BC May 12, 2009 Election Discussion (Cont'd)

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NorthReport
BC May 12, 2009 Election Discussion (Cont'd)

The Tyee raised $25,000 online for investigative reporting on this May 12, 2009 BC election with some excellent results.

 

 

Guide to Tyee Election Reporting

Quote:
Ballooning payments to privatizers: The BC Liberals bragged that privatizing health record keeping would save money, but Andrew MacLeod discovered government payments to contractor Maximus have ballooned over 50 per cent, and neither the company or the government will give the specifics why.

BC Rail trust fund hiding its losses: BC Liberals created a $185 million trust fund to help northern BC with some proceeds from the BC rail sale, but shifted the funds to riskier investments that likely lost $25 million and, as Will McMartin reported, trustees are breaking the law by not revealing that information before the election. A professor of business ethics agrees it looks bad and the results should be released immediately.

Massive C02 emitter no one else noticed: As the parties battled over climate change policy, Geoff Dembicki discovered a massive gas plant slated for BC's northeast had quietly changed its pledge to sequester its C02 emissions, and now planned to vent enough gas to raise the province's entire emissions by three per cent. The BC Liberals offered no comment.

BC Liberals welfare to jobs story a myth: Premier Campbell campaigned on the slogan that the best social program is a job, but Andrew MacLeod pried loose the government's own report showing the BC Liberals' revamped welfare-to-work program hasn't delivered.

 

Quote:
Colleen Kimmett flagged very early the resulting divisions in the environmental community with her story BC's Clashing Shades of Green. Her theme was more than borne out as B.C.'s enviro groups boldly entered the political fray, siding with one party or another. We pulled the curtain back to show that Suzuki Foundation's chairman is a proud Liberal and that when high profile activist Tzeporah Berman declared she was quitting the NDP she wasn't actually a member. As enviro groups continued to tear at each other, we invited UVic's Michael M'Gonigle, a founder of Greenpeace International, to put it all in perspective. His two essays on "powering down" instead of revving up river energy projects and looking "beyond the carbon tax" received huge traffic and viralled all over the province and beyond.

 

 

http://thetyee.ca/Tyeenews/2009/05/09/ElectionReports/

remind remind's picture

Job Wave and associate programs for welfare to work, were never designed to work. They were designed to syphon off tax payer money to private enterprises, and CoC's and other orgs who advertised the programs. Plus in the minor role of tax payer money being doled out, businesses got 3 months of partial wage subsidy, which caused revolving doors employees.

melovesproles

Quote:
Let's say that the Ipsos poll is right and the NDP loses by about a 47% to 40% margin and the so-called greens pull up the read with 8 or 9 percent.  I can guarantee you that a few things would happen next - Carol James would probably step down. The next NDP leader will be someone who is a better communicator - but who will not represent any significant change in ideology from what Carol James represents and in the 2013 election, the primary strategy of the BC NDP will (and rightfully so) be focussed on how to peel away soft-BC Liberal supporters who are centrists. They will draw the conclusion that anyway you slice it - as long as 47% of people in BC vote for the party of the right - the NDP cannot win and the only answer is to reduce that number. Very litte time will be wasted on trying to whittle the green party from 8% to 7%.

And another guarantee that should go with that is that the NDP will continue to spin their wheels, alienating people who should be voting for them while failing to woo voters who view them with a deeply rooted prejudice.  If the goal is to peel off BC Liberal voters and get them to vote for the BC NDP then I would recommend a name change.  Maybe the 'Conservative Democratic Alliance'...

'If only we had a better communicator' doesn't really stack up either.  James hasn't been that bad at getting the BC NDP message out, everyone says she won the debate and she comes off as much more human and likeable than the creep we call Premier.  She has gone out of her way to suck up to Canwest and bashed her own candidates and the environmental movement but I'm not sure that can solely be blamed on 'her' communication skills, I think deliberate 'strategic' decisions by the BC NDP came into play there.

The BC NDP has muddied the waters on who is left and who is right, who is progressive and environmental and who is not, and I think that had more to do with the belief Stockholm articulated that they needed to appeal to rightwing BC Liberal voters than Carol James's communication skills.  The net result will probably be that the BC NDP has reduced their own numbers and not the BC Liberals at all.

