I can't help but feel betrayed by those who usually vote NDP and instead voted Liberal.

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takeitslowly
I can't help but feel betrayed by those who usually vote NDP and instead voted Liberal.

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takeitslowly

It only takes a few minutes to find out the harper cons wont win even a minority according to all the polls. Its not rocket science. If an NDP incumbant is in your riding, voting liberal to stop harper is completely illogical. Theres no exucse we dont even have one single ndp mp in toronto. I believe its a betrayal.

 

I am talking about only people said they will vote NDP this election and didnt in the last minute.

quizzical

who's to know if Ontario is undergoing karma or not?

takeitslowly

well at least the blue jay is losing.  i have a hard time with my "usually ndp voters" friends who voted liberal even though i posted a thousand comments telling them harper is not going to win a majority  or even a minority.and you dont have to stop harper.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Think it's bad now?  Wait until 2019 and those same friends get themselves whooped up into a frenzy over the need to "STOP Trudeau!!!!" and vote Conservative.

That's politics now.  We've stopped voting FOR the government we want, and learned to vote AGAINST the government we don't.

takeitslowly

i mean trudeau broke his promises, his co chair resigned and lied throughout the entire campaign before he was even elected with a majority, how are we supposed to have faith in this public keeping the pressure on trudeau now that he is elected with a majority?

Debater

The Co-Chair resignation was a trumped up scandal that doesn't mean anything.

Dan Gagnier is an idiot and has never been the brightest bulb.  He was never really even the Co-Chair.  He wrote an inappropriate e-mail.

But it was very telling that many NDPers tried to excuse the fact that scumbag Brad Lavigne was a registered OIL LOBBYIST until just 3 weeks ago!

And yet he was allowed to be Tom Mulcair's Senior Adviser during this campaign!

mark_alfred

Yeesh.  Latte-right-wingers are still trolling this place even after their party won.

takeitslowly

can we please ignore all the liberals? are you guys with me on this? i have no interest in what they have to say

Pondering

takeitslowly wrote:

i mean trudeau broke his promises, his co chair resigned and lied throughout the entire campaign before he was even elected with a majority, how are we supposed to have faith in this public keeping the pressure on trudeau now that he is elected with a majority?

They won't. Most people only pay attention to politics in the last few weeks of a campaign right before voting. Look at all the stuff Harper pulled and yet he got his majority. That he was a nasty guy was broadly known. That he stuffed the senate, screwed over veterans, and silenced scientists is well know. He still won 99 seats. He kept his reputation as an excellent economist.

Debater

mark_alfred wrote:

Yeesh.  Latte-right-wingers are still trolling this place even after their party won.

When you refer to Liberal-NDP voters like myself as "Latte-right-wingers" and "trolls" you can see why the NDP lost so much support last night.

The Liberals moved too far to the right earlier this year.  When I quit my Liberal riding association, I complained in a letter to Gerald Butts that I disagreed with the Libs over C-51 and also for bringing in Conservative MP Eve Adams just to try and appeal to Red Tories at the expense of what NDP voters wanted to see from the Liberals.

However, Justin Trudeau & Gerald Butts realized over the Summer that they needed to adopt a more progressive economic platform, and they did just that.  Meanwhile, it was Mulcair & the NDP that fell into the trap that Trudeau had earlier in the year -- moving to the right to try and appeal to Conservatives.  Selling out core principles cost Mulcair support, just the way it had to Trudeau earlier in the year.

Both the Liberals & NDP need to realize that their bases will not put up with the selling out of principles for power the way the Conservative base would.  Harper could murder Robert Fife and be caught burying his body in the backyard, and Conservatives would still excuse it.

Liberal & NDP leaders don't have that luxary.  They have to stay true to their progressive values.  And both Trudeau & Mulcair forgot that at different times this year.

Cody87

takeitslowly wrote:

i mean trudeau broke his promises

That's a bit premature, he's not even Prime Minister yet.

Cody87

takeitslowly wrote:

I can't help but feel betrayed by those who usually vote NDP and instead voted Liberal.

