incontrovertible evidence that these laws don’t work and actually bring harm upon the prostitutes, the only plausible reason for outlawing sex work is, quite obviously, punishing sex workers, not “protecting” them.  It is literally impossible to argue anything to the contrary."

"Assault, theft and murder are already crimes. Sex workers are targets because they are marginalized, not because sin attracts sin. Criminalizing sex work only punishes sex workers and makes them more vulnerable."

 

CookiesNScream

Everyone has their own story within their experiences working in the sex industry. One persons life story is not more valuable or more legit than anothers.

I am glad that the door was opened to showcase the diverse perspectives. We can all agree that exploitation, slavery, abuse, rape and/or the murdering of sex workers needs to end. Sex workers already try to take care of each other the best we can- for example the many sex worker operated, harm reduction, peer support programs that exist today. We are all part of a community and are sisters and brothers. 

It is completely appropriate and necessary to have a thread in the 'sex workers rights' section of the forum to bring together sex industry workers/adult entertainers who are consenting adults that enjoy their jobs. We deserve representation and we have a voice that needs to be heard as well. Those who are considered, 'privileged', shouldn't have their their views tossed aside. Specifically, when i speak of the great inconvenience criminalization has caused to those in my industry. Dominatrices do not even have sex with their customers, but Canadian laws had Terri-Jean Bedford arrested for running a safe indoor workspace dungeon in Toronto. it was considered a bawdy house because men got erections during their sessions. What a joke!

So, although some may not think that is important for me to bring up that it is inconvenient? Well it is in fact very important and I feel my human rights are being violated by criminalization around sex work. Is this not the 'sex workers rights' thread? Is this not a place where I should feel safe to speak my heart and thoughts? Having to worry about if the cops are going to do a bust while i am working, having potential customers scared to book because of all the police activity going on these days, having to be sneaky all the time so neighbors don't report us to the police. Having to worry about getting a potential criminal record... jail time... public exposure?? And I love my job, and feel it is mutually beneficial for both myself and my clients.

I think it is quite an assumption to think that those who are in negative situations within the sex trade are incapable of using the internet to be on this forum. I used to teach the street based sex workers how to post ads online all the time, so they could stay warm indoors and work from their phone instead of shivering in the streets. After all this intensity i have read on this thread, I believe the universe is protecting certain individuals from further harm, and that is why they are not here in the masses posting away. Would this be a safe space for all sex workers to post? I have only started one thread, and already don't think i can take it any more. 

This may be my last post.(And, it may not be depending on how I feel later.) However, I cannot believe how misunderstood, judged, scrutinized, and under appreciated I have felt from being here. From bonobos, to saggy boobs, and onward....Geesh!

I thank all those who have shown support for sex workers rights, and have contributed with good will. I have some healthier things to go do.

 

 

 

 

 

Michelle

susan davis wrote:

welcome ingrid and slumber jack!!meet remind and martin and infosaturated- they will be trying to undermine your perspective and ignoring your voices.try to ignore them, they can be a little rude.

This is not okay.  Please don't.

weswear-in-winnipeg

I too am a sex industry worker bi choice - I have just joined this site and I will be actively following and participating once I find my way around here...FWIW - I love what I do!!  It is a fundamental part of who I am and I will not allow anyone to tell me I'm being exploited or that I'm a victim...

susan davis

Michelle wrote:

susan davis wrote:

welcome ingrid and slumber jack!!meet remind and martin and infosaturated- they will be trying to undermine your perspective and ignoring your voices.try to ignore them, they can be a little rude.

This is not okay.  Please don't.

k sorry, but many sex workers find the type of language and ideas being promoted here difficult. i guess i am just worried about peoples emotions. this is difficult on all sides and i just want to protect my cohorts abit....

sorry

susan davis

weswear-in-winnipeg wrote:

I too am a sex industry worker bi choice - I have just joined this site and I will be actively following and participating once I find my way around here...FWIW - I love what I do!!  It is a fundamental part of who I am and I will not allow anyone to tell me I'm being exploited or that I'm a victim...

welcome WeSWEAR!!!

love susieXXXO

fortunate

weswear-in-winnipeg wrote:

I too am a sex industry worker bi choice - I have just joined this site and I will be actively following and participating once I find my way around here...FWIW - I love what I do!!  It is a fundamental part of who I am and I will not allow anyone to tell me I'm being exploited or that I'm a victim...

 

Feel free to add your two cents.  I believe there is a mention of a situation that is of particular concern to you; you might want to present your actual POV to add to the comments of those who have done it for you, lol.

martin dufresne

Lol and yuks... This baiting has a function: shifting the focus in order to give the impression that it is not pimps, brothel owners and johns - and their political friends - whom abolitionists are challenging, but women in prostitution. 

Stargazer

Baiting? Aw martin, stretching again I see. Nice!! You've outdone yourself. Congrats.

Take a look in the mirror.