 

Stockholm

I'm sorry to break the news to you, but the only way that a progressive government will EVER win in BC is if the proportion of voters supporting the Socred/Reform/Conservative/Liberal/Alliance party can be brought down to significant below the 46-47% they seem likely to get in this election. I suppose that if you are on the far left, it is distasteful to come to grips with the fact that the NDP has to either attract that sliver of soft BC Liberal voters or never win another election. There is no point in trying to win over NDP/Communist party swing voters - there simply aren't enough of those people to win an election, you have to attract swing voters in the centre. Sorry but that;'s the way it is.

remind remind's picture

She did not bash the environmental movement, no matter how many times you repeat it, it is not factual, she said she was going to ignore the pretend environmental movement (paraphrased). Which is where I guess you have decided to put yourself. Nor have the BCNDP muddied the waters inrespect to who is progessive and who isn't and who isn't environmentalists adnd who is, but the Green Party sure as hell has supporting Gordo and their Reform platform.

Quote:
Tzeporah Berman helped lead the Clayoquot protests of '93 ...but lately she's been slamming the NDP for opposing the carbon tax while throwing her weight behind a huge new energy strategy embraced by the Liberals: run-of-river (RoR) power production.

And she's pulling a lot of others with her -- while getting many others fired up in disbelief and anger.

Berman and her influential allies want us to believe that only by harnessing renewable "green" energy can we reduce global warming. And that the time for debate is past; now we must just do it.

I'm one long-time environmentalist who couldn't disagree more.

As one of the founders of Greenpeace International, EcoJustice, Smart Growth BC, the Dogwood Initiative, and other B.C. groups, I embrace real solutions to our environmental challenges, including climate change, and the movement to make them happen.

But in pressing for run-of-river, Berman and allies are only accelerating us down a doomed path that will destroy precious natural ecologies in British Columbia without making any significant dent in global warming, and undermine the work of many environmentalists in the process.

All right then, let's focus on really solving climate change -- and why Berman and her allies are dead wrong.

See this thread too

From this thread that you appear again to want to try and completely ignore now it is closed:

Quote:
Five leading conservationists and environmental scientists said yesterday that British Columbia watersheds are threatened by provincial government policies, and they urged the public to "vote strategically" in next week's election.

They were reluctant to endorse any specific party, but their pointed criticisms of policies introduced by the Liberals indicated they think a vote for the NDP would be in the best interest of the environment.

"When you see five people of this calibre gathered together to raise the alarm, you have to pay attention," said Craig Orr, who moderated a group news conference.

Making statements were Mark Angelo, chairman of the Rivers Institute at B.C. Institute of Technology; Elaine Golds, a biochemist; William Rees, a professor at the University of British Columbia; Alexandra Morton, a leading salmon researcher who has been campaigning against salmon farms; and Vicky Husband, a senior environmental advocate.

Quote:
Organizations and community groups from across the province have joined forces in a united front of opposition to the so-called "run of the river" private power projects or IPPs. Much has been made about the divide among environmental groups on the issue but grassroots opposition is very strong throughout BC communities. A broad spectrum of community groups, representatives and environmental organizations have signed on to a statement of unity which calls for a "green energy policy by promoting a vision of a sustainable community that includes democracy, accountability, conservation and community based public power."

The diverse list of supporter from across BC shows the need to both protect the environment and support democratic public control of sustainable power generation. Organizers expect the list to grow significantly as the public continues to learn more about negative implications of these projects.

"The run-of-river projects should more aptly be called 'ruin-of-river'," says Maude Barlow, National Chairperson of the Council of Canadians and Senior Advisor on Water to the President of the United Nations General Assembly. "Granting hundreds of multi decade contracts and 40 year water licenses to private corporations to divert rivers and run roughshod over BC's pristine wilderness simply cannot be called 'green'."

The list for Endorsing Organizations,Groups and Representatives is:

A-Line Communications (Vancouver, BC)
Apple Tree Productions Inc
BC Citizens for Public Power
BC Committee for Human Rights in the Philippines (Vancouver, BC)
BC Federation of Retired Union Members
BC Government and Service Employees' Union (BCGEU)
BC Guardians
BC Peace & Global Educators, PAGE
BC Teachers' Federation (BCTF)
Blewett Conservation Society (Nelson, BC)
Burke Mountain Naturalists (Coquitlam, BC)
Canadian Office & Professional Employees Union 378 (COPE 378)
Canadian Union of Public Employees BC (CUPE BC)
Cariboo Chilcotin Conservation Society (Williams Lake, BC)
Citizens Against Urban Sprawl Society (Mission, BC)
Citizens United to Save the Peace (Fort St. John, BC)
Community Action Coalition of Burnaby (Burnaby, BC)
Comuna of Consejo Indigena Popular de Oaxaca (CIPO) in Vancouver
Councillor Andrea Reimer, City of Vancouver
Councillor David Cadman, City of Vancouver
Councillor Karen Rockwell, City of Port Moody
Councillor Paul McDonnell, City of Burnaby
Councillor Pietro Calendino, City of Burnaby
Councillor Sav Dhaliwal, City of Burnaby
Councillor Tom Duncan, City of Duncan
Council of Canadians
Council of Senior Citizens Organizations
Council of Senior Citizens Organizations (Sunshine Coast Branch)
Friends of Bute Inlet (Discovery Islands, BC)
Friends of Eagle River (Powell River, BC)
Golden Branch of Wildsight (Golden, BC)
Greater Victoria Water Watch Coalition
(Victoria, BC)
Impact on Communities Coalition (Vancouver, BC)
Indigenous Action Movement (Vancouver, Coast Salish Territory)
Interfaith Summer Institute for Justice, Peace and Social Movements
(Burnaby, BC)
Kelowna Citizens for Public Power (Kelowna, BC)
Kelowna KAIROS (Kelowna, BC)
Malaspina Communities for Public Power (Powell River, BC)
Mothers Against Power Poles (Delta, BC)
New Media B.C.
North Columbia Environmental Society (Revelstoke, BC)
Parksville/Qualicum KAIROS (Parksville, BC)
Pitt Polder Preservation Society (Maple Ridge BC)
Purcell Alliance for Wilderness (Argenta, BC)
Salmon Arm KAIROS Committee (Salmon Arm, BC)
Save Our Rivers Society
Secwepemc Native Youth Movement (unceded Secwepemc Territories)
Seniors For News On The Bright Side (Vancouver, BC)
Shuswap Environmental Action Society (Chase, BC)
Social Justice Group, St. James Anglican Church (Vancouver, BC)
Society Targeting Overuse of Pesticides (Victoria, BC)
South Asian Network for Secularism and Democracy (Burnaby, BC)
Streams of Justice (Vancouver, BC)
Toxic Free Canada
Union of BC Indian Chiefs
Victoria Raging Grannies (Victoria, BC)
Watershed Watch Salmon Society (Port Coquitlam, BC)
Western Canada Wilderness Committee
Women Elders in Action (Vancouver, BC)
Women's International League for Peace and Freedom (Vancouver, BC)
2010 Watch (Vancouver, BC)

Unity in Opposition to Private Power Projects

 

 

ghoris

Isn't there supposed to be a huge pool of far-left non-voters, who would be motivated to get out and vote if only the NDP moved further to the left? I think I heard that somewhere...

Policywonk

Stockholm wrote:

I'm sorry to break the news to you, but the only way that a progressive government will EVER win in BC is if the proportion of voters supporting the Socred/Reform/Conservative/Liberal/Alliance party can be brought down to significant below the 46-47% they seem likely to get in this election. I suppose that if you are on the far left, it is distasteful to come to grips with the fact that the NDP has to either attract that sliver of soft BC Liberal voters or never win another election. There is no point in trying to win over NDP/Communist party swing voters - there simply aren't enough of those people to win an election, you have to attract swing voters in the centre. Sorry but that;'s the way it is.

Or, obviously, the rightwing vote has to split significantly.

Wilf Day

ghoris wrote:
Isn't there supposed to be a huge pool of far-left non-voters, who would be motivated to get out and vote if only the NDP moved further to the left? I think I heard that somewhere...

I don't think the numbers of far-left non-voters would do it. But I'm quite certain there are enough non-voters to make the difference. When every vote counts, more people vote; typically 8% or so more.

In my experience conservative voters are quite civic-minded; they turn out and do their civic duty even in safe conservative seats. That's why municipal elections, with low turnouts, so often elect conservatives.

Young people, working people, poor people, and others with marginal attachment to the electoral process are more likely to say "why bother voting." And more often than not, they are correct.

A fair, proportional, voting system would result in a lot more voters voting.

And a system like BC-STV would even count Green Party votes, most often by counting their second choices. 

 

Stockholm

Meanwhile, when the BC NDP won two byelections in November, the excuse from the BC Liberals was that they lost because the turn out was so low and their people stayed home!

brookmere

Wilf Day wrote:
Young people, working people, poor people, and others with marginal attachment to the electoral process are more likely to say "why bother voting." And more often than not, they are correct.