Isn't the usual NDP vote share around 20%? So really, the NDP got the usual amount. Do you mean you can't help but feel betrayed by those who voted for Jack Layton four years ago (like me) but voted for Trudeau this time (like me)?

takeitslowly

yawn.  anyways i found it unforgivable that peggy nash lost. I dont know whats happening but it seems the ndp doesnt have a base. its very sad.

takeitslowly

and andrew cash lost too..its crazy. the whole city is bleeding red and its not about stopping harper. its about destroying the ndp. i feel very betrayed by the so called ndp voters and bascially all the so called progressive. it seems they dont really exist

Debater

takeitslowly wrote:

yawn.  anyways i found it unforgivable that peggy nash lost. I dont know whats happening but it seems the ndp doesnt have a base. its very sad.

It wasn't that surprising that Nash lost.

Nash does not have the personal popularity of a Bill Casey (Cumberland-Colchester) who can win under any circumstances, whether as an Independent or a Liberal.

Nash has lost twice before, once in 2004 to Sam Bulte, and again in 2008 to Gerard Kennedy.

Nash depends on provincial trends to lift her boat, as do many other MP's from all parties.

Unless you are a Bill Casey (who got elected in 2008 as an Independent with nearly 70% of the vote), you tend to be affected by provincial trends.  And Nash has only been able to win in good years for the NDP.

takeitslowly

definitely not my not my city..the people live here dont share my values except a small minority..i thought downtown would be better at least..it turns out i was wrong completely.or at least the people in power definitely do not share my values...what a sad day..what a sad realization ..i was really upset and crying..its too much.  and sadly speaking, it seems the entire country doesnt share my values..

Pondering

Cody87 wrote:

takeitslowly wrote:

I can't help but feel betrayed by those who usually vote NDP and instead voted Liberal.

Isn't the usual NDP vote share around 20%? So really, the NDP got the usual amount. Do you mean you can't help but feel betrayed by those who voted for Jack Layton four years ago (like me) but voted for Trudeau this time (like me)?

Yes, and that includes me as well. I was part of the orange crush but switched to the Trudeau Liberals for this election for specific reasons.

I will be very disappointed in the NDP if they don't regroup and start focusing on what is important to people's lives and rebuilding for the long term.

Pondering

takeitslowly wrote:

and andrew cash lost too..its crazy. the whole city is bleeding red and its not about stopping harper. its about destroying the ndp. i feel very betrayed by the so called ndp voters and bascially all the so called progressive. it seems they dont really exist

Maybe they feel betrayed by the NDP. I know I do.

Cody87

takeitslowly wrote:

definitely not my not my city..the people live here dont share my values except a small minority..i thought downtown would be better at least..it turns out i was wrong completely.or at least the people in power definitely do not share my values...what a sad day..what a sad realization ..i was really upset and crying..its too much.  and sadly speaking, it seems the entire country doesnt share my values..

What are your values, and how did the NDP exemplify your values this election?

takeitslowly

so yeah. thats how i feel.  i am going to really have to ponder what i should do in the next four year and rethink everything about this city and this country. i definitely feel even more of an outsider than usual. as if being trans isnt enough. maybe politics is a waste of time maybe the way of life is to get as much power and greed as possible.

Misfit Misfit's picture

TIS, the NDP has 44 seats. That is something to appreciate. We lost some very good talent last night, and it is really hard to see them go. During every election, the NDP has a consistent core of 18-20%. These are your true and genuine NDPers who are there no matter what, and we showed up again last night. We are always there and we are guided by our principles. Most people, unfortunately only want to vote for a winner. They are fickle people who don't always follow the issues closely and only want to vote for the incoming government. These are not reliable people, and one cannot place any high expectations on them without feeling let down. They also never seem to learn from their mistakes either.

takeitslowly

i really do love my ndp people, i know there are nice people who are liberals. but it just break my heart that we were treated so badly last night after all the hours we put in..being rejected, turned away...and i even got dirty look while i was pulling out the vote last night as if i am a criminal...the other two parites lied and bullied their way into power and the people backed them with absolute power ..this country isnt every kind. its hearthreaking

takeitslowly

i cried in 2011 when harper got a majority and i cried again this time, it feels the same, the pain.

Cody87

What you said:

Misfit wrote:
They are fickle people who don't always follow the issues closely and only want to vote for the incoming government. These are not reliable people, and one cannot place any high expectations on them without feeling let down. They also never seem to learn from their mistakes either.

What it comes across as:

Quote:
Clearly, 80% of the population is stupid, misinformed, low-information voters. Otherwise they would of course support the party I support no matter how unethical my party's campaign was.