 

You are not only challenging women in prostitution (sex work martin, remember? That is what they like it to be called. You probably forgot), you are attempting to ensure the state controls their bodies, our bodies, as women. You stand with REAL WOMEN of Canada. I don't know how you manage to twist yourself up so much about how and why people chose sex work. Why don't you start focusing on the exploited ones as opposed to hounding the ones who chose this work.

And full class marks to you for being so happy to find out susan had a hard time at one point. Pure class.

fortunate

martin dufresne wrote:

Lol and yuks... This baiting has a function: shifting the focus in order to give the impression that it is not pimps, brothel owners and johns - and their political friends - whom abolitionists are challenging, but women in prostitution. 

Well, it would be interesting to see what sort of safety net the abolishionists have in place to replace what the sex workers are currently doing right now.  In their zeal to attack the pimps and brothel owners, which btw are already apparently dealt with by current laws, they are directly affecting the livelihood of sex workers.  (If the current laws aren't working, why on earth would new ones work better??)  It goes without saying that criminalizing the johns will have a much more serious affect on sex workers:

 

As for Sweden, a report from the Norwegian Ministry of Justice and the Police (2004) found that “Sweden’s legal experiment did not greatly reduce the number of women engaging in street sex work. Figures from Stockholm show that the total number of women on the street has remained stable 1999-2003. The report found that during this period street sex workers became more fearful of violence, were pressured to reduce prices and were pressured to engage in unprotected sex.” (Ironically, Norway is now considering the Swedish Model.)

A study by the Sweden’s own National Health and Welfare Board also found that the law had put sex workers at increased danger of violence due to fewer customers to choose from. A study by the Swedish Police Board found that competition for few clients meant that prices dropped and sex workers were more likely not to use condoms or take more clients to try and earn enough money. The same study reported that people in the health care system expressed concern about health getting worse among sex workers.

The police board further mentioned that the law was an obstacle to prosecuting traffickers, since clients, who had previously assisted women and been key witnesses, were no longer willing to come forward since they were considered criminals themselves.

According to 20 Swedish sex workers that Petra Ostegren interviewed, many sex workers have moved to work indoors by placing ads on the internet. However, sex workers in flats complain that they must work alone and face isolation. Ostegren reports that the sex workers who were in the worst conditions to begin with, often drug-users or homeless sex workers, have seen the worst changes since they have remained on the street where conditions have deteriorated the most.

Sex workers report that police in trying to enforce the law swarm the streets where women are working with video cameras, even filming inside cars to find “evidence”. Police have also used condoms “evidence” of prostitution, discouraging both women and customers from carrying them.
What are other “reduce or end-demand” programs?

http://swannet.org/en/node/577

Kanada2America

Well I will add that I am talking about the "caste" differences of the sex trade. The most vulnerable are street level sex workers. The ladies and I suppose men, who do it in the so-called, "escort" industry, are less vulnerable. Oh they still may have a boyfriend who acts as pimp, or it may just be organized crime at work.

But either way. I don't think for a minute that any type of sex worker actually enjoys their work. It's just a job. I don't enjoy my work either, but I have to earn a living despite years of education that is worthless. Should prostitution be decriminalized? I don't know. The jury's out on that. Replacing one form of exploitation with another one doesn't address the issue.

But look at it this way. In some European cultures, having a mistress or a boy-toy is perfectly acceptable. The relationship is always an economic one and a sexual one, hence one-sided in a way. But it is one with two consenting adults. Is that prostitution?

Kanada2America

Stargazer

There are many relationships and exchanges that could be considered prositution. When a very young woman marries a much older rich man for his money, isn't that pretty close?

 

Kanada, I don't think everyone dislikes their jobs. I always like work, regardless of where and for whom it is the act that makes me feel good about things. Getting tasks accomplished, making people happy, being a good ethical worker...these are all important to a lot of people whether they are top management or doing manual labour.

I don't think it is fair to say that escorts don't like their work, especially when we have a few on here who do like their work. I think it really is best to listen and not assume or think "wow, they can't possibly like that job".I have a good friend who picks up garbage all day and while some would say, "how can anyone like that job", he most certainly does like his job.

I know I've been in these threads like a hard ass (I said hard ass not lard ass okay) but I'm leaning towards a more respectful discussion on my part at least.

fortunate

Kanada2America wrote:

Well I will add that I am talking about the "caste" differences of the sex trade. The most vulnerable are street level sex workers. The ladies and I suppose men, who do it in the so-called, "escort" industry, are less vulnerable. Oh they still may have a boyfriend who acts as pimp, or it may just be organized crime at work.

But either way. I don't think for a minute that any type of sex worker actually enjoys their work. It's just a job. I don't enjoy my work either, but I have to earn a living despite years of education that is worthless. Should prostitution be decriminalized? I don't know. The jury's out on that. Replacing one form of exploitation with another one doesn't address the issue.

But look at it this way. In some European cultures, having a mistress or a boy-toy is perfectly acceptable. The relationship is always an economic one and a sexual one, hence one-sided in a way. But it is one with two consenting adults. Is that prostitution?