Young people, working people, and poor people form the great majority of the voters - I mean people who do vote, not just those eligible to vote -  in almost every consittuency.

I mean how many middle-aged or old, non-working, aflluent people are there anyway?

Another manifestation of the left mindset that if you vote Liberal or Conservative you can't really be young, a worker, or poor.

 

ghoris

Wilf Day wrote:

ghoris wrote:
Isn't there supposed to be a huge pool of far-left non-voters, who would be motivated to get out and vote if only the NDP moved further to the left? I think I heard that somewhere...

I don't think the numbers of far-left non-voters would do it. But I'm quite certain there are enough non-voters to make the difference. When every vote counts, more people vote; typically 8% or so more.

In my experience conservative voters are quite civic-minded; they turn out and do their civic duty even in safe conservative seats. That's why municipal elections, with low turnouts, so often elect conservatives.

Young people, working people, poor people, and others with marginal attachment to the electoral process are more likely to say "why bother voting." And more often than not, they are correct.

Sorry Wilf, but your post is internally inconsistent. On the one hand, "civic-minded" conservative voters turn out and (surprise!) conservatives get elected. Then you say that it is "correct" for young/working/poor people to say "why bother voting". Seems to me your own example belies that premise and creates a self-fulfilling prophecy - conservatives get elected because people more likely to vote for progressive candidates don't bother voting. Of course, if those people actually bothered to vote, the result might not be preordained. The only way your vote "doesn't count" is if you don't show up. Maybe if some of these progressive-leaning voters were a bit more "civic-minded", as opposed to (with apologies to Aaron Sorkin) "so howl-at-the-moon, lazy-ass stupid that they can't even be bothered to raise their hands" we might elect more progressive candidates.

I apologize if my comments sound harsh, but I really have no time for the excuses that are trotted out for people who don't vote and then complain that they're "disenfranchised" and "marginalized": "I voted but my candidate didn't win! My vote didn't count! Boo hoo, I feel so disengaged from the political process! I'm just going to stay home and play XBox next time - that'll show 'em!"

remind remind's picture

ghoris wrote:
I apologize if my comments sound harsh, but I really have no time for the excuses that are trotted out for people who don't vote and then complain that they're "disenfranchised" and "marginalized": "I voted but my candidate didn't win! My vote didn't count! Boo hoo, I feel so disengaged from the political process! I'm just going to stay home and play XBox next time - that'll show 'em!"

Na, they do not sound harsh, and I agree that those whining their vote did not count  and are thus are marginalized or disenfranchised, need to get a freaking grip on reality.

I have stayed at home, though not because of falsely perceived disengagement, and I found out how counter productive it was to myself.

remind remind's picture
NorthReport

She does have a point.

James makes appeal to environmentalists

 Whatever you think of the carbon tax, she says on the campaign's last day, think of parks, rivers and offshore oil
 

Quote:
Never mind the carbon tax, B.C.'s wild rivers are at stake in this election, New Democratic Party Leader Carole James said Monday in her final pitch to reclaim the environmental vote.
On the last full day of campaigning, Ms. James travelled through strong NDP territory with a confident message for her supporters about victory. But she aimed for undecided and Green voters who have balked over the NDP's promise to scrap the provincial carbon tax if elected.
Tuesday, as B.C. voters head to the polls, Ms. James will be relying on about 10,000 volunteers and the NDP's hired "poll cats" to carry the day by getting known supporters out to vote.
Ms. James told rallies up and down Vancouver Island that the race is close and will be decided by which party is best organized on the ground to ensure its supporters show up.