Cody87

takeitslowly wrote:
the other two parites lied and bullied their way into power

This is a new one. I have not heard anyone call Trudeau a bully yet. Tell me more.

Debater

takeitslowly wrote:

i cried in 2011 when harper got a majority and i cried again this time, it feels the same, the pain.

Were there no tears of joy?

As Chantal Hebert said last night, many NDP voters would have preferred a better result last night, but they were still out celebrating that Harper had been taken down.

Aren't you glad that Trudeau took Harper down?  If it wasn't for Trudeau, Harper would be back in with another win.

Michael Harris, who is a strong union supporter and who is a regular guest an union speaker events and who wrote the book "Party Of One" about Harper, said he was very happy last night to see Harper go down.

He doesn't agree with Trudeau & the Liberals on everything, but he knew that goal #1 was to take down Harper.

Even the New York Times in the US and The Guardian in the UK have made it clear that they are happy to see the end of Harper.

takeitslowly

please dont turn my thread into about the liberals. i dont give a fuck about them. please dont respond to them, my friends.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

I guess this is politics now.  Everyone high-five your friends and neighbours for the government we DIDN'T get.

Jacob Two-Two

Sad, isn't it? Sadder still that some can be happy about it. Like Rick Mercer said recently, the notion of nation building is totally lost. Nowadays every election is nothing but a "save the furniture" panic. It's basically admitting that we are no longer in control of our country, when all we're trying to do over and over is preserve some small measure of rational governance, never move forward. I am more disheartened by this election than I have ever been before. I have serious doubts if Canada's democracy can survive the track this puts us on. C-51 will stay law. TPP will go ahead full steam, the NDP's objections once again reduced to irrelevence. Meanwhile Justin will shake a lot of hands and everyone will love him, and he will love being loved, and even the most critical people will be saying, "at least he's not Harper". All eyes will be on the schmoozefest while Canada burns behind the scenes.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

I suggested a while back -- facetiously, but not without a grain of truth -- that perhaps we should just switch to "negative voting".  Instead of voting for who you want, vote *against* who you don't.  Whatever candidate gets the fewest number of "fuck no's" wins.  Why not follow through on what we've already started?

mark_alfred

Jacob Two-Two wrote:

Sad, isn't it? Sadder still that some can be happy about it. Like Rick Mercer said recently, the notion of nation building is totally lost. Nowadays every election is nothing but a "save the furniture" panic. It's basically admitting that we are no longer in control of our country, when all we're trying to do over and over is preserve some small measure of rational governance, never move forward. I am more disheartened by this election than I have ever been before. I have serious doubts if Canada's democracy can survive the track this puts us on. C-51 will stay law. TPP will go ahead full steam, the NDP's objections once again reduced to irrelevence. Meanwhile Justin will shake a lot of hands and everyone will love him, and he will love being loved, and even the most critical people will be saying, "at least he's not Harper". All eyes will be on the schmoozefest while Canada burns behind the scenes.

Yeah, it's sad.  The myth of helplessness that some (primarily the Liberal trolls here) perpetuate is interesting.  IE, nothing can be done by Canada about TPP, only the States has the power.  Or, abolishing the Senate is impossible.  Or, it's impossible to have universal programs like child care -- only perhaps increasing funding to provinces and their individual programs is possible.  Or, it's impossible to have national standards for climate change, it's up to the feds to negotiate with the provinces.  They've really bought into Joe Clark's "head waiter to the provinces" meme and into the whole idea of manifest destiny.  Sad, really.  Contrary to Layton's statement, the central meme of Liberal trolls is, "we tell you it is impossible."

takeitslowly

i think harper won by taking the NDP down with him.

 

harper and libs effectively destroyed the hope that we can have real chagne.

jjuares

mark_alfred wrote:

Jacob Two-Two wrote:

Sad, isn't it? Sadder still that some can be happy about it. Like Rick Mercer said recently, the notion of nation building is totally lost. Nowadays every election is nothing but a "save the furniture" panic. It's basically admitting that we are no longer in control of our country, when all we're trying to do over and over is preserve some small measure of rational governance, never move forward. I am more disheartened by this election than I have ever been before. I have serious doubts if Canada's democracy can survive the track this puts us on. C-51 will stay law. TPP will go ahead full steam, the NDP's objections once again reduced to irrelevence. Meanwhile Justin will shake a lot of hands and everyone will love him, and he will love being loved, and even the most critical people will be saying, "at least he's not Harper". All eyes will be on the schmoozefest while Canada burns behind the scenes.