Kanada2America

 

Anyone that hates sex and hates people would not enjoy this job, that is true.  But some people are pretty good at it, plus the perks are pretty obvious ones, don't you think?   I mean, in a way, most assumptions about clients are that they are a lot like the street workers.   Drug addicted, alcoholic, mental health issues, diseased, whatever.  The idea that it could be your (male) doctor, brother, son, father, uncle, neighbour, good looking 22 year old dude from down the hall, overweight but shy 70 year old widower from across the street, or whatever description you use when you (males) look in the mirror. 

Personally I would hate working at Tim Hortons, but then with my work and educational background, I am more likely to get work in middle and senior management so I have never had to "stoop that low" and work in a job that I am sure that everyone who does it hates it.  Personally I could also never be a nurse.  They have to deal with alot of nasty fluids and unhappy people, imo.

susan davis

Kanada2America wrote:

Well I will add that I am talking about the "caste" differences of the sex trade. The most vulnerable are street level sex workers. The ladies and I suppose men, who do it in the so-called, "escort" industry, are less vulnerable. Oh they still may have a boyfriend who acts as pimp, or it may just be organized crime at work.

But either way. I don't think for a minute that any type of sex worker actually enjoys their work. It's just a job. I don't enjoy my work either, but I have to earn a living despite years of education that is worthless. Should prostitution be decriminalized? I don't know. The jury's out on that. Replacing one form of exploitation with another one doesn't address the issue.

But look at it this way. In some European cultures, having a mistress or a boy-toy is perfectly acceptable. The relationship is always an economic one and a sexual one, hence one-sided in a way. But it is one with two consenting adults. Is that prostitution?

Kanada2America

have you read any of the testimonials here? i LOVE my work....why is that so hard to believe... just because you wouldn't do it......i so agree with fortunate and stargazer.....

fortunate

Well, after posting some polls, in a few hours I have replies from over 60 sex workers who agree with susi.   Enjoy the work, chose the work, like the work.  In fact, a few of them claim that they did imagine themselves doing this work when they were young lol.   Of the less than 15% who started underage, most of those were at least 16 or 17, more than half of them chose to do it for their own reasons,  and were definitely not coerced (by their own account). 

The polls will be extended to other Canadian sex work forums, and have really only been up for less than half a day but I will update as I hear more real stories from real sex workers.  It is not meant to be a scientific study, because the point is only to share real stories and information, not some biased anti-prostitution made up stuff that is based on a small segment of the total.

 

I expect to get several hundred replies, depending on access to other forums that I do not belong to as yet.   Kanada's post did make me think that I might additionally ask for a rating poll on how much they enjoy their work too.  Thanks.  I think it would be similar to anyone else's breakdown:  70% of it is great, 10% is boring, 10% is repetitive but neither good nor bad, and 10% is downright unpleasant.  Some of the indoor sex workers interviewed in a study that I read from several years ago said that they felt better about themselves after starting sex work than they had before.  Before they had self esteem issues or in general not happy in their lives.  They said that starting this work improved their lives and overall sense of happiness about themselves.

Tommy_Paine

Personally I would hate working at Tim Hortons, but then with my work and educational background, I am more likely to get work in middle and senior management so I have never had to "stoop that low" and work in a job that I am sure that everyone who does it hates it.  Personally I could also never be a nurse.  They have to deal with alot of nasty fluids and unhappy people, imo.

People aren't supposed to enjoy factory work, either, but there are few days in my job that I can say I don't like.  I find my challenges, I find the humour and the joy.  And, because I stop at Tim's on the way to work-- sometimes walking past and fending off the sales pitches of street sex workers to get my large regular, I note that there's workers on the street and inside Tim's that hate and enjoy thier jobs.

I tend to think maybe it has at least as much to do with the person as it does the job.  Maybe it's even entirely the person.

You know, it's great that another perspective on this issue has been shared, and perhaps an established dogma challenged if not replaced.  And, I understand time for a victory dance.

But, essentially it's about respect.  The best way to keep what you've earned is to share it out to others.   I know "stoop that low" was in quotes, and I think, Susan, that you used that phrase for lack of a better description of what you meant, but it assumes alot about women and the odd man who works at Tim's.  We don't know their circumstance.     I do know that many take a professional attitude to work with them, and I know they don't do it because they think night shift at minimum wage buys that, they  do it for themselves.

I have to respect that.  More than the mercenary like "professionalism" that I see from many so called professionals.

 

Way back at post number 64, maybe everyone thought I was joking (fair assumption, my own fault, not only do I joke around a lot, but I'm often very dry)  about the safety of clients in a BDSM setting.  But, there are safety measures for the client that require at least some knowledge or awareness of anatomy, and an awareness of legal and ethical responsibilities.   

People who enjoy their work, no matter what it is, tend to exhibit it through what's commonly called a professional attitude.

 

 

 

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