But her message was also centred on the need to keep "public resources in public hands," a reference to her party's commitment to slap a moratorium on run-of-the-river power projects.
"The future of our province is at stake," she told supporters.
Last summer, Ms. James was a vocal opponent of the Liberal carbon tax, and carried her promise to "axe the tax" into the campaign.
When speaking to voters in the Cariboo and the Interior, she was still beating that drum.
But on the last day of the campaign, she said those who support the carbon tax need to think about the rest of the Liberals' environmental record - on parks, wild rivers and offshore oil.
"Politicians often say it, but in this election, every vote really will count. I am reaching out to people who are thinking about voting Green, to people who have never voted before, to people who have voted Liberal," she said.
Later, she said in an interview that the NDP would battle climate change by putting a cap on emissions and allowing companies that exceed their targets to buy credits from those that come in under the limit.
"I understand they see [the carbon tax] as an important issue," Ms. James said as her bus travelled south on Vancouver Island heading to her home riding of Victoria Beacon-Hill.
Under the Liberals, she said, B.C. "will lose access to our streams and rivers. That's gone forever and that's a huge issue for people who care about the environment. This is about the future of our environment in British Columbia.
"So I am saying to those people it's important to join together."
The B.C. Green Leader, Jane Sterk, blasted Ms. James on the weekend for trying to poach Green voters. But Ms. James said only two parties are capable of forming a government today - the NDP or the Liberals.
"The central message is what will be lost if Gordon Campbell gets another term. The resources that belong to British Columbians - the rivers and steams, the public health-care system - that crosses over partisan lines.
"I'm asking people to join together in this election to make sure we keep those resources in public hands for the public good."

 

remind remind's picture

That is too ff, Sterk slams James for trying to poach Green Party voters, while the Green Party has poached most of the BCNDP's long held activities, actions, and platforms in order to try and poach NDP votes. Never doubt the hypocrisy of Reformatories, I guess.

remind remind's picture

Well, just went and voted, and my goodness  there was a line up out the door, in this small community, and this was before 8:15 and parents were in there registering with their children who are now 18 and over and who are first time voters even.

And interestingly, people who had just finished voting were actually outside asking others coming out, if they too had just voted NDP,  in fact I did not see anyone who didn't join the group outside. And then the "get rid of Gordo" rants started, and some of these were people I thought for sure would be voting BC Liberal, or even Conservative. I hope this scenario is being played out across the province. Even more interesting were the rants against Gordo that I had not eve heard about.

Stockholm

"Sterk slams James for trying to poach Green Party voters"

Sterk is so weak and ineffectual that I thank that being "slammed" by her is like being hit over the head with a feather duster!

Sean in Ottawa

I don't know Stockholm. Some people may have serious allergies and a feather duster might put them in hospital. But I guess we'll see how toxic the duster is tonight won't we?

Then there is the amazing power of propaganda. Maybe I live too far away to understand how BC could even contemplate returning Campbell to power.

remind remind's picture

BC people are fed a constant diet of anti-democracy propaganda screed form the msm media outlets.

Stockholm

If Ontarians were willing to re-elect Mike Harris in 1999 after the unspeakable horrors he was responsible for and after the forced amalgamations, the gutting of health and education, the days of action etc....then anything is possible. Americans re-elected Bush in 2004 too!

I don't like to carp about the press or the media being unfair, but in BC it really is an extreme case. At least when it comes to national politics or Ontario politics there is SOME variance in what the media feeds us - what with the Toronto Star or the Globe or the CBC etc...it may not be much but at least it isn't liek BC where the media 100% monolithically owned by Canwest and essentially works as a virtual arm of the BC Liberal party.

Debater

Stockholm wrote:

If Ontarians were willing to re-elect Mike Harris in 1999 after the unspeakable horrors he was responsible for and after the forced amalgamations, the gutting of health and education, the days of action etc....then anything is possible. Americans re-elected Bush in 2004 too!

Correction - Bush was not re-elected.  In order to be re-elected, you have to have been elected the first time. Wink

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

remind wrote:

BC people are fed a constant diet of anti-democracy propaganda screed form the msm media outlets.

 

I was surprised, a little, by the difference between the MSM propaganda in Manitoba and the MSM propaganda in BC. There is a difference; the very right wing views in much of the corporate media on Vancouver Island, e.g., is in jarring contrast to the views of many of the people that live here. The class warfare is more advanced here, and the boss class has many more victories under their well-fed belts than do working people.

Sean in Ottawa

Normally when the class warfare is more advanced people are more aware of it and people are less likely to identify with those they have a common interest with- this should worry the elites not make them safer.

Often we have class oppression without a class war and people become co-opted by the propaganda.

remind remind's picture

Nbeltov, here in BC it has gone past a state of simple propaganda, it is nothing more than blatent anti-democratic actions, It is pretty damn bad that I have to listen to Alberta CTV to get a more balanced view of what is going on.

People here are more than co-opted by propaganda, and then there is the whacked out fundamentalist religious vote that is fiull of propaganda from their churches. However those churches are moving into NGO areas so their congregations are being employed, while others are not.