Yeah, it's sad.  The myth of helplessness that some (primarily the Liberal trolls here) perpetuate is interesting.  IE, nothing can be done by Canada about TPP, only the States has the power.  Or, abolishing the Senate is impossible.  Or, it's impossible to have universal programs like child care -- only perhaps increasing funding to provinces and their individual programs is possible.  Or, it's impossible to have national standards for climate change, it's up to the feds to negotiate with the provinces.  They've really bought into Joe Clark's "head waiter to the provinces" meme and into the whole idea of manifest destiny.  Sad, really.  Contrary to Layton's statement, the central meme of Liberal trolls is, "we tell you it is impossible."


The TPP is a good case in point. Most of the trade we have with the TPP countries is marked by low or no tarriffs. I doubt if we could renegotiate it ( although we could try) but we certainly could walk away from it with no serious consequenvces.m

6079_Smith_W

It isn't your vote or anyone else's but theirs. Do you also feel betrayed by those who didn't vote?

I don't. It isn't anyone's business or concern.

 

mark_alfred

takeitslowly wrote:

i think harper won by taking the NDP down with him.

 

harper and libs effectively destroyed the hope that we can have real chagne.

Harper took one for the team* to ensure the NDP didn't hold too much influence in a new Liberal government (IE, that a minority would not happen), via niqab, Ford, etc.

______

*multinational corporations

jjuares

mark_alfred wrote:

Jacob Two-Two wrote:

Sad, isn't it? Sadder still that some can be happy about it. Like Rick Mercer said recently, the notion of nation building is totally lost. Nowadays every election is nothing but a "save the furniture" panic. It's basically admitting that we are no longer in control of our country, when all we're trying to do over and over is preserve some small measure of rational governance, never move forward. I am more disheartened by this election than I have ever been before. I have serious doubts if Canada's democracy can survive the track this puts us on. C-51 will stay law. TPP will go ahead full steam, the NDP's objections once again reduced to irrelevence. Meanwhile Justin will shake a lot of hands and everyone will love him, and he will love being loved, and even the most critical people will be saying, "at least he's not Harper". All eyes will be on the schmoozefest while Canada burns behind the scenes.

Yeah, it's sad.  The myth of helplessness that some (primarily the Liberal trolls here) perpetuate is interesting.  IE, nothing can be done by Canada about TPP, only the States has the power.  Or, abolishing the Senate is impossible.  Or, it's impossible to have universal programs like child care -- only perhaps increasing funding to provinces and their individual programs is possible.  Or, it's impossible to have national standards for climate change, it's up to the feds to negotiate with the provinces.  They've really bought into Joe Clark's "head waiter to the provinces" meme and into the whole idea of manifest destiny.  Sad, really.  Contrary to Layton's statement, the central meme of Liberal trolls is, "we tell you it is impossible."


Yeah, good points. Strategic voting will never move this country ahead in any meaningful sense.

mark_alfred

jjuares wrote:
mark_alfred wrote:

Jacob Two-Two wrote:

Sad, isn't it? Sadder still that some can be happy about it. Like Rick Mercer said recently, the notion of nation building is totally lost. Nowadays every election is nothing but a "save the furniture" panic. It's basically admitting that we are no longer in control of our country, when all we're trying to do over and over is preserve some small measure of rational governance, never move forward. I am more disheartened by this election than I have ever been before. I have serious doubts if Canada's democracy can survive the track this puts us on. C-51 will stay law. TPP will go ahead full steam, the NDP's objections once again reduced to irrelevence. Meanwhile Justin will shake a lot of hands and everyone will love him, and he will love being loved, and even the most critical people will be saying, "at least he's not Harper". All eyes will be on the schmoozefest while Canada burns behind the scenes.