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

That's a little garbled, Sean. I think people can be more aware of class conflict without being offered any political leadership to make sense of it and thereby resist further attacks. Without fighting leadership people become demoralized and inactive.

This election is an opportunity for stirring the pot and may succeed in raising awareness of the need for a fightback. If the NDP wins then I see a mixed bag in the new regime. I would expect James to move further to the right once in Government. If the Liberals win, then I see more assaults and MAYBE more of a fightback in response. The data on voter turnout, and on the STV referendum, should be interesting.

Harvey Oberfeld, a retired BC journalist, noted that there is a chance that Campbell may lose his own seat. Now that would be satisfying.

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

Where I am there is a lot of militarized thinking. I miss the Winnipeg Peace Walk. Perhaps I should start my own out here.

remind remind's picture

Oh would that be sweet!

Is it too early to start drinking yet?

Debater

N.Beltov wrote:

Harvey Oberfeld, a retired BC journalist, noted that there is a chance that Campbell may lose his own seat. Now that would be satisfying.

Have their been any individual riding polls of the high-profile races?

mybabble

I'll have my premier on Toast Please as I ate my problems for breakfast and I though he would do fine for lunch.  Which makes me think of the kids in my neighborhood who are either eating garbage, expired food or going with out.  As Children Cry, "Please Mr. Campbell don't take our teachers," our futures, our dreams or the food out of our mouths as they posted their crayon type posters in my neighborhood for us all to see.  It was sad for me as I looked back from on my bike and seen the poor little signs all for the worse and they had been rained on.  And its cuts like a knife to their futures which is the future of BC and how important is that?  As important as you want it to be so chop, chop lets go Axe those Liberals.

Sean in Ottawa

He is not my premier so do not need him on my toast. I'd be satisfied if he were toast.

Sean in Ottawa

N.Beltov wrote:

That's a little garbled, Sean. I think people can be more aware of class conflict without being offered any political leadership to make sense of it and thereby resist further attacks. Without fighting leadership people become demoralized and inactive.

This election is an opportunity for stirring the pot and may succeed in raising awareness of the need for a fightback. If the NDP wins then I see a mixed bag in the new regime. I would expect James to move further to the right once in Government. If the Liberals win, then I see more assaults and MAYBE more of a fightback in response. The data on voter turnout, and on the STV referendum, should be interesting.

Harvey Oberfeld, a retired BC journalist, noted that there is a chance that Campbell may lose his own seat. Now that would be satisfying.

I don't thinkgarbled - although perhaps we just disagree.

I think there is a correlation between the degree people see issues as a class conflict and the degree to which they identify with people of the same situation and recognize those issues in policy. This is fairly basic from Marx's conflict theory. I don't accept that in BC there is not a recognizable difference between the NDP and Liberals. The all parties are the same canard is one fed by selective individual policy comparisons but it does not hold up when whole programs are compared. The more people see that those who are of radically different means have little in common with them and lack common interest, the less they will identify with the MSM tripe that what is good for the capitalist elite is also good for them. Once they do this they can recognize in NDP social policy enough differences -- even without any presumptions of perfection-- to justify not voting for the Liberals. That this has not happened is a symptom of the fact that we are not there yet and people still buy the crap.

I also think that this like of identification by ordinary people of the party that has the greatest shared interests with them also delays that party's development as we are less able to focus on individual issues the party has to get right and is not there yet while we fight obvious political ideology wars with people supporting those who keep them down.

Sean in Ottawa

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

N.Beltov wrote:

That's a little garbled, Sean. I think people can be more aware of class conflict without being offered any political leadership to make sense of it and thereby resist further attacks. Without fighting leadership people become demoralized and inactive.

This election is an opportunity for stirring the pot and may succeed in raising awareness of the need for a fightback. If the NDP wins then I see a mixed bag in the new regime. I would expect James to move further to the right once in Government. If the Liberals win, then I see more assaults and MAYBE more of a fightback in response. The data on voter turnout, and on the STV referendum, should be interesting.

Harvey Oberfeld, a retired BC journalist, noted that there is a chance that Campbell may lose his own seat. Now that would be satisfying.

I don't thinkgarbled - although perhaps we just disagree.