Yeah, it's sad.  The myth of helplessness that some (primarily the Liberal trolls here) perpetuate is interesting.  IE, nothing can be done by Canada about TPP, only the States has the power.  Or, abolishing the Senate is impossible.  Or, it's impossible to have universal programs like child care -- only perhaps increasing funding to provinces and their individual programs is possible.  Or, it's impossible to have national standards for climate change, it's up to the feds to negotiate with the provinces.  They've really bought into Joe Clark's "head waiter to the provinces" meme and into the whole idea of manifest destiny.  Sad, really.  Contrary to Layton's statement, the central meme of Liberal trolls is, "we tell you it is impossible."

The TPP is a good case in point. Most of the trade we have with the TPP countries is marked by low or no tarriffs. I doubt if we could renegotiate it ( although we could try) but we certainly could walk away from it with no serious consequenvces.m

For sure.  The idea that only the States can stop it, and if we don't sign on we'll be screwed, is ridiculous.  It's primarily the States, and we already have an agreement with them, and Japan (the other countries are quite small fry, from what I gather).  If we walk away from it, we could some time down the road negotiate something with Japan.  Or not.  Japan right now says they're not open to renegotiate.  Fine, then.  Would that still be the case if they saw we're serious about either renegotiate or no deal?  I dunno.  But if it would be the case, then screw 'em.  The idea of Liberals supporters here that it's impossible for Canada to draw a line in the sand in negotiations is sad, IMO.

takeitslowly

Very few prime minister lasts more than 10 years and I think Harper won big because he took down his only real opponent

Northern PoV

I actually skipped this morose-sounding thread.

then saw this on twitter, reposted here to cheer you folks up and reject the silly premise of the title....

poli_nerd ‏@poli_nerd 

"interesting, seeing examples where the NDP vote didn't collapse, just LPC pulled in lots of new votes from increased voter turnout #elxn42"

takeitslowly

Just can't believe a younger Harper won again but at least he will give us basic human rights if we are good

I guess I can't feel too bad for losing what I never had

Pondering

I don't know anyone here that is happy about TPP. Maybe you are right and we could walk away with little or no pain, but the NDP didn't present that argument.

I really get the feeling that the left doesn't really accept democracy and the need for policy to have social licence not just pipelines.

The majority of Quebecers and Canadians don't accept 50%+1 as a sufficient threshold for "independence".  It doesn't matter. The left has decided it's the proper position to take so end of conversation. It's a deal breaker. If you don't agree you aren't progressive or leftist or you need to be enlightened.

I bet if asked the majority of people support TPP and CETA or believe the decision belongs in the hands of experts/the government.

So far the majority of Canadians have not expressed a desire to change the FPTP system much less chosen MMP. 

Significant policies that do not have majority public support shouldn't be imposed on people or written in the "fine print". 

 

mark_alfred

Pondering wrote:

I don't know anyone here that is happy about TPP.

Well, then during the Liberal government's "full and open public debate" on the TPP, people should let the Liberal government know this.  And the government should properly respond to people's concerns.  Note:  contrary to the beliefs of some, IMO a proper response would not be:  "because this is Canada and not the USA, we really have no power to do anything about this deal."

Debater

mark_alfred wrote:

takeitslowly wrote:

i think harper won by taking the NDP down with him.

 

harper and libs effectively destroyed the hope that we can have real chagne.

Harper took one for the team* to ensure the NDP didn't hold too much influence in a new Liberal government (IE, that a minority would not happen), via niqab, Ford, etc.

______

*multinational corporations

The party that Harper has been trying to destroy is the Liberals -- not the NDP.

That has been very well-documented by everyone from former Harper mentor Tom Flanagan to Paul Wells of Maclean's.

Harper's pathological hatred of Pierre Trudeau has been his driviing motivation.  He most certainly did not try to take the NDP down.  Everyone knows that Harper wanted the NDP support to stay high because that would have allowed him to get re-elected.

Now, it's true that Harper went too far in the negativity and polarization and ended up bringing both the Conservatives & the NDP down in this election, but that was not his intention.

Debater

takeitslowly wrote:
Very few prime minister lasts more than 10 years and I think Harper won big because he took down his only real opponent

Harper's only real opponent was Justin Trudeau.

Everyone knows that.

Why do you think Harper launched millions of dollars of attack ads against Justin Trudeau and not Mulcair?