I think there is a correlation between the degree people see issues as a class conflict and the degree to which they identify with people of the same situation and recognize those issues in policy. This is fairly basic from Marx's conflict theory. I don't accept that in BC there is not a recognizable difference between the NDP and Liberals. The all parties are the same canard is one fed by selective individual policy comparisons but it does not hold up when whole programs are compared. The more people see that those who are of radically different means have little in common with them and lack common interest, the less they will identify with the MSM tripe that what is good for the capitalist elite is also good for them. Once they do this they can recognize in NDP social policy enough differences -- even without any presumptions of perfection-- to justify not voting for the Liberals. That this has not happened is a symptom of the fact that we are not there yet and people still buy the crap.

I also think that this lack of identification by ordinary people of the party that has the greatest shared interests with them also delays that party's development as we are less able to focus on individual issues the party has to get right and is not there yet while we fight obvious political ideology wars with people supporting those who keep them down.

no1important

Hopefully come 2013 the NDP will have a better leader, be more organised so they can win. I am shocked Oppal won by so much as well.

remind remind's picture

Well, BC is lost, Green Party has fulfilled their function, and thus bear culpability for what will now happen.

Knew they would get less than what polls showed, and indeed they got well less than 10%, though they got just enough to play the spoiler, well done at returning Gordo to power and destroying the province environmentally. Congratulations on your win, that will be a loss for us all.

STV is going down to a resounding defeat along with the Green Party. Says much actually.

 

 

.

Debater

Conservative party leader finishes in 3rd place in his riding

Frank_

Why would the NDP replace a leader who got more votes than Harcourt, Barrett or Clark and who increased her popular vote every time out?

 

Frank_

How about all those babblers who declared Carole's stance on the carbon tax would ruin her?   She got more votes.

 

 

 

Chester Drawers

Who's to say those green voters would have all voted NDP.  Liberals had the carbon tax, Greens are in favor of that type of thing.  Even if the green vote was split 50/50, Gordo wins still.  It appears a larger portion of the BC population likes Libs more than Dippers and the voter is always right, whether we like it or not.

remind remind's picture

They wouldn't

Frank_

Nice to see places like Prince George-Mackenzie voted Liberal.  Geez, is there something in the water up there?

 

Debater

CBC Projects that STV Fails

Chester Drawers

Come on the people in PrinceGeorge-Mackenzie exercised their right to vote as the saw fit.  Ya have to live with the results and not insult those that voted differently than you. It's not the water, it's the message that they heard that had them elect the person they did.

Frank_

Oh grow up, no one was questioning their right to vote.   But if half your town has either moved away or is packing and you vote for "4 more years!" then I hope they won't mind if I don't shed a tear for them.

 

Chester Drawers

No one is asking you to shed a tear, these people will live with their vote.  It is obvious that 55% of them like the Libs, live with it.  It has no impact on your life how that community voted just as your vote has no impact on their community.

Frank_

Actually, as long as Mackenzie is part of BC their vote does have an effect on me and vice versa.  I didn't see it but I hear Joy Macphail was pretty shocked at Mackenzie too.

 

 

melovesproles

I thought the NDP's axe the tax campaign was going to deliver the vote outside Vancouver? 

 

Carole's speech about working together with Gordon Cambell was a pretty good example of why the NDP has been such an ineffectual opposition.

Electoral reform got defeated so we are guaranteed to an eternity of more whining about splitting the vote from whichever party is in second place in the polls.

Basement Dweller

Just a few observations:

- The NDP failed to make gains in the Interior, and may even have a loss or two. It appears those voters reacted with fear to the economic collapse. I didn't expect this to this extent, but it shows what a city dweller I am.

- Suburban Vancouver was better for the NDP than expected. I don't think there are any loses, although no more than one or two gains.

- We must throw out the notion that there are more wasted Liberal votes. Look at the huge majorities many NDP MLAs received. At the same time, look at places like Chilliwack or some Okanagan seats to see smaller Liberal pluralities. The NDP vote is no longer efficient.

- The Greens are fading away. As I mentioned earlier, it was an abysmal campaign. There is nothing good for them here. If they elect another ineffective leader they will get thrown out of the debates.

Stockholm

The winner is Angus Reid and online election polling. It looks like the popular vote will end up being quite close about 45.7 to 42.2 - and they projected 44-42. All the telephone polls were projecting a big Liberal lead of 8-10 points.

Stockholm

I'm delighted to see the so-called Green party crushed like a bug on the sidewalk.

Lord Palmerston

[sarcasm]But...but...anybody can vote multiple times in these "push polls" [sarcasm]

Basement Dweller

Correction: the NDP won Stikine, so did gain an interior seat.

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