Not hard to figure out who was the biggest threat from April 2013 to October 2015.

miv

takeitslowly wrote:

the whole city is bleeding red and its not about stopping harper. its about destroying the ndp. i feel very betrayed by the so called ndp voters and bascially all the so called progressive. it seems they dont really exist

Pretty sure it's about people so disconnected from any focused critical appreciation of the polical process that they just 'voted for Trudeau' because 'he has the best chance of getting rid of Harper'.  I'd guess that roughly half the people who voted Liberal in what were, till yesterday, NDP-held ridings don't even know that their MP has changed.

Still, credit to them for wanting to get rid of Harper. 

 

Debater

Justin Trudeau took the political high road, and voters followed

Tim Harper

http://www.thestar.com/news/federal-election/2015/10/20/justin-trudeau-t...

Northern PoV

"Don't let the sun catch you cryin'" More cheerful analysis.... I ripped this from Dawg's comments , Buck O'Grewal

"I was sorry to see Dewar go down to defeat, Dawg. But it's not clear to me that his defeat is due to misguided strategic voting. The recent electoral history in Ottawa Centre:

— 2006: Dewar 37%, Lib 29%, Con 23%
— 2008: Dewar 40%, Lib 26%, Con 24%
— 2011: Dewar 52%, Lib 20%, Con 22%
— 2015: Dewar 38.5%, Lib 42.5%, Con 14.5%
This looks to me like the voters who had supported Dewar for the first time in 2011 didn't return in 2015. Couldn't these be 'soft-Liberals' who strategically joined the Orange crush in 2011 and returned 'home' for the Red Tide of 2015? That by itself should have been survivable by Dewar. But added to that was what looks like a defection of soft-Conservatives to the Liberals, adding c. 7.5% to their total. Finally, it looks like in Ottawa like elsewhere the participation rate was up, and that this group (who were non-voters in 2011) broke disproportionately towards the Liberals.

I suspect the same story is behind most of the defeated NDP in Atlantic Canada. The collapsing of the Conservative vote mostly benefitted Liberal candidates."

 

Debater

LAWRENCE MARTIN

Tuesday, Oct. 20, 2015

The re-engineering of Canada is finally over

With the election Monday, the bold right-wing experiment ends and the traditional Canada – a Canada of moderate big-tent governance – is reborn.

The country moved from a Trudeau to a Trudeauphobe and, with this election, back to a Trudeau again. If you go by the number of progressives in Canada, it means that two-thirds of the population get their idea of the country back.

The Trudeauphobe, Stephen Harper, made some big strides in shifting the culture away from its moderate values. He moved the policy yardsticks rightward on foreign policy, on criminal justice, on taxation, the environment, civil liberties and in other domains. No other conservative prime minister had pushed that far. None had Mr. Harper’s driving desire to re-engineer the political culture.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/the-re-engineering-of-canada...

terrytowel

Don Desserud, a political science professor at the University of Prince Edward Island, said he believes Atlantic Canadians cast their ballots strategically to bolster the Liberals' chances of forming government and defeating the Conservatives.

"People who did not want the Conservatives to win were looking at the NDP as serious contenders," he said from Cornwall, P.E.I.

"When that stopped being as obvious a factor nationally ... that picked up the support for the Liberals and then you see this massive move in that direction."

Desserud said incumbents like Megan Leslie, a well-liked MP both in Halifax and at the national level, shouldn't take the loss too personally.

"Everybody seems to like her," said Desserud. "I have to assume it has nothing to do with her. It's just basically people saying, 'We need to be absolutely sure that the Conservatives lose and this is the only way we can do it.' "

http://www.hamiltonnews.com/news-story/5967813-landslide-liberal-victory...

Brachina

 People aren't logical creates and the truth is we made alot of mistakes and basic human stupidity did the rest. It doesn't mean most people in TO don't share your values, or hate the NDP, it means that they made a bad choice for a variety of reasons. The NDP had a bad campaign and then at the last moment voters moved by thier emotions to get rid of Harper. I actually knew that who ever was the leading ABC party was going to get a huge bounce once people started paying attention. Had the NDP had a good campaign and maintained it lead, even a slim lead, the ABC vote would have swarmed towards the NDP giving them a bounce and a majority government.

 So when NDPers just say well it happened because of the ABC vote, it was nothing we did, they forget that we were in the position to channel the ABC vote, look at the polls including second choices in August, we could have taken the ABC vote and possibly have swept Toronto the way the Liberals did, but mistakes were made and we can't afford to ignore that.